Engine man just likes to dream and come up with off the wall engine swaps and odd ball **** ....Just do a search on his screen name and look at all the "what about this engine" and "this engine swap". He has owned one engine swapped Fiero that I know of and it lasted a whole week and has been on blocks since then....So arguing with him isn't gonna learn him anything......
And **** a 305....307 all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd rather have my 4.9 then a 305, because it bolts right up to a Fiero transmission without adapter plates, is much lighter, more torque and HP, and runs via SFI. Better gas mileage as well. And it actually fits well into the engine bay with the factory water pump. Downside is there is very little aftermarket for the 4.9, however I'm not sure how much aftermarket parts would help a 305 to the point of replacing pretty much everything.
But of course, as others have said, it's your swap, your money, your life. Nothing I can do about it, nor would I want too...unless you want to pay me or ask for my opinion/advice.
There you go engine man... even a young kid understands. No offense Mattwa.
No. That 150 HP 305 also has 250 ft lbs of torque. It would take a pretty stressed out 2.8 to get there and reliablity would come into question IMO. I still don't see why everyone thinks you're a dog if you can't run in the 12's or better. There is fast, and there is stupid fast. Not everyone wants stupid fast, not everyone wants a V6, not everyone wants a SC or a turbo. And some of us prefer torque over HP. Ask the 4.9 guys if they feel shorted. Yes, I can do much better than a 305. So what?
The 250 ftlbs just mean that what little fun is to be had is over by 3500 RPM. A 150 HP 2.8 is not stressed at all. An iron head 3.4 swap would get the car 150 HP and be a lot easier and cheaper than the 305 swap. A NA 3800 S2 will get 200 HP. Last I checked, a 4.9 is a pretty cheap easy swap. If someone's going to the trouble and expense of a Chevy swap, it doesn't make any sense to use peanut cam smog motor iron intake boat anchor considering what the other options for the same price are.
quote
Originally posted by engine man:
maybe the 305 is free and all He has is enough money to get a street dreams adapter who knows who cares and a 305 you can get a set of used votec heads for about $100 and slap them on and it will have enough head flow to make power then you can get a cam for cheap and on & on so it can be done a little at a time . I personally have my Owen ides on what engines i like just like you have your ideas on what engines you like and we both have are Owen set of reasons why . are either of are choices wrong or reasons bad no it just is our tast of what we like
If someone's that poor, he needs to lower his sights from a Chevy swap and spend his resources on more important things in life, like getting the education he needs to increase his income.
The only Owen I know used to be into turbo Volvos but now has a turbo 4 cylinder Lotus Esprit. I don't think he'd agree with you about engines.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-28-2012).]
...hello all...first post after lurking here for a bit....
...this reminds me of the 305 stroker, supercharged, vs 350/383 discussions on thirdgen.org (or any F-body site for that matter!) Same back and forth, but entertaining at times.
So, why am I interjecting? Well, a) I am looking to get back into the Fiero game to replace a loss from years back and b) I just so happen to have cars - virtually identical in weight and configuration - that house the 3.8L SC and the 5.3L LS4 in a 2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG and a 2005 GXP. So, same weight, same inital balance, slight differences in wheels, shocks, and brakes, but overall not really all that different than if you did this "swap" in the Fiero and wanted to compare...which actually now that I have owned both, I'd say I wish I could find 2 Fiero's to build...and won a lottery...
I have not modified either engine in any way, unless you count a K&N as a "mod"...not. So, seriously, I am speaking from factory, out of the box performance. I think that qualifies me as a baseline at the best of times.
Considering that I am more autocross and a canyon carver than I am a straight line racer...take that with a grain of salt too. Not that I have anything against a drag race, but that is simply brute force over bloody ignorance IMHO. Call me a bigot or what you will, but I like the full package.
Ok, enough preamble.
Both cars pull well. Both cars handle well for FWD. Both cars are very well balanced. I have embarassed BMW's galore with both cars. But, there are subtle differences. The biggest is that the V8 requires more finesse, while the 3.8 you can mash all day long.
