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300WHP Supernatural 3.XX Coming Soon! by La fiera
Started on: 01-01-2018 09:47 PM
Replies: 297 (8544 views)
Last post by: La fiera on 11-27-2020 07:12 PM
La fiera
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Report this Post04-21-2019 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thedrue, I owe you an apology. You were right about me being way off on the weights of the lifters. The weights mentioned
earlier are for LS lifters.
So, to be more precise I went to the local auto parts store and weighted one to compare.


60 Degree roller lifter .842


.904 Solid lifter (couldn't find a .842 to weight)
9
So, I still save over 1/2 pound, 11 ounces to be exact.

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La fiera
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Report this Post04-21-2019 02:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Would a *MECHANICAL* LS roller lifter work?
There are a LOT of those on the market, including ones with the roller riding on pressurized oil instead of needle bearings, making them immune to bearing failure with stiff springs and high ramp rates.


The best ones I've found are 118g and 119g for $600 a set. Still too heavy.
If I replace the ones I have now for a set of these I found I'll be addin almost one pound! 15.24oz to be precise.
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La fiera
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Report this Post04-21-2019 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thedrue:

Although flat tappets have been very successful they just take much more care to not screw up the cam.



I use the best oil for breaking it in and then I use triple esther real synthetic oil after.

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Report this Post04-21-2019 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Thedrue, I owe you an apology. You were right about me being way off on the weights of the lifters. The weights mentioned
earlier are for LS lifters.
So, to be more precise I went to the local auto parts store and weighted one to compare.


60 Degree roller lifter .842


[URL=https://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/section/camshafts-valvetrain/part-type/lifters/lifter-style/mechanical-roller/lifter-outside-diameter-in/0-842-in?N=4294949512%2B4294943569%2B4294925202%2B4294887765%2B4294889038&PageSi ze=100&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending] Summit's entire selection of 0.842 diameter mechanical rollers... [/URL]

ETA: Oh jeez. How is PFF so incompetent when dealing with links?

Try this: https://bit.ly/2Zp5Wqi

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-21-2019).]

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Report this Post04-22-2019 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thedrueSend a Private Message to thedrueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That makes more sense! It is a weight penalty for sure, just not nearly as bad.

The v8 lifters may be able to be made to work and would open up so many options for performance parts but there are definitely some issues. The first is the 60degree alignment plates would have to be shimmed or extended to accommodate the taller lifter. That would probably cause interference with the intake and I don't think that is a good option. The other idea I had was to use the cross bar lifters, but the 60degree has closer lifter spacing so they would have to be custom for the v6. I'm still not sure there is enough room for that though.

Such is the life of those of us still hotrodding the 60degree architecture. Have to get really creative since there are very few performance options out there!
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La fiera
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Report this Post04-23-2019 10:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes Thedrew, I'll stick with the good ol' solid flat tappet. It has always worked for me.
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La fiera
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Report this Post04-28-2019 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I just switched to E85 and I'm still tuning but I picked up 7rwhp and 8 or 9 ft*lbs... If you don't care about fuel economy and just want even more power, I recommend it.


I'm looking into it now. I have to drive 50 miles to get e85. The one thing I don't like about pump e85 is that is never the same.
I think in my case I'll get it by the 5gal pail at my raceshop store. It's always 85% guaranteed and has other enhancers also.
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Report this Post04-29-2019 08:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm lucky that there's a pump that sells it about 15 minutes away in the same town as the track.
Does your ECU support a fuel sensor? That could solve that issue with the variation in fuel...
Me, I'm just hoping that pump is consistent.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 04-29-2019).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post04-29-2019 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe you upped your injector's size? What's your AFR's now?

I ordered a set of injectors to do the E85 switch
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Report this Post04-29-2019 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
I believe you upped your injector's size? What's your AFR's now?
I ordered a set of injectors to do the E85 switch

Since I was using Ford injectors to begin with, they still flowed enough for me to run too rich.
I was lean increasing the BPW by 35% as a base. Settled close to 40% BPW increase overall.

I think my BPW is ~ 82ms ... Didn't have to change anything much other than that.
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Report this Post04-29-2019 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StreetRod4Send a Private Message to StreetRod4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe Crower still sells solid rollers for the 60v6
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La fiera
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Report this Post04-29-2019 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by StreetRod4:

I believe Crower still sells solid rollers for the 60v6


Yes, I called them a year ago. For only $500 they can make me a set of roller lifters.
For that kind of money I can get custom lighter parts for the valvetrain.

But since you brought the roller vs flat tappet cam wars back I'm going to give an example.

This is Upson's custom roller cam for his monster twin turbo 3900 motor.
His cam is a baby compared to my flat tapped solid.
My 370 GTO cam has more lift (.497 vs .550), more duration @ .050 (216 vs 244)
and way more area under the curve (faster ramps)! I'll let you guys figure that one out.
Overall, my cam is more responsive, revs faster, deliver the power instantly without lag and
without relying on altered atmospheres, all naturally aspirated.

I'm not saying I have more power than Upson's monster. I'm saying mine delivers the power way faster
without boost. Can't wait to see what kind of power Mr. Upson gets!

