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85 Notchie Build by zkhennings
Started on: 07-08-2012 10:09 PM
Replies: 185 (6278 views)
Last post by: zkhennings on 10-19-2021 02:35 PM
zkhennings
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Report this Post07-14-2021 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks!

Page 5?

Test fit the Audi injectors, they are longer than the stock injectors and the nozzle sticks into the intake tract. I do not think it should be an issue, the O-ring is fully in the bore.



I am debating flipping the fuel rail so that the fuel enters the rail on the front of the motor instead of the rear just to keep the fuel away from the headers and exhaust crossover over the trans, but I think it will look and function fine with the braided fuel hose running over the rear top of the plenum. Even if the fuel line was on the front of the engine it still always has the risk of spraying fuel on the exhaust if it fails. I may still choose to flip it but it will require some minor fab to the mounting brackets and I have to keep everything low profile as the upper intake is pretty close to the fuel rail. The easiest way to do that would be to tig weld some additional metal to the fuel rail, and I don't love the idea of welding the fuel rail as there are little drops of fuel in it still. Maybe I can leave it in the sun to bake if it comes down to that.

Note: the UIM gaskets are not installed in the following pics and will add a little additional spacing.

After confirming that the injectors will work, I went ahead and torqued the LIM. The 3900 LIM has 2 fasteners that are impossible to get to with any kind of swivel joint or wobble extension that I had, I even took a poor 10mm socket to the grinder to make it as short as physically possible to try and get something to work. Nope.

Had a 10mm crows foot that I could put on the torque wrench but it was threatening to round the bolt head.

My buddy Chris was with me and suggested seeing if a 10mm wrench would fit over the 3/8" square of the torque wrench. Bingo, it fit beautifully, 3/8" = 0.375" and 10mm = 0.394", which is plenty close to put the open end of a wrench around a square without it slipping at all. Being a 10mm gear wrench it also still ratcheted which made it even easier. Calculated the required torque to get 18ftlbs at the end of the gear wrench, came out to around 13.5ftlbs at the end of the torque wrench.

The long intake manifold bolts that are TTY needed to be retorqued over and over and over to finally all remain at 18ftlbs. I am going to do a final pass after the gasket material settles the next time I work on the motor. The shorter bolts were happy after their initial torqueing.





Since I am planning to trim the unused coolant crossover features, I installed it without the gaskets. I need to get my belt routings and dog bone solution figured out before I take the grinder to it, my initial plan is to use the original lower two alternator mounting threaded holes to mount to a dog bone bracket as they are in the right location. I also may end up using all of the idlers, I have a new solution for belt routing that utilizes the stock tensioner in stock location, the belt will be a lot longer than it could be, but it might be nice to have the automatic tensioner. I can always change it in the future if it proves inconvenient.



And then I put the UIM and N* TB on the motor to see how it is going to look.



Pretty mean looking.

Also debating making the headers with mild steel and the rest of the exhaust with 304ss, the reason being I may get the headers jet hot coated if the price is right, comes with a lifetime warranty against any chipping flaking etc, and Jet Hot themselves recommend using mild steel since the coating does such a good job. I have had bad luck with DEI titanium wrap causing corrosion issues, and I need a thermal management solution. I am pricing it all out so see what makes sense. It would also look sweet as uncovered headers with the ceramic coating. I am glad I got the flanges made with 304ss regardless to avoid any corrosion at sealing surfaces. The mild steel is right around a little less than half the cost of the stainless, but it might not be enough to offset the price of the Jet Hot coating, I am waiting on a quote.

Just about time to get it mounted on the cradle now, stay tuned.
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Matthew_Fiero
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Report this Post07-14-2021 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Matthew_FieroClick Here to Email Matthew_FieroSend a Private Message to Matthew_FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This has been such an interesting read and journey. Keep up the good work! I look forward to the next update!
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zkhennings
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Report this Post07-26-2021 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for checking it out Matthew.