The drags
In a rolling start - the 5.3 beats the 3.8 From a standing start - the 3.8 gets of the line faster. Why? The 5.3 roasts every single tire I have used off the line. You cannot hook up and FWD does not help in the weight transfer business. So in a 1/4 mile, it is a dead heat time wise. Even with traction control on, the 3.8 gets such a jump due to wheelspin, it makes the difference moot. Again, I am talking stock. Stock pulley, stock injectors, stock plugs, stock wires...stock stock stock.
Moral - if you can control the wheelspin, you will get a slight advantage with a V8. A simple pulley change to a 3.6 or a 3.2 inch dia pulley and things would even up in a hurry.
The street
There is nothing like the out of the box torque of the 5.3. The rumble from the back end is sweet, but then I like the V8 rumble. It is why I still have an L98 TA. The 5.3 makes me just that much more confident in passing, in a rolling start (stop light to stop light) and in dry pavement horsing around. The 3.8 is a much smoother engine to me. It is my preferred car for rain and ice/snow driving.
Advantage - 5.3 ONLY because of the sound. I never really get to explore the upper end of either engine on the street (where the stock 3.8 runs out of breath a little earlier)...so TIE outside sound.
The roads/curves.
Advantage 3.8L. Believe it or not, the understeer due to the weight of the 5.3 v the 3.8 is enough to make me think twice. Even with the OOTB stock tires on the GXP that are larger than the rears - to induce oversteer by giving the fronts more grip...well..at the limits it does not help. In RWD, you can feather the throttle. In FWD...well...it is really a touchy pedal foot now...too little and who cares...too much and you are really understeering. It is a razor edge sometimes, especially on mountain highways with a little bit of gravel on the road.
For a Fiero.
My main concern would be the weight difference and the placement of said weight. With the midmount car like a Fiero, I'd be concerned that the weight balance was too far aft and too far off to one side, asking me to ballast the front better. I've gone really sideways in a car that we have...and it is a midmount 6...ready for this...cover your ears Ralph...a 1968 Corvair Monza with Powerglide...yup...fun as heck...but it bit back when you treated her poorly. Plus, a 2M4 in my life was lost to oversteer...long story.
The 3.8 with sublte changes can generate way more horsepower and torque than you need. I have a few friends with GTP's that are scary, and with litlle tweeks keep up with the 5.3 easily. Plus, given the 3.8's long production run and the SC version being in plenty of vehicles, the availability of go fast parts and vendors for the 3.8 are much greater. For the marginal increase in power, the 5.3 offers little more outside sound and looks. I take both the 3.8 GTP and 5.3 GXP to shows, and they both get comments...but in North America, the V8 gets just that much more notice.
Conclusion.
I love the 3.8. It has been out FOREVER, and is virtually bulletproof. I have see this engine blown to extremes, and it still keeps on coming. I have experienced this engine in Bonnevilles, in Park Avenues, got a thrill in a Grand National, a Monte Carlo, you name it. I have always had a healthy respect for it, and no Fiero owner should hang his or her head in shame for using this for an upgrade. Putting an LS1, LT1, or even my old friend the L98 into a Fiero would seem a bit silly - mainly from a weight and balance and value for the dollar standpoint. If anyone here slags the 3.8, they have no clue as to what this thing can do for the fraction of the cost as an LSx generation engine.
One word of advice though...get the Series III 3.8. Just trust me. Get that one.
Heck, my favorite car in the family stable is a 6 - a 1968 E-Type Series 1 1/2 (Canadian version with 3 SU carbs etc)...technically a Series II with some slight changes...but that is an INLINE six...and I love it much more than the Series III with the V12...but that is an inline engine and another whole discussion on power generation...
Is a V8 a waste? NO. Is it cool? HELL YEAH. Would I do it...well, I just said I would probably do both if I could find the $$$. It sounds nice, it looks great, it can do things NA that you need a SC to get out of the venerable 3.8L. I am sure, as I do now with the GXP, learn the subtlties of the weight distribution and immediate torque. Would I prefer it over a 3.8 SC? In that type of a car, probably not. A 6 seems to live well there, and I do not need to take advantage of the fuel saving (read cylinder tricks) that the LS4 needs for fuel economy. The Fiero was never a V8 car, and many of the exotics are 6's or 12's. I have my V8's (TA GTA WS6, Firebird LS1 Convertible, IROC (boat anchor LB9)...so I am not for want there anyway. My opinion - V8's belong in a front engine/rear drive configuration for balance...and it is what I prefer.
