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The Turbo 3500 F23 swap by ericjon262
Started on: 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
Replies: 409 (18286 views)
Last post by: ericjon262 on 01-09-2019 02:22 AM
ericjon262
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Report this Post11-19-2012 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

a valve was in the plans for sure, but I'm thinking I will use Ice packs instead of actual ice, I'll explain later when I'm not at work.



I was thinking about using "waterless coolant" in both my engine, and intercooler system, and I wouldn't want to dilute the coolant with true Ice, so Ice packs could be used, and possibly provide better cooling than Ice.


Edit:

PAGE 4!!!

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[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 11-19-2012).]

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Report this Post11-19-2012 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I was thinking about using "waterless coolant" in both my engine, and intercooler system, and I wouldn't want to dilute the coolant with true Ice, so Ice packs could be used, and possibly provide better cooling than Ice.


Edit:

PAGE 4!!!


Make sure you look into the thermal characteristics since water cools best with a little addititive to keep it from freezing. As for ice packs vs ice, about the only difference will be time to reach the same temperature in which case ice will win due to surface area exposure, then the packs from a stand point of efficiency and cost, some place the ice still in the bag inside the tank.

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Report this Post11-19-2012 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Make sure you look into the thermal characteristics since water cools best with a little addititive to keep it from freezing. As for ice packs vs ice, about the only difference will be time to reach the same temperature in which case ice will win due to surface area exposure, then the packs from a stand point of efficiency and cost, some place the ice still in the bag inside the tank.


from what I've read, it's about the same as far as the thermal characteristics are concerned. I'm unsure though about what would heat up quicker. either way, I don't think it would be a problem, the tank holds a ton of coolant and if I somehow managed to overcome the coolant and heat exchanger, I've got a WAY bigger problem on my hands!

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Report this Post11-20-2012 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
from what I've read, it's about the same as far as the thermal characteristics are concerned. I'm unsure though about what would heat up quicker. either way, I don't think it would be a problem, the tank holds a ton of coolant and if I somehow managed to overcome the coolant and heat exchanger, I've got a WAY bigger problem on my hands!


I was refering to the time it takes for the water to cool down near the temperature of the ice vs the much bulkier ice packs. You're not going to exceed your cooling capacity with the size tank you have by a long shot. I wonder if you could get a bag of dry ice in the tank, you'd have to leave the top off to allow it to evap.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-20-2012).]

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Report this Post11-20-2012 12:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


I was refering to the time it takes for the water to cool down near the temperature of the ice vs the much bulkier ice packs. You're not going to exceed your cooling capacity with the size tank you have by a long shot. I wonder if you could get a bag of dry ice in the tank, you'd have to leave the top off to allow it to evap.



or just install a vent in the tank. I'm sure I could fit dry ice in there, the hole in the top is 8" in diameter.

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Report this Post12-23-2012 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

been a while since a real update...

Heat exchanger installed



there was a frame horn in the way of the ports, and it doesn't appear to support anything.



so I cut it off...



Pump installed



a few pretty welds...

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



intercooler core mounted (need to sandblast and paint all of my mounts...)

and I also got my battery tray cut out, need to get a tube of 5200 before I can finish it...


-262

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Report this Post12-27-2012 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

got my heads back! gained over 17% (average)on the intakes, and over 11%(average) on the exhaust!

peak flow on the intakes 250 CFM (up from 222) and 191 CFM on the exhaust(up from 174)

-262

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Report this Post12-27-2012 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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Report this Post12-30-2012 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post













This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



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Report this Post12-30-2012 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Corpsmen EdClick Here to visit Corpsmen Ed's HomePageClick Here to Email Corpsmen EdSend a Private Message to Corpsmen EdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Holy crap, dude. This build is awesome. Now you have me thinking of doing something crazy different for my swap.

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Report this Post12-30-2012 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Holy crap, dude. This build is awesome. Now you have me thinking of doing something crazy different for my swap.


Thanks!

I'm getting ready to start modding the Upper intake manifold to accept a 75 mm LS1 throttle body, and hopefully increase flow and velocity.

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Report this Post12-31-2012 05:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thread title changed per OP's request.