My next steps were taking subframe out of the Fiero and getting the motor mocked up on it. The garage and basement needed some serious cleaning up to fit the subframe in it as well. Ended up giving away a bunch of old toys (RC planes, helicopters, bunch of Estes rockets, etc) to make space since I never used those things anymore. I spent about 8 hours total over a few days doing nothing but cleaning and organizing and getting rid of crap.

But I finished and could finally get around to this.



I had installed the crank pulley prior to taking it off the stand. I used the crank pulley bolt to pull it on, I know you aren't supposed to yada yada but if it is nice and clean, greased, and it goes on without a fuss, then I don't think there's much risk of it pulling threads.

Installed the main seal with a piece of pipe. I think it probably isn't supposed to be installed this deep. There is a lip all the way around that this seal is up against, and the crank snout is the same diameter so it should not effect the seal wear negatively. But looking at the factory installation tool it seems to install it flush.



I got these ARP flywheel bolts for a Nissan, they were the perfect length.



Installed the new flywheel. I torqued them to the ARP spec for the Nissan. At 70ftlbs they seemed perfect.



Cleaned up my Spec clutch that I had on the 2.8, it doesn't have a lot of miles, it held well, and it looked good still. I brakecleaned the friction disc excessively.



My buddy Roman was helping me out and he cleaned up the pressure plate with some scotchbrite and sandpaper on a block.



ARP bolts for an SOHC Honda for pressure plate. They were a couple millimeters longer than stock, but I installed the starter and spun the assembly around and it cleared everything fine.



Installed the clutch with clutch alignment tool, I still had it.



Got the cradle out of the car pretty easily, not too much to disconnect. Hit it with degreaser and pressure washed it. Roman was getting some of the more stuck grime off.







This transmission is definitely leaking from somewhere that is not the axle seals as they are pretty new. I intend to put an F23 in this with a LSD so I am going to not care for now.

Installed the new motor mount on the oil pan to see how the stock mount location lines up. Had to trim the cradle dolly so it fit deeper into the engine crane as it was interfering with the crane's legs. Took a little trial and error, but got it done.





The LZ9 motor mount (3800 as well) needs a step in the mount welded to the cradle. Mine is flat quarter inch steel so the mount was not sitting at the height it wants to be at and the engine is tilted at an angle. I think I may just use this stock mount setup and make a new mount on the cradle that it will work with. I am going to do a bunch of welding on the cradle anyways to reinforce it.



And here is the misalignment to the stock mounting location for the 2.8. Red circle to highlight the bolt hole.



Next steps will be to fabricate a new motor mount and weld it in. Might fab a little alternator mount before installing it all in the car to figure out my clearances and routings for things.

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Report this Post07-27-2021 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I settled on a parking brake solution, I have gone with the Wilwood MC4 calipers for a few reasons:

They have sliders built in with a plate with threaded holes you can bolt your bracket to.

It has the parking brake arm and cable holder built in along with a tension spring to keep the arm retracted.

It is pretty lightweight being cast aluminum at just over 3lbs.

They have hydraulic capabilities as well if you want to run a hydraulic handbrake in tandem with the mechanical parking brake which could be a cool possibility that I doubt I will pursue.

Here are pics from a few angles as I had a hard time finding good pics online when doing research. I found these brand new for less than $240 for the pair.







My intention is to upgrade to Wilwood aluminum 4 pot brakes at some point, they are inexpensive and perform very well while also not being so heavy and massive that they are unnecessary. I considered the Seville rear calipers but I still needed to make brackets for them and I would have to get rid of them and implement a solution like this MC4 regardless when going to the 4 pots. I have considered trying to adapt a knuckle with drum brake built in, but they are complicated, seize when the car hasn't driven in a while, and they are a general headache.

