Thedrue, I owe you an apology. You were right about me being way off on the weights of the lifters. The weights mentioned earlier are for LS lifters. So, to be more precise I went to the local auto parts store and weighted one to compare.
60 Degree roller lifter .842
.904 Solid lifter (couldn't find a .842 to weight) 9 So, I still save over 1/2 pound, 11 ounces to be exact.
Would a *MECHANICAL* LS roller lifter work? There are a LOT of those on the market, including ones with the roller riding on pressurized oil instead of needle bearings, making them immune to bearing failure with stiff springs and high ramp rates.
The best ones I've found are 118g and 119g for $600 a set. Still too heavy. If I replace the ones I have now for a set of these I found I'll be addin almost one pound! 15.24oz to be precise.
Thedrue, I owe you an apology. You were right about me being way off on the weights of the lifters. The weights mentioned earlier are for LS lifters. So, to be more precise I went to the local auto parts store and weighted one to compare.
That makes more sense! It is a weight penalty for sure, just not nearly as bad.
The v8 lifters may be able to be made to work and would open up so many options for performance parts but there are definitely some issues. The first is the 60degree alignment plates would have to be shimmed or extended to accommodate the taller lifter. That would probably cause interference with the intake and I don't think that is a good option. The other idea I had was to use the cross bar lifters, but the 60degree has closer lifter spacing so they would have to be custom for the v6. I'm still not sure there is enough room for that though.
Such is the life of those of us still hotrodding the 60degree architecture. Have to get really creative since there are very few performance options out there!
I just switched to E85 and I'm still tuning but I picked up 7rwhp and 8 or 9 ft*lbs... If you don't care about fuel economy and just want even more power, I recommend it.
I'm looking into it now. I have to drive 50 miles to get e85. The one thing I don't like about pump e85 is that is never the same. I think in my case I'll get it by the 5gal pail at my raceshop store. It's always 85% guaranteed and has other enhancers also.
I'm lucky that there's a pump that sells it about 15 minutes away in the same town as the track. Does your ECU support a fuel sensor? That could solve that issue with the variation in fuel... Me, I'm just hoping that pump is consistent.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 04-29-2019).]
Originally posted by La fiera: I believe you upped your injector's size? What's your AFR's now? I ordered a set of injectors to do the E85 switch
Since I was using Ford injectors to begin with, they still flowed enough for me to run too rich. I was lean increasing the BPW by 35% as a base. Settled close to 40% BPW increase overall.
I think my BPW is ~ 82ms ... Didn't have to change anything much other than that.
I believe Crower still sells solid rollers for the 60v6
Yes, I called them a year ago. For only $500 they can make me a set of roller lifters. For that kind of money I can get custom lighter parts for the valvetrain.
But since you brought the roller vs flat tappet cam wars back I'm going to give an example. This is Upson's custom roller cam for his monster twin turbo 3900 motor. His cam is a baby compared to my flat tapped solid. My 370 GTO cam has more lift (.497 vs .550), more duration @ .050 (216 vs 244) and way more area under the curve (faster ramps)! I'll let you guys figure that one out. Overall, my cam is more responsive, revs faster, deliver the power instantly without lag and without relying on altered atmospheres, all naturally aspirated.
I'm not saying I have more power than Upson's monster. I'm saying mine delivers the power way faster without boost. Can't wait to see what kind of power Mr. Upson gets!
I'm pretty sure that Upson's or any cam that WOT-Tech sell does not have more area under the curve or have faster and aggressive ramps than my 370 GTO solid flat tapped. Like I said before, lobe technology has come a long way from the bootlegger days!
Originally posted by Will: And then you could go for 400 with an aluminum head engine.
The troll keeps a rollin' all night long... Isn't that a song?
So funny how people were hating on my dynos back then compared it to engines using E85 and other things not mentioned then called it apples to apples... Haters will continue to hate... If I actually put my "light" wheels back on and went to the dyno, more fragile aluminum egos would break and we can't be having that on the interwebs…
I supposed if I wanted to be a troll, I could go into every 3X00 thread and say something like "If you don't want head and intake gasket issues just switch to IRON HEADS!!!!!" … but I like to leave the trolling to actual trolls...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-30-2019).]
I never said it couldn't be done, just the stated goal could be reached more easily with aluminum heads. The corollary is that the same effort into aluminum heads will yield a higher number.
Stop pretending. You intentionally upped the hp # when mentioning AL heads. You're not fooling anyone. It's a back-handed way of saying whatever iron heads can do, al heads can do more. Well, why don't you build a 400hp AL head engine in your own thread and let him build the engine he wants, troll.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-30-2019).]
Stop pretending. You intentionally upped the hp # when mentioning AL heads. You're not fooling anyone. It's a back-handed way of saying whatever iron heads can do, al heads can do more. Well, why don't you build a 400hp AL head engine in your own thread and let him build the engine he wants, troll.
It's not back handed at all. I am saying EXACTLY THAT. Whatever iron heads can do, aluminum heads can do more with the same effort. Period. There is no serious debate about this.
It's not back handed at all. I am saying EXACTLY THAT. Whatever iron heads can do, aluminum heads can do more with the same effort. Period. There is no serious debate about this.
Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree. This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me. Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's. He blames the dyno numbers on the tune! CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers. Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!
Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree. This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me. Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's. He blames the dyno numbers on the tune! CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers. Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!
Ignore the extra displacement and probably use of E85 and dynojet dyno... and for the love of god: stop feeding the troll!
Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree. This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me. Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's. He blames the dyno numbers on the tune! CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers. Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!
