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The Turbo 3500 F23 swap by ericjon262
Started on: 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
Replies: 621 (23948 views)
Last post by: ericjon262 on 04-04-2021 08:14 PM
ericjon262
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Report this Post02-21-2021 02:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Drop spindles, rod end lateral links, spherical bearings, and anti dive spacers are all in! for the short drive around the block, it seems to drive about like stock still, it doesn't feel harsh or overly aggressive, that being said, I babied it around, and I really need to bleed the brakes again, I think there's trapped air in them still, because they're just way too soft. I also washed the car for the first time in probably five years... it cleans up nice, even though the paint looks like trash up close. here's a before and after for the suspension work and spit shine.

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Report this Post03-22-2021 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
long time no update...

The hubcaps on the rear wheels never cleared the axle stub/nut, so I drew up some extensions and 3D printed them. originally, this was planned as a test fit, and I would later reprint the cap extender in ABS, or something more durable than PLA, the only problem is, my tolerances were tight, and the cap is stuck on there good now. If it flies off going down the road, it flies off.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



The newest design has provisions for a spring to be installed to aid in holding the cap in place. it's available here if anyone wants/needs it.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4772551

My car hasn't had sail panels for a while, I had a few sets to choose from, but I ended up going with my old stock ones, after carefully taping them off and painting them.



I was having a ton of tuning issues since I updated the injector dead times, no matter what I did, the engine was either going lean and dying, or blowing black smoke rich and fowling spark plugs. I did some more research on my injectors, and found that there were several runs of Deka injectors with differing dead times, so I increased my dead times by about 25% and my problems now appear to be gone, which was quite the relief. unfortunately, the brakes are really bad right now, I suspected a blown master cylinder, so I bought a new one, for a 90's S-10 blazer, but of course the new MC was DOA, and leaking by internally, so my brakes were still crap...The new MC should arrive tomorrow, and we'll see whether or not my brakes are restored. if they are, I'll probably take it for a short drive and take some datalogs.

Other than that, I've been spending the vast majority of my time remodeling my kitchen, and replumbing my house, of course, that project is also waiting on parts, so... yeah.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

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Report this Post03-25-2021 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice that is a slick solution angling the front crossmember back to (near?) parallel with the road. I intend to do a custom front crossmember at some point, but this is a really cool solution to utilize all the stock components and fix the dive/lift problem. I may pursue a similar concept.

Have you considered running a custom adjustable front upper A arm that has a lower inboard pivot axis to improve the camber curve? From what I have looked at it seems fairly straight forwards to weld some new upper A arm mounts lower down on the crossmember. Two small box sections with a captured nut per A arm. Plate steel cut out to accept the Fiero upper ball joint welded to DOM tubing with rod ends. Can adjust static camber and caster much more easily this way as well.

Also good to hear you figured out the deadtimes on those injectors you have.
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Report this Post03-26-2021 12:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Nice that is a slick solution angling the front crossmember back to (near?) parallel with the road. I intend to do a custom front crossmember at some point, but this is a really cool solution to utilize all the stock components and fix the dive/lift problem. I may pursue a similar concept.

Have you considered running a custom adjustable front upper A arm that has a lower inboard pivot axis to improve the camber curve? From what I have looked at it seems fairly straight forwards to weld some new upper A arm mounts lower down on the crossmember. Two small box sections with a captured nut per A arm. Plate steel cut out to accept the Fiero upper ball joint welded to DOM tubing with rod ends. Can adjust static camber and caster much more easily this way as well.

Also good to hear you figured out the deadtimes on those injectors you have.



Thanks!

The anti dive setup is all Will, I can't take credit for it, and it does have it's share of difficulties.

-The modification lifts the front of the car about 1" Will and I both fixed that with drop spindles, I am unsure as to how well this would work with lowering balljoints, or lowering springs.

-The spherical "Miss alignment" washers won't allow for the degree of miss alignment required, so you have to use an M12 washer, and bore out the convex portion.

-Steering shaft is a little bit short, the pinch bolt gets engaged, but just barely.

-rotating the crossmember pushes the front LCA mount rearward, so the control arm doesn't fit anymore without slotting the holes

-you lose pretty much all the caster that was in the stock suspension, and as far as I can see, there isn't a way to get it back without a custom adjustable UCA
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I had a few ideas floating around that might make the install easier, but I need to get them on paper and do some shadetree engineering to figure out if my ideas are executable. if I do it again, I don't want slotted holes in the crossmember. realistically, if I do something like this again, it will be a new front suspension with some kind of coilover setup.