I will possibly fab the brackets myself but I think I will make a thinner sheet metal prototype and then have them cut out of thicker metal by OSHcut or similar. I am hoping that I can make the stock parking brake cables work with these, it will be awesome if the cable jacket ends fit into the holes. They also sell a DIY Universal cable kit that could definitely work in the Fiero as you cut them down to length yourself. Here are the installation instructions with the universal parking brake cables.
I also bought all new calipers pads and rotors just to be safe with all this extra power, and because it was all pretty cheap.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-27-2021).]

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post07-27-2021 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When you do your exhaust, it will likely have to be routed around your transmission's shift cables, so unless you want to redo your exhaust pipes a second time, probably you should get your final transmission installed first.

Apparently, the Isuzu trans can actually be a good one, provided that you replace the cheap GM-spec guts with Japanese parts:
https://www.j-body.org/foru...12246&t=12241&arch=1
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Report this Post07-28-2021 10:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the tip, I was thinking I would do custom cables or a partial linkage system with the F23 which might give me some flexibility. I also have a set of Getrag and Isuzu cables I can mix and match with customization to the shift assembly on the trans.

In regards to exhaust I intend to keep it close to the motor and tuck the crossover as close as possible to leave as much space for the cables and intake piping as possible. I also may run out of time and money and be forced to temporarily run the stock headers, and the new trans and headers could be a simultaneous winter project.

But I could also buy another Isuzu as this one has around 200,000 miles on it already and get that one all cryo treated and done up nice and ready to swap in, but I do want to have a limited slip and I haven't come across any true LSDs for the Isuzu. So I am back to F23.

Hopefully this is all down the road and the Isuzu will last me a while, everyone says the 02 WRX transmission is like glass, but mine has lasted 280,000 miles now, and I like to believe it is because I drive smoothly. Hopefully the Isuzu lasts me too.

I will say I beat the crap out of the Isuzu with the 2.8, I did burnouts every single day with it, and generally drove it very hard. It has held up just fine. The cam in the LZ9 should make it less torquey down low, another factor that may help the Isuzu survive.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been reading through all the Mega/Microsquirt literature and came across the suggestion to use this EGR valve as a simple on/off idle valve. It is only $25 which is nothing compared to the manufacturer's non stepper idle valves (Microsquirt cannot run a stepper motor without an add-on).

I plan to keep it simple and just get the car running and idling without any idle valve, but as it gets colder in Fall (hopefully the car will be driving by then) I can implement the idle valve as it becomes necessary on those colder New England mornings.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That valve looks like it is meant for two small vacuum lines. Idle air is more like a 3/8" - 1/2" air passage...

You might be able to find a throttle body with a TPS and PWM idle valve.

Older Ford for instance has a PWM valve mounting right on the throttle body, along with a TPS:

Source: https://www.therangerstatio...-3-0l-ranger-intake/

The Vulcan Taurus/Ranger stuff might be too small in bore diameter, but older Mustang might work (notice the 2-pin idle valve connector):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233906414956

Edit to add something cheaper with a nicer mounting flange:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164982479456

I would suggest walking the junkyard row-by-row; I found a few parts that way.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-29-2021).]

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zkhennings
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Report this Post08-03-2021 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the input, when doing research the Foxbody idle valve looked like it would work as well as some VWs have a similar setup. Both valves are pricey though, so a walk around a junkyard would be in order if I need to find one. I think the VW ones have nipples on them and would be easy to get hooked up. I am going to stick the N* throttle body due to its size and the fact that I already machined an adapter for it. I was planning to plug the hole for the stock IAC and just have a nipple in the plug that I would use to hook up to a solenoid valve. I could also just machine a pathway though the side of the adapter I machined and just plug the stepper motor mounting hole, and thread a nipple right into the adapter. The EGR valve is maybe more of a recommendation for a motorcycle install since that is the more intended use of the Microsquirt.

If anyone has any recommendations for a suitable on/off solenoid valve from an industrial supplier that would be great. I could also hit up some of the valve suppliers that my company uses and see if I can get any free samples of a larger valve.

I am not too worried though as I can always just hold the throttle open a little in the meantime.

