Originally posted by blackrams: Admittedly, US Corporations have built and operated automotive plants in both countries, I wonder if that was taken away and moved back to US facilities, would they take notice that DJT is serious about border security.................................
Although above my pay grade I have thoughts. DJT was going to heavily tax foreign car manufactures. A targeted tax. A tariff is blanket tax per say over all products.
Originally posted by Patrick: Does that make you Trump's left testicle?
No.
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Originally posted by Patrick: I'm sorry, I don't understand how these associations are supposed to work.
I understand you don't understand. My quip was that both you and Trudeau are worried about the USA hurting ourselves. Are you sure Canada is not hurting itself ?
Although above my pay grade I have thoughts. DJT was going to heavily tax foreign car manufactures. A targeted tax. A tariff is blanket tax per say over all products.
Agreed but the question is more about the economic loss to border countries if the Big Three were to move their manufacturing back to the US versus manufacturing in Border Countries. Just an idea that was mentioned to me in a private conversation. But, my own Ram 3500 was built in Mexico, my son's Camaro was built in Canada. Removing that production from those countries would have a significant impact.
We've got some really screwed up trade agreements that cost Americans jobs.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-02-2025).]
Originally posted by ray b: and so the crash starts slowly
I don't think you understand what a crash is...
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Originally posted by Patrick:
Trump has already backed down on his original threat to levi a 25% tariff on everything from Canada. "Energy resources" will be levied a lower 10% tariff.
Bullies often meet their match. I guess we'll just see how it all shakes out.
Respectfully Patrick, if that makes you feel like you've lost less, then bask in it. But I think we all discussed that Trump wouldn't tariff energy-related products since that directly affects inflation. I believed he wouldn't put a tariff on oil at all.
Originally posted by blackrams: Agreed but the question is more about the economic loss to border countries if the Big Three were to move their manufacturing back to the US versus manufacturing in Border Countries. Just an idea that was mentioned to me in a private conversation. But, my own Ram 3500 was built in Mexico, my son's Camaro was built in Canada. Removing that production from those countries would have a significant impact.
We've got some really screwed up trade agreements that cost Americans jobs. Rams
There will be plusses and minuses in any agreement, including politics. Moving manufacturing back to the USA will cost no jobs, in the USA. We used to have great manufacturing DNA which is vital to national security. Also the supply chain of many different things which are absolutely necessary. Such as medical.
The allure of American companies producing in foreign countries is because of the US government tax burden put on American companies.
There will be plusses and minuses in any agreement, including politics. Moving manufacturing back to the USA will cost no jobs, in the USA. We used to have great manufacturing DNA which is vital to national security. Also the supply chain of many different things which are absolutely necessary. Such as medical.
The allure of American companies producing in foreign countries is because of the US government tax burden put on American companies.
While I do agree to a great extent, moving those production facilities back to the US would have significant impact and cost many Mexican and Canadian jobs. I'm not saying this should be done but, it's another tool DJT could use if he wanted to. Admittedly, it would need the support of the Big Three and probably some incentive but, both border countries would feel the pinch of such job losses.
All DJT is asking for is assistance with Border Security.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-02-2025).]
Respectfully Patrick, if that makes you feel like you've lost less, then bask in it.
As usual Todd, you have a skewed view of actual events.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
But I think we all discussed that Trump wouldn't tariff energy-related products since that directly affects inflation.
"I think we all discussed" how Trump announced of his own volition that he was going to levi a 25% tariff on everything imported from Canada (and Mexico). It doesn't matter what you or I "think", that's what was originally announced.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I believed he wouldn't put a tariff on oil at all.
Trump now maintains it'll be 10%. We'll see if he backs down on this as well.
"I think we all discussed" how Trump announced of his own volition that he was going to levi a 25% tariff on everything imported from Canada (and Mexico). It doesn't matter what you or I "think", that's what was originally announced.