In short. If you have only one Fiero...and a budget...do the 3.8L SC. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, there are simply more go fast parts, it would fit easier from the diagrams and knowledge of both powerplants, there are a gaggle of 3.8 blocks to be had, and in a car with the weight of the Fiero, it will power you more than enough. Take my advice and transfer the $$ you save in to interior, suspension, paint, and other mods to round out what will be a cool vehicle.
If you really want a 7 second car...really...a Fiero is NOT IT. Period.
Sorry for the lengthy post. Hope everyone here is well.
[This message has been edited by Edmonchuck (edited 02-04-2013).]
One of the best and most well put responses ever. My favorite part is the one of each theory. I only disagree with the thought that certain V8's are a waste of time. I really don't think that's true just because something else is "better" of faster. Any Fiero over 200 HP is going to be fun, and any V8 can bust that with very little expense. Mine is a 3800, I wish I had an old school 327 parked right next to it.
I wish I had an old school 327 parked right next to it.
Magic numbers...that 327...one of my favorite engines of all time! ...buddy had one with a tri-carb set up...nice...
I also like the 400SB (Pontiac or Olds)...and the Rat 454...
Thank you for the compliment BTW. I appreciate it.
I will say one thing. I don't think I said other V8's were a waste of time per se. I think I actually said a V8 swap was not a waste of time, but other blocks outside the LS4 seemed silly IMHO. You are 100% correct that in a car as light as a Fiero, 200HP is fun. 300-350HP would be my upper limit though. Anything much more and you really are getting past the design limits of the car, so if you are remotely serious about taking that power to a road course...the amount of chassis re-engineering, additional braking power, suspension upgrades, tire/wheel thought, etc... would be huge just so you don't kill yourself! Even so...I wouldn't dream of taking that beast out in any rain, dew, frost, slightly bad tires, highway with oil stains, chance of the passenger farting so hard he loses 5 lbs - blows me sideways...and my projectile vomiting can't compensate for the increased inertial force...etc. ...you'd be bass ackwards in no time in a 400HP beast...especially given the driving "talent" of most people on North American roads! der..der...der...mash da lowd pedal...der...why is I backwerds? Hu-yuck!
Don't get me wrong, I like the LS1, LT1, and L98. However, I focused on the LS4 for a couple of reasons.
1. It is intentionally a shorter overall length to shoe horn it into a FWD chassis like a GXP. 2. It is also already intended to be transversely mounted. 3. It is light and packs the fuel saving tech right from thje start.
Given all this, and my desire for a good balance with little effort in rebuilding the chassis, I'd consider no other powerplant. Being not that much bigger than the 3.8 (from the eyeball test between the GXP and the GTP), it should not throw off the car too badly if I were to go the V8 route. Plus, you said it...it is probably the closest thing displacement wise to a 327...and as snappy...so win win. The downside...the engine is $$$$$$$$$$$ with all the tech it needs.
The LT1, LS1, L98 etc are simply too big IMHO to really warrant the effort to play with. They are longitudinal mounted normally...and I am a firm believer in form following function in design. Their accessories are even weighted to take this into account. Sure, they are great engines and if I were building a "traditional" car layout...they would be my choice OVER an LS4. Even if they are like the current exotics and are mid mount longitudinal engines...I would pick the LS1, LS6, LT1 etc over the LS4. Weight, form, less @#(&*@$( around, purpose built with the shortened crank and accessories...all adds up to why I personally feel that other V8 engines are a little silly - read TOO MUCH EXTRA WORK! I will have to tune and ballast the chassis enough with the simple little extra weight of a V8. Yes, it isn't that much bigger...but at 160 km/h and a turn...a couple kg's and slightly offest potentially could make the difference between a good day...and a last day. Plus, I am inherently lazy and I have other V8's...
...but again... $ for $, the 3.8 SC is just that much shorter, has that much more go goodies, and will hit that magic 300 HP mark (using the L32 especially)...for far far far less $$$ and far less mucking around, chassis tuning, cuting, fabricating, etc...at least from what I see in an engineering standpoint..I think you just can't go wrong in this application (Fiero chassis) with an L32 or older version. I am open to be proven wrong and educated to the right way...but I have been bass ackwards a couple of times in various midmounts when very subtle things were changed on the chassis...it is an easy place to get to.
...and for some who don't believe me...look at how they tune NASCAR v INDY v F1...look at the Cg of the car...weight and balance are as crucial, if not more so, than brute HP.
We are doing "auto motive art" I have a sbc V8 fiero because a wanted a hot sbc in a small car. I have had sbc, and bbc corvettes ( at the same time ) The fiero is smaller, rare, rear wheel drive. putting the driveline in the trunk is better than putting just the bat in the trunk! I can't auto cross very well any more ( age = pain ) but i can surly bracket race. To that end i have killed some of the low speed power, I use a auto trans, a stall speed that is just a little low, and i will take off in 2nd if i have to to be consistant. I will do what i have to do to make it work. NONE of that makes it a "fast car " I want a consistant car, with a sbc. I made it to the 4th round with the pos 305 crossfire that i drove to work for 2 1/2 years in this fiero. It is slower than it could be. I post the vids anyway. I take the bashing. It is the price i pay to do it my way. After having a 63 vet, a 68 vet, a 83 z/28, a 68 442, a 68 road runner, a 231 ci engine will not do it for me. but here is the deal of the year, What ever works for you! Do it your way.
^Wow...nice matte finish. I am really impressed at how that really calms the car down and makes it look more refined. I am not a fan of matte finishes normally because they use pastels and make it look like a bad drywall job. This one works. I'd love to see more pictures of both the interior and exterior simply for ideas. No need to worry about me copying...I am 2,000 miles away! Feel free to PM me and I will send my e-mail.
I have no doubt that the engine is fun! ...but I also understand and appreciate how it could be a bit much for a daily...so a SC 3.8...yup
@FFIEROFRED...I'm old...lost left leg to cancer...still I play...and I do it my way. I still shake my head at the 305 with crossfire..wow. do it your way...as long as you hold your head high and have fun! It looks like you do...
Maybe you gotta be old like us, but there is just something about a carbed V8, some intangible that provides the kicks. You could maybe understand if you owned a big block Olds or something from the late 50's, early 60's when you were young, and inline sixes had 120 horses.
[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 02-05-2013).]
Maybe you gotta be old like us, but there is just something about a carbed V8, some intangible that provides the kicks. You could maybe understand if you owned a big block Olds or something from the late 50's, early 60's when you were young, and inline sixes had 120 horses.
Thanks archie when the straight six thing came up that is what I had in mind lol. Also I'm just 21 so age doesn't mean all that much its just what age group you hang/hung around...
When I mentioned a straight 6 (although I did have a 1968 F100 farm truck with an inline 300 that actually was pretty snappy on the low end), I was referring to the 1968 E-Type (XK-E for US) XK6 engine 4.2L 3SU carb version (not the de-tuned US version)...as I mentioned in my first post...
265hp out of the box...and sorry kids...beat most Vettes and others of the day...that is if the Lucas Electric crap didn't die on you...ahhhh, British Sports Car fun...
Inline motors are silky smooth...just long which limits their applications...ask Buick with their I8...or worse a straight 12!!!!
You HAVE TO mod them to get the power level up and then they compare very favorably.
I usually don't get involved in these kinds of discussions because they always turn into pissing matches.
While there are exceptions to every rule, IMHO, they don't compare as favorably as you'd like to make out.
Any engine can be built to make much more HP that they started out with. An LS376 could be built to make 600hp or 800hp or more, you name it. However, when you take ANY engine & start trying to do that, you get to the point where your reliability or longevity, starts to diminish. And you never know when you've reached that point until after the fact. Once you have that failure, then you have to figure if you went too far or if the engine builder did something wrong in the build, then you get to try again. All the while quikgta is driving his LS376/480 car to work. You hear stories about race engines, like 4 cyl. engines that make 900(pick a number)hp & can run 9's or 8's or 7's. You don't hear (or better yet you don't listen) the stories about these highly tuned engines having to be rebuilt after every pass, or every race weekend, or every 10 passes.
You only have to read PFF for a short time to find people who have had lesser engines modified to make big HP & have had or are still having problems with tuning, or reliability. Once you have had a failure & have had it fixed, you're always going to have that in the back of your mind wondering if it's going to happen again & when.
However, a stock LS376/480hp engine makes good power out of the box & can be driven anywhere at anytime. And just like ANY other engine, when you start to try to modify it to double it's power, you always will have to wonder when you've gone too far.
AS I said at the beginning of this post, there are exceptions to every rule, but more often than not, when you modify an engine that made 220hp stock to where it's making 500hp, you gotta wonder how long it's going to last.
Thanks
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 02-06-2013).]
I usually don't get involved in these kinds of discussions because they always turn into pissing matches.
While there are exceptions to every rule, IMHO, they don't compare as favorably as you'd like to make out.
Any engine can be built to make much more HP that they started out with. An LS376 could be built to make 600hp or 800hp or more, you name it. However, when you take ANY engine & start trying to do that, you get to the point where your reliability or longevity, starts to diminish. And you never know when you've reached that point until after the fact. Once you have that failure, then you have to figure if you went too far or if the engine builder did something wrong in the build, then you get to try again. All the while quikgta is driving his LS376/480 car to work. You hear stories about race engines, like 4 cyl. engines that make 900(pick a number)hp & can run 9's or 8's or 7's. You don't hear (or better yet you don't listen) the stories about these highly tuned engines having to be rebuilt after every pass, or every race weekend, or every 10 passes.
You only have to read PFF for a short time to find people who have had lesser engines modified to make big HP & have had or are still having problems with tuning, or reliability. Once you have had a failure & have had it fixed, you're always going to have that in the back of your mind wondering if it's going to happen again & when.
However, a stock LS376/480hp engine makes good power out of the box & can be driven anywhere at anytime. And just like ANY other engine, when you start to try to modify it to double it's power, you always will have to wonder when you've gone too far.
AS I said at the beginning of this post, there are exceptions to every rule, but more often than not, when you modify an engine that made 220hp stock to where it's making 500hp, you gotta wonder how long it's going to last.
Thanks
Archie
Yeah, I hate when discussions take a negative turn as you WILL NOT get that from me. I love sharing ideas and opinions and try NOT devalue others opinions.
I completely agree with you in General terms. But...in reference to the 3800SC I believe it is severely over engineered. The proof is in the pudding. The engine has been well documented to hold twice the stock HP numbers without issue. Just adding\changing "standard" features for a boosted engine will yield amazing results. For example adding a Inter-cooler is not only a major upgrade but is also safety net for the engine. I think all boosted engines should have an IC.
The same with the F23 trans its "rated" power handling level is vastly different than the actual.
Yeah, I hate when discussions take a negative turn as you WILL NOT get that from me. I love sharing ideas and opinions and try NOT devalue others opinions.
I completely agree with you in General terms. But...in reference to the 3800SC I believe it is severely over engineered. The proof is in the pudding. The engine has been well documented to hold twice the stock HP numbers without issue. Just adding\changing "standard" features for a boosted engine will yield amazing results. For example adding a Inter-cooler is not only a major upgrade but is also safety net for the engine. I think all boosted engines should have an IC.
The same with the F23 trans its "rated" power handling level is vastly different than the actual.
As much as I enjoy these 3800 vs V8 threads - Me thinks that some peeps, can't help themselves and create an account every so often, state they are a noob and stir the proverbial pot. Then they are never heard from again.
Now with that said - Lets try to look at this from outside the box...
It's Friday or Saturday night and you are the "other guy" with a Mustang / Challenger / Camaro / Corvette etc
You get blown away by a Fiero. As you cross the finish line you notice the look on your buddies faces - But only the side of there faces because they were focused on the Fiero that was 2 car lengths ahead of you, but you can see the dismay and humiliation in there eyes
Now later on you and your buddies all hook up - Like you always do at Denny's / Ihop / Country Kitchen for your (Up Until Now) Raging Pancake Victory Breakfast. You order some French Toast and try to act as if things aren't as bad as they seem. You are still their hero right? Until your buddies start in with the following type of comments
NOW which statement is going to have a bigger impact cause a kinda poisonous spider bite, powerful lingering ego crushing shame?
Oh man that Fiero was fast but it's okay we could tell it has a V8 in it.