I checked out how the MC4 calipers will fit, I had to take off the arm assembly and rotate it 120* for it to fit. I think I will have to make a few modifications to make it work, but it should work. Mounting it is going to be a little tricky, I thought I would be able to pickup on the bolts used for mounting the bearing hub assembly, but it might be a little too tight to the inside of the rotor. I am also debating replacing the toe link with a rod end assembly so that I can use the steering arm as a mounting location. Mounting to the top strut bolt would be a possible second mounting location. There is a lot of space between the outside of the caliper and the inside face of the wheel, so the mounting bracket will go over the caliper. It will replace the stock gold mounting bracket, the slider pins thread into it, and I will use the same thread and hole spacing on the bracket I make. I gotta do some CAD (the cardboard kind) to figure some of these details out.

Red lines to show space between caliper and wheel.



Red lines to show the minimum sized spacer I will have to machine to get the arm assembly to clear the rim. It will not affect the function as the depth of the mechanism is easily adjustable. The spacer does give me the ability to rotate the mechanism to any angle I want and I may utilize this. I will most likely have to cut the portion of the cast aluminum arm that holds the parking brake cable and make a bracket for the Fiero parking brake cables to get them away from the back of the tire. But we will see.



Wish I took a better pic, I just have the caliper held in place with some zip ties. Looks close to the strut mount, but it can be shifted away with plenty of clearance, I ended up putting the strut in place to make sure there was clearance and all was well.



Went to a car show after taking my GF to the motocross track (this picture was taken after the show ended), that Foxbody is my friend Matt's, it's awesome, about as modified as it gets including all later model knuckles for disc brakes and 5 bolt pattern, full tubular subframe and suspension, welded frame stiffeners, and a Ford racing short block with Trick Flow heads and intake and lots of other goodies. My friend with the 944 that burned down has a really nice E39 540i that you can catch a glimpse of, and hidden is a really nice Fiesta ST running over 20 pounds of boost. People liked the WRX pulling the dirtbike.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 08-03-2021).]

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zkhennings
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Report this Post08-09-2021 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been working on the motor mount doing some "CAD" I got a piece of 1/4" steel plate, going to try cutting it today with a jigsaw, I have heard this works.

But in the meantime I have been working on some actual CAD. I have been debating just using the stock headers, but with the rest of the work that has gone into the motor it seems like such a waste. My original header design was good practice, but the CAD model was lacking. The headers would have been tucked right against the block and interfered with some components, the collectors would have been way over/in the transmission, and they needed to get redone. I was shooting for 30" primaries for the original headers, but it is a lot of exhaust to have in the Fiero's bay.

This time I worked backwards with my collector placement guiding the routing. I made the collector a little shorter as it was excessively long. I made sure to leave clearance for the oil filter and starter. I have only completed the firewall side but I am happy with it, I need to get the engine in the car to confirm that they will fit with the transmission cables and whatnot. The way the CAD has been done I can easily edit the angle of the header flange if I do have the room to tuck it closer to the block. The primaries are all within an inch around 24" long, so not too much shorter than what I intended.

Here are some pics of the side I completed. Compare with the image of the engine on the cradle in an above post to visualize the clearances and placement of collector required.







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Report this Post08-10-2021 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those collectors are too short. What'st the primaries diameter?
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zkhennings
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Report this Post08-11-2021 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Collector is 5" long as depicted here, primaries are 1.75", collector output is 3". I have to sacrifice a little performance for packaging.
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Report this Post08-11-2021 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Collector is 5" long as depicted here, primaries are 1.75", collector output is 3". I have to sacrifice a little performance for packaging.

Whoa Zack! They are pretty big and the collector being so short wont help either. But then again, space is your concern. Can't wait to hear it roar!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 08-11-2021).]