I mean, he has the authority... by his own volition, to raise tariffs. But again, like... I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you were so confident that Trump would be too scared to do it (etc., etc...) but now that he's done it, you're focusing on the minutia like... it's only 10% on oil, or ... whatever. Does that really change anything about your argument?
...but you were so confident that Trump would be too scared to do it (etc., etc...)
I doubted that Trump would be applying the 25% tariff on oil, and I was right. I was also counting on Trump having some sensibility (or better advisors), but now we know otherwise.
For whatever reason, Donald Trump has decided to penalize the US's closest neighbor/friend/ally with a devastating 25% tariff.. whereas with China, which is not a neighbor/friend/ally of the US at all, he has levied a much less severe 10% tariff. And this makes sense to you? You're in agreement with this?
With "friends" like this, who needs enemies!
Tell me Todd, what's the next decision of Trump's that you'll be championing... that the US take by force any natural resources in Canada that the US feels they require? I'm not joking, the writing's on the wall. It's already been demonstrated how easy it is to convince a large segment of the population why a particular action "needs" to be taken. This could get real damn ugly.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-02-2025).]
Originally posted by Patrick: For whatever reason, Donald Trump has decided to penalize the US's closest neighbor/friend/ally with a devastating 25% tariff.. whereas with China, which is not a neighbor/friend/ally of the US at all, he has levied a much less severe 10% tariff. And this makes sense to you? You're in agreement with this?
Yes, and I am.
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Originally posted by Patrick: With "friends" like this, who needs enemies!
Certainly not Canada.
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Originally posted by Patrick: ... that the US take by force any natural resources in Canada that the US feels they require? I'm not joking, the writing's on the wall. It's already been demonstrated how easy it is to convince a large segment of the population why a particular action "needs" to be taken. This could get real damn ugly.
I'm dumbfounded. Do you folks know how tariffs work? Do you know who will be hurt most?
IMPORT tariffs, which is what Trump is imposing, are a tax on imported goods. They are paid by importer and the cost is passed on to the consumer. The only way they have impact on the exporter is that they make exported goods more expensive relative to the same goods produced in-country or by non-tariffed suppliers. In this instance the exporter may be forced to lower their costs to maintain their market share. However, in a world-wide economy, this usually does not happen.
Tariffs are inflationary tools. They will raise the cost of living for those consumers who purchase / use goods from a tariffed country.
Canada and Mexico are the U.S.’s largest trading partners (~$1.033 T in 2023). The major imports from these countries are petroleum & coal products ($271B), cars & car parts ($35.6B), electrical machinery & white goods ($85.6B), and nuclear reactors. The tariffs on just these products alone will cost Americans, on average, ~$237/ year for every man, woman, and child in the U.S. When you include the other $559.2B in imports, the costs to each American will go up to close to $667 per year. How is this not inflationary?
Who will be hurt? Canadians? Mexicans? Maybe a little but oil and gas are global commodities that will find a market elsewhere. (U.S. folks, expect to see your gas prices rise by $0.25 - $0.50 per gallon.) Washing machines and dryers, refrigerators, air-conditioners, etc., will die and need replacing so I don’t see those markets reducing in the U.S. Cars & trucks? Expect to see a jump of several hundred dollars for those new vehicles and expect to pay more for repair parts for our Fieros.
So, I ask again, who is going to suffer the most? Think carefully and you will be able to work it out.
Mr. Trump should forego blanket economic tariffs on Mexico and Canada, which are partners with the United States in the North America-wide USMCA trade deal he himself negotiated to replace NAFTA. But when it’s renewed in 2026, the free trade agreement should definitely include much higher duties for exports to the United States that are made largely outside this free trade zone. The current treaty sets out tough-sounding standards for these regional content requirements, but the tariff penalties for ignoring them are far too low to bite. Yet he should still feel free to continue to tariff both USMCA partners further if they fail to improve their efforts to stem flows of illegal opioids and aliens across their borders into the United States.
But again (referring to Canada and the US), that drug flow is going both ways across the border. We all want to see fentanyl trafficking eliminated.