I'm pretty sure that Upson's or any cam that WOT-Tech sell does not have more area under the curve or
have faster and aggressive ramps than my 370 GTO solid flat tapped.
Like I said before, lobe technology has come a long way from the bootlegger days!
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Will
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Report this Post05-24-2019 09:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When are you going to start the 350 WHP 3900 aluminum head build thread?
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La fiera
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Report this Post05-24-2019 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

When are you going to start the 350 WHP 3900 aluminum head build thread?


I might hit that goal with this engine!

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Will
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Report this Post05-26-2019 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That would be fun
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Report this Post05-30-2019 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And then you could go for 400 with an aluminum head engine.
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Report this Post05-30-2019 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
And then you could go for 400 with an aluminum head engine.

The troll keeps a rollin' all night long... Isn't that a song?

So funny how people were hating on my dynos back then compared it to engines using E85 and other things not mentioned then called it apples to apples... Haters will continue to hate... If I actually put my "light" wheels back on and went to the dyno, more fragile aluminum egos would break and we can't be having that on the interwebs…

I supposed if I wanted to be a troll, I could go into every 3X00 thread and say something like "If you don't want head and intake gasket issues just switch to IRON HEADS!!!!!" … but I like to leave the trolling to actual trolls...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-30-2019).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-30-2019 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pull your head out Lou.

I never said it couldn't be done, just the stated goal could be reached more easily with aluminum heads. The corollary is that the same effort into aluminum heads will yield a higher number.
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Report this Post05-30-2019 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Stop pretending. You intentionally upped the hp # when mentioning AL heads. You're not fooling anyone.
It's a back-handed way of saying whatever iron heads can do, al heads can do more. Well, why don't you build a 400hp AL head engine in your own thread and let him build the engine he wants, troll.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-30-2019).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-30-2019 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Stop pretending. You intentionally upped the hp # when mentioning AL heads. You're not fooling anyone.
It's a back-handed way of saying whatever iron heads can do, al heads can do more. Well, why don't you build a 400hp AL head engine in your own thread and let him build the engine he wants, troll.



It's not back handed at all. I am saying EXACTLY THAT. Whatever iron heads can do, aluminum heads can do more with the same effort. Period. There is no serious debate about this.
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Report this Post05-30-2019 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am glad you finally admitted to trolling.
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Report this Post05-30-2019 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
LOL.
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La fiera
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Report this Post05-31-2019 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


It's not back handed at all. I am saying EXACTLY THAT. Whatever iron heads can do, aluminum heads can do more with the same effort. Period. There is no serious debate about this.

https://youtu.be/DxewiTeUMlk

Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree.
This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech
and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam
I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me.
Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's.
He blames the dyno numbers on the tune!
CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers.
Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!



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Report this Post05-31-2019 08:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

https://youtu.be/DxewiTeUMlk

Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree.
This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech
and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam
I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me.
Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's.
He blames the dyno numbers on the tune!
CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers.
Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!

Ignore the extra displacement and probably use of E85 and dynojet dyno... and for the love of god: stop feeding the troll!
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Report this Post05-31-2019 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

https://youtu.be/DxewiTeUMlk

Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree.
This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech
and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam
I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me.
Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's.
He blames the dyno numbers on the tune!
CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers.
Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!



That's why I asked you when you're going to build one

That video was also almost 8 years ago... Just like people do better over time with the iron heads, people are doing better over time with aluminum heads as well.
Also, that's through a 700 trans with 3500 stall and a 10 bolt rear. All that equipment chews up a lot more power than the Fiero manual transmission and your 15 inch wheels. His driveline loss might be 20%, while yours could be 10%. That difference alone is 25 hp. Not sure why he'd post the *UN*tuned dyno numbers, but whatev. YouTube is a strange place.

Being a 3500, those are the Gen IV aluminum heads. The 3900's have the even better Gen V heads and 99mm bore to free up CFM.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

The cam on this engine is .550 on the intake.


The video says his cam is 0.539 lift... Is his bigger or not?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-31-2019).]

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Report this Post05-31-2019 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh now we want to complain about wheels... His wheels look pretty stock (15") to me... Depending on the year they could be 14" or 15" aka light. Meanwhile you don't even know what wheels Rei is using.

Meanwhile turning 17x10 315/35R17 wheels and tires that weigh 52 lbs each that have a diameter about 1" larger than stock - I'm putting down 214 ft*lbs of torque thru a lowly FIREBIRD 2.8 intake turning axles (Cobalt SS) that are heavier than stock turning a much heavier than stock flywheel (because a 1" space is bolted to it)...but no trolls want to talk about that... Oh and my cam only has .480" of lift...

It's all just apples to apples until it doesn't help their case...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-31-2019).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post05-31-2019 12:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The video says his cam is 0.539 lift... Is his bigger or not?