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zkhennings
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Report this Post08-12-2021 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been doing some research on collector length and it is all over the place. Engine Masters found longer collectors makes more power but they weren't running a full exhaust. It is also confusing what collector length refers to, is it the length of tube in transition? AKA where the pipes merge to where the exhaust opens back up to final size? That is what I have been measuring as collector length when I say 5". Does the Y pipe I will be implementing have no effect on this? I planned to do the Y pipe with 3" tubing and have it merge into a 3" exhaust, but I could have the headers exit into 2.5" tubing that I open up into 3" tubing within the Y pipe. Would this create a longer collector effect? I wanted to keep it simple with a full 3" setup, and the 1.75" primaries blend into 3" tubing nicely.

I still have time to tweak my exhaust design before producing it so any input is welcome.
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Report this Post08-13-2021 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the collector length should be fine. have you looked into anti reversion devices? they're basically small expansion volumes just after the collector, from the limited reading I have done, they appear to pick up power and torque across the board.

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Report this Post09-03-2021 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had a long vacation scheduled for end of August and had a ton of work to finish up prior to leaving so I haven't had a ton of time to work on the Fiero, but here is what I had managed to get done.

I started with some good old "CAD" creating a mount with cardboard that lines up with the cradle properly.







Here it is semi in place while attached to motor.



Got a 1/4" thick piece of mild steel plate to make this with, probably a little overkill but I don't intend to keep the stock cradle forever.



Started to cut out the metal, I tried using a jigsaw with metal cutting blades, but an angle grinder is much faster.



Test fitting the cut and drilled holes to the rubber mount.



Cut and prepped all the metal pieces for welding.



Started tacking it together.



And then I welded it with my mig. My mig could not handle the thickness of the metal very well, I was welding at full power and got a wicked sunburn. I made the mistake of not chamfering the pieces enough, but it will work. However I am going to pick up a new welder in the very new future, as I got to do a bunch of welding on the bus too pretty soon. The 90* inside welds were the worst, the welder needed a lot of time to penetrate properly, I had the wire feed speed set as low as possible.

So yea, it came out kinda ugly, but I will grind them all down.







In place kinda, the crossmember needs to be removed, I left it long for the mount to weld up to the new crossmember I will be welding in. I got a piece of 3x2" 11 gauge steel tubing for the new crossmember. I got some scrap metal from the bus to weld to the cradle to keep its shape when I cut the crossmember out to weld in the new one.



Still gotta pull the trans off but the cradle has been stripped down and ready to start cutting and welding. Arrow pointing at the new crossmember to be.



I have to go fill my argon tank and get a new welder and I will be back at it this weekend.
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Report this Post09-03-2021 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I saw a TIG torch in one of your pictures, why didn't you just use that? Honestly, I've taking a liking to TIG, I'm not great at it, but I enjoy the enormous amount of control it offers.

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Report this Post09-24-2021 08:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ignorant prodigyClick Here to Email ignorant prodigySend a Private Message to ignorant prodigyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
update?
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zkhennings
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Report this Post10-08-2021 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Eric I needed a new MIG anyways, the wire feed setup on mine is faulty, its old and large and not very adjustable. And I have a need for a welder that can weld on 110V to be able to do the frame repair on the bus at my apartment.

I do want to practice more with the TIG but I am much more comfortable welding structural stuff with a MIG, I have a few heavier duty projects I can practice the TIG on.

In terms of update I have had a ton of work, tried to get ahead of a bunch of it at the end of August before going on vacation, went on a ten day vacation, came back and got the Rona, quarantined, had a ton of work to catch up on after that, then had a friend's wedding where I was best man and also the officiant. WRX needed some TLC, my friend's E39 540i destroyed the timing guides and I helped him do his timing chain, and I have been getting going on the bus because I really want to use it this winter. I turned 30 (ugh) and took Bday money and bought a new welder and I have finally gotten back to working on Fiero. My crazy work push is almost coming to an end and I will use some PTO to take a bunch of days off to chug through Fiero work. Also my knee is significantly better which has been really nice.