I'm dumbfounded. Do you folks know how tariffs work? Do you know who will be hurt most?
Mike, some of these guys have no interest in how Trump's tariffs will actually affect the American public. Instead, they're taking some sort of perverse pleasure in how this will negatively impact the Canadian economy. Seriously, I don't get it. Canada is their closest neighbor/friend/ally... and they're actually gloating over how much Canada will suffer. It's disappointing to say the least.
Originally posted by Patrick: I doubted that Trump would be applying the 25% tariff on oil, and I was right. I was also counting on Trump having some sensibility (or better advisors), but now we know otherwise.
For whatever reason, Donald Trump has decided to penalize the US's closest neighbor/friend/ally with a devastating 25% tariff.. whereas with China, which is not a neighbor/friend/ally of the US at all, he has levied a much less severe 10% tariff. And this makes sense to you? You're in agreement with this?
With "friends" like this, who needs enemies!
Tell me Todd, what's the next decision of Trump's that you'll be championing... that the US take by force any natural resources in Canada that the US feels they require? I'm not joking, the writing's on the wall. It's already been demonstrated how easy it is to convince a large segment of the population why a particular action "needs" to be taken. This could get real damn ugly.
Yeah, you were convinced he would tax oil, if he did any tariffs at all... I told you it didn't make any sense, and that he likely wouldn't. Why would he? And then you went on and on about how he was already backing out, blah blah.
And no, I don't think the United States will take any natural resources from Canada. What I think will happen... is the Canadian economy will start to see an effect by the end of the week, and Trudeau will likely be forced to resign a bit more quickly, and they'll get someone else to replace him, who will meet with Trump and likely agree with needing to halt border crossings, and Trump will immediately rescind the tariff.
At this point, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's trying to expedite getting the left-leaning government out so he can have better negotiations with a conservative leader in your country.
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Originally posted by Mike in Sydney:
I'm dumbfounded. Do you folks know how tariffs work? Do you know who will be hurt most?
Yes, I think everything will work out exactly as planned.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-02-2025).]
I'm dumbfounded. Do you folks know how tariffs work? Do you know who will be hurt most?
Yes, I believe most of us know how tariffs work. The goal is not to impose tariffs. It is to encourage Canada and Mexico to assist in securing the border.
If we flip the question on its head, why would a country prefer higher tariffs imposed on their exports rather than assist in stopping the flow of Fentanyl and terrorists across the border?
[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 02-02-2025).]
Yes, I believe most of us know how tariffs work. The goal is not to impose tariffs. It is to encourage Canada and Mexico to assist in securing the border.
If we flip the question on its head, why would a country prefer higher tariffs imposed on their exports rather than assist in stopping the flow of Fentanyl and terrorists across the border?
I have no crystal ball, but I'd be absolutely gobsmacked if Trump actually follows through on the full25% tariff on all products imported into the US from Canada and Mexico. IMO, Trump's just blowing smoke. It's all part of the phony-baloney tough guy act, that you and like-minded individuals appear to worship.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
And no, I don't think the United States will take any natural resources from Canada. What I think will happen... is the Canadian economy will start to see an effect by the end of the week, and Trudeau will likely be forced to resign a bit more quickly, and they'll get someone else to replace him, who will meet with Trump and likely agree with needing to halt border crossings, and Trump will immediately rescind the tariff.
That's quite a fantasy!
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
At this point, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's trying to expedite getting the left-leaning government out so he can have better negotiations with a conservative leader in your country.
Wouldn't be the first time that the US has tried to interfere with the internal affairs of a sovereign nation... right Todd?
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Yes, I think everything will work out exactly as planned.
I bow to your omnipotence.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-02-2025).]
Mike, some of these guys have no interest in how Trump's tariffs will actually affect the American public. Instead, they're taking some sort of perverse pleasure in how this will negatively impact the Canadian economy. Seriously, I don't get it. Canada is their closest neighbor/friend/ally... and they're actually gloating over how much Canada will suffer. It's disappointing to say the least.