That's why I asked you when you're going to build one
That video was also almost 8 years ago... Just like people do better over time with the iron heads, people are doing better over time with aluminum heads as well. Also, that's through a 700 trans with 3500 stall and a 10 bolt rear. All that equipment chews up a lot more power than the Fiero manual transmission and your 15 inch wheels. His driveline loss might be 20%, while yours could be 10%. That difference alone is 25 hp. Not sure why he'd post the *UN*tuned dyno numbers, but whatev. YouTube is a strange place.
Being a 3500, those are the Gen IV aluminum heads. The 3900's have the even better Gen V heads and 99mm bore to free up CFM.
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
The cam on this engine is .550 on the intake.
The video says his cam is 0.539 lift... Is his bigger or not?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-31-2019).]
Oh now we want to complain about wheels... His wheels look pretty stock (15") to me... Depending on the year they could be 14" or 15" aka light. Meanwhile you don't even know what wheels Rei is using.
Meanwhile turning 17x10 315/35R17 wheels and tires that weigh 52 lbs each that have a diameter about 1" larger than stock - I'm putting down 214 ft*lbs of torque thru a lowly FIREBIRD 2.8 intake turning axles (Cobalt SS) that are heavier than stock turning a much heavier than stock flywheel (because a 1" space is bolted to it)...but no trolls want to talk about that... Oh and my cam only has .480" of lift...
It's all just apples to apples until it doesn't help their case...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-31-2019).]
Since the 250WHP Supernatural 340 GTO project has surpass my expectations and it may get to the 300WHP goal, I decided to beef up the bottom end of this Supernatural 370 GTO. So, I got me a set of stronger and lighter rods rods (532g VS 542g) to acomodate my desired power levels. Next are the custom pistons, and that is where the gloves come off.
Update! SinceI broke into the 300WHPwith the 3.4 the bar has been raised to 350WHP with iron heads. Even though I've been working on the 3.4 I've also been working on the 3.7 silently. I've upgraded the bottom end with lighter & stronger pistons and rods. This bottom end is designed to improve the VE of the improved heads being developed.
Here's a picture of how much weight I've shaved from the rotating assembly.
Finally got my heads from the local machine shop. New guides, valves fitted and unshrouded and springs seat machined for LS Beehive springs Now they are off to the next stage, CNC porting. With the unshrouding they ended up at 51cc. That translates to 11.58:1 static compression ratio with the gasket and torqued on the 3.7 block. Once I check valve clearance I'll see if I have more room to bring the CR to 12.++:1!
Will I'm sorry but have to dissagree. This guy has more cubes than me, Aluminum ported and polished heads done by WOT-Tech and a big cam also done by WOT-Tech with more lift than the cam I have on my 340GTO and he still can't touch me. Wait, did I mentioned he has ITB's. He blames the dyno numbers on the tune! CFM means nothing if you can't back it up with WHP dyno numbers. Not everyting is about head CFM's, the complete package makes the difference!
The heads were not done by WOT-tech, Dave ported his own heads(and mine...). He also put a conventional manifold back on in place of the ITB's and picked up a not insignificant amount of power, I would have to find his thread to get the numbers or time slip for specifics.
As for the cam lift, I wouldn't disagree that .006" is more, but I think at that point it's kinda silly to even bring it up as an argument for either team...
As Will pointed out, his entire drivetrain is dramatically heavier, and less efficient than the transverse setup our fiero's run. the wheels are 16", but I don't think they are lighter than aftermarket 17's.
The same engine in his cavalier did 275 ish WHP(I'm not sure if he had the same cam or not), would be a more accurate comparison, as the drivetrain is much more similar in that case because the cavalier had a getrag 282.
All that being said, his engine is built with all stock casting that were ported, with the exception of the "ITB" setup(that he got rid of...) which was 6 throttles bolted to a ported, stock lower intake, no welding or other custom fabrication. the internals, with exception to the cam, and timing set, were also completely stock. from an investment standpoint, you have quite a bit more into your engine than he did.
this is just information, use it as you see fit.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
All that being said, his engine is built with all stock casting that were ported, with the exception of the "ITB" setup(that he got rid of...) which was 6 throttles bolted to a ported, stock lower intake, no welding or other custom fabrication. the internals, with exception to the cam, and timing set, were also completely stock. from an investment standpoint, you have quite a bit more into your engine than he did.
this is just information, use it as you see fit.
I've done the same to the 3.4, its all stock except: Intake, cam, ported IRON heads and DOHC pistons and headers, thats all.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-29-2020).]
Another thing, aluminum heads have 7mm valve stems and my iron heads have 11/32 (8.65mm) valve stems. Which means the iron heads have a restriction compared to the aluminum heads. So I have a handicap compared to the alumum heads. I wonder if I install 7mm stem valves for a fair comparison!
I've done the same to the 3.4, its all stock except: Intake, cam, ported IRON heads and DOHC pistons and headers, thats all.
he didn't even pull the pistons out of the block. I would guess that you probably have more time invested in your intake, than he did in his whole build. good luck with your goals, but I agree with Will that there are much easier ways to get there in the same platform.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I would guess that you probably have more time invested in your intake, than he did in his whole build. good luck with your goals, but I agree with Will that there are much easier ways to get there in the same platform.
You guessed right Eric, I spent a lot of hours mathematically modeling the intake manifold and to come up with with valve timing to take advantage of the intake design to make those iron heads perform beyond their capabilities. It's much more satisfying than going the easy way and just installing a turbo, anybody can do that. Thank you for the good wishes, they are always welcome.
Get-R-Done!
