quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Just how many religions are there out there today? OK, now what one is right? They all are different, yet the believers of each say theirs is the only right version of Gods teaching, sayings, words.

Steve, look into what each of them says, ultimately, and determine for yourself. That's all anyone can ask.

For me, Christianity is internally consistent, and the message is simple. Sin separates us from the Holiness of our Creator. There was, for hundreds of years, a sacrificial system - blood pays for blood - but, as humans, we made it something that it was not meant to be, so God sent His Son to be the Once and Supreme sacrifice that whoever accepts that act for himself, is commuted the standing before God that he doesn't deserve. I become His, bought with a price, and my old nature had been replaced with a desire to be and act as He would have me. It doesn't happen all at once - you can find, if you want, examples on the Forum in which I haven't lived up to the title "Christian" - but this cracked pot is being remolded constantly by the Potter. I know it's real because it's in my heart. And I won't convince you. I can only hope that He leads you (and others) to the same place that I was 30 years ago.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Sorry that I'm a couple days late - the wife and I got away for a couple nights for our 20th Anniversary. If you look into the past in this thread, I have already addressed this. There is more archaeological evidence in the form of codexes and partial documents that verify the accuracy of the Bible beyond that of any other historical text - including the works of William Shakespeare, which is hundreds of years more recent. If you are comfortable with the accuracy of Plato's "Republic" or "Beowulf," then you can't be disingenuous in denying the transmission of the Bible from the past two to three millennia. Again, no book in history has been vetted as much as the Bible, from within the Christian community and without. Denying it's accuracy is akin to wearing a tin foil hat.

You may be right. It was just an entertaining quote from a comedian. If I was going to debate theism, I wouldn't be posting comedic quotes.

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: You don't make a choice to have a lack of belief.

Want to add:

Lack of believe or 'atheism' is the default position. Everyone is born atheist, as infants don't have the capacity to understand deities. At some point, you make the choice to believe.

It could be argued that an atheist that was once a theist has 'made a choice.' But not one that has always lacked belief in the supernatural.

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: Want to add: Lack of believe or 'atheism' is the default position. Everyone is born atheist, as infants don't have the capacity to understand deities. At some point, you make the choice to believe. It could be argued that an atheist that was once a theist has 'made a choice.' But not one that has always lacked belief in the supernatural.

And even more horse **** .

This post was spared by god or the universe, you decide.

Any person making a claim such as "a god exists" has the burden of proof.

Typically, people in this situation attempt to shift the burden of proof by saying, "You can't prove god does not exist." That is a common misdirection technique.

Using the burden of proof logic for god one could state, "Unicorns exist. You can't tell me they don't exist because you can't prove they don't exist!" You see how silly that is?

A real life example: I can tell you, "I won the lottery and have $10,000,000.00 in my bank account." It makes sense nobody would believe I won the lottery unless I could furnish PROOF of my funds. My ability to convince you that I won does not mean I won. It would only mean either you are very gullible or the person arguing is very persuasive or both. (aka sophistry)

The same is true for religion. You cannot use your ability to convince others that something exists, without proof, as a reason for it's existence.


So what argument comes in here? "But the bible has been around for years and is famous etc. etc."
So 1,000,000 people are going to jump off a bridge would you do the same?
Herd mentality does not count as proof. Religion = herd mentality w/o proof.

Another argument is circular logic: Quoting the bible as reason for existence of a supreme being. So you will quote the topic in debate as a proof for the topic's existence? That makes no sense. It is like me saying I know the sky is blue because the sky is blue..... ???
I could also argue Harry Potter is a true story because people talk about it and read the book and they have movies and action figures.....

Another argument is the fallacy of superstition, "I cannot explain it so by default GOD!" In the past people created creatures and beings such as dragons and flying saucers etc. to explain natural events not yet understood by humanity. Using a god as an explanation is a default defense mechanism and does not prove anything. Most of the time these "gods" are proven as myths once science catches up.

Enjoy.... Debate time.....

[This message has been edited by xquaid (edited 09-20-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: In the Bible, Lucifer the angel of light never committed any acts of evil. .