That's all right , Brother. We Commonwealth countries can hang together.
Hey, Here's an idea. Sell the oil to Australia. We import most of our petroleum products and almost all of our gasoline. Sell it to us. I'd like to see gas prices come down. I'm currently paying U.S. $4.57 / gal for RON98.
If we flip the question on its head, why would a country prefer higher tariffs imposed on their exports rather than assist in stopping the flow of Fentanyl and terrorists across the border?
They wouldn't. I don't know what Mexico has decided... but as of January 15th, Canada mandated an additional $1.3-billion to further strengthen the border. However, this border security "issue" with Canada is just a ruse for Trump to secure further revenue... so unless he's pressured from within the US itself, he's not going to end the cash cow.
Yes, I believe most of us know how tariffs work. The goal is not to impose tariffs. It is to encourage Canada and Mexico to assist in securing the border.
If we flip the question on its head, why would a country prefer higher tariffs imposed on their exports rather than assist in stopping the flow of Fentanyl and terrorists across the border?
Just how many illegal aliens come across the 49th parallel, anyway? I suspect, at present, the Candadians are more worried about U.S. citizens coming north.
As an aside, I can understand keeping Justin Bieber out and possibly Michael J. Fox but do you really want to keep out Celine Dion, Joni Mitchell, Sarah McLachlan, Niel Young, and K.D. Lang?
In fiscal year 2024 (October 2023 to September 2024), the number of U.S. Border Patrol (USBP) encounters at America’s northern border with Canada was nearly 200,000. Those at the U.S. border with Mexico, meanwhile, were 2.1 million.
So there are more than 10x the number of illegals crossing the border from Mexico into the States as there is from Canada. But in Trump's (and his lackey's) view, Canada rates right up there with Mexico.
Mike, some of these guys have no interest in how Trump's tariffs will actually affect the American public. Instead, they're taking some sort of perverse pleasure in how this will negatively impact the Canadian economy. Seriously, I don't get it. Canada is their closest neighbor/friend/ally... and they're actually gloating over how much Canada will suffer. It's disappointing to say the least.
Can't and won't speak for "some of these guys" but, I've stated several times that I hoped tariffs and other measures wouldn't have to be used. All DJT and we want out of this is a secured border. That seems to be a problem for both of our neighbors. Why aren't our bordering countries willing? If, Canada was our "closest neighbor/friendly/ally" we shouldn't have ever had the issue. My guess is, if we pay for it, our neighbors would go for it. What I do know is, freedom and security aren't free. The entire Northern Hemisphere has benefitted from our military and economic strength.
Yeah, it is disappointing it took all this to get some attention on the problem. Reference rising prices, it's worth it to solve several issues our neighbors don't seem to care about. I don't believe there's much I need from either of our bordering countries that I can't live without but there's always a chance.
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Originally posted by Patrick:
They wouldn't. I don't know what Mexico has decided... but as of January 15th, Canada mandated an additional $1.3-billion to further strengthen the border. However, this border security "issue" with Canada is just a ruse for Trump to secure further revenue... so unless he's pressured from within the US itself, he's not going to end the cash cow.
I'm going to take your word on that 1.3 Billion, is that sufficient to do the job? I don't know for sure, but that only came after DJT got your attention. When will Canada also pay it's full share of NATO dues?
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-02-2025).]
Just how many illegal aliens come across the 49th parallel, anyway? I suspect, at present, the Candadians are more worried about U.S. citizens coming north.
As an aside, I can understand keeping Justin Bieber out and possibly Michael J. Fox but do you really want to keep out Celine Dion, Joni Mitchell, Sarah McLachlan, Niel Young, and K.D. Lang?
Won't speak for anyone else but, I've had the opportunity to move that far north and turned it down. Reference those listed, Won't bother me one bit, they only came down south to make money.
I rarely check out websites that others provide. Have had to my laptop cleansed of crap too often so that's why I said what I said.
