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Quad 4 swap (lot of pics) by sardonyx247
Started on: 06-19-2012 04:54 AM
Replies: 304 (22306 views)
Last post by: Quad Raider on 07-03-2017 09:06 PM
sardonyx247
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Report this Post06-26-2012 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

I like.
I wanted to do a quad 4 swap for a while but went another route instead... What did you use to polish the compustion chamber? And did you use those cutting bits in a dremel? I plan on a bunch of porting and polishing real soon and I need to buy bits for a dremel or an air grinder (I have both) And Im just not sure where to get them


This is the porting kit I got years ago, I forget where the aluminum cutting bit came from, the carbide bit was gotten at local tool-mart type place, they usally have them cheap(er) they work with a drill or air grinder.
I also used a bunch of small flap wheels, for the die grinder too.
I polished the combustion chamber with a small 120 grit flap wheel in a dremel, then finished with the cross buffs that come in the porting kit.

Air grinder works best, drill also works just goes slower, dremel is good for small/tight spaces, otherwise way too slow.

First get a porting kit it has most everything you need, if not everything.
Carbide bits take out metal fast, so only get one once you feel ok about grinding/porting. Practicing first on a junk head is always best.
The aluminum cutting bits cut aluminum very fast, only use when you know what you are doing.
Flap wheels are great for smoothing, and come in different grits.

Here is a Great guide on porting. http://65corvette.nonethewi...echnical/diyport.pdf

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sardonyx247
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On to more pics.


There is a check valve it the corner of the block, to keep oil from draining down so it has oil on start up.
Sometimes the ball can come out so make sure it is there.




The block.










The oil pump and windage tray.










The windage tray and oil pump bracket.




The oil pump.






How it lines up on the crank.




The crank and rods. 5 main caps and its only a 4 cyl. And 2 counter weights per piston.










The end plate cover, with rear main seal in it.






And where it goes.



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sardonyx247
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The pistons.








The pistons have floating pins, GM really put alot into this engine. The can be removed without a press, only a clip on each side holding in the pins. nice.










The pistons all weigh within a gram.




But one of the rods is 15 grams overweight from the other ones.
So I have some balancing to do.

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Report this Post06-27-2012 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I've been reading the crap out of the links you gave, and more. I'm officially excited about the Quad4 now, I hope you're happy!

You're not exactly shagging around, keep up the good work!

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post06-27-2012 07:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

I've been reading the crap out of the links you gave, and more. I'm officially excited about the Quad4 now, I hope you're happy!



I'm getting there, this swap is comming right along. The closer to being done the more excited I will get. Don't get me wrong I am having a ton of fun doing this swap.


I got the balancing done now, so now all the pistons, pins, rings, and rods together weigh within 1 gram of each other. I didn't feel like going down to 1/10 gram as there is prob that much oil or carbon left on one.


15 grams is alot to take off these rods, not alot of balancing pads on them. So after grinding and smoothing off the whole pad on the bottom,.......




I decided to polish the beam to get the last bit of weight off. It even makes the rod stronger too. I would polish the other rods, but one, not needed for the power I am going to run and two, it would make the other rods too light for me to be able to match this rod to them.




Now all good.




I tried to make a setup so I could balance each end of the rods, (I know a bit of overkill)
I tried many different setups and just could not get consistent readings, the static friction wouldn't let it happen. And after balancing the rods I see there is not really a balance pad on the small end so it would not have worked too well anyway. Here is one of the things I made to try, prob would work if I had a bearing on the big end. It did work to an extent but not good enough for me.



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sardonyx247
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When I pulled of the trans from quad no2, I found this carnage.






The trans seems to be ok, which is the good thing as I still need to figure out what trans I am going to use.

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sardonyx247
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What a great thing the Quad 4 comes with piston oil squirters stock. As you can see with the hole in the rod and bearing.
When the crank comes around it squirts oil up through the hole to the piston, GM did all the tech in this engine.








Always test the starter before you put one in.




I wanted to post some good pics of the mounts in case some one wanted to recreate it.
You (and I) can thank Fierobsessed for the mounts.


























The cutout for the trans.




The cutout for the A/C.



------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
Las Vegas Fiero Club Parts/Sales/Service/Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post06-28-2012 03:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice clutch!!!

The one that is on my old motor is practically new, its a stock replacement, nothing special.

I'm really surprised that ONE rod was so much heavier, was there any obvious reason? Like a visibly chunkier rod beam? The rods and pistons did all come out of the same H.O. engine. So something has to give.

Good job on the head, it looks like a winner.