I would like to make some adjustable UCA's, right now, the car doesn't self center at all, but I also have barely driven it like this, the brakes need fixed before I drive it anywhere, they're super soft, and I'm not really sure why.
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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

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[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 03-26-2021).]

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Report this Post03-26-2021 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like you need a custom offset UCA, seems like the simplest path to fix your caster issues. I would be surprised if with the earlier front suspension geometry + no caster you wouldn't roll over onto the sidewall during hard turns. I forget if you have lowering ball joints but that may help prevent that to some degree giving you a little more negative camber on compression.

Can you extend the steering coupler? I would be a little nervous driving a car with the power yours is making without full engagement of that pinch area!

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-26-2021).]

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Report this Post03-26-2021 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Sounds like you need a custom offset UCA, seems like the simplest path to fix your caster issues. I would be surprised if with the earlier front suspension geometry + no caster you wouldn't roll over onto the sidewall during hard turns. I forget if you have lowering ball joints but that may help prevent that to some degree giving you a little more negative camber on compression.

Can you extend the steering coupler? I would be a little nervous driving a car with the power yours is making without full engagement of that pinch area!



I have 2" drop spindles, which is part of what I forgot to add to the list of issues, this raises the nose of the car about an inch or so. I have been planning making a set of adjustable control arms, the car needs more camber too, I need to take the upper ball joints back out and slot the holes for the ball joints/bolts.

I have a few ideas for extending the steering shaft, it's pretty solid ATM, but I agree, it could use to be better.

At the moment, my top priority remains the brakes, but I have too much work to do on my house ATM to spend time on the car until I get things to a more complete state.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

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Report this Post03-26-2021 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
the brakes need fixed before I drive it anywhere, they're super soft, and I'm not really sure why.


The C5 calipers are 42% larger, so the brake pedal will be 42% softer for the same clamp force if you have not swapped brake master cylinders.
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Report this Post03-26-2021 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


The C5 calipers are 42% larger, so the brake pedal will be 42% softer for the same clamp force if you have not swapped brake master cylinders.


agreed, but something still isn't right, I should say spongy, not soft. it feels like there's air in the lines still, but I have bled them, and bled them, and bled them... The lines, the master ect. bleed until there's no air, start the car, push the pedal, and it goes to the floor. I'm installing a new, AC delco S10 blazer MC this weekend, hopefully it will solve my problems, I would like to drive this car at least a little bit before I have to move.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

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Report this Post03-28-2021 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you running ceramic pads? They feel significantly spongier than semi metallic ones
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Report this Post03-28-2021 11:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Are you running ceramic pads? They feel significantly spongier than semi metallic ones


I honestly don't remember at this point, I bought them 4-5 years ago... (man it's depressing to say that...), but they aren't spongy in the sense that they're ok to drive on, but a little iffy, they're spongy like, not a snowball's chance in hell I'll drive it like this... The new master came in today, unfortunately, I've been working on my kitchen all day and didn't get a chance to do anything with it.

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Report this Post03-29-2021 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Only two things can be the caviat on your problem. Either you have a failed componet within the system or Fieroguru is right in the sense that your Corvette calipers are causing the problem due to mismatched parts not being compatible. Don't focuse in one assumption, go back and re check every component. A good known part can fail without noticed.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 03-29-2021).]

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Report this Post03-29-2021 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Only two things can be the caviat on your problem. Either you have a failed componet within the system or Fieroguru is right in the sense that your Corvette calipers are causing the problem due to mismatched parts not being compatible. Don't focuse in one assumption, go back and re check every component. A good known part can fail without noticed.



there is most certainly a failed component, the symptoms I am getting are extremely strange and hard to describe, but essentially, the system won't hold pressure once added force is applied, EG, firm pedal until I start the car and the brake booster boosts. the MC is currently the most suspect part, I have a new, larger master sitting on my desk that I hope to bleed and install tomorrow.
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Report this Post03-29-2021 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


there is most certainly a failed component, the symptoms I am getting are extremely strange and hard to describe, but essentially, the system won't hold pressure once added force is applied, EG, firm pedal until I start the car and the brake booster boosts. the MC is currently the most suspect part, I have a new, larger master sitting on my desk that I hope to bleed and install tomorrow.


The reason I agree with Guru is becasue years back I installed a set of Wilwood D54 GM calipers specifically made for dirt track racing. They had huge pistons in it.
They felt very similar to your problem, spongy feeling and I had be very careful not to press on the pedal suddenly. At the track it was very unpredictable when heel and toeing,
Replace them with the stock D54 Camaro calipers and voila! problem solved. For me to use the Willwoods I have to upgrade my master cylinder.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 03-29-2021).]

