When GM catches a cold, the USA catches pneumonia. One BIG example you probably never considered, is advertising. Its a multi billion dollar industry. If GM goes belly up, the availability of a new Camaro will be the least of your worries. But don't worry, there'll still be Hyundais and Toyotas to buy. If you have any money. And if the money is any good. Chrysler/Cerberus have already axed the Challenger convertible, and 'delayed' the Camaro ragtop for at least a year..
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 11-14-2008).]
So it maybe a dumb question but I have to ask. If GM goes bankrupt before year end does that mean no camaro?
Ive said from the beginning you wouldnt see a new Camaro anyway for exactly just that reason.
They cant pay their suppliers, cant cover retired employees, cant cover the working employes they havent laid off already. But yet pay millions in annual salaries to execs. Unless Camaro can get 35 mpg, be under $15,000, and 1/2 the countries buyers get one, its a dead horse.
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02:47 PM
pcwentworth Member
Posts: 411 From: New Concord, Ohio, United States Registered: May 2005
There is only 1 person that can help GM now. Dr Kervorkian. Any thing else is temporary at best, then right back to where they are now. The company is way way way too big. But not too big to fail
If only they hadn't decided to put all their eggs in the SUV basket...
JazzMan
Yea GM really screwed up with that Malibu SUV and the Cobalt SUV and the Aveo SUV and the Lucerne SUV and the Saab 9-3 SUV and the Saab 9-5 SUV and the Pontiac g6 SUV and the G8 SUV and the G5 SUV and the Impala SUV and the HHR SUV and the Sky SUV and Aurora SUV and the Astra SUV. Yeah GM really put all their eggs in the SUV basket. What were they thinking not making any sedans.........
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03:11 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by maryjane: There is only 1 person that can help GM now. Dr Kervorkian. Any thing else is temporary at best, then right back to where they are now. The company is way way way too big. But not too big to fail
right. no bail out. use the proposed bailout money to start a NEW car company. NEW less greedy & inspired management - and NEW less greedy & productive workers. because with all the outsourceing which was done - it should be MUCH easier to make happen.
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03:20 PM
sostock Member
Posts: 5907 From: Grain Valley, MO Registered: May 2005
right. no bail out. use the proposed bailout money to start a NEW car company. NEW less greedy & inspired management - and NEW less greedy & productive workers. because with all the outsourceing which was done - it should be MUCH easier to make happen.
lol, I think they tried that once, it was called Saturn.
I think the only way the big three will survive is to cut off the retirees. I don't like the idea of telling a retired person that they are on their own but if they aren't selling cars there is no revenue to support them.
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03:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
Old Lar Member
Posts: 13798 From: Palm Bay, Florida Registered: Nov 1999
If GM files Chapter 11, the may be able break the stranglehold that UAW has on GM and force some major concessions. Eliminate the high paid non workers job bank, adjust the pay structure to non union competators so that they can build an affordable car. If GM shuts down, Michigan will become a welfare state.
There is a lot of balking on bothside of the aisle on adding more unregulated bailout funds becoming available to all comers.
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03:39 PM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
chapter 11= GM doesn't have to pay bills suppliers file chapter 11/go under
If GM goes under, mass exodus from Michigan truckers don't run dealers close used car lots fill up but no one can buy local stores near factories close not just Michigan, where ever plants are, except asian factories...
GM won't go completely under. They may restructure. They may even be bought out by a private company (see Chrysler/Cerberus). They may close down various divisions (like Oldsmobile) but they will never go away completely. Most of the retirees will be fine, too. Those that have their retirement tied up in stock will be hungry. Those that have their retirement money in a regular 401(k) type plan should be fine. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the new Camaro won't be produced. GM knew it was going to be a niche car from the start. It was/is going to be priced high enough that it'll be exclusive. With only 2 packages (RS and Z28) in addition to the base model (which is supposed to sell for what, $30k without any options?), I don't think GM can sell enough to make the run worthwhile.
GM won't go completely under. They may restructure. They may even be bought out by a private company (see Chrysler/Cerberus). They may close down various divisions............................
Same thing was said about WaMu, Lehman bros, Merril Lynch, and a whole host of other multi-billion $ companies--each with a global footprint. They have so much debt, and so much labor baggage, no one wants them. Yes, they make and sell more cars than any other global auto maker, but their overhead, and debt are so expansive, they can't make a profit. It's not that they are too big to fail--it's that they are so big, they must fail. Sink under their own weight--Titanic style. Their best hope, is that Ford or Chrysler bites the dust, and I don't think even those 2 failing can save GM. They may get a govt bailout, but I think it is now too little too late--not that I think increasing the govt handout can do anything other than postpone the inevitable.
WASHINGTON -- Any government aid to keep General Motors Corp. solvent through the next couple of years should force deeper cuts on the automaker's cost, including a reduction of UAW health care benefits for retirees, a Wall Street analyst said today.
JP Morgan analyst Himanshu Patel, who lowered his rating on GM's shares to "neutral" from "overweight," said GM could need $30 billion through 2010, including $7 billion for its 2010 payment to the health-care trust fund for UAW retirees.
