quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: No, you must be a bonafide born again Christian before you die. The Catholic church is heretical, do not listen to them. http://carm.org/jesus-saves

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 09-13-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You have free will to think that, but I believe that is misguided. If you're drowning in a lake, unable to swim and someone offers to help you if you take their hand, you are free to not accept their help. That doesn't mean they planned for you to drown. The choice is always yours. Loving someone has no meaning if they have no choice but to love you. It's only when they have the free will not to, but choose to, that gives it meaning.

But what if you are actually swimming ?

quote Originally posted by Raydar: "My way or the highway" Right? I'm getting pretty damned sick of you.

/concur. As I've said before, it's people like him that make me question why I believe. You know I made this pic for MEM, but I think I'm going to use it here.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: la la la .. highway to hell .. la la la Oh wait, wrong story

Why is there a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven?

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: ILU!!!

Well, don't.

It's not one of my better moments.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: "My way or the highway" Right? I'm getting pretty damned sick of you.

Me too.

Over the years I have had oppertunities to speak with several Religious "leaders" or communities and faith or lack there of. I find that the more enlightened ones all tend to believe that IF heaven and hell exist.. And IF God exists, It is not an exclusive club. but instead would be open to all those who were good in their lives. And most will tell you the Bible is not the word of God. It is the Word of God as understood by man at the time. It has also been rewritten so many times it is not funny.

If you want to accept the Bible as the Word of God, Then you have to accept the Old Testiment ONLY as the word of god.. And personally, I do not know a single person alive today who would make it into Heaven if the Old Testiment is the word of God.. And that includes 1985Fiero.

However, I do not personally believe in Heaven or Hell. Am I wrong? Possibly... but probably not. Let's face it, if God IS real.. Then he is a mean fat kid, with a magnifing glass over an ant hill.
In which case we are all screwed anyway. Which really fits in witht he Old Testiment way of thinking anyway. That God was a very mean and vengeful god. Who liked to play horrible tricks on even his most faithful.

And let's not even get into what the Old Testiment "God" Considered punishable by death....
How about being raped in public.. Yep, if a woman was raped in public, she was to be put to death. It if happened in private.. she could live. Deuteronomy 22:25
Or how about lieing about being a virgin.. Yep, women were to be put to death... Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Or maybe try to tell someone abotu any other religion... Yep, Stoned to death.. Deuteronomy 13:1-11
And what if the majority of the people in a town are of a different religion? Yep, Burn the town, all the people.. Even the Christians and all the animals. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
Did you ever Cuss your parents? Yea, you probably did. Well by the Old Testament, you are to be put to death... Exodus 21:17
Were you a rebelous teenager? Did you drink as a minor? Oh yea... you gotta Die!!! Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Did your Dog, Bull, Horse, Pig get out and kill a human? Oh yea.. you die.. Exodus 21:29

These won't get your killed.. But you won't get into heaven!

Do you like your steak rare? Sorry.. That is a Sin.. Genesis 9:4
Like a little fat on your steak? Nope.. you are going to hell.. Leviticus 3:17
How about Bacon.. Everyone loves Bacon... Sorry it is a one way ticket to Hell Leviticus 11:7-8
I bet you LOVE Lobster and Oysters right? Sorry that is Satans food and you are going to hell ... Deuteronomy 14:9-10
How about wearing Synthetic clothes... Oh yea! Leviticus 19:19
Did you Plant Corn AND carrots in the same field? Well Small combined gardens are a sin!! Leviticus 19:19

Did you Boss make you work on Sunday? Guess what? You are going to Hell Exodus 20:10

There are Hundreds more examples of everyday stuff that will send you to hell in the Old Testiment.. Which is the book GOD wrote.....


Yes, I am an Athiest. But I am a VERY well informed Athiest. I probably know more about religions than many of you. I have spent 20 years of my life studying the world religions and their history.

[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 09-13-2013).]

Just a couple of things:

quote Originally posted by 8Ball: Over the years I have had opportunities to speak with several Religious "leaders" or communities and faith or lack there of. I find that the more enlightened ones all tend to believe that IF heaven and hell exist.. And IF God exists, It is not an exclusive club. but instead would be open to all those who were good in their lives. And most will tell you the Bible is not the word of God. It is the Word of God as understood by man at the time. It has also been rewritten so many times it is not funny.