I removed all the trim from the bus and pulled off the fenders and lower skirts to access the frame easier. I removed all the windows and separated all the outer fiberglass panels from the metal skeleton. I need to pull the rear cap off of the bus to fully remove the fiberglass sides, and remove the wood flooring and I will be able to do a thorough frame repair. I also discovered that the seat frames that came out of the bus are close to the perfect height to support the sides of the bus when I remove all the floor cross braces. I am also considering getting a wet sandblasting kit to use with my pressure washer to de-rust the frame.

Windows removed.




Friend's E39 540i, the amount of work required to do the timing chain is insane. But a very well engineered machine.




I bought a Harbor Freight Titanium 170, I did a lot of research before buying, I wanted to get a used Miller but there were very few available. This welder is sweet though, it can use a spool gun attachment to do Aluminum too. It is an inverter based welder so it sounds funny when it welds, but it seems to weld really well. It runs off 110V or 220V which was big for me, it can weld well over 1/4" steel on 220V and it comfortably welds 1/8" steel on 110V, and the bus is primarily 1/8" or thinner so it should be perfect. The knobs are infinitely adjustable which is nice, it has a delay on the feed speed so you have time to form a puddle before the feed goes to full speed, it has post flow, and it has some inductance setting I think? The feed mechanism is really nice, everything is tool-less, and the quality of everything seems really high with the exception of the gas hose which feels super cheap. It cost just under $600, and it only weighs 25lbs! It is incredibly tiny and portable and I might start pulling in some additional income doing small welding jobs for people. So far so good!




I stripped the cradle, removed the transmission and mounts, removed the sway bar and control arms.



I cut the motor mount off and ground it flush, shaved off the ears that hold the springs that support the exhaust on the firewall side of the cradle as they interfere with the new crossmember, and I cleaned up areas where I will weld bracing to the cradle before removing the original front crossmember. The bracing I am using is one of the seat frames from the bus, it is straight, strong, and pretty thick steel. I cut some extra metal off of it and ground the paint off where I will weld it to the cradle. I also started to cut the crossmember off but only cut it off halfway where the bracing may make it harder for me to access the crossmember with the angle grinder. Then I welded it with 3 strong tacks per corner.





That's all for now but progress has kicked back off and I'm itching to get this done. I have decided no headers for now, it will add too much time and cost for my timeline and budget, but will be a cool future project. I will use the stock manifolds for now and help them flow better with any modifications I can make, and I will probably modify the old exhaust to work with it. It is 2.5", so I may decide to rebuild it with 3" stainless, especially as it is so short, but we will see when we get there.

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zkhennings
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Report this Post10-14-2021 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Had a few hours here and there this week after work to keep working on things.

I cut out the crossmember after the transmission mount.



Then I cut out the front facing wall of the remaining crossmember in a rectangular cutout so that I can butt the new crossmember up to it.



Time for some CAD, first made a cardboard tube by wrapping cardboard around the 3"x2" steel tubing. I used sharpie to draw in the corners to help me keep its shape.



I slid the CAD off the tube and trimmed it until it fit nicely.







I slid the CAD back onto the tubing and marked it with sharpie and cut it out with the angle grinder. I left some extra material so I could trim it down to the perfect fitment. Once it was very close I used the belt sander to get it nice and flat.











It fit really well so I prepped everything for welding, painted the inside with a rust reformer after cleaning it all up, and welded it up. I took my time and moved all around doing beads to keep things from warping. I wasn't worried about things twisting because the seat frame is very stiff, but I was worried about the front bushings warping closer to each other, so I periodically checked the distance between them. They stayed the same the entire time I welded in the new crossmember.

I painted the inside with half a microfiber towel on a wire I pulled through the tube a few times while it was saturated with rust reformer.



Then I cleaned up all the welding areas and got to welding. Welds came out decent, I realized near the end that I rush and will weld in weird positions where I cannot watch the bead sometimes, and those welds come out consistently worse than when I set up properly and can watch the weld. Things to change moving forwards.