I'll be in NY for the next week and a half, If I had a chance I'd be up at the shop, I wan't to see this come together. I kinda want to see WTF is up with that 3.94 transmission. I have a couple sets of good used synchros on hand. Maybe make one nice transmission? I also have those brackets I took when we pulled the swap. I MAY not need them in the future as I'm going F23 with the L67/32 and the F40 on the LQ1. Just seems like the right way to go these days if you want anything powerful to last you know?

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Report this Post06-28-2012 03:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Oh, and about that rear mount. That one has a little story...

Originally, I was trying to fit a rather large muffler between the cradle and the trunk wall. I made my clearance on the cradle, and it intruded on the rear transmission mount area. So I did that little piece of metal to hold that one funny looking mount. If I were to redo it, I'd probably have not clearanced the cradle, used a stock mount on the cradle, and a custom low profile mount on the transmission. That mount is way hard compared to the other two rather soft mounts. But it HAD to be ridgid to keep the transmission from smashing the cradle in that one spot. This setup is mounted as LOW as was physically possible, and still straight and level. And it just manages to clear the torsion spring and decklid. It is a tall engine!

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sardonyx247
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The one rod looks exactly like the others, but a half an ounce is a big differance.
I was planing on useing your clutch, cause it looks fine.
I will be going through all the trans I have to choose from to make a good one. The trans from the 2nd one seems like a good 3.94, I might go the 3.61 if it comes together right. For MPG.

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sardonyx247
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The factory specs says under 2 grams for all the rods in the same engine, so this one rod was way outa spec, now all are under 1 gram.
And yeah it is a TALL engine.

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sardonyx247
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Oh, and all the pistons were within a gram of each other, so it was the rod.

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Report this Post06-28-2012 04:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Best mileage, I'd say use a 3.61 Quad 4 getrag, and press on a Fiero's 5th gear. So you'll end up with the same gearing you are used to in 5th on your GT, and you can still sport the performance oriented gearing of the Quad 4 ratios 1st, 2nd and 4th. 3rd we all know is the same in all transmission.

As it is, the 3.94 box is still *Slightly* taller on 5th then a standard Quad 4's 3.61, it uses the Fiero's 5th gear. So at the very least, you can source the parts from that box if you want the Fiero's 5th. Plenty of options with those two style boxes. You already are fully aware of the advantages of the later differentials too. You can make a really nice transmission with what you've got on hand. One thing to keep in mind, is that the only way to get a shorter 3rd gear, is to use a 3.94 differential. That's the only reason I sprung for an SCX transmission in the first place. It's a shame the shifting was all messed up on that transmission. The gears were good though.

The gear side case on the 3.94 was very different to the older 3.61's it had a few parts fitment issues, The spots where the transmission cables are mounted, both shift and select had bolt bosses in the wrong spots. I would not use that case if you have the opportunity to swap them.

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sardonyx247
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Here is a good site explaining the differances between years of the Quad 4.
http://www.quad4forums.com/...owthread.php?t=19015

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Report this Post06-28-2012 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice work Dave!!

Sorry I sold the 3.4 4 speed auto Formula you built for me. I sold it cuz i finished my L67 into my 86GT. But I did buy an 88 coupe with 97K on it that I've been resurrecting for the gas mileage reason too.

The best gas mileage I got with the Formula was 26 MPG.
My L67 in my 86GT gets 23 MPG.
I'm putting a 4 speed auto in the 88 duke. I'm curious as to what I will get.

Nice work as always.

------------------
Project Genisis Lo Budget 3800SC swap

88 Coupe under construction.

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sardonyx247
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Thanks for the comment.

I still have alot to do.

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sardonyx247
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I haven't had many pics the last couple of days, had some unrelated things to take care of.


Here is the crank, this thing is HEAVY, I would say 35 - 40 lbs, heavy for a 4 cyl crank. (or prob for any cyl crank)
The oil holes for the mains go all the way through and the rods tie into the mains holes, so the rods are always getting oil, instead of only half the rotation like most engines.




The bare block all clean after the pressure washer, I also used a screwdriver and a wire brush to clean out the coolent passages.
Not even the slightest ridge on the pistons holes, this block is great, no need to bore or new pistons.










The pressure washer revealed some red paint under the balck, like some hideous past, more black paint is in order.






Here are the two gaskets sets I have. I bought one, then my cat ate one of the cam cover gaskets, so I started looking for the gasket I needed, then I found a second gasket set on ebay very cheap minus the head gasket. So it worked out great, this was years ago. They are different sets, I figured I would show pics of the differences between the two.