So, they're only enlightened if they agree with you?

The translations that I read (NET, NIV, NKJV, OJB) are derived from the earliest completes and fragments, all which agree with each other with only minor, inconsequential grammatical errors among them. In fact, for how old the book is, it's amazing that we didn't mess it up more. If you can't accept the accuracy of the Bible - the most vetted book in history - then you cannot accept any book from history, including Beowulf, Plato, Aristotle, or even Shakespeare. The Bible, for the hundreds of years that it was written over, is amazingly internally consistent. Add to the fact the recent archaeological finds that are confirming that David and Solomon were kings when and where the Bible says that they were, and it shows to be historically accurate, as well.

quote If you want to accept the Bible as the Word of God, Then you have to accept the Old Testament ONLY as the word of god.. And personally, I do not know a single person alive today who would make it into Heaven if the Old Testament is the word of God.. And that includes 1985Fiero. However, I do not personally believe in Heaven or Hell. Am I wrong? Possibly... but probably not. Let's face it, if God IS real.. Then he is a mean fat kid, with a magnifing glass over an ant hill. In which case we are all screwed anyway. Which really fits in with the Old Testament way of thinking anyway. That God was a very mean and vengeful god. Who liked to play horrible tricks on even his most faithful.

To the former;

Isaiah 43:19 “Look, I am about to do something new. Now it begins to happen! Do you not recognize it? Yes, I will make a road in the desert and paths in the wilderness.

To the latter; if you weren't a Hebrew, it didn't matter. Those rules didn't apply to you. And tricks? You must be reading one of those "rewritten" bibles.

God told the Hebrews how they would prosper and how they would fail. The chose the route of failure. For instance, He told them to take the Promised Land by essentially destroying all before them, lest any peoples left among them would lead them astray - and that's exactly what happened.

quote (snip) Did you Boss make you work on Sunday? Guess what? You are going to Hell Exodus 20:10

Saturday. Sunday didn't come into play until Jesus' time.

quote Yes, I am an Athiest. But I am a VERY well informed Athiest. I probably know more about religions than many of you. I have spent 20 years of my life studying the world religions and their history.

I politely question this - are you truly of an open mind? Not that I will convince you, either, but the simile is a Liberal who is only "very well informed" by the NY Times, Boston Globe, Newsweek, Huffpo, CNN, PBS and the like. Just because the majority of the MSM says it's so doesn't really mean that it is.

“Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

quote Originally posted by User00013170: But what if you are actually swimming ?

You can swim and tread water for a long, long time, but not forever. You certainly have the free will to try. It is your choice.

Edited by removing some text. Nothing added:

quote Originally posted by Wichita: I decided to learn about the Bible, history and Christianity and I discovered the truth If you haven't learned or taken the time to study it and figure out this truth, then you will just go on believing what everyone else does and going with the crowd. This has been repeated in every culture and since the dawn of civilization. Until one studies the stars and planets will they know that the universe doesn't revolve around the earth or that the earth is not flat and that ancient creatures called dinosaurs roamed the earth

A study of stars. This is a video I enjoy and I like to show it at my Christmas party. There is another short selection on the DVD that shows the constellations at the time of Christ's death on the cross as seen from the Moon. I wish I had a link for that.

Anyway, I think it's cool.

Jonathan

"Conscience definition:
that faculty of the mind, or inborn sense of right and wrong, by which we judge the moral character of human conduct. It is common to all men."


I think the Pope is hoping a conscience will lead people to the right conclusions. The statement does appeal in a less common way to people, maybe helps them think about the whole deal differently. Though everyone is open to interpret it wrongly. To me what he said is politician speak.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Well, for Christians, that is true. For them: The pope doesn't get to decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. Neither do Christians. God does. And He has outlined in His Word what is necessary. Jesus is necessary. Following Jesus is necessary. Believing in Him and repenting and letting Him lead your life is necessary. You can't just be a good person and get there. It's not really him being mean by saying that. He isn't saying "my way or the highway." He's just pointing out that the pope is wrong according to the Bible. That is not mean--it's true. According to the Bible... the pope is wrong.

