Originally posted by TheDigitalAlchemist: I'd rather pay a yearly fee than see more ads.
A forum that I am admin on (that has 600,000+ users) actually charges a $15 yearly fee for "plus membership". These memberships include amenities such as an email address at the domain & no-ads. Free memberships are riddled with ads. Also once a member reaches a certain activity level, I think 500+ posts, they get added to the "plus membership". Some forum members continue to pay the annual fee of $15 because they believe in what they are supporting. Others don't, & that's fine.
Cliff, This is what I was referring to in my post. Glad JohnWPB showed example.
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
A bit off the original topic, but I am glad you mentioned that. I have bookmarked many helpful threads on here over the past years. Most of them now go to a 404 not found page here on PFF. HERE IS ONE EXAMPLE. That link is actually a tutorial that I did on how to change the gauge needle colors in the dash.
These are ALL broken:
HERE is one on how to change the distributor step by step. HERE is one on how to remove the drip guards above the windows HERE is something I bookmarked as an option for a trunk light replacement
I am discouraged now to even bookmark pages here on PFF. I have to keep my fingers crossed that someone posts "Bump to keep out of the archives" every month or so, or it goes away..... It seems like "The Archives" are always breathing down our necks.
I have always wondered, what is the purpose of the archives, I have never seen this on other forums. If the posts are kept in "the archives" then it is not a storage issue. So if "All threads ever started on PFF still exist", why put them into another location and break all the links that people have to them, and just make them much much harder to find?
While the Fiero is in decline there are many other models that are just carrying right along fine with no ill effects. Cars like the Mustang, Camaro and Corvette are the centers of the market as are trucks.
Yes, but I'll bet the Mustang, Camaro, Corvette and truck forums are slower than they used to be. As are forums for just about every other hobby or activity you can think of. Social media like Facebook and Twitter (and the ability to see them on your phones) are dominating people's "internet" time more so than ever.
In the 90s we had email lists and bulletin boards; in the 2000s everyone was on forums. In the 2010s its all moved to smartphones and social media.
I have been a member since 2004. Well, as Robertzep... changed to Robertzep2 after a bit of a Fiero hiatus. I have to agree with most here, I don't need to post much. The reason why is easy... most problems, theory and such has been answered. Usually, a quick search and I find literally hundreds of threads with solutions. I do use the mall several times daily. I have bought and sold quite a lot from there, met some great people. I would be a complete loss without this forum. I do hope Cliff, if you ever plan to pull the plug on this site, you would at least make a searchable database of an archive of this whole forum. A forum like this would only benefit from facebook as a means to advertise it. As others have stated, you can't search from it. Cliff, would you care to share with us your vision of what you mentioned about an update to PFF? I for one have no problem with ads or paid membership if it helps pay the bills.
I've been a member since 2001, original name FieroDave2001, later had Cliff change me to my existing name.
My normal use of PFF, I do check in daily, starting with Fiero chat, moving to off O/T , Other cars, Mall. When I need info to keep my cars running, I do use the forum as a reference point. It's the best source I've seen.
I've noticed the forum postings slowing down a also. I do treasure the friendships I've made here, am deeply saddened when we lose any members that pass away.
I have turned many younger Fiero owners to our forum as I meet them. Most are amazed at the wealth of information.
I have had 3 fieros including a brand new one in 1985. In 2000 I joined and my name then was 85JJ2M6 or something similar. Early on there were 2 or 3 times when I posted and got what I perceived as a nasty reply back. I stopped coming to the forum as frequently. Now, I don't think about such things and I returned in force with a recent purchase of an 87 GT. I think the tone of the forum is more positive and I would rather see fewer posts that are more supportive. Great job! I am reading and checking search multiple times per day, but I rarely post. There are probably many like me who barely open the hood of their car without consulting the forum . And you never know it! Thanks Cliff!
As I am 23 years old I can speak to my part of the younger demographic, although I am not representative of everybody my age. I personally try to get on forums for everything rather than Facebook or other social media sites. I'm on a Cadillac forum for my Seville and a forum for my phones and tablets. This forum though, is absolutely the best I've ever been on. People on here for the most part are extremely friendly and so helpful, and I wouldn't be on my second Fiero without this place.