Here is the KS 2660




and the HS 9515 PT




I hope all these pics help someone someday.
I do wonder if I have blown up a phone or two trying to view this mobile.

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Report this Post06-30-2012 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skuzzbomerSend a Private Message to skuzzbomerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I do wonder if I have blown up a phone or two trying to view this mobile.


Nope, but you have crashed my browser countless times

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Report this Post06-30-2012 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hypo327Click Here to Email hypo327Send a Private Message to hypo327Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sweeeeeet! Thanks for sharing! Let us know how it performs!

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post06-30-2012 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Always remember,

If you can't keep it in your car....
Keep it wrapped, and Keep it clean.

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-02-2012 04:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

To knock out this seal just set it on some blocks of wood, like shown, and use a screwdriver and a hammer to knock it out.



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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-02-2012 04:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Time to paint some parts. I wire wheel'd all the east coast rust off first, there wasn't much, but things just don't rust out here in Vegas.


Before. Timming chain cover, rear main seal housing, and water pump housing.




After.




Before. The engine mounts and balancer.






After.















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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-02-2012 07:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Questions, Opinions, Comments?.?.?

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Report this Post07-02-2012 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

looking good, keep up the good work! it's nice to see something different.

------------------
there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!

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Report this Post07-03-2012 06:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

Questions, Opinions, Comments?.?.?


Sure. When are you coming to build me one?

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-03-2012 08:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:


Sure. When are you coming to build me one?


As soon as you pay for travel expenses, room and board. I would LOVE to go build you one.

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-03-2012 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Painted parts after the paint is dry and the tape removed, ah as the pile of ready to assemble parts grows.




More prepped, cleaned, and de-rusted parts ready for paint.
The alternator, A/C, and belt tensioner bracket.




From left to right, the stock coolent tube, the engine lift bracket, the oil dipstick/fill tube, and lower A/C bracket.




Lower exhaust manifold heat shield, upper heat shield, lower exhaust manifold bracket.




All painted, (paint's still wet)














About 2/3rds done painting, almost ready to put all these painted parts together.

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Report this Post07-03-2012 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stickboySend a Private Message to stickboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

great thread

I like the quad 4. If I didn't have to pass PA's visual emission check, it would be on my possible engine swaps list. Since I use my fiero as a daily driver for more than 5,000 mile a year, no egr valve means it wouldn't pass.....

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Report this Post07-03-2012 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by stickboy:

great thread

I like the quad 4. If I didn't have to pass PA's visual emission check, it would be on my possible engine swaps list. Since I use my fiero as a daily driver for more than 5,000 mile a year, no egr valve means it wouldn't pass.....


why not? the quad four didn't have one factory. and when you tell them it's been swapped from a 199x olds xxxxxx they should base their inspection on that. I would check with a smog ref/ do some reading up on it before I wrote it off.

------------------
there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!

Fiero Owner's group on 60degreeV6.com

I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post07-03-2012 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I found that I could not legally register my pace car in Las Vegas due to that very issue, at least going through the proper legal channels (or challenges)

It was another case of, "well this car came with an EGR, and I do not see any EGR".

The DMV required that the manufacturer of the Engine (GM) write a letter, certifying that this engine was in fact a drivetrain from a "91 Beretta" and that it meets all the emissions equipment requirements of that engine.

Unfortunately, I did everything I could to get that letter, and NO one, NOT one person was willing to put their name on a document that would only serve as a liability to them. So there was a way to do it, but it would never happen.

There are ways around this...
You could put the EGR on it, and that would make it compliant.
Or just find an inspector that is corrupt, or incompetent.

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Report this Post07-03-2012 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

I found that I could not legally register my pace car in Las Vegas due to that very issue, at least going through the proper legal channels (or challenges)

It was another case of, "well this car came with an EGR, and I do not see any EGR".

The DMV required that the manufacturer of the Engine (GM) write a letter, certifying that this engine was in fact a drivetrain from a "91 Beretta" and that it meets all the emissions equipment requirements of that engine.

Unfortunately, I did everything I could to get that letter, and NO one, NOT one person was willing to put their name on a document that would only serve as a liability to them. So there was a way to do it, but it would never happen.

There are ways around this...
You could put the EGR on it, and that would make it compliant.
Or just find an inspector that is corrupt, or incompetent.



I still don't see why it would matter if it blows clean... but thats another thread.

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-03-2012 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

I found that I could not legally register my pace car in Las Vegas due to that very issue, at least going through the proper legal channels (or challenges)

It was another case of, "well this car came with an EGR, and I do not see any EGR".