Great point.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-13-2013).]

"Back when the Bible was written, then edited, then rewritten, then rewritten, then re-edited, then translated from dead languages, then re-translated, then edited, then rewritten, then given to kings for them to take their favorite parts, then rewritten, then re-rewritten, then translated again, then given to the pope for him to approve, then rewritten, then edited again, the re-re-re-re-rewritten again...all based on stories that were told orally 30 to 90 years AFTER they happened.. to people who didn't know how to write... so..." -David Cross

The discussion is, in some ways premature.

Jesus said He would return. Most of the prophecies about events leading to His return, if you read them, have been documented in the history of the last 2 Centuries to have been fulfilled.

The reason that the discussion is premature is that when Jesus returns He tells us that He will take His followers from the earth. Kind of Star Wars eh?

When that happens, we will all know who is in heaven and who isn't. We will all know if the Christians were right or wrong.

In the meanwhile, we are all free to believe what we want, including the Bible, and to do what we want, (within the laws of the land.)

We are also free to express our opinions about God, Jesus and whoever else.

Good discussion, respect to all.

Arn

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: "Back when the Bible was written, then edited, then rewritten, then rewritten, then re-edited, then translated from dead languages, then re-translated, then edited, then rewritten, then given to kings for them to take their favorite parts, then rewritten, then re-rewritten, then translated again, then given to the pope for him to approve, then rewritten, then edited again, the re-re-re-re-rewritten again...all based on stories that were told orally 30 to 90 years AFTER they happened.. to people who didn't know how to write... so..." -David Cross

It would take an act of God for a book to go through that and it's message remain in tact.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: It would take an act of God for a book to go through that and it's message remain in tact.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: It would take an act of God for a book to go through that and it's message remain in tact.

But is it the true original message? Did the 1st "human" who read the original copy of the bible, understand the message and repeat it correctly? Did the 100's of "editors & rewriters" understand and translate the message correctly from all those who had already done it before them? Did any of them change the message to fit their agenda or to deal with whatever was going on in their time? What did they leave out? What did they add? ect..

Did the original true message really survive all that? Nobody could honestly know for sure, not even the pope himself. Too much time, too many rewrites and edits, too many personal ideas, messages, agendas, ect added and taken away over the years..

In my opinion, by putting your faith in the bible, your putting your faith in man, not God.. Your putting your faith in all the people who edited, and changed the "message" for whatever reasons over the centuries to, not only understand and translate it correctly, but to not change it too fit their own needs and agendas, or the needs/agendas of those in power of the time.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: But is it the true original message? Did the 1st "human" who read the original copy of the bible, understand the message and repeat it correctly? Did the 100's of "editors & rewriters" understand and translate the message correctly from all those who had already done it before them? Did any of them change the message to fit their agenda or to deal with whatever was going on in their time? What did they leave out? What did they add? ect.. Did the original true message really survive all that? Nobody could honestly know for sure, not even the pope himself. Too much time, too many rewrites and edits, too many personal ideas, messages, agendas, ect added and taken away over the years.. In my opinion, by putting your faith in the bible, your putting your faith in man, not God.. Your putting your faith in all the people who edited, and changed the "message" for whatever reasons over the centuries to, not only understand and translate it correctly, but to not change it too fit their own needs and agendas, or the needs/agendas of those in power of the time.

The problem is when people already have a presumption that the bible is true and the word of god. It then becomes circular reasoning.

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: The problem is when people already have a presumption that the bible is true and the word of god. It then becomes circular reasoning.

What I find amusing is that the most simplistic definition of God
is a being with all power, knowledge and authority.Yet some
Christians hold a limited image of God in their heart and Others
who claim God does not exist, recognizes the fact that a
Government has more power, knowledge and authority than they do.

God - to what degree and by who's definition.
Advances in Science and Reading Comprehension (historical evidence) are proving neither
wrong and IMHO are confirming both.

[This message has been edited by jmclemore (edited 09-13-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: But ...