OR
Dude you just got yer ass handed to you buy a 6 cylinder Fiero!
Just sayin - How the other guy and his entourage might perceive it
Pappy loves a Sleeper Weeeeooooo!
I was about to make a new post about this same topic, but with my own questions and own research, but your comment just made my decision for me. 3800 it is. If I ever get the money...
I guess that I will jump in here and give my opinion on this subject. I have some actual basis for an opinion on the 3800 versus a SBC. I happen to have at least one example of each type. My 3800s are SC models with one a virtually stock Series II (3.4 inch pulley) and the other one is a modified Series III (N* TV, VS cam, intercooler, 3.4 pulley). The Series II engine dynoes around 258 HP and 300 ft lbs of torque at the wheels and the series III is still around 300 HP and 300 ft lbs at the wheels. I could improve the numbers with a more aggressive tune, but like to stay toward the more reliable end of the spectrum. Both are quite a lot of fun to drive and relatively economical wrt fuel consumption/mpg (around 25-26 mpg at 70 plus, running A/C, and mostly on cruise control). All of my cars use the stock Getrag 282 manual transmission so you can do a better side by side comparison.
The SBC is a built 383 with fuel injection. I have not really tuned it well at this moment since I am working on other aspects of the restoration. However, I expect 400 plus HP and ft lbs of torque at the wheels. Since I want to keep my transmission and axles intact, I do not do a clutch dump in this car! I know that the HP is over 300 based on a preliminary dyno but do not remember the exact number. This vehicle is a bit scary when you punch the accelerator but manageable. I will do another dyno after full tuning is complete and let people know the results.
Everything being said, I like all the cars for greatly improved performance as compared to the stock engine. The 3800s are my favorite but I really enjoy the raw power of the SBC. Therefore, I recommend one of each for everybody's collection. BTW, my turbo 3.4 engined car also has decent HP and a similar mpg rating but I have not dynoed it as of this date. I get the best of both worlds and pick the car of the day based on the mood of the moment.
Nelson
[This message has been edited by hnthomps (edited 05-11-2014).]
I too, have a 3800 sc and a 350 small block, carbed. I drove them back to back last Wednesday. The sc car was driven to work, during my lunch hour and then home again. Lots of power , lots of fun, but much like a regular daily driver. ( except for the super charger whine) On the other hand, I drove the v8 car to pick up take out at the local restaurant. Lots of fuss, lots of throaty sounds, and a bunch of torque. I think, because the V8 is what I grew up with, I really prefer it for the fun factor. And because it is simple, I could do the install myself. Most people that see both cars at a show, prefer the V8. I think they feel the 3800 probably came that way from the factory! Only you can decide for yourself. One of each is really the best way, for sure.
I too, have a 3800 sc and a 350 small block, carbed. I drove them back to back last Wednesday. The sc car was driven to work, during my lunch hour and then home again. Lots of power , lots of fun, but much like a regular daily driver. ( except for the super charger whine) On the other hand, I drove the v8 car to pick up take out at the local restaurant. Lots of fuss, lots of throaty sounds, and a bunch of torque. I think, because the V8 is what I grew up with, I really prefer it for the fun factor. And because it is simple, I could do the install myself. Most people that see both cars at a show, prefer the V8. I think they feel the 3800 probably came that way from the factory! Only you can decide for yourself. One of each is really the best way, for sure.
Does the 3800SC definitely feel like it has a lot more power though? Than stock I mean.
Oh Yea! Lots more power than a stock V6 Fiero, especially if the old 2.8 has an automatic. I've never had this car to the drags, where I could give you hard numbers, but others could certainly attest to the 3800 SC's acceleration. Mine is pretty stock except for WCF headers and 3" WCF exhaust. Stock for the 2007 GTP motor was 260 HP as installed in GM's cars of that year. I think the reason I like the V8 car so much, is it is a 5 speed, so as a driver, one is more interactive with the vehicle. The SC car, you just put it in drive and GO.
I will have to tune and ballast the chassis enough with the simple little extra weight of a V8. Yes, it isn't that much bigger...but at 160 km/h and a turn...a couple kg's and slightly offest potentially could make the difference between a good day...and a last day. Plus, I am inherently lazy and I have other V8's... 