Reference moving to Canada, I'm pretty sure both of us are happier that I didn't . I have some very good military associated friends in Canada but, as they have advised me, they don't think I'd appreciate the way things are done there. No offense intended, I'm simply not into Wokeism.
Reference the "Broken Record" remark, pretty obvious some would prefer to ride on our coat tails. My suggestion would be to Man Up and pay your way.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-02-2025).]
Any response would just feed your ego, this is all you're going to get. Just hope your country steps up and does what it has promised to do. Up to this point, it's painfully clear it won't without pressure.
Won't speak for anyone else but, I've had the opportunity to move that far north and turned it down. Reference those listed, Won't bother me one bit, they only came down south to make money.
So there are more than 10x the number of illegals crossing the border from Mexico into the States as there is from Canada. But in Trump's (and his lackey's) view, Canada rates right up there with Mexico.
That is a misrepresentation of the numbers, the number of people caught does not equate to the number of people "crossing". The US Mexico border is less than 2000 miles long, and according to the C.B.P. official statistics, had nearly 17,000 officers in 2020 (newest I could find), whereas the Canadian border is over 5500 miles long and they only had 2000 officers. So the Mexican border has 8.5x the number of officers, covering a third the area. Equating to 8.5 officers per mile of Mexican border, and 0.36 for the Canadian border, 24 times the enforcement. Of course a finer filter will catch more debris, if the Mexican border caught 10x the people with 20x the enforcement, then that would logically mean that either people at the Canadian border are twice as easy to catch, or twice as many are crossing (I'm definitely not saying that's true, just saying that that 10x number means nothing without more context, and it definitely does not mean how many people were crossing, only the ones that got caught). I'd have concerns to if my cheese grater were stopping mosquitoes in place of a window screen, the very fact that the mosquitoes are big enough or plentiful enough to get caught once in a while over the incredibly unregulated and unmanned Canadian border would be as worrying as 10 times the number getting caught on the much heavier regulated Mexican border.
If I wanted to, I could right this moment walk from my bedroom down to the river, walk across it (frozen) and be in the US, with the nearest border patrol officer or police officer half an hour drive away, I'm honestly surprised any illegal aliens get caught at the Canadian border, both sides have so many unwatched gaps.
[This message has been edited by 1985 Fiero GT (edited 02-02-2025).]
You really really need to read This post from much earlier in this very thread.
I do agree that Trump should up the manpower on that border, but that's not what you were talking about, you were talking about how many people the US catches illegally crossing, and I showed it was an entirely unfair comparison and misrepresentation of the numbers, whether it is Canada's fault or not, the US is still catching 2.5x more illegal aliens from the Canadian side per mile/border guard than the Mexican side.
...whether it is Canada's fault or not, the US is still catching 2.5x more illegal aliens from the Canadian side per mile/border guard than the Mexican side.
Sorry, but what an absolutely ludicrous way to be rationalizing Trump's decision to be implementing a 25% tariff on Canada. Damn, that's some convoluted logic!
Sorry, but what an absolutely ludicrous way to be rationalizing Trump's decision to be implementing a 25% tariff on Canada. Damn, that's some convoluted logic!
Don't put words in my mouth, I have not voiced my opinion one way or the other, I only pointed out your misrepresentation of the numbers.
Don't put words in my mouth, I have not voiced my opinion one way or the other, I only pointed out your misrepresentation of the numbers.
I'm "misrepresenting" the numbers??!!! Wow, that's almost funny considering what you've done with them!
Trump has stated the reason for the tariffs is due to Canada not preventing illegal aliens and drugs from entering the US. I posted a link for you to read which basically states that each country is responsible for what enters their own country. Working out how many illegal aliens cross the borders "per mile/border guard" has got to be one of the most asinine wastes of math I've ever come across. lol And it's just the thing that some MAGA lackey will now wish to use as an argument in favor of their master's power-trip tariff plan.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-03-2025).]
Wow, that's almost funny considering what you've done with them!
