Originally posted by BV MotorSports: LOL, I do like this guy. My British mates would call you, Cheeky Monkey!
Haha. Well surely he doesn't mean an OHC engine is 21st century. OHC engines have been in use for about 100 years now. And Wankel and gas turbine aren't exactly new engines either. Maybe he's discovered how to contain a tiny fusion reaction in a volume small enough to fit in a car, and power an electric engine.
Haha. Well surely he doesn't mean an OHC engine is 21st century. OHC engines have been in use for about 100 years now. And Wankel and gas turbine aren't exactly new engines either. Maybe he's discovered how to contain a tiny fusion reaction in a volume small enough to fit in a car, and power an electric engine.
Stop being an idiot and reading too much into my post. I'm just saying that "my opinion" of pushrod engines is that they are only still being produced due to NASCAR. Some people love V8 engines and if I buy a classic muscle car, big cubes will be the way I go.
Here is an example of how technology is getting better.
Now I am sorry I posted in this thread in the first place cause all you wanted was to argue. I was just stating my opinion. Both the V8 and the 3800 have their place. To the OP: The best thing to do is go for a ride in each and decide what you like. I've personally driven in a Fiero: V8 SBC, LS3, Troy's LS7, a turbo 3800, many various supercharged 3800, 3.4, 2.8, 2.5, and a VR6. I know what I like and I know what I don't.
Originally posted by bmwguru: I'm just saying that "my opinion" of pushrod engines is that they are only still being produced due to NASCAR. Some people love V8 engines and if I buy a classic muscle car, big cubes will be the way I go.
Here is an example of how technology is getting better.
I'll agree that the only reason Toyota is in NASCAR is because they bought the rights to build SBC based V8s from GM. But I would disagree that's the only reason they're being produced, or even if it was, that it would make them a poor choice of engine.
For example, the video you linked isn't new technology. It's something that F1 cars have been using for quite a while now. The only reason Fiat is bringing it to production vehicles now, is because they've figured out how to get the cost down, and make it somewhat reliable for everyday vehicles. Renault has been working on bringing the same thing to consumer cars. Most new drivetrain and suspension technology makes its way into production cars after having been used in racing for several years, if not a couple decades.
Technology seems to be lately old stuff that is refined into better stuff. Back in the 80's turbos were borderline useless, but their technology grew since.
I just want my car to rev to 8000 rpms, get 31mpg and run 13's....oh that's my VR6
The problem with some swaps is you don't know what you'll get until it is done. I always tell people to go for a ride in various setups when possible and see if they like it. My 3800s/c and my tech Ryan's are two different animals. I hate driving his car, but it has every damn mod on it that is possible. Mine is moderately modded and I love driving it....and he likes his car's setup better than mine....but we both like cheeseburgers.
On the point that the 3800 is an older design engine, Dave may have a point. Like the SBC, that engine has its history going back many years.. I see nothing wrong with them but some owners crave more modern techology. As long as my engine gives good mileage and strong performance I'll live with the 3800 V6 but we cannot discount that some car owners with LX9, LZ4,LZ8, LZ9 OHC (high value) V6 engines have done amazing things with them, generating upwards of 450 HP from only 3.5-3.9 Litres of displacement. However the scope of work and technical ability required to install one of these is probably out of range for most DIY swap mechanics. Likewise the current day GM high tech V8's also have their place. You can get over 400 HP in stock trim , have the look and the sound, albeit at a higher cost. The 3800SC or V8 and the DIY vs farm out question can probably be best answered by ones desire, individual taste and ones budget.
UPDATE: Typo Corrected. GM High Value engines are just OHV and not DOHV ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-23-2012).]
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I'll live with the 3800 V6 but we cannot discount that some car owners with LX9, LZ4,LZ8, LZ9 DOHC (high value) V6 engines have done amazing things with them, generating upwards of 450 HP from only 3.5-3.9 Litres of displacement.
Those (high value) V6 engines are not DOHC. They are pushrod engines, with iron blocks, even. The high feature engines are DOHC, like the LP9, LLT, LFX, and simialr.
The high value series are pushrod, but they do still pack a punch, there's a guy on 60degreeV6 with a ported and cammed LX9 running 12's in a camaro N/a
------------------ there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!
The high value series are pushrod, but they do still pack a punch, there's a guy on 60degreeV6 with a ported and cammed LX9 running 12's in a camaro N/a
You can throw money at them and make power, sure. I didn't say that. I was merely correcting the statement that they were DOHC, which they are not, and pointing out which new engine family was DOHC.
You can make a lot of power on an Ecotec too. But they aren't everyone's baby yet, on PFF.
I don't really see that either V8 or V6 are bad you can make more power than the Fiero could ever handle with both. I know that some hate the SBC but fact is it is a good strong engine that can make about as much power as you want and the same holds true for the 3800 . I know in the world of outlaw sprint cars they are pulling over 900 HP out of the SBC NA yes it is a crazy race engine and in drag racing they are getting over 1400 HP out of the V6 and i don't know where they are with a boosted V8 SBC but i am sure it is around 2000 HP so as far as getting enough HP for the Fiero i think both V8 & V6 engine have that covered . what 1 works best in a fiero who know it kinda depends on how much you know and how fat your wallet is to make it all work perfect
The SBC isn't for everybody, it can get expensive to really blow your hair back, but what it really has going for it is durability.
Just because you don't see many radical "Blown SBC's" running at the Drags, here's an old video (2007) to show what a "Blown" SBC can do (again a pretty tough little engine):
I'm sure by now, someone has beaten this guys speed/time with a Blown or Turbo SBC. Just seeing how much those small slicks are spinning, tells me he could run faster.
There's a couple of twin turbo SBC's in street cars near me putting out 2,300 HP, don't know what they'd do in the quarter, but they sure get attention on the street. The Problem with the Fiero is lack of a really strong transmission and halfshaft assemblies - related more to the SBC - custom stuff has to be created, and it can get very expensive.
I think we all agree that the issue here is not really that ANY of these motors can make big power with the right modifications and tuning. The SBC has been around in one form or another for many years and has powered some impressive vehicles no doubts there. The real issue here is what is behind these motors, Tranny's and axles and everything else that breaks from the power. It is unfortunate that we need to spend a large sum of money to UPGRADE these front wheel drive transmissions to accept what in most views are moderate power levels from the engines. I wish there was an off the shelf trans that was easily installed that did not take 1" drive chains or cryogenically treated internals to stand up to say 5-600HP engines. Rear wheel drive cars seem to be able to handle that much power a lot easier and I am sure it is in the overall engineering of the cases that causes the issues. To be able to install a turbo 3800 or LSX engine in there and build it to that level without having to worry about smoking parts would be a big step in the right direction for a fast fiero. Let's face it making power anymore is not so much a guessing game. It is not whether or not you can make it but rather how much it will cost and how complex a build you are willing to take on. Too bad there is not a ZF transaxle for the fiero that works as well and can take the abuse in a FWD layout somewhere. I know that several have been tried and have shown promise but there does not seem to be a slam dunk tranny out there for the Fiero so far. Peace
Originally posted by Pete Matos: I wish there was an off the shelf trans that was easily installed that did not take 1" drive chains or cryogenically treated internals to stand up to say 5-600HP engines.
Transmissions are rated for torque, not horsepower. This is why the smaller displacement engines with higher redlines are better matches for the Fiero. Even the Ariel Atom 500 only makes about 300 lb-ft of torque, with its 500 HP V8. It's also only 3.0 liters, and redlines at 10,500 RPM.
The Fiero, while some people have managed to get decent 1/4 mile times out of it, after dumping a lot of money into engines and transmissions, is just not designed for drag racing.
Big V8s in a Fiero are cool, and have the wow factor, but their utility is also limited by many other aspects of the car. Good for show and still fun to drive, but not great for the track. If you want a really fast Fiero, then keeping the cubes down to a reasonable level, with a smooth and continuous set of power and torque curves on the dyno, mated to a properly geared transmission, will get you there. But still, if you want to make lots of power, you're going to have to spend money on the trans.
Big V8s in a Fiero are cool, and have the wow factor, but their utility is also limited by many other aspects of the car. Good for show and still fun to drive, but not great for the track.
Obviously you've never been in a nice V8 Fiero with 5spd on a Road Course where it really shines. Best of all you don't have to abuse the car like you do in 1/4 mile racing. Instead of having 10 or 11 seconds of fun, you can have more than 15 minutes of fun on a run, that will make you realize why Race Car Drivers work out to stay in shape.
Obviously you've never been in a nice V8 Fiero with 5spd on a Road Course where it really shines. Best of all you don't have to abuse the car like you do in 1/4 mile racing. Instead of having 10 or 11 seconds of fun, you can have more than 15 minutes of fun on a run, that will make you realize why Race Car Drivers work out to stay in shape.
There are reasons for everything.
For u this 15 minutes if fun ends when you slide into the gravel pit at the track. Then you speed off and leave the track...
For u this 15 minutes if fun ends when you slide into the gravel pit at the track. Then you speed off and leave the track...
LOL, ya but I came back after having gravel removed from between tire / rim and ran the third session ! Even "Real Race Car Drivers" make mistakes, I admitted mine to the entire Forum, had nothing to do with the car. But you know there's some people on here that just won't miss an opportunity to try to slam someone, know what I mean ?
Your kind of off topic, take it to pm.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-24-2012).]
Originally posted by California Kid: Obviously you've never been in a nice V8 Fiero with 5spd on a Road Course where it really shines. Best of all you don't have to abuse the car like you do in 1/4 mile racing. Instead of having 10 or 11 seconds of fun, you can have more than 15 minutes of fun on a run, that will make you realize why Race Car Drivers work out to stay in shape.
There are reasons for everything.
Obviously you didn't actually read what I said, and mistook it for some statement against V8 Fieros.
The Fiero, while some people have managed to get decent 1/4 mile times out of it, after dumping a lot of money into engines and transmissions, is just not designed for drag racing.
The Fiero's read weight bias and lack of longitudinal torque reaction makes it great for drag racing...
What is the best V6 option for our fiero's. 3800, 3.4,...... this is for my wife and not for 1/4 slips or the track. I'm looking for reliability with just enough power to justify the swap. If i were to go V8 for her I would love to do a N* but I don't think D1S is still around. Her fiero is a 5spd 2.8 is it worth the time and money to rebuild it and would it be reliable, I only ask because all of my fieros have been V8 swaps. As of now we are not sure if we are going to keep it 5spd or go auto, she would have to learn to drive a stick which I find to be fun to drive but thats me. I figured with all the knowledgeable members that are watching this thread it would be a great place to ask.
[This message has been edited by troyboy (edited 05-24-2012).]
I'd consider a 3400 or a 3500, they damn near bolt in, and if you use the stock fiero accessory drive, they do with minor oil pan clearancing.
Thanks for the reply, I have seen 3.4 swaps using what looks to be the 2.8 intake , I like that it looks stock but what is the HP gain and is it more reliable than he 2.8? OP sorry for the hijack but its kind of on topic and a lot more on topic than where this thread was going
I would go 3800 with an auto and 3500 non vvt with a stick shift. 3400 would be easiest but they are getting older and a low mileage version may be hard to get. A 3.4 with dis conversion would be a nice upgrade and keep a stock look.
What is the best V6 option for our fiero's. 3800, 3.4,...... this is for my wife and not for 1/4 slips or the track. I'm looking for reliability with just enough power to justify the swap. If i were to go V8 for her I would love to do a N* but I don't think D1S is still around. Her fiero is a 5spd 2.8 is it worth the time and money to rebuild it and would it be reliable, I only ask because all of my fieros have been V8 swaps. As of now we are not sure if we are going to keep it 5spd or go auto, she would have to learn to drive a stick which I find to be fun to drive but thats me. I figured with all the knowledgeable members that are watching this thread it would be a great place to ask.
First off stick with the 5 speed and learn her how to drive it as I think everyone should be able to drive a manual. From there pick up an L-26 to mate to the 5 speed in stock form to give the car good HP, reliability and good MPG. The L-26 has a nice aftermarket and can be cleaned up for a very clean/nice looking swap....