I then welded the brace that was originally on the bottom of the crossmember back in. I figured that since it hadn't warped and the tube was welded in fully that I didn't have to worry about it anymore and I welded it on fast. Well the heat caused the bushings to move 1/16" closer together after that, I don't think it will cause me any issues but a good reminder that you really have to take your time if you can't move around as much with your welding. I also found some more rust and started doing some rust exploration.



I did not like what I saw, not pictured here but there were massive parts of the sleeve missing that were rusted out. I looked online and saw Rodney offered new weld in sleeves so I bought some and cut/hammered the old sleeves out.



I will fix all the rust in there, weld in new metal, and weld the new sleeves in when they arrive. Here you can mostly see the extent of what I removed.



And finally I spent time with the die grinder and some carbide bits to clean up the motor mount I welded, my arms are full of steel splinters right now.



Still have to box off the remaining original crossmember. I wanted to have the cradle all finished before posting but pics were backing up. More to come soon.

Also a question, should I leave the square tubing sealed off or add lightness to it by using a hole saw to cut some metal out of either the bottom or the sides? I don't want it to rust, and I am worried that if I leave it sealed that moisture will work its way in and rust it from the inside out.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-14-2021).]

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post10-15-2021 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How would moisture work its way into a sealed tube?

Anyway, besides water, oxygen is also needed for rust.

In the context of a steel tube structure, I once asked myself what would happen if all the oxygen atoms enclosed in the tubes were to combine with iron atoms in the steel tubes? How much wall thickness would be lost?

It turned out to be negligible, though I invite you to do the exercise for yourself.

********************************************************************************

Also note that the stock cradle isn't fully enclosed...

********************************************************************************

Probably the best thing you can do for rust is to sandblast whatever you can. Paint doesn't stick well to mill scale. Paint makes fish eyes around the silicon islands of your welds, so get rid of the islands.

Also sand/break sharp edges. Paint doesn't keep a constant film thickness around sharp convex edges. Surface tension pulls the paint away from sharp edges while the paint is still wet.
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Report this Post10-17-2021 03:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe I missed it, was there a reason in particular that you wanted to cut out the front crossmember? I cut and moved mine in a similar manner, and kinda wish I hadn't, as now I'm about to cut it out again and put it closer to the stock location to provide more room for an intercooler.

FWIW, Ford Coyote ARP flywheel bolts have the same pitch and diameter as 60V6 bolts, but, they have MASSIVE heads on them, if you run an aluminum flywheel, I would recommend running those bolts instead of the SR20 bolts, because they will help mitigate potential creep problems. the downside is that they are about .075" too long, and need to be shortened.

Pictured here are stock LX9 bolts, WOT Tech ARP bolts, and Ford Coyote ARP bolts on a Fidanza flywheel. the pictures showing thread protrusion include a .075" washer under the bolt head, with the washer, the Ford bolts hit the clutch disc.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



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zkhennings
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Report this Post10-18-2021 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Eric, good to know about the Ford bolts if I go with an aluminum flywheel, I have been considering that as an upgrade if I go to F23 along with a new clutch.

I chose to move the crossmember because it is in the way of the oil filter, I know there are other solutions to solve this but I had some other considerations I took into account. I will have better access to the starter as well as a side benefit. The hump in the stock crossmember is close to where I want to put an alternator/where AC would go if I had it and may make that an issue. Oil pan will come off easier in car as well.

For reference:



The stock crossmember is pretty flimsy, I wanted a beefier member in the cradle to help take the additional forces of the new motor. I wanted additional support for the trans mounting location as well. And I wanted a strong member to tie the motor mounting plate to, it will stiffen the whole cradle up to tie the motor mount into the new crossmember.

