Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.
“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”
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In July, Francis signaled a more progressive attitude on sexuality, asking: “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”
If one goes to God with a contrite heart, they are acknowledging the existance of God and expressing a belief in His forgiveness; therefore they are no longer athiests. I think the title is a bit misleading.
And there are tons of Catholics in Heaven, no one Church has a lock on the Pearly Gates.........
But ya know... That's actually the way the bible is written, and that the vast majority of monotheistic religions work. "I am right. You are wrong."
John 14:6 says: "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life. None come to the father, but by me."
If he really is a true believer in the bible, he is correct. There really is only one way to the Christian Heaven, and Pope Fancis has it wrong this time.
[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-12-2013).]
Originally posted by olejoedad: I think the title is a bit misleading.
This.
The Bible is clear that, although Jesus, the Messiah (The Way, the Truth and the Life, as described), came for the Jewish people, of which He (as God) had chosen and had been born into this world as, their rejection of Him allowed for people of all (or no) faiths to come to Him. While it's true that, should an Atheist come to God for forgiveness, then he is, technically, not an Atheist any longer, he does not need to start out as a Catholic, a Jew, a Protestant or anything else to be forgiven and justified. Therefore, the Pope's word are not heretical.
In faith alone by Grace alone in Christ alone.
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05:13 PM
jmclemore Member
Posts: 2395 From: Wichita Ks USA Registered: Dec 2007
If one goes to God with a contrite heart, they are acknowledging the existance of God and expressing a belief in His forgiveness; therefore they are no longer athiests. I think the title is a bit misleading.
And there are tons of Catholics in Heaven, no one Church has a lock on the Pearly Gates.........
The title is as the article was titled.... yes most headlines are misleading because it would get ignored otherwise.....
I happen to agree with what he said. I (as a Christian) believe more people will reject the offer to enter heaven than those who will be rejected by God. I can think of no greater test to a mans faith than seeing his God welcome people whom he rejected because of his own faith. The only reason I can imagine God would find unforgivable would be someone who was given authority and used it to condemn those who were seeking God.
It's better to have lived a compassionate atheistic life and accept God at the gate than being a Christian who doesn't recognize God when he sees him.....
It's better to have lived a compassionate atheistic life and accept God at the gate than being a Christian who doesn't recognize God when he sees him.....
Hebrews 9:27: And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment - NET
People don't get to accept at the "Pearly Gates." They have to do it in this life.
And a Christian is someone who has recognized God and accepted His gift of Salvation. He may not act like it at times (I know that I have had them), but God works on each of us as a potter molds clay.
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06:32 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Don't worry, if there really is a god and heaven, then there must be a hell right. and if there is a hell then my dear old dad is already there and has Ice cold beer waiting for us, so why worry.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 09-12-2013).]
For them: The pope doesn't get to decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. Neither do Christians. God does. And He has outlined in His Word what is necessary. Jesus is necessary. Following Jesus is necessary. Believing in Him and repenting and letting Him lead your life is necessary.
You can't just be a good person and get there.
It's not really him being mean by saying that. He isn't saying "my way or the highway." He's just pointing out that the pope is wrong according to the Bible. That is not mean--it's true. According to the Bible... the pope is wrong.
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06:55 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20696 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
I just don't believe in any of it. Pearly gates, bearded robe ghost or whatever.
Catholicism is much older as a Christian sect than American Evangelic Christian sect, but somehow the arrogance of the American Christian (mind you have never read the entire Bible), takes claim in our cultural as the correct version. Hell, