Called out one of my buddies with a supra (fully built, high compression 2ZJ-GTE, T74 turbo, built head, giant cams, est 620whp on 93, 950-1000whp on Q16).
Justin spun a ton from a 50 roll in 2nd... but he sorta got a lead, so they were dead even when he went into 3rd. He then walked about 2-3 cars on him in 3rd and 4th gear. Supra was on pump gas and "short shifted because he didnt think he needed to try".
I dont consider it a huge accomplishment, because that supra has never put up a real number in any form, other than feeling fast, but its cool that he beat him.
On oct 10th i went to a car show and they had alittle burn out comp, well I shifted from 1st-2nd and the tires didnt spin, but the clutch did. First time that clutch as slipped on me. Then it would slip in 3rd and 4th anytime the boost came in. I thought maybe i got oil on it, I sprayed the clutch down with brake cleaner from the starter hole. It got better, only slipping in 5th under boost. Took it easy for a couple of days and then it must have broke back in because it didnt slip again. First run I made that night it was fine, then that run in the video it slipped going into 4th, I dont think it hurt me too bad, it was only for a fraction of a second. I can see it being a problem in the future that only an automatic trans is going to fix.
I installed an amazing E85 fuel pump. I now run 70psi fuel pressure at full boost and afr's are at 11.0-11:3, it seems to like this. Might play with it on a dyno one of these days. //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106878.html
I got some WS6 yellow valve springs for $50. I put them on and the 1.9 ratio rockers back on. I raised to boost 2 more pounds to 19psi. It used to die right off at 5k rpms, now it really keeps pulling harder to 6300rpm. I went to the track this past saturday and only got one run in. I was on a different set of tires (taller) and I always take it easy on the first run, short shifting and not going WOT until 3rd gear. I went 12.2@125 I was really impressed. My speedo only said 115. I dumped some ice into the icebox, went up the staging lanes and it started to rain. Bummer, my trans lives to see another day.
I ordered a spec stage 5 clutch today. Once I break that in I have an l26 n/a intake w/hv3 ready to go on, and I would like to raise the boost to 23-25psi.
This is a 351VE holset, about the size of a 6blade HX40pro. The VGT should let me see a bit more peak power than the HX40pro would.
The most horsepower I have seen out of a HX40pro was 650whp on a DSM 4cyl.... So if I have the intercooling and engine setup correctly (valvetrain mods), I might start hunting around in the high 500whp area with this turbo.
I will not be needing any help for tuning this car... I have tuned a large amount of turbo 3800's and they are honestly the easiest things to tune out there... Its just making sure the fuel pump is up to the task really. If I didnt use any tricks, I would be running out of maf VERY quickly, so that is also another reason why I have to tune myself (and also another reason it is so easy).
Other than a gasket or 2, that is it. It came out a bit higher than expected due to the powerlog and a bit more expensive intercooler setup than expected, so it is more around $900 right now.
Dark, What is a powerlog? Where did you get the oil hoses for your turbo? Thanks
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Originally posted by darkhorizon:
This is a 351VE holset, about the size of a 6blade HX40pro. The VGT should let me see a bit more peak power than the HX40pro would.
The most horsepower I have seen out of a HX40pro was 650whp on a DSM 4cyl.... So if I have the intercooling and engine setup correctly (valvetrain mods), I might start hunting around in the high 500whp area with this turbo.
I will not be needing any help for tuning this car... I have tuned a large amount of turbo 3800's and they are honestly the easiest things to tune out there... Its just making sure the fuel pump is up to the task really. If I didnt use any tricks, I would be running out of maf VERY quickly, so that is also another reason why I have to tune myself (and also another reason it is so easy).
Other than a gasket or 2, that is it. It came out a bit higher than expected due to the powerlog and a bit more expensive intercooler setup than expected, so it is more around $900 right now.
Dark, What is a powerlog? Where did you get the oil hoses for your turbo? Thanks
oil line came off a 5.9 diesel for my turbo. The 351 used a ebay stainless braided line and a few adapters from my local hydrolic shop.
Powerlog is a worthless piece of junk that zzp had made from them by some chinese company that is stock style replacement for the front manifold on a 3800. You probably could get away with a stock front manifold without issues.
The trunk cutting discussion is another thread entirely... but this is the furthest thing from a "race" setup as you can get, and is honestly the only reason this was done was to eliminate the need for race gas / careful tuning and fiddling around associated with trying to make decent power with a blower.
This same setup could have been done with a trunk, as proven by akursedx, who also attests his car to be quite far from a "race"setup.
AkursedX's Fiero has a full trunk, full interior, muffler (street legal noise level producing exhaust) and functioning A/C - so I would consider that car to be "far from a race setup". A (hacked) Fiero with a completely cut-out trunk, no muffler (unless you are going to mount it under your intercooler which I am sure will help it with the heat soak), and god knows what else removed/deleted from it (A/C, interior parts, ???) is not what I consider to be a "driver". I agree with Dennis' assessment of what a "race only" car is. And it sure looks like this project is well on its way to being just that. So please don't compare this build to what has been done to AkursedX's car, because it isn't even close.
If you can do this same setup while keeping the FULL trunk, full interior, working A/C, and street legal sounding exhaust; I for one would like to see it.
-ryan
------------------ 7+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures... Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
AkursedX's Fiero has a full trunk, full interior, muffler (street legal noise level producing exhaust) and functioning A/C - so I would consider that car to be "far from a race setup". A (hacked) Fiero with a completely cut-out trunk, no muffler (unless you are going to mount it under your intercooler which I am sure will help it with the heat soak), and god knows what else removed/deleted from it (A/C, interior parts, ???) is not what I consider to be a "driver". I agree with Dennis' assessment of what a "race only" car is. And it sure looks like this project is well on its way to being just that. So please don't compare this build to what has been done to AkursedX's car, because it isn't even close.
If you can do this same setup while keeping the FULL trunk, full interior, working A/C, and street legal sounding exhaust; I for one would like to see it.
-ryan
I still haven't made a floor for the trunk, lazy I guess. I still have a full interior, a/c never worked since I had the car. My exhaust is very quiet, it only gets loud when the wastegate opens. I still drive it almost every day, and the golf clubs still fit in the passenger seat I would be wiling to bet that I put more miles on my car than Akursed!
Keeping a full trunk is preference vs effort. I/we spent a total of 60 minutes building the rear turbo mount, which happens to offer an easier oil feed and return. The rear trunk does not offer me anything so it was obvious that I could remove it if it made for easier routing. The a/w intercooler is smaller than the air/air intercooler used in the car that kept the trunk, and the turbo is not too big to fit over in the area it was in, so it is hard to say that the trunk was cut in necessity. I still think I have more storage available than c5 vette owners have.
My drag fiero has no muffler, and is quieter than my daily driver grand prix with flow masters. Justin has a muffler and a VGT turbo, which if adjusted properly would produce a much quieter exhaust than akursedx's.
A/C removal is again preference. I never would use it if I had it in my fieros daily driver or not, I do not think Justin considered it worth the effort, but there is not a single part that is preventing it from being installed on either my drag car or justins.
Keeping a full trunk is preference vs effort. I/we spent a total of 60 minutes building the rear turbo mount, which happens to offer an easier oil feed and return. The rear trunk does not offer me anything so it was obvious that I could remove it if it made for easier routing. The a/w intercooler is smaller than the air/air intercooler used in the car that kept the trunk, and the turbo is not too big to fit over in the area it was in, so it is hard to say that the trunk was cut in necessity. I still think I have more storage available than c5 vette owners have.
My drag fiero has no muffler, and is quieter than my daily driver grand prix with flow masters. Justin has a muffler and a VGT turbo, which if adjusted properly would produce a much quieter exhaust than akursedx's.
A/C removal is again preference. I never would use it if I had it in my fieros daily driver or not, I do not think Justin considered it worth the effort, but there is not a single part that is preventing it from being installed on either my drag car or justins.