In regards to corrosion, I am not sure how moisture would get into a sealed tube, but moisture seems to find a way. It would be nice to lighten the crossmember up a little bit and maybe give some access to thoroughly paint it inside. But it is also nice and strong right now so I may just leave it. And I will make sure to sand everything well and take down corners prior to painting. I like to save old flap wheels for the angle grinder for paint prep as they don't remove a ton of material. I have some Eastwood DTM epoxy primer and some Eastwood Chassis paint I was going to paint the cradle with, I will probably POR-15 anywhere where I clean up some rust.

Waiting on the cradle bushings and sleeves and I will get back at it. I may go prop the cradle up with the front bushing mount ends in cups of Evaporust to clean them up in the meantime to minimize how much work I need to do. I still have more phosphoric acid I could use too.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 10-18-2021).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-18-2021 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

the Ford bolts hit the clutch disc.



I have the Ford bolts and they don't hit my disc. I run a solid disc.

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Report this Post10-18-2021 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Thanks Eric, good to know about the Ford bolts if I go with an aluminum flywheel, I have been considering that as an upgrade if I go to F23 along with a new clutch.

I chose to move the crossmember because it is in the way of the oil filter, I know there are other solutions to solve this but I had some other considerations I took into account. I will have better access to the starter as well as a side benefit. The hump in the stock crossmember is close to where I want to put an alternator/where AC would go if I had it and may make that an issue. Oil pan will come off easier in car as well.


The stock crossmember is pretty flimsy, I wanted a beefier member in the cradle to help take the additional forces of the new motor. I wanted additional support for the trans mounting location as well. And I wanted a strong member to tie the motor mounting plate to, it will stiffen the whole cradle up to tie the motor mount into the new crossmember.




all good reasons to move/replace the crossmember, I moved mine to facilitate better mounting of the powertrain, in some ways, it was a significant gain, in others, not so much. I'm currently rebuilding my front crossmember to make more room for a intercooler. I would consider dog legging the crossmember by the transmission to open up a little more room up there.



 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
I have the Ford bolts and they don't hit my disc. I run a solid disc.


 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
the pictures showing thread protrusion include a .075" washer under the bolt head, with the washer, the Ford bolts hit the clutch disc.


Additionally, most people run a sprung hub.

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Report this Post10-19-2021 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, I intend to cut it at an angle before boxing it off to gain additional clearance, and it should make the trans mount stronger as well. I may get to this today and finish that off.

I am still waiting on the weld in sleeves so I think today I will clean up and organize my working area and get the cradle ends into some cups of Evaporust and leave them there for a while. The Evaporust is good at not removing extra metal, but it takes longer to work, so it is a good candidate for rust removal if you have the time to leave it soaking.

I may also get the motor mount tacked in today if my brother is around to help me reassemble everything. Everything will still have to be removed for welding and paint, but then I look forward for the final installation of motor and trans onto the cradle, it has been a real hassle with space having everything scattered in the garage.

I have a few odds and ends to finish with the motor, I need to paint the valve covers and intake and install the valve covers, make a block off plate where the VVT actuator was installed in the timing cover, Make a coolant fill point to replace where the plastic fill neck was as I believe it will interfere, modify the rear exhaust manifold to flow better and maybe move where the O2 sensor goes, install the exhaust manifolds, install the coolant crossover with gaskets, figure out the press fit heater line coming out of the coolant crossover, and install the thermostat.

Then I can test fit the motor into the bay and figure out where I want to run fuel lines, coolant hoses, and the wiring.

Still have to make a new battery tray, drop the tank and install the fuel pump, and figure out the alternator position and belt routing. I may order a few LZ9 idler pulleys to play around with.

I intend to take Nov 6th thru 13th to do nothing but get s*** done with the Fiero, I hope I am able to get that to happen with my work schedule. Before then I would like to have the cradle modifications finished and painted, and have everything installed on the motor. I think I will be able to bust the majority of remaining items out during this time and get the wiring all done.

I am not sure if the car will start this year or not, but that is the goal. Then put it away before winter because my parents will use the garage and get it driving nicely in the spring so I can enjoy it next year. I have a lot of work to do on the bus too so we will see what happens.
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