The first one was jealousy / envy.

quote Originally posted by xquaid: Any person making a claim such as "a god exists" has the burden of proof. ... "I cannot explain it so by default GOD!" Using a god as an explanation is a default defense mechanism and does not prove anything. Most of the time these "gods" are proven as myths once science catches up. Enjoy.... Debate time.....

I would say the burden of proof does also lay with these men to explain things they still cannot. I suppose the burden essentially lies with those who admit they have it, also which burden is heavier. Of course scientific measure isnt all we have in this life either.

"The story goes that God and an evolutionist were having a conversation. God stated that he had made man from the dirt of the ground.
The evolutionist replied that with the advancements in technology today and the unlocking of the genetic code we as scientists have unraveled the mystery of how man was made and with all of this knowledge he could create life as well.
"Well show me," answered God.
The evolutionist then proceeded to take a large amount of dirt and start his experiment. God said wait a just one moment. The evolutionist said what is the matter? God said make you own dirt!"

We can see things, we can learn what is out there, we can measure things, we can put things in a different order, but where it came from is not answered.

Think about this too, even if they somehow pull it off..creating life..all they are proving is that INTELLIGENT beings can create life.

-

I thought some of this was kind of related:

"From the outside, you can't tell what is inside a black hole. You can throw television sets, diamond rings, or even your worst enemies into a black hole, and all the black hole will remember, is the total mass, and the state of rotation.

As particles escape from a black hole the hole will lose mass, and shrink.This will increase the rate of emission of particles. Eventually, the black hole will lose all its mass, and disappear. What then happens to all the particles and unlucky astronauts, that fell into the black hole. They can't just re-emerge when the black hole disappears. The particles that come out of a black hole, seem to be completely random, and to bear no relation to what fell in. It appears that the information about what fell in, is lost, apart from the total amount of mass, and the amount of rotation. But if information is lost, this raises a serious problem that strikes at the heart of our understanding of science. For more than 200 years, we have believed in Scientific determinism, that is, that the laws of science, determine the evolution of the universe. This was formulated by La~plass as, If we know the state of the universe at one time, the laws of science will determine it at all future and past times.

Napoleon is said to have asked La~plass how God fitted into this picture. La~plass replied, Sire, I have not needed that hypothesis. I don't think that La~plass was claiming that God didn't exist. It is just that He doesn't intervene, to break the laws of Science. That must be the position of every scientist. A scientific law, is not a scientific law, if it only holds when some supernatural being, decides to let things run, and not intervene.

If information were lost in black holes, we wouldn't be able to predict the future, because a black hole could emit any collection of particles. It could emit a working television set, or a leather bound volume of the complete works of Shakespeare, though the chance of such exotic emissions is very low. It is much more likely to be thermal Radiation, like the glow from red hot metal. It might seem that it wouldn't matter very much if we couldn't predict what comes out of black holes.There aren't any black holes near us. But it is a matter of principle. If determinism breaks down with black holes, it could break down in other situations. There could be virtual black holes that appear as fluctuations out of the vacuum, absorb one set of particles, emit another, and disappear into the vacuum again. Even worse, if determinism breaks down, we can't be sure of our past history either.The history books and our memories could just be illusions. It is the past that tells us who we are. Without it, we lose our identity. " Stephen Hawking

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-16-2013).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: The first one was jealousy / envy.

You are talking about god right? Because he portrayed those sins when he angrily and hatefully cast Lucifer out of heaven.

quote Originally posted by Corvus: Any bets, yet, on when this thread will degrade to the point that it gets tossed in the trash can?

3 pages, and it hasn't yet.

quote Originally posted by ray b: there was no world wide flood

No, but from the view point of the people back then it may have seemed like it was .. It was *their* entire world.. And they tried to describe it the best they could.

Myself, while i don't believe in any of the 'deity' angle of the bible, i do think that many ( not all ) of the historical events may have actually happened, just not exactly as written due to the fact the events were interpreted by rather frightened people who had a severely limited view of the world and zero science to help them.