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Report this Post12-31-2012 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:

Thread title changed per OP's request.


Thanks Cliff.

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Report this Post01-02-2013 12:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

who said you can't mig weld aluminum without a spool gun!



but, in all fairness, it's a royal pain without one, I'm going to try to get one now though!

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Report this Post01-02-2013 07:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

who said you can't mig weld aluminum without a spool gun!

but, in all fairness, it's a royal pain without one, I'm going to try to get one now though!



You can, it's just very difficult with thin wire (.023) and a Mig unit setup for steel wire. During the purchase of a replacement hose and trigger, I discovered there was a special aluminum welding kit and purchased it. I don't have it in front of me but the most unique thing about it is the nylon liner that is to be inserted in the hose in place of the steel spiral liner to reduce drag on the wire that causes it to wod up in the unit at the feed point. I've had the kit which came with a good size spool and slag brush and some other things I can't recall but I have yet to try and use it. I did attempt it long ago with the standard setup and as stated it was a horrible mess, the unit jammed easily.

What you have displayed is very encouraging, I just don't have any aluminum welding jobs at the moment to try out the aluminum welding kit and yes I have a tank of the proper shielding gas for it. Heck I might make my own intercooler water tank if it works out okay.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-03-2013).]

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Report this Post01-02-2013 08:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

who said you can't mig weld aluminum without a spool gun!

but, in all fairness, it's a royal pain without one, I'm going to try to get one now though!



Here is my aluminum mig weld w/o a spool gun!


I used the aluminum conversion kit with the plastic liner and non-grooved rollers. The biggest challenge is when the wire doesn't push, reduce the roller tension vs. making it tighter. The issue with the feed is almost always too much roller pressure deforming the aluminum so when it get to the tip it can't fit through the hole. I did all my welding with .035 wire, but I did pick up a couple spools and tips of .045 to see if it works better. If I didn't like my welder so much (ProMig 175) I would buy a new one with a spool gun, but I like it and want to keep it for now. Maybe I will try adapting a spool gun to this welded some day when I need to do more aluminum welding.

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Report this Post01-02-2013 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The thickness of the wire is more a function of your welder's amp rating. I run a 110 v 90/100 amp unit for versatility so .045 is pushing it if an extension cord is involved. The downside of a spool gun is that it would have been impossible for me to do some of the in car mock ups I did for close tolerance clearance.

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Report this Post01-02-2013 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Here is my aluminum mig weld w/o a spool gun!


I used the aluminum conversion kit with the plastic liner and non-grooved rollers. The biggest challenge is when the wire doesn't push, reduce the roller tension vs. making it tighter. The issue with the feed is almost always too much roller pressure deforming the aluminum so when it get to the tip it can't fit through the hole. I did all my welding with .035 wire, but I did pick up a couple spools and tips of .045 to see if it works better. If I didn't like my welder so much (ProMig 175) I would buy a new one with a spool gun, but I like it and want to keep it for now. Maybe I will try adapting a spool gun to this welded some day when I need to do more aluminum welding.


Got a part number for the conversion kit? I have a Pro Mig 180 and that sounds a whole lot cheaper than a spool gun! ($250)

Thanks-

Eric

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Report this Post01-02-2013 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I tried to mig aluminum once. It kept balling up on the roller anytime the wire would hit the surface I was welding. I looked into the kit for ~$70 but never got it. I've always heard you really need a spool gun for mig welding aluminum. looked into spool guns and I decided I would rather put that money towards a nice TIG setup.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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Report this Post01-02-2013 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

http://www.htpweld.com/prod.../accessories/a5.html

Scroll down to the aluminum kit. Glad I looked over the intro as it has some pointers that I was not aware of. I also hope that I didn't toss the nozzle that came with it on the gun for general purpose use. Now that I think about it, since I got the new gun and kit at the same time I'm sure I didn't. I certainly wasn't aware of the need for higher gas pressure.