Concerning the question of preference of having A/C or not, or having a full trunk or not; depends on the choices and desires of the car's owner. If he or she doesn't care then that is one thing. But I will go out on a limb and say most Fiero owners would prefer to have working A/C and a full trunk given the choice. The question is, can you deliver and what will it look like when you are done? Anyone who has done an engine swap to a Fiero has probably encountered a situation where it would have been easier to just get out the old saw and just hack some metal away to give them more room. But I don't like doing it because good Fiero spaceframes are getting to be few and far between and it degrades the car's value among other things. I guess if you don't care about such things then it isn't as big of a deal.
But let's consider for a moment that you decided to add a new trunk floor to your existing turbo setups. Do you not foresee a problem with where you guys have the turbos mounted IF you wanted to install said floor. Looks to me like you would be putting a lot of heat UNDER where your trunk would be because of where the turbo is mounted, so I would think you would need to be very creative in insulating your new trunk floor to make sure your trunk did not turn into an oven (although that might not work out too badly if you like to do a lot of tailgating).
Oh, by the way, how are you supporting the weight of your turbos? You aren't just relying on that rear manifold to support the full weight of the turbo, are you?
Oh, by the way, how are you supporting the weight of your turbos? You aren't just relying on that rear manifold to support the full weight of the turbo, are you?
Yes, the 50lbs of turbo awesomeness is hanging off from the rear manifold. No problmes yet. I did do some reinforced welding on the primaries to the flange, its built up quite a bit on the outside and ported a small amount on the inside. I can stand on the turbo too, so I don't think its much of a problem.
Concerning the question of preference of having A/C or not, or having a full trunk or not; depends on the choices and desires of the car's owner. If he or she doesn't care then that is one thing. But I will go out on a limb and say most Fiero owners would prefer to have working A/C and a full trunk given the choice. The question is, can you deliver and what will it look like when you are done? Anyone who has done an engine swap to a Fiero has probably encountered a situation where it would have been easier to just get out the old saw and just hack some metal away to give them more room. But I don't like doing it because good Fiero spaceframes are getting to be few and far between and it degrades the car's value among other things. I guess if you don't care about such things then it isn't as big of a deal.
Sure used alot of non descriptive adjectives there.... At the end of the day it is my car and I can do it the way I want to. It is clear that you CAN do it other ways, none of which would effect the performance of the car in anything but its ability to be cooler inside in the summer, and I could fit a change of clothes in the lower section of the trunk.
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But let's consider for a moment that you decided to add a new trunk floor to your existing turbo setups. Do you not foresee a problem with where you guys have the turbos mounted IF you wanted to install said floor. Looks to me like you would be putting a lot of heat UNDER where your trunk would be because of where the turbo is mounted, so I would think you would need to be very creative in insulating your new trunk floor to make sure your trunk did not turn into an oven (although that might not work out too badly if you like to do a lot of tailgating).
The old SC exhaust was much warmer than the turbo with a home made turbo blanket on it. If either of us put a real blanket on the turbo, I have no doubt it would be much cooler than our supercharged setups.
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Oh, by the way, how are you supporting the weight of your turbos? You aren't just relying on that rear manifold to support the full weight of the turbo, are you?
-ryan
Justin's car had some cracks in the lower part of the rear manifold, so he fixed it to be stronger (It was most likely from heat/pressure more so than the extra weight) and it has not had any problems in a year or so now, 10k miles. Other than that my T3 manifold looks good as new with 20k miles on it, my T4 flanged setup is also perfect still, but it does not have much more than a few track passes on it.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 10-05-2010).]
Sure used alot of non descriptive adjectives there.... At the end of the day it is my car and I can do it the way I want to. It is clear that you CAN do it other ways, none of which would effect the performance of the car in anything but its ability to be cooler inside in the summer, and I could fit a change of clothes in the lower section of the trunk.
No reason to get hostile. I'm just asking if you are capable of doing this swap in a way that doesn't involve hacking out any section of the spaceframe. If you plan on doing a number of these swaps for "customers", undoubtedly at some point I would guess someone is going to ask the very same question - not wanting their car to be hacked up just so they can run a turbo. I really don't think anyone gives a rat's ass what you do to your car. Besides, you have made it abundantly clear what "you" care and don't care about.
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Originally posted by darkhorizon: The old SC exhaust was much warmer than the turbo with a home made turbo blanket on it. If either of us put a real blanket on the turbo, I have no doubt it would be much cooler than our supercharged setups.