The DMV required that the manufacturer of the Engine (GM) write a letter, certifying that this engine was in fact a drivetrain from a "91 Beretta" and that it meets all the emissions equipment requirements of that engine.

Unfortunately, I did everything I could to get that letter, and NO one, NOT one person was willing to put their name on a document that would only serve as a liability to them. So there was a way to do it, but it would never happen.

There are ways around this...
You could put the EGR on it, and that would make it compliant.
Or just find an inspector that is corrupt, or incompetent.


This is Vegas, they all are corrupt, or incompetent, you just went to the wrong kind of incompetent, thus why he wouldn't pass you.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-03-2012 06:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


This is Vegas, they all are corrupt, or incompetent, you just went to the wrong kind of incompetent, thus why he wouldn't pass you.



LOL!

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Reallybig
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Report this Post07-03-2012 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ReallybigSend a Private Message to ReallybigEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Everything is looking great! As you're painting, I am reminded of my engine. I painted my 4.9 black and silver (aluminum) trying to keep things clean and stock looking. With the valve covers black and the oil pan black, the whole engine just disappears in the black engine bay. A lot of my detail work just isn't noticed. I wish I had chosen a different theme color....food for thought depending on your desires for an end result.

Keep up the good work! The Quad 4 was one of my serious considerations but decided on the 4.9 because I found one low miles in great condition. Maybe next time!

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fourpoint9
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Report this Post07-04-2012 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fourpoint9Click Here to Email fourpoint9Send a Private Message to fourpoint9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Awesome job. I bought a Quad4 and then decided to do a 4.9L. Now that that one's done I'm doing the Quad4 in a Blue 87 coupe with 88 rear suspension.
I bought a rebuilt W41 block from a Quad4Forums member and used all the stuff from the wrecking yard motor I bought.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/086515-2.html

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zkhennings
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Report this Post07-05-2012 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I faked having an egr. I just used some metal wire to attach it to the cross over and then just shoved the tube under the intake and wrapped where it met the crossover with a metal foil and thin sheet metal. It looked very convincing. But I guess my fiero does not have to pass emmissions any more so they did nt even look under the hood. I thought it did because the RMV's site said 83 or older did not have to pass while mine is an 85, but I learned later is a 25 year old deal and the dmvs site was outdated. But regardless I am sure my fake egr job would have fooled them.

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-05-2012 08:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Reallybig:

With the valve covers black and the oil pan black, the whole engine just disappears in the black engine bay. A lot of my detail work just isn't noticed. I wish I had chosen a different theme color....food for thought depending on your desires for an end result.

Keep up the good work! The Quad 4 was one of my serious considerations but decided on the 4.9 because I found one low miles in great condition. Maybe next time!


I want it all to fade into the engine bay.


A few more painted parts. Some misc. brackets and the water fill housing.






All the black parts so far.



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josef644
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Report this Post07-05-2012 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for josef644Click Here to Email josef644Send a Private Message to josef644Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is a swap I always wanted to do. I check in every few days and see your progress. Keep up the good work.
-Joe

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-06-2012 07:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Reassembly time.


The bare block.






The pistons and rods.




The "free floating pin" on the piston is held in by a clip on both sides of the pistons.
You can see the clip here.




And how the clip sits in the piston. Make sure the rod is facing the correct direction when reassembled on the piston.
(The oil squirt hole on the rod is on the same side as the valve reliefs.)




The main caps.




The crank back in the engine waiting for the main caps to be torqued down.




Putting the pistons back in. Make sure the arrow on the piston is pointing to the front of the engine.




I always tap the sides of the ring compressor down with a hammer to make sure the compressor is square with the top of the block.
(It helps the rings not pop out if there is a gap)




The boots on the rod bolts, you can also use rubber hose.




All the pistons in and torqued down.




With the windage tray, oil pump, and oil pick up support on.






I ran thread chasers in all the bolt holes on the block. If you use a tap, use a good quality tap like craftsman, do not use harbor freight taps, they are just a tad bigger and will make the bolts loose. I made my own thread chasers from old bolts and a dremal to cut the grooves in the bolts.






I still have to finish up and assemble the head before I can put it back on, and a bunch of seals to replace.
More to come......


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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-07-2012 01:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm going camping for a few days so this will have to wait.
But I will leave you with an awesome video series on the Quad 4,
A GM training video on rebuilding the Quad 4.

ENJOY


Part 1


Part 2


Part 3


Part 4


Part 5


Part 6


Part 7


Part 8


Part 9


Part 10

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