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Report this Post01-02-2013 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Got a part number for the conversion kit? I have a Pro Mig 180 and that sounds a whole lot cheaper than ($250)

Thanks-

Eric


For the Pro Mig 175 the part # is k664-2 and costs about $80

The Pro Mig 180 is a completely different machine (newer/revised design). From the manual it will directly interface with the Lincoln Magnum 100 SG spool gun, but the Pro Mig 175 doesn't have that option (spool gun, but there is at least one guy who has one running with a spool gun). Might try searching ebay for aluminum conversion kits to see if any of them list compatibility with the 180.

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Report this Post01-02-2013 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

The thickness of the wire is more a function of your welder's amp rating. I run a 110 v 90/100 amp unit for versatility so .045 is pushing it if an extension cord is involved. The downside of a spool gun is that it would have been impossible for me to do some of the in car mock ups I did for close tolerance clearance.


True, but for those of use with 175+ amp machines... we can weld using thicker wire. First thing you should do to every houshold welder is replace the power cord with a longer one made from 10ga wire. I run a 20' power cord on my welder w/o issue. Just go to lowes and find one of the large yellow RV cords 50' is about $100, but there are shorter options. Cut the ends off and add the right end and wire it into the welder. With 10ga chord, you won't have the same issues of trying to use a normal extension.

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Report this Post01-02-2013 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
True, but for those of use with 175+ amp machines... we can weld using thicker wire. First thing you should do to every houshold welder is replace the power cord with a longer one made from 10ga wire. I run a 20' power cord on my welder w/o issue. Just go to lowes and find one of the large yellow RV cords 50' is about $100, but there are shorter options. Cut the ends off and add the right end and wire it into the welder. With 10ga chord, you won't have the same issues of trying to use a normal extension.


I have that cord already which solved the problem, but it's such a good piece of equipment I'm not going to cut it. I got mine from Home Depot which also has bulk cord by the foot in various gauge and what I used for the Plasma cutter which came without a plug end. .023 wire welds so easily I never bother with anything thicker.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-02-2013).]

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Report this Post01-02-2013 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

I tried to mig aluminum once. It kept balling up on the roller anytime the wire would hit the surface I was welding. I looked into the kit for ~$70 but never got it. I've always heard you really need a spool gun for mig welding aluminum. looked into spool guns and I decided I would rather put that money towards a nice TIG setup.



I'd love to get a nice TIG, but the funds aren't there and I won't have a place to keep it before too long (boot camp in May...) if I hadn't got such a killer deal on my Pro-Mig 180, I probably wouldn't have bought it.

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Report this Post01-03-2013 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


You can, it's just very difficult with thin wire (.023) and a Mig unit setup of for steel wire. During the purchase of a replacement hose and trigger, I discovered there was a special aluminum welding kit and purchased it. I don't have it in front of me but the most unique thing about it is the nylon liner that is to be inserted in the hose in place of the steel spiral liner to reduce drag on the wire that causes it to wod up in the unit at the feed point. I've had the kit which came with a good size spool and slag brush and some other things I can't recall but I have yet to try and use it. I did attempt it long ago with the standard setup and as stated it was a horrible mess, the unit jammed easily.

What you have displayed is very encouraging, I just don't have any aluminum welding jobs at the moment to try out the aluminum welding kit and yes I have a tank of the proper shielding gas for it. Heck I might make my own intercooler water tank if it works out okay.



the steel wire setup will work, but it does bind super easy, I wasn't having trouble with the .030 wire, I was using though. I did find the cast intake seemed much easier to weld then some flat stock I picked up at bLowe's (yes I sanded the cladding off and wiped with acetone) but I could have had the settings on the machine wrong for the thinner stuff.

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Report this Post01-03-2013 05:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
the steel wire setup will work, but it does bind super easy, I wasn't having trouble with the .030 wire, I was using though. I did find the cast intake seemed much easier to weld then some flat stock I picked up at bLowe's (yes I sanded the cladding off and wiped with acetone) but I could have had the settings on the machine wrong for the thinner stuff.


The thicker wire helps and seeing such a good job on that manifold opens the doors to other ideas. About 2 years ago someone here was working on a custom intake to support a supercharger on top of a 3500 and just as the build was starting to get interesting, he dropped off the face of the earth. You better hurry, May will be here "tomorrow".