It seems to me a flat trunk bottom sitting on top of the exhaust system and a turbo (wrapped in a blanket or not) would just trap the heat under it. At least the stock trunk has a pretty steep angle that no exhaust component sits directly below (unless you consider that 2" flat edge towards the top) that allows heat to come upwards and escape thru the engine bay vents - and we all know how hot those still get. I would just be curious to know if your setups could still provide any usable trunk space at all without burning your "change of clothes" you plan on throwing in what little trunk space you are leaving yourself with.
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Originally posted by darkhorizon: Justin's car had some cracks in the lower part of the rear manifold, so he fixed it to be stronger (It was most likely from heat/pressure more so than the extra weight) and it has not had any problems in a year or so now, 10k miles. Other than that my T3 manifold looks good as new with 20k miles on it, my T4 flanged setup is also perfect still, but it does not have much more than a few track passes on it.
So you're just assuming the cracks that showed up in Justin's manifold were due to heat/pressure more so than the weight of the turbo and the stress that puts on a manifold that glows red hot with temps over 1000+ deg during WOT/full boost conditions? That's a pretty big assumption. And I suppose all of the bracketry the OE uses to support the weight of their factory-installed turbos is just a waste of time and materials, right?
The manifold was put to a serious test with pressure and heat when he was dealing with a timing issue that he left unchecked for awhile as well. IT was not anything to be overly concerned about, and the latest edition works without issues, remember this is the bottom of the manifold, not the top where the stresses are.
Hopefully I'll make it to a few next year. I was busy EVERY weekend that they had it, or I was dealing with clutch/trans issues. One things is for sure, I'll need some new back tires before I go.
How you got that radiator to fit is beyond me. I tried duplicating your heat exchanger setup and it sticks too far out the top. Did you guys cut anything?
Nope its just squeezed in there. I had to take off that air scoop thing that the radiator sits on. Put it in then bolted it back up. I thought it was going to be too large at first but I was able to make it work
I am bumping this up to ask a few questions for help.
The Fiero club here in San Diego has a 3800sc series II awaiting to be swapped into my car most likely. I want to know if you guy's had your engine out of the car now what would you advise to do the same. And also differently.
What valve's, springs, rockers would you go with?
Biggest question is Headers? or Just stock manifolds? Sounds like power logs are crap.
Same Turbo? or a different one?
Other items or things you would do differently.
Goal is about 500 to 550 max whp. Basically with what you have now learned from experience, are there things you would do differently?
Well, I pretty much met my goals with what I did but there is always a hungry for more power.
I would start out with an auto transmission and L26 engine right from the start if I could. I would add/change:
ZZP turbo cam 130# valve springs double roller timing chain 80# or higher injectors IF a stock manifold will work than I would stay with that. I'm not sure if my homemade powerlog helps anything or not. I never ever see any knock, but I'm also running E85 A larger turbo if this one couldn't keep up, but I love it right now
But really I have too much power for the street right now as it is. A few weeks ago I pooped my pants on the eway trying to show off. 4th gear at 80mph the tires lite up and I crossed 2 lanes on the expressway. I had to stay in it so I didn't whip back into the wall. Cold roads suck!
That at least gives me a good idea on the headers. I think I will just stay stock with them. I just cannot see spending $700+ on headers IF it's really not necessary. That money could be spent on a better intercooler or something.
What are your thought's on the intake? Is the L26 the non sc 3800? So basically it's a good idea for us to track down a "regular" non SC'd intake.
Looks like the only intake being fabricated is the one by Fiero X. It works, but it's funky looking.
I like the L26 because of the higher compression and the aluminum intake.
Any n/a 3800 inake, lower and upper pair, will work. If you stay with the supercharged heads, then you will need to plug the injectors bungs on the intakes since there will be holes in the head for them. ZZP sells an insert to make the runners shorter and has been proven to make more power through the power curve. I have a home made version of that. Its called a HV3.
Fierox intake is junk, stock n/a flows better. (FACT lol)
I would be wiling to bet that I put more miles on my car than Akursed!