I've been a member for a while and I have witnessed a slight drop in activity since I've joined, but it is still very much active enough for me to jump into the forums multiple times a day (I'd rather not say exactly how many times!). I too am worried about the future of the Fiero, not only as the number of people who know what they are is decreasing, but there seems to be relatively few young people into working on cars. Out of all of the people I've become acquainted with through college, only one has been into working on cars like I am. But all my friends think my car is awesome, and I think that will continue on. They are very cool looking cars, and young people seem to respond well to them, but as I said, if those people can't or don't want to work on them, they probably won't be all that appealing to buy. With all that said though, with the wealth of information on this forum, all someone needs is a toolbox and they can do anything they need to do on these little cars, so there may be hope after all!
But this thread/post is making me sad, so I'm going to go click through a build thread to cheer up haha
I attribute the reduced interest in the Fiero forum to a few factors: 1. The economy. Despite what the media propagandists tell you, the economy is in sad shape. REAL unemployment is at an all time high. That is affecting the automotive hobby big time. 2. The car collector audience is aging. More collectors and enthusiasts are leaving the hobby than younger people joining it. Young people are still coming into the hobby but at a slower rate than in the past. Despite the rah rah rah of "change"College graduates cannot find employment so how are they going to fund a hobby? 3. It's winter time and large parts of the USA are heading into cold weather periods. People like myself don't participate much in the Fiero hobby or drive collector vehicles during late fall and winter. 4. Long time Fiero owners/hobbyists sometimes just sit back on the sidelines and casually enjoy their cars. Many of them have brought their cars to the condition that they want and are seeking no further improvements so there is little to discuss here. 5. The Fiero is an 80's automobile and those that remain are mostly driven as show/hobby cars. You don't see Fieros on the road very often and the modern technology sports cars are far more impressive. I am certain that the Fiero hobby , like the hot rodding hobby will survive and move forward but perhaps at a slower rate than before. IMO, the Fiero is a "cult classic" and is very attractive (or will become attractive) to those seeking to own an unusual low production automobile. The Nash Metropolitan, Saturn Sky, Chrysler Crossfire, Pontiac Solstice, Chevy Corvair, Buick Reatta, Chrysler TC by Maserati , all fit into the same "cult classic" category.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-24-2013).]
Well I guess I have to jump in here for the younger guys lol. I am 23 and I can tell you this as far as the younger guys go around here they don't get the knowledge they need to maintain a car let alone build one. Too many public schools are concerned with computers and such rather than math and a wrench. I am just kinda concerned about what will happen when all the old guys that maintain things die off or retire. Lets face it unless they can come up with a way to 3D print a house or a car we are all screwed fellas. People want to buy a fast car not build one and lets face it most commuter cars are faster than our cars were from new...well atleast the dukes.
Could be a cycle and/or a little bit of dying. Yes there are less Fieros too. Also now there is so much knowledge In it that many find the answers on a search and don't post. FB? Not interested if I can't search. FB will die too sooner or later.
I attribute the reduced interest in the Fiero forum to a few factors:
4. Long time Fiero owners/hobbyists sometimes just sit back on the sidelines and casually enjoy their cars. Many of them have brought their cars to the condition that they want and are seeking no further improvements so there is little to discuss here.
I wish I was in this category... My cars still need lots of work before I can enjoy them, but I'm at the point now where I just want to casually enjoy them. What to do, what to do??
Myself included, I do think interest in Fiero's overall is fading away as time goes on, Old-time members leaving or passing away, or moving on in life towards different things, and a very small amount of new members show up here these days.
However I do not think Forums themselves are dieing. I'm part of the Chevy Cruze forum, Cruzetalk.com, and have been a very active member since I bought my 2012 Cruze ECO last week. That place is booming, with tons of new members posting everyday, and a huge wealth of information already documented. They even have GM reps there posting for customer assistance. It's a new, popular car that has great reviews and is just an awesome compact car IMO. But this too, will fade out someday.
Same concept with the Riviera fourm I'm part of, in 2007 that place was booming, now it's pretty dead as owners sell/scrap there cars and move on.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 11-24-2013).]
I wish I was in this category... My cars still need lots of work before I can enjoy them, but I'm at the point now where I just want to casually enjoy them. What to do, what to do??
I know the feeling, I told myself that I needed to have them done by the time I reach 50. I lied to myself and everyone around me Getting ready to get rid of most of my parts and trim back to only two cars and a small truck to haul **** around town in.
It will have to get really bad for me to get rid of the Fiero, I have been close to selling the Vette but I have only thought about selling the Fiero once the entire time I have owned it.
this thread was on top when I popped in here for a periodic visit, and was kinda what I was wondering personally for myself.
this was the first forum I joined when I got on the 'net, and only stopped being a regular when I had to let the fieros sit for a while. I'm hoping to be financially able to start playing with them again this coming year, but also wondering if I should. I probably will I guess, so if the forum's still around by then I may become a more regular member again.
There was a time when I was on here every day. These days I tend to come and go so there are times when I don't pay a visit for a couple (or more) weeks. But that does not mean I don't love my Fieros any less, just that I'm getting too old to work on them all the time and I don;'t drive them so much in the summer (a/c issues) so I have fewer things to look up. Can't speak for anyone else though.
------------------ Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!
It''s a damn shame but the car scene as a whole is dying, This is not the only car forum I have seen starting to dwindle. a HUGE forum site I used to frequent is not lucky to get 10 posts a day,
I'm 26 and not only own 3 fieros I own 3 that Id like to think of as Very desirable fieros...
[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 11-25-2013).]
I've noticed a rapid decline on here and even the Grand Prix forums where Ilook for info on the 3800 platform, etc. It's all Lsx and the new 5.0L that's getting attention. I'm 32 now and absolutely still love the Fiero. It's one of those things that makes us all unique. We have a passion for something different. I think more people would own Fieros especially the younger crowd but there are less and less Fieros out there. This forum is awesome and it started a lot of builds. I still want to see this Forum go on!!
I'm 27 years old about to be 28 I just recently bought my Fiero and joined the forum I honestly think that the fact you have to have an ISP email address might detour a lot of people from joining. I realize it keeps some of the spammers out and and keeps people from trash talking a bit but I never used my ISP email until I joined this forum had to actually call Comcast to figure out what it was. Other than that though I think part of the reason for decline in posts could be the fact that people are actually searching the existing posts and finding answers instead of just posting questions.
The only reason I'm asking is because I'm noticing the number of visitors to PFF has been steadily decreasing over the past two years.
I see a major decline in "organic" traffic. Meaning, people coming in from search engines.
Could this be due to your forum being the first place people come because your forum is well known and popular, hence no need for an external search engine?
Could this be due to your forum being the first place people come because your forum is well known and popular, hence no need for an external search engine?
I also see a huge decline in the number of new posts per day. I did a check yesterday and compared 2008 to 2013. In all of 2008, the forum averaged 1065 new posts per day. In 2013 there were on average 667 new posts per day.
Although still pretty high, that's a serious drop.
I also see a huge decline in the number of new posts per day. I did a check yesterday and compared 2008 to 2013. In all of 2008, the forum averaged 1065 new posts per day. In 2013 there were on average 667 new posts per day.
Although still pretty high, that's a serious drop.
I went back because I thought I saw a graph of visits, and although the visits had dropped, they seemed to be stabilizing. Of course, now I don't see that graph..hmm need more coffee...
Also, now that this has come up, I looked at the donor list and noticed I was no longer donating. No idea when that stopped, so I renewed it. Definitely wort it for the best forum on the net.
thanx Cliff (and everyone else for that matter)
Bob
[This message has been edited by RCR (edited 11-25-2013).]
Cliff I would focus on the technical stuff below to keep younger members. If you set it up so someone could "Share" from PFF to facebook it might grow members who see something shared or liked from PFF, on their facebook.
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Originally posted by fierogtlt1:
This is and have always been a great forum to get as much knowledge as possible about our cars.I have been lurking on here for a couple years but didn't even sign up until last year.I have noticed that there is a like button on all topics posted,but doesn't show on your Facebook page that you liked anything from Pennocks at all.
quote
Originally posted by jetsnvettes2000:
If I could change anything about the forum for the future it would be that it is a little easier to use with my phone, I guess I am old fashion and do not have a smart phone but I do have a internet capable phone and when on facebook I am able to upload pics and stuff. On here I can only browse the topics and get to my mailbox. For some reason it does not let me comment in threads?
I work in the performance aftermarket and we have never had a better year. The economy sucks but many people are spending and telling us they will spend it now to get the car and things they need or want before the government taxes their money away.
I have been in fear of the economy but the auto hobby is still strong and collector car prices have never been higher.
People with lots of money still have it, those with less have less, Fiero owners tend to be on the lower end. Going by auctions, in person or televised, I have seen the opposite, lowest sale prices over the past few years. If one had money, the last few years have been the time to buy buy buy. But some of this is regional as well.
Maybe we could combat the come & go technical questions with some participation discussion. Such as Monthly photos, member of the month, those kinds of forum participation topics. I realize that discussion about a 30 year old car can be repetitive, but forum activity is easily duplicated regardless of the overall topic, imo.
I know I've withheld my own participation over the years because I didn't want to ask stupid questions, or bring obviously redundant topics.
It`s not only wrenching on cars that is in a decline. As technology moves ahead I think a lot of hands on tasks are dwindling. I`m not meaning to sound sexist but how many young women do you know who can cook homemade biscuits. There are a number of tasks that men and women over the years have traditionally done that are becoming a lost art.
I have been on the forum a relatively short time compared to some of you founding members, however I have been aware of the change in atmosphere the last several months. Many insightful, innovative and creative owners have been driven off the board by a few "bullies"
While I agree with many of the views stated previously, I have a slightly differing view on several of the points made.
1) While fewer Fiero are on the road, the core enthusiast tend to seek out dying or at least languishing cars and rescue/recycle them when possible.
2) Some older owners, myself included, may be finding it harder to actually get in and out of a low slung commuter car as our flexibility wains so they step back from the hobby.
3) The lazy language and lack of popper grammar and punctuation make it nearly impossible to read many a post. This is especially evident on a handheld device. Is spell check really that hard to use?
4) The economy may be in the dumps (although the Guberment would like to convince you otherwise) however many Fiero owners are notoriously cheap and they perpetuate that mindset. They somehow feel that paying less is always a better deal and have no problem stealing ideas and concepts without due compensation. That is not to say the there aren't several on here that are not afraid to spend and give props to those who inspired them but this also leads to the issue of respect.
5) I personally think the main reason many people have quit posting and/or visiting is the blatant lack of respect and common decency shown by several of the members, many long time users, toward anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint. OT imbroglios spill over into the General and Tech section and then the childish nature of hiding behind a screen name comes out. Many users have just grown tired on the juvenile BS and have chosen to go elsewhere. Although this may well be a generation gap issue, the lack of maturity on here is astounding at times, the older members are equally guilty of their attitude of superiority shown toward newer members. Some of us don't need to prove we have a bigger dic& by one upping and/or being critical of another members choices. The only one I need to impress is myself.
Finally, with the huge wealth of information at my fingertips from the generous members of PFF, I am truly thankful for the assistance many have so seamlessly provided to people like me. I'm an old Cobra guy that knew squat about the Fiero (although I bought one of the first cars sold to the public years ago), I have asked endless questions about very basic electrical concepts and although only a portion has sunk in without PFF I would have given up before I even started.
Happy Thanksgiving you big rafter of Turkeys!
Pax,
Dr. W.
------------------ Is your Fastback GT's trunk seal shot? My Gen IV replacement GT trunk seals with miter double bonded corners are now in production. $95 + $15 flat rate shipping to the US (contact me for international shipping rates) or buy two and pay only a single shipping rate! More info can be found here GT Trunk Seal Project
[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 11-25-2013).]
The only reason I'm asking is because I'm noticing the number of visitors to PFF has been steadily decreasing over the past two years. Yes, I realize there are more Fiero sites out there and that they might be eating into PFF's traffic, but I see a major decline in "organic" traffic. Meaning, people coming in from search engines. People simply search less and less for Fiero related subjects on the major search engines.
So is the Fiero market slowly dying? There are a finite number of Fiero's still in existence, and that number is getting smaller and smaller since no new Fiero's are being made and more and more Fiero's are "destroyed".
So what do you think? How long before the Fiero is nothing more than a fond memory?
Factors I see happening:
The number of Fieros is finite and decreasing
The number of people interested in Fieros seems to be decreasing
Fiero owners are getting older
The CARS are getting older, with reducing parts availability
Young people seem more interested in imports
We stopped doing the Fiero Westfest car show in 2009 because interest in showing Fieros had dropped to a level that could not financially sustain a dedicated car show. Golden Gate Fieros used to have as many as 30 people attending monthly meetings. That number is now less than 10. The interest level seems to be trending downward.
Originally posted by infinitewill: 5) I personally think the main reason many people have quit posting and/or visiting is the blatant lack of respect and common decency shown by several of the members, many long time users, toward anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint. OT imbroglios spill over into the General and Tech section and then the childish nature of hiding behind a screen name comes out. Many users have just grown tired on the juvenile BS and have chosen to go elsewhere. Although this may well be a generation gap issue, the lack of maturity on here is astounding at times, the older member are equally guilty of their attitude of superiority shown toward newer members. Some of us don't need to prove we have a bigger dic& by one upping and/or being critical of another members choices. The only one I need to impress is myself.
Finally, with the huge wealth of information at my fingertips from the generous members of PFF, I am truly thankful for the assistance many have so seamlessly provided to people like me. I'm an old Cobra guy that knew squat about the Fiero (although I bought one of the first cars sold to the public years ago), I have asked endless questions about very basic electrical concepts and although only a portion has sunk in without PFF I would have given up before I even started.
This x2
Although, recently it's gotten a bit better. Not sure which pinheads left because the nicknames are not easy to remember for an "old fart" but I'm glad they're gone.
Banned, bored, ignored or dead, makes no difference. It's addition by subtraction.
I think the fact is "hobby'ing' fieros was a fad that has ran its course.. Fieros have been cheap enough for long enough that anyone looking for a toy fiero has bought one, or 10 and is either currently sitting on them and not talking about it, or in the process of selling them off. Now the stuff thats left is the remnents of the fad that was made possible by things like this forum, the fiero store, etc... People get bored of things.
The Grand prix forums are in the same boat.. the demographic of grand prix owners had their grand prixs, now they are all doomed for commuter junk cars as they sell off their old boring car. The new owner doesnt search on the internet much because they just drive it, and when it breaks they have someone else fix it....
I think the fact is "hobby'ing' fieros was a fad that has ran its course.. Fieros have been cheap enough for long enough that anyone looking for a toy fiero has bought one, or 10 and is either currently sitting on them and not talking about it, or in the process of selling them off. Now the stuff thats left is the remnents of the fad that was made possible by things like this forum, the fiero store, etc... People get bored of things.
I agree, its not like there are a bunch of kids who are 10 thinking... "boy I can't wait until I am old enough to drive so I can buy a Fiero". They are hobby cars now. As the Pres of the local Fiero club we have been dealing with this same issue (membership) for the last 5-7 years now. At one time (1998, 1999 ish) we had over 40 members, now we are lucky to have 9. Some older members still have their cars, but don't want to be part of a club any longer, i'd bet its the same with the Fourm. But on a positive note, a co-worker just got his son a 1984 SE and he's loving the car, been to the house 2x to work on it. So there are some younger kids out there ready to take our place.
Thanks again Cliff, and i'd pay an annual fee too before losing this site.
So the question is how do we recreate interest in the car? We need the younger generation, who often say it's a cool car to be interested in it. How about a reality show featuring mechanics and all the things you can do with our cars? We have enough people on this forum to brainstorm and who knows maybe some people have contacts in the industry.
I also see a huge decline in the number of new posts per day. I did a check yesterday and compared 2008 to 2013. In all of 2008, the forum averaged 1065 new posts per day. In 2013 there were on average 667 new posts per day.
Although still pretty high, that's a serious drop.
I for one do not believe the Fiero following would be what it is today without PFF. This forum has cultivated enthusiasm for these cars that would have never happened otherwise and I think we're lucky there's still 1,700 people a day posting here about it. This is a totally anecdotal thing to say, but I bet without PFF the mass following of this car would have died out completely by now.
I do not believe forum integration with Facebook would work very well. I think you need to have a strong Facebook group and a strong forum group. The members that belong to both will be your connection between the two platforms. A "share this on Facebook" button won't do it.
A modern forum design isn't a bad idea, but really there's nothing wrong with this design. I can't imagine how you could make changes to improve this design, it already has modern features and of all the forums I'm on I don't see anything missing here but the advertisements... Most forums charge vendors an extra fee to have the privilege to post things about their companies and items for sale, and I think that would be OK to implement as it is standard practice nowadays.
On my website (www.TLG-Auto.com) I've noticed roughly half the Fiero business in 2013 when comparing to 2011. Also, used parts are much harder to come by on this forum and on eBay.
It's waning but that doesn't mean it will die off completely or any time soon. I saw this in the '80's with Corvairs. My dad and I were members of CORSA (The Corvair Society of America) and it was very active for a number of years, then activity started declining. But even today they're still around and there's still interest in Corvairs.
At some point around 20-30 years old, they begin to either fade into obscurity or become more desirable as collectibles.
I wonder who is posting the majority of them 