The 3.4 cam lift is .533 and on the 3.7 is .550
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Report this Post06-14-2019 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Since the 250WHP Supernatural 340 GTO project has surpass my expectations and it may get to the 300WHP goal,
I decided to beef up the bottom end of this Supernatural 370 GTO.
So, I got me a set of stronger and lighter rods rods (532g VS 542g) to acomodate my desired power levels.
Next are the custom pistons, and that is where the gloves come off.
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Report this Post12-29-2019 12:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update! SinceI broke into the 300WHPwith the 3.4 the bar has been raised to 350WHP with iron heads.
Even though I've been working on the 3.4 I've also been working on the 3.7 silently.
I've upgraded the bottom end with lighter & stronger pistons and rods.
This bottom end is designed to improve the VE of the improved heads being developed.

Here's a picture of how much weight I've shaved from the rotating assembly.
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Report this Post12-29-2019 01:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Get-R-Done!
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La fiera
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Report this Post12-30-2019 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Valve angle job done with wider throat and shrouding to fit the 1.8int & 1.5exh valves and to get them ready for the porting job.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-26-2020).]

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Report this Post02-28-2020 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://youtu.be/WyAfEsldh94

Finally got my heads from the local machine shop.
New guides, valves fitted and unshrouded and springs seat machined for LS Beehive springs
Now they are off to the next stage, CNC porting. With the unshrouding they ended up at 51cc.
That translates to 11.58:1 static compression ratio with the gasket and torqued on the 3.7 block.
Once I check valve clearance I'll see if I have more room to bring the CR to 12.++:1!

Stay tuned!

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Report this Post02-29-2020 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
https://youtu.be/DxewiTeUMlk

Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree.
This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech
and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam
I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me.
Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's.
He blames the dyno numbers on the tune!
CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers.
Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!


The heads were not done by WOT-tech, Dave ported his own heads(and mine...). He also put a conventional manifold back on in place of the ITB's and picked up a not insignificant amount of power, I would have to find his thread to get the numbers or time slip for specifics.

As for the cam lift, I wouldn't disagree that .006" is more, but I think at that point it's kinda silly to even bring it up as an argument for either team...

As Will pointed out, his entire drivetrain is dramatically heavier, and less efficient than the transverse setup our fiero's run. the wheels are 16", but I don't think they are lighter than aftermarket 17's.

The same engine in his cavalier did 275 ish WHP(I'm not sure if he had the same cam or not), would be a more accurate comparison, as the drivetrain is much more similar in that case because the cavalier had a getrag 282.



All that being said, his engine is built with all stock casting that were ported, with the exception of the "ITB" setup(that he got rid of...) which was 6 throttles bolted to a ported, stock lower intake, no welding or other custom fabrication. the internals, with exception to the cam, and timing set, were also completely stock. from an investment standpoint, you have quite a bit more into your engine than he did.

this is just information, use it as you see fit.


------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-29-2020).]

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Report this Post02-29-2020 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

All that being said, his engine is built with all stock casting that were ported, with the exception of the "ITB" setup(that he got rid of...) which was 6 throttles bolted to a ported, stock lower intake, no welding or other custom fabrication. the internals, with exception to the cam, and timing set, were also completely stock. from an investment standpoint, you have quite a bit more into your engine than he did.

this is just information, use it as you see fit.



I've done the same to the 3.4, its all stock except: Intake, cam, ported IRON heads and DOHC pistons and headers, thats all.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-29-2020).]

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Report this Post02-29-2020 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Another thing, aluminum heads have 7mm valve stems and my iron heads have 11/32 (8.65mm) valve stems. Which means the iron heads
have a restriction compared to the aluminum heads. So I have a handicap compared to the alumum heads. I wonder if I install 7mm stem
valves for a fair comparison!
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Will
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Report this Post02-29-2020 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


I've done the same to the 3.4, its all stock except: Intake, cam, ported IRON heads and DOHC pistons and headers, thats all.



And a giant full stack custom fabbed sheetmetal intake manifold...
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ericjon262
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Report this Post02-29-2020 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


I've done the same to the 3.4, its all stock except: Intake, cam, ported IRON heads and DOHC pistons and headers, thats all.



he didn't even pull the pistons out of the block. I would guess that you probably have more time invested in your intake, than he did in his whole build. good luck with your goals, but I agree with Will that there are much easier ways to get there in the same platform.

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La fiera
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Report this Post02-29-2020 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


And a giant full stack custom fabbed sheetmetal intake manifold...


Yes! And with 2 blades instead of individual 6 and without a turbo

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La fiera
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Report this Post03-01-2020 12:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I would guess that you probably have more time invested in your intake, than he did in his whole build. good luck with your goals, but I agree with Will that there are much easier ways to get there in the same platform.



You guessed right Eric, I spent a lot of hours mathematically modeling the intake manifold and to come up with with valve timing to take advantage of the intake design to make those iron heads perform beyond their capabilities.
It's much more satisfying than going the easy way and just installing a turbo, anybody can do that.
Thank you for the good wishes, they are always welcome.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post03-02-2020 03:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
anonymous troll: it's all stock except everything...



oh the heads don't flow!

until they do flow...

so let's change the rules of the argument and blame the custom intake....

...same troll that takes a decade to do 1 swap...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-02-2020).]

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