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Report this Post01-03-2013 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


The thicker wire helps and seeing such a good job on that manifold opens the doors to other ideas. About 2 years ago someone here was working on a custom intake to support a supercharger on top of a 3500 and just as the build was starting to get interesting, he dropped off the face of the earth. You better hurry, May will be here "tomorrow".


yes it will be...

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Report this Post01-11-2013 02:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



Quick and dirty sketchup of the headers, I was going to do a 3-1 style instead of a log, but these should do fine for what I need, and look good doing it.

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Report this Post01-11-2013 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks good!

You could taper the main tube across all the primaries like this:

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Report this Post01-11-2013 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Looks good!

You could taper the main tube across all the primaries like this:



I thought about doing that, but I want a 2" hotside, and the cone I found would end up at about 3.5" for the output, if this was going to be N/A, I would go for it, but as a turbo car, I want to keep velocity higher.

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Report this Post01-11-2013 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Alright, it's on! I just put through an order with columbia river mandrel bending for the pipe for the hotside! hopefully I will have the pipe in time for my weekend off!

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Report this Post01-27-2013 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got to work on the hotside today...

I started by cutting a U bend in half

Then I cut a side off

Then I welded the cutoff back on 180*

Then I made a window and started welding.

Rinse and repeat...


Almost done.

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Report this Post01-28-2013 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

A little closer...

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#1 hater! also the aluminum head 60V6 troll.

I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post01-30-2013 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

got a DHP powrtuner, going to start trying to get something for a base tune started.

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Report this Post02-02-2013 01:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

well, I've started working on modding a 3400 bin file for my 3500, so far, I have:

1. deleted EGR
2. imported Maf tables for LS1 Maf
3. changed the IFR for my 60 PPH injectors
4. bumped up hot idle to 800 RPM in Accessories>IAC>IAC desired idle speed. for the cam.

I'm not 100% sure I got the EGR delete right, I lowers the Disable thresholds to 0, and raised the enable thresholds to maximum (speed=255, TPS=100.9961) would this delete EGR? I assume I also need to remove the DTC so I won't get an SES light correct?

Thanks-

Eric

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I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

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Report this Post02-02-2013 06:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got a little bit done on the hotside before it got dark outside....





not permanent, I'm going to try to find a 2" V-band clamp, because I won't be able to fit a ball and socket in there

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Report this Post02-06-2013 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

A little more progress one the hotside today.







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I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post02-10-2013 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:






Man... this picture reminds me of what it was that I liked about the "2m" body style so much... I used to have a 1984 Fiero 2m4 SE, and damn it looked good. Pontiac really got that styling right. Don't get me wrong, I love my 1987 Fiero SE/V6... but that 2m6 you've got there just looks bat-**** awesome...


Here's mine, in it's hey-day before the paint started fading and I tore it down:


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Report this Post02-10-2013 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

well, I've started working on modding a 3400 bin file for my 3500, so far, I have:

1. deleted EGR
2. imported Maf tables for LS1 Maf
3. changed the IFR for my 60 PPH injectors
4. bumped up hot idle to 800 RPM in Accessories>IAC>IAC desired idle speed. for the cam.

I'm not 100% sure I got the EGR delete right, I lowers the Disable thresholds to 0, and raised the enable thresholds to maximum (speed=255, TPS=100.9961) would this delete EGR? I assume I also need to remove the DTC so I won't get an SES light correct?

Thanks-

Eric



Just curious about how you've planned to manage boost with a 3400 code mask that has no boosted application that I'm aware of unless there's a switch for a 2 bar MAP in it?

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Report this Post02-10-2013 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

you have to manually change the Map sensor values. My main concern right now, is that I have a 3 bar MAP sensor, and I'm told that some of the PCMs similar to what I'm using can only read up to 2 bar... Tiny tuner let me input the values for the 3 bar though, so we will see what happens when I plug everything in and program it... I'll hook the sensor up to my air compressor and run a scan (with the engine off) and see if it stops reading at 2 BAR. if I have to, I'll import the L67 values for it's 2 BAR, and get a 2 BAR MAP sensor.

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I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

Built not bought...

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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