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Report this Post03-30-2021 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
if I do it again, I don't want slotted holes in the crossmember.


Well that one was on you for welding the spherical bearing shells in without tacking in place

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I would like to make some adjustable UCA's, right now, the car doesn't self center at all, but I also have barely driven it like this, the brakes need fixed before I drive it anywhere, they're super soft, and I'm not really sure why.


Yeah, adjustable UCAs and a slightly longer steering shaft (with EPAS & Steering quickener ) would add polish to the anti-dive changes.
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Report this Post03-30-2021 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you are getting a firm pedal when the car is off then I would be surprised if you have any serious problems, the master is probably too small. I have a full sized Blazer MC in my Fiero to accommodate for the Grand Am brakes at all four corners, the Fiero reservoir replaces the stock Blazer one perfectly.

Also in regards to ceramic pads, I have run Hawk HPS ceramic pads on my WRX for years, the pedal is always hard when the car is off and it gets really squishy when the car is running. It needs very little pedal effort to grab really hard once the brakes have some heat in them.

Fast forward to recently and one of my front calipers has a sticky piston which ruined my $100 Hawk pads. I bought some 4 piston 06-07 WRX calipers for up front and some 2 pistons for the rear, but they need a rebuild. In the meantime I have unstuck the piston and thrown some cheap $13 semi metallics in the front, and my pedal is extremely firm now and engages much higher with much less pedal travel in general. I looked into it because I was confused as to why this is and apparently ceramic pads physically compress significantly more. It is maybe an inch+ more pedal travel in my WRX with the ceramic pads.

This is why I bring it up because the combination of a too small MC plus pads that need to get compressed more to engage will leave you with very little brakes even if everything is working properly.
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Report this Post03-30-2021 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Yeah, adjustable UCAs and a slightly longer steering shaft (with EPAS & Steering quickener ) would add polish to the anti-dive changes.


Besides actually adding some trail, there's also the EPAS idea:

1. Estimate the forces acting on the front contact patches
2. Using a simulated model of the actual butchered-together front suspension, compute the steering column torque that would be felt by the driver (without any intervention)
3. Using a simulated model of a correctly-designed front suspension, compute the steering column torque that SHOULD be felt by the driver's arms
4. Use the EPAS to make up the torque difference between the actual and ideal suspension
5. Enjoy your artificial ride?
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Report this Post03-30-2021 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Well that one was on you for welding the spherical bearing shells in without tacking in place


I wonder if I still could have made up enough space, it was really tight. but you're not wrong, I should have waited to do it until I had everything ready.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Yeah, adjustable UCAs and a slightly longer steering shaft (with EPAS & Steering quickener ) would add polish to the anti-dive changes.



like this?

https://grassrootsmotorspor...i-308/148959/page67/


Also, I had a thought, on the Pig Rig, I heated the collapsing part of the column with a heat gun, and was able to extend it a small amount. potentially, I could do the same with a Fiero shaft. not sure how much extension is safely available though.


 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
If you are getting a firm pedal when the car is off then I would be surprised if you have any serious problems, the master is probably too small. I have a full sized Blazer MC in my Fiero to accommodate for the Grand Am brakes at all four corners, the Fiero reservoir replaces the stock Blazer one perfectly.


I found a potential air leak in the combination valve.... I had an OK pedal with the stock master prior to the front suspension work, not great by any means, but also not blatantly unsafe like it is now. I figured it just needed to be bled better.

Did the reservoir just pull off, or is there some kind of latch or something holding it on? I've been looking at some larger truck MC's the only other cylinder I had known to work for sure was a S-10 blazer.


according to O'reilly's and summit racing, a mid 90's C3500HD has a ~1.57" MC. which would probably work well if it's actually that size, and has fittings that work.
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Besides actually adding some trail, there's also the EPAS idea:

1. Estimate the forces acting on the front contact patches
2. Using a simulated model of the actual butchered-together front suspension, compute the steering column torque that would be felt by the driver (without any intervention)
3. Using a simulated model of a correctly-designed front suspension, compute the steering column torque that SHOULD be felt by the driver's arms
4. Use the EPAS to make up the torque difference between the actual and ideal suspension
5. Enjoy your artificial ride?


yeah, I've been wondering about it, and how tuning a setup like that would work, making it fit can't be too hard, but making it work...

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

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Report this Post03-30-2021 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Besides actually adding some trail, there's also the EPAS idea:

1. Estimate the forces acting on the front contact patches
2. Using a simulated model of the actual butchered-together front suspension, compute the steering column torque that would be felt by the driver (without any intervention)
3. Using a simulated model of a correctly-designed front suspension, compute the steering column torque that SHOULD be felt by the driver's arms
4. Use the EPAS to make up the torque difference between the actual and ideal suspension
5. Enjoy your artificial ride?


I think the whole idea behind good suspension design is to make kludgey fake tuning shenanigans unnecessary
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Report this Post03-30-2021 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
yeah, I've been wondering about it, and how tuning a setup like that would work, making it fit can't be too hard, but making it work...


Well firstly, it would be pretty dicey in the sense that the car has one personality when everything is working right, and then the actual steering feel when the electronics are inoperative. So the driver could be unprepared for the car's true steering feel... refer to Boeing 737 MAX.

********************************************************************************

I hesitate to consider "self-centering" as a goal to achieve in a steering system.

In my view, it is important that the torque transmitted to the driver be proportional to the lateral contact patch force. This is the information that can help a driver to drive safely and quickly. Other sources of torque (such as jacking the front of the car as you turn) obscure the important information the driver needs.

Naturally, if you transmit the tires' lateral force to the steering wheel, the steering wheel will self-center, but that is a side-effect of the true goal.

Some folks have wanted a simple self-centering torque; torque overlay proportional to the steering angle. The electric equivalent of a mechanical spring. However, I think that this is a good way to make a driver crash. If a driver is taking a corner too fast, he needs to feel the steering get light as the front tires wash out. If the steering torque still feels high, then the driver might be duped into thinking that there's still grip available.

A driver can eventually adapt to a car that lies through its steering, but why?

********************************************************************************

At some point I did study synthetic steering feel for vehicles which don't have any (such as stuff with hydraulic steering), but it didn't get beyond the reading stage. With accelerometers and such you can figure what's going on with the tires. Also, depending on how inaccurate you want the estimated tire force to be, you can reduce the number of sensors.

********************************************************************************

I did once try a "steer-by-wire" setup.

I used a master EPS connected to a steering wheel.
I used a slave EPS connected to the rack of a vehicle.
There was no mechanical link between the only, only a CAN bus.

The master sent its steering wheel angle to the slave.
The slave adjusted the current in the electric motor in order to make the actual position follow the position ordered by the master.
Electric motor current is a proxy for torque; the slave reported back to the master how much current it was injecting into the motor.
The master injected the amount of current reported by the slave into its own electric motor, applying a torque to the steering wheel.

Surprisingly, it felt pretty real, without much tinkering required.

Of course, none of the parts I used for this setup were designed/rated for steer-by-wire, so it would have been too dicey to try this on a running/driving vehicle. I just tried it on a parked vehicle.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I think the whole idea behind good suspension design is to make kludgey fake tuning shenanigans unnecessary


I think a semi-synthetic feel setup would be a good fit good for someone doing a stock-style sleeper build. Somewhere, there must exist a manager that would like to solve an expensive hardware problem with a software patch... The ultimate stock-style project car build will reflect a normal amount of cost-cutting and dysfunction.

For example, there are people who restore cars, but they don't aim for the smoothest/shiniest paint. They instead seek to duplicate the factory paint runs.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 03-30-2021).]

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Report this Post03-31-2021 07:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And they use only the finest Italian hammers to make parts fit.
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Report this Post03-31-2021 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Did the reservoir just pull off, or is there some kind of latch or something holding it on? I've been looking at some larger truck MC's the only other cylinder I had known to work for sure was a S-10 blazer.


It is just a press fit if I remember correctly, I just made sure to remove the two barbs evenly
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Report this Post04-04-2021 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm going to be moving soon, so I wanted to get some parts of the car put back together so I would have less stuff to move or worry about breaking in transit. I got the headliner put in, and have the interior about 2/3's of the way complete for the first time in who knows how long.

for those of you with broken hard plastic interior bits, here's a useful tidbit.

The interior trim parts are all ABS plastic, and ABS pipe cement appears to do an acceptable job of holding the parts together. in this case, I repaired the A-Pillar trim where the tab broke off. I roughed up the area where I applied the cement, applied cement to both parts, held them together for a few minutes, and now they're stuck together nice and tight.

The downside, the cement is black, and will likely not match if it is visible. for things like the console skeleton, this is fine, visible stuff, not so much. I painted my "A" pillar trim black, so it doesn't matter to me.

I'm told the cement is ABS plastic, dissolved in acetone, I have not confirmed this, but it may be possible to dissolve some of a non-salvageable piece in acetone, and have a "DIY" cement in the factory colors, to avoid an obvious repair job being an eyesore.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

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