Thanks for the reply, I have seen 3.4 swaps using what looks to be the 2.8 intake , I like that it looks stock but what is the HP gain and is it more reliable than he 2.8? OP sorry for the hijack but its kind of on topic and a lot more on topic than where this thread was going
The 3.4 iron head swap is a nice upgrade to the 2.8 and gives it some extra kick. Add a few aftermarket parts to the motor and you can get upwards to 170 HP or so. It is a good swap for those wanting to retain the stock Fiero look in the engine bay.
First off stick with the 5 speed and learn her how to drive it as I think everyone should be able to drive a manual. From there pick up an L-26 to mate to the 5 speed in stock form to give the car good HP, reliability and good MPG. The L-26 has a nice aftermarket and can be cleaned up for a very clean/nice looking swap....
This is how I roll except with a 4 speed. I'd take it cross country in a heartbeat. Tho a lot of that has to do with Ryan Gick.
Thanks for all the replies and info. When we get the Enterra home and see the condition of the 2.8 and its safe i will let her drive it for a few months before she makes me pull the trigger on the swap. BTW the only problem with teaching her how to drive a manual trans is........ I will no longer have a good excuse why she can't drive my car . Once again thanks for the info
I don't think I will ever be able to say yes when asked that question....My LS4 swap is a myth I am starting to believe even though I can look over while in the shop working on a 300 swap and see it.....My goal is to drive it to the 30th show no matter what it takes...Which is about a weeks worth of actually working on it straight.....
First off stick with the 5 speed and learn her how to drive it as I think everyone should be able to drive a manual. From there pick up an L-26 to mate to the 5 speed in stock form to give the car good HP, reliability and good MPG. The L-26 has a nice aftermarket and can be cleaned up for a very clean/nice looking swap....
X2 I looked at car-part.com im NY and seen the L26 ran around $1000-$1500 with some having only 6000 miles on them. The latest ones were used in Buick Lucernes in 07 maybe 08. The HP and Torque of these (3800 NA) feel like what the car should have had without going overboard and in stock form you shouldn't need to worry about the tranny much. On Ryans site he said that the MPG using an auto (dont remember which one) could get around 37 MPG hwy so a 5 spd should come close. The 3800s are one of the most reliable and trouble free engines GM put out as per here and the mechanics at the GM dealership.
I think many in this thread are either seeing what they want to see or just wanna fight. I don't believe I read anywhere on this thread that said the SBC is a bad motor. Lets face it, anyone that says anything to the contrary should be ignored completely for being a dumbass.
Problem is, many swaps are done with low output engines. Just because it is a v8, doesn't mean its powerful. 305 anyone? LOL Those of us that are familiar with the 70's and 80's know all too well the automotive dark ages. Its only been the last 10yrs that performance has taken the lead. Though, I dont see that trend lasting much longer. HP wars will have to come to an end again and soon.
Anyway, it was stated before and I agree. Most do the SBC (or any V8) for the WOW factor IMO. Those doing the 3.8sc typically do it with performance in mind. Yes, there is bleed-over from one to the other. Again, I have done both. For me, the SBC (we are talking pre-LSx) has way too many compromises. I'd LOVE to do an LS4 swap someday so dont think I am a v8 hater. Well I guess pre LSx hater would be fair.
The 3800 swap is hard to beat from any standpoint. Until a new wonder swap comes along, this will my go to engine.
------------------ Whodeanie built 1988 Fiero GT, loaded, 14k original miles, F23, built L67 swap, ST2 cam and matching valvetrain, PT67 bb turbo, w2a charge-cooled ----400-500whp?????? More mods when I get it back (interior, suspension, lighting etc). Stay tuned! 1987 Fiero GT Road Racer. 1st documented 3.4TDC swap- built in 1994. 5MT Isuzu, Quaife prototype LSD, HT Tubular A-arms, Fully poly & Heim jointed suspension, Custom 3 way adjustible sway bars, HT Bump Steer kit, Koin's, 320# springs, GA brakes, ZEX N20 and more! Under full restoration. 2007 Toyota Tacoma Double cab Prerunner SR5 Stock, and staying that way. 2009 KTM 250SX motocross bike. Modded and fun as hell!
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 05-25-2012).]
The Problem with the Fiero is lack of a really strong transmission and halfshaft assemblies - related more to the SBC - custom stuff has to be created, and it can get very expensive.