You're missing the forest for the trees. The number of editors is irrelevant. If God is real, the number of people who've tried to alter the Bible would not be able to damage the message. If God isn't real, there was no message to damage in the first place.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-13-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You're missing the forest for the trees. The number of editors is irrelevant. If God is real, the number of people who've tried to alter the Bible would not be able to damage the message. If God isn't real, there was no message to damage in the first place.

Ah the typical easy religious answer that makes little sense.. "God won't let it happen".. Ah, well that explains it all then.. C'mon Formula88, you normally come up with better stuff than this.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Ah the typical easy religious answer that makes little sense.. "God won't let it happen".. Ah, well that explains it all then.. C'mon Formula88, you normally come up. with better stuff than this.

Your response is predictable.
I understand what he is saying, it is in English.
What part do you not understand?

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Ah the typical easy religious answer that makes little sense.. "God won't let it happen".. Ah, well that explains it all then.. C'mon Formula88, you normally come up with better stuff than this.

This isn't about me coming up with a witty retort. If you're asking questions about religion, then the nature of the religion is going to be part of the answer.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-14-2013).]

quote Originally posted by theBDub: He's just pointing out that the pope is wrong according to the Bible. That is not mean--it's true. According to the Bible... the pope is wrong.

I find it ironic that the Pope, the supposed "liaison to God", is disobeying the Bible himself. But he isn't the first to do so, and probably won't be the last. Considering how many Popes are going to Hell for their sins, it makes one wonder if they should be obeyed or respected at all.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I find it ironic that the Pope, the supposed "liaison to God", is disobeying the Bible himself. But he isn't the first to do so, and probably won't be the last. Considering how many Popes are going to Hell for their sins, it makes one wonder if they should be obeyed or respected at all.

Doesn't he have the authority to interpret gods word and pass it down to the flock? ( not being a smart ass here, its a serious question as that was my understanding: 'god on earth' more or less.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 09-14-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I find it ironic that the Pope, the supposed "liaison to God", is disobeying the Bible himself. But he isn't the first to do so, and probably won't be the last. Considering how many Popes are going to Hell for their sins, it makes one wonder if they should be obeyed or respected at all.

Well, I don't believe in any of it anymore anyway, but even when I did I would say "no."

If you believe in it, God provided a way to communicate to Him through His Son. You don't need a pope. The pope has no authority. No human is any more or less holy than another--as all are sinners. So yeah, no, they shouldn't be obeyed for sure. Respected? That's an individual basis; the title does nothing for me, personally.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Doesn't he have the authority to interpret gods word and pass it down to the flock?

That's a good question. Does he? And if so, then on whose authority?

I did some research on this. And it seems to suggest that the Pope's authority was acquired through political maneuvering.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: That's a good question. Does he? And if so, then on whose authority? I did some research on this. And it seems to suggest that the Pope's authority was acquired through political maneuvering.

Just as Jesus becoming a god.

Just how many religions are there out there today?

OK, now what one is right?

They all are different, yet the believers of each say theirs is the only right version of Gods teaching, sayings, words.

I say they are all wrong, they don't have a clue what they are talking about, my opinion, really don't care. you want to believe in something fine, just don't expect me to believe in it because you Think it is the only right one.

“There are only two things to worry about, either you are healthy or you are sick.
If you are healthy, then there is nothing to worry about.
But if you are sick there are only two things to worry about, either you will get well or you will die.
If you get well, then there is nothing to worry about.
But if you die there are only two things to worry about, either you will go to heaven or to hell.
If you go to heaven, then there is nothing to worry about.
And if you to go hell, you'll be so darn busy shaking hands with your friends you won't have time to worry!”



Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: OK, now what one is right?

Well, mine of course.

Consider this......

Perhaps the path to eternity just requires faith in your chosen religion, and they are all 'right'.

Maybe God makes it easy for his followers to be rewarded, and the rest of it is just the 'noise' that human beings create around everything.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Consider this...... Perhaps the path to eternity just requires faith in your chosen religion, and they are all 'right'. Maybe God makes it easy for his followers to be rewarded, and the rest of it is just the 'noise' that human beings create around everything.

Do you need God in the first place?

Also, what is the appeal of living for eternity? At what form or age do you either choose or the age you die in in your eternity life?

Being a good person, following the golden rule, strive to serve others and do the right things...I get that.

Living for eternity in a cloud city worshiping some god appears to be Hell to me.

I just want to live once and my time on Earth just like every living creatures does.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 09-15-2013).]

I think all religion has its beginnings is mans fear of the unknown and dying. we don't know something so we just make it up as we go along, examples of mans eternally wrongness.

the earth is flat.
the earth is the center of the universe.
if man were meant to fly he would have wings.
eternal life after death.
that last one I love, just how can you have eternal life after you die? you are dead,
who wants to live forever anyway?

sounds pretty boring to me, to live forever in the clouds, WTF come on folks, talk about boring you to death, I for one don't want to live forever, do you really want to?

and if you do just how do you live out those eternal years? the way we died? sick as hell and bed ridden, full of pain and the damaged body we had when we died. or do we come back, as say another person, see I think it is mans fear that created the eternal life thing, you will get your whatever in the life after death. BS you die, they plant you in the ground and you are worm food.

hey I have no problem with anyone believing anything they want to believe, just don't try to make me believe it because I ain't buying it.

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

if the was no original sin [eve apple snake]
there is no need to be saved from that original sin

that is the core reason why religion attacks true history
they can't have evolution conflict with creation
to bad for believers that evolution is fact
and original sin is a story

quote Originally posted by ray b: if the was no original sin [eve apple snake] there is no need to be saved from that original sin that is the core reason why religion attacks true history they can't have evolution conflict with creation to bad for believers that evolution is fact and original sin is a story

Not all Christian sects believe in the concept of original sin. Sects like the American Evangelicals and Calvinist believe that everyone is born with sin and therefore inherited original sin. Most sects believe you are born sin free.

But the concept of original sin wasn't even derived into Christianity until after the 2nd century by interpretation of the New Testament rather than story of Adam and Eve. So the concept of original sin is not wide spread in the Christian world with the exception of some few sects.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Consider this...... Perhaps the path to eternity just requires faith in your chosen religion, and they are all 'right'. Maybe God makes it easy for his followers to be rewarded, and the rest of it is just the 'noise' that human beings create around everything.

Thank you. I would tend to agree.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Do you need God in the first place? Also, what is the appeal of living for eternity? At what form or age do you either choose or the age you die in in your eternity life?

Apparently, many people do need a 'god'.

In theory, you have no age in this mythical eternal place of residence and exist as 'energy'. But, you also don't get to be with your pets.. so ill pass even if it does exist.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Apparently, many people do need a 'god'. In theory, you have no age in this mythical eternal place of residence and exist as 'energy'. But, you also don't get to be with your pets.. so ill pass even if it does exist.

No phone, no pool, no pets / I ain't got no cigarettes..

Think I'll pass on it myself.. not that I have any current shot at getting into any religion's concept of Valhalla, anyway..

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: No phone, no pool, no pets / I ain't got no cigarettes.. Think I'll pass on it myself.. not that I have any current shot at getting into any religion's concept of Valhalla, anyway..

I was flat out told 'animals have no soul so they are not eligible'.. Like that guy on Twilight Zone where dogs were not allowed into hell.. "well, no thanks, ill just keep on walking"

I always wondered about the 'happiness' aspect too. Some people's existence is mutually exclusive for happiness. How does that get sorted out? Also makes me think of when Spock's brother offered Kirk to rid himself of his "pain". His "pain" was part of what makes him who he is, and passes. I agree, remove that then who are you? The whole concept doesn't seem well thought out. *shrug*

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 09-15-2013).]

This post was deleted by god or the universe, you decide.

[This message has been edited by xquaid (edited 09-20-2013).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Apparently, many people do need a 'god'. In theory, you have no age in this mythical eternal place of residence and exist as 'energy'. But, you also don't get to be with your pets.. so ill pass even if it does exist.

No phone, no pool, no pets / I ain't got no cigarettes..

Think I'll pass on it myself.. not that I have any current shot at getting into any religion's concept of Valhalla, anyway..