"In our view, D.C. should provide a near-term loan to cover 1-2 quarters of cash burn," Patel said in a research note, "but a second sleeve of additional aid should be contingent on a re-cut of both financial debt and UAW legacy liabilities, and after GM draws up a plan to accelerate dealer network/brand cuts."
Patel said much of GM's troubles stem from the debt GM raised several years ago to pay UAW pensions, and from GM's decision not to mortgage its assets to raise cash last year as Ford Motor Co. did. He suggests the UAW could reduce the money the automakers had agreed to pay for retiree health care, make current workers pay more for their health care and take wage cuts.
Giving GM aid without requiring deeper cuts "might only increase the likelihood that the receiving parties return in six to nine months," Patel said.
GM has told lawmakers that it needs federal help before President-elect Barack Obama takes office Jan. 20. The UAW has said that its 2007 contract contained enough concessions -- such as lower wages and benefits for new workers -- that it closed the cost gap with foreign automakers in the United States.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-14-2008).]
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08:27 PM
PFF
System Bot
Curlrup Member
Posts: 2590 From: Havre De Grace, MD Registered: Apr 2007
Want to fix the American auto industry? Bust the UAW, and put a moratorium on CAFE standards.
Done. No tax dollars involved.
Best ideas I've heard all day.
In reality, if the UAW is broken up, then GM management should be shaken up as well (or perhaps, should be anyway.) They're as much to blame as the UAW, IMHO. When you piss everybody off, then you know you've gotten it close to "right".
CAFE is unnecessary. For many years, people have been saying that the market needs to make the decision as to what kind of fuel economy new vehicles should get. This last 6-8 months is stark proof that that concept works quite well. I don't think it will be forgotten by the auto makers any time soon, whether the buying public remembers it or not. (I've heard that large pickup and SUV purchases are on the upswing again. )
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-14-2008).]
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11:06 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20709 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Want to fix the American auto industry? Bust the UAW, and put a moratorium on CAFE standards.
Done. No tax dollars involved.
That won't happen.
Again, the Democrats could care less about GM. They care about the UAW. They want to use taxpayers money to support the UAW workers, who are Democratic Party bought voters. They could care less if GM ever made a dollar profit again. They will continue to pour money into the Big 3 forever. It will be socialized and government run companies.
Once the Democratic Party Government gives them money, they will have a moratorium on what the Big 3 can do. First, they will force them to keep the Jobs Bank program. They will then force them to continue to pay Union Phucks six figure incomes. They will limit Management and Executive Pay to under a million. They will mandate green cars and out-of-this world CAFE standards. Meaning that the Big 3 will be Democratic Party Government ran and will continue to lose money year after year after year. Because it's not subjected to the markets. It's a government work program.
I guess 326 Democrats in Congress can better run the Automobile Industry than anybody else.
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11:12 PM
Nov 15th, 2008
AusFiero Member
Posts: 11513 From: Dapto NSW Australia Registered: Feb 2001
Originally posted by Monkeyman: I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the new Camaro won't be produced. GM knew it was going to be a niche car from the start. It was/is going to be priced high enough that it'll be exclusive. With only 2 packages (RS and Z28) in addition to the base model (which is supposed to sell for what, $30k without any options?), I don't think GM can sell enough to make the run worthwhile.
They must have changed that plan somewhere along the way as the test mules running around Australia are V8s and V6s Looks like we'll have too keep it huh?
If they go under what will happen to the Transformers movie slated for this summer?? Every car in there is a GM car. Crap in a hat.
That is already so far into production and post that it won't matter. What it may matter on is Part 3 - maybe all the Autobots become Toyotas and join the Decepticons and destroy the Earth???
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12:28 PM
ALLTRBO Member
Posts: 2023 From: College Park, MD Registered: Mar 2006
Originally posted by Monkeyman: ...I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the new Camaro won't be produced. GM knew it was going to be a niche car from the start. It was/is going to be priced high enough that it'll be exclusive. With only 2 packages (RS and Z28) in addition to the base model (which is supposed to sell for what, $30k without any options?), I don't think GM can sell enough to make the run worthwhile.
No, $22,245. With a 300hp 3.6 DOHC VVT Direct-Injected V6. The most expensive model MSRP's at under $34, and that's with the 422hp LS3. It's very competitive and people like it so far, niche though it is. There as of yet isn't a Z28, and the RS is only an appearance package which you can get with the various models. If GM does narrowly escape death, they won't let this one go. Production is set to start in February, meaning they have much of the tooling ready to go. The question is whether or not GM will narrowly escape death. Personally I hope they make it through, because they look to be finally waking up with the newest models (Malibu, G8, CTS, Camaro).
------------------ 88 Fiero GT - garage ornament '96 Talon TSi AWD - 11.9 @ 116, sorta broke again '90 Camaro IROC-Z twin-turbo - sorta broke again '85 Kawi 750 Turbo - sorta broke still '95 Kawi GPZ1100 - 10 second daily driver, heh '87 Craftsman 8HP mid-engine mower - WTH?
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-15-2008).]
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12:36 PM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
I've seen a few driving around camouflaged. They're getting ready to put them on the market. If they don't produce it now, millions would be thrown away.
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10:10 PM
Nov 16th, 2008
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
If GM goes under, you will see a World Wide Depression that will stagger the mind. It will cause a domino effect quickly taking Ford / Chrysler with it, along with all the US / Foreign Suppliers, and the Companies they purchase raw materials from. This isn't just a USA impact.
People who haven't worked in the Automotive Industry or studied it from a World Wide prospective don't understand what will happen, and are looking at the issue with tunnel vision. In my opinion the only sensible answer is to bail them out with "Loans", failure to do this will result in a Depression that will last at least 12 years.
Lastly, the USA has to start treating other Countries Goods like they treat ours (taxes, restrictions, duties, etc.), or nothing is going to get fixed in the USA Economy. I'm not posting this to debate the issue, just stating my opinion. I sincerely hope our new government officials think long a hard on this one, or we're going to be in a talispin that I didn't think I'd see in my life time.
If GM goes under, you will see a World Wide Depression that will stagger the mind. It will cause a domino effect quickly taking Ford / Chrysler with it, along with all the US / Foreign Suppliers, and the Companies they purchase raw materials from. This isn't just a USA impact.
People who haven't worked in the Automotive Industry or studied it from a World Wide prospective don't understand what will happen, and are looking at the issue with tunnel vision. In my opinion the only sensible answer is to bail them out with "Loans", failure to do this will result in a Depression that will last at least 12 years.
Lastly, the USA has to start treating other Countries Goods like they treat ours (taxes, restrictions, duties, etc.), or nothing is going to get fixed in the USA Economy. I'm not posting this to debate the issue, just stating my opinion. I sincerely hope our new government officials think long a hard on this one, or we're going to be in a talispin that I didn't think I'd see in my life time.
I've studied it--so have the politicians. Even the Dems are afraid of a loan package to the big 3, especially to GM. The dems talk a lot about it publicly in favorable terms, but privately, know the carmaker would be back in 6 months with their hand out again--just like aig has done. Reuther has already said they will make no more concessions----thus the liklihood of any kind of meaningful bailout is dead-in-the-water. Even Obama has said both management and UAW have to make major cut/concessions/changes in order for the gubment to come in and make a "loan", which most people see as going something like recent financial institution "loans". The car companies get loans fromeither US Treasury or from existing lending institutions--backed by US Treasury--and US Treasury takes a stake in the car company, till the loan is repaid. A "Car Czar" would likely be appointed to oversee the Big 3. GM btw, is currently burning $1 million/hr.
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07:49 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I know it's a real messy complicated situation, but you have to remember our elected government put GM, Ford, and Chrysler in the position it's in today. The last assignment with GM that I had (before I went to Aerospace/Military work), was out-sourcing parts to Suppliers overseas. I put 4 Big US Suppliers into Chapter 11 by moving the business off shore on many parts. Reason: To reduce vehicle cost to be more competitive with imports coming into the USA. That happened just in the last 12 months. They did it because they had to and eliminated a middle class job base here in the USA for those parts, and this will continue to happen with "all" Industries in the USA until something is done about it.
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08:46 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
This is something you people who say let them go need to think about. He hit it right on the nose. If GM and the others go under there are going to waves of companies that supply them going under.
Think Detroit is a ghost town? Half of America will look like that. And that will send us into a depression of cataclysmic proportions.
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
If GM goes under, you will see a World Wide Depression that will stagger the mind. It will cause a domino effect quickly taking Ford / Chrysler with it, along with all the US / Foreign Suppliers, and the Companies they purchase raw materials from. This isn't just a USA impact.
People who haven't worked in the Automotive Industry or studied it from a World Wide prospective don't understand what will happen, and are looking at the issue with tunnel vision. In my opinion the only sensible answer is to bail them out with "Loans", failure to do this will result in a Depression that will last at least 12 years.
Lastly, the USA has to start treating other Countries Goods like they treat ours (taxes, restrictions, duties, etc.), or nothing is going to get fixed in the USA Economy. I'm not posting this to debate the issue, just stating my opinion. I sincerely hope our new government officials think long a hard on this one, or we're going to be in a talispin that I didn't think I'd see in my life time.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
As it is right now, even with an increased tarrif on imports, people will still buy imports over domestic in many cases. People are now afraid to buy Chrysler and GM, not knowing if their warranties are going to be honored if the companies go under. Ford, to a lesser extent, since Ford is in a little better shape that the other 2.
Also, with so many "imports" now being built on US soil, not sure import tarrifs would do a whole lot of good anyway. US car makers need to restructure from the top down. Everyone has to be willing to give--- and give a lot. Congress is not in the mood to hear anything about exhorbant white color salaries, bonuses, or UAW job bank payments. I expect to see Wagonner gone within 6 months--only reason he isn't gone already, is they are in such bad shape, no one else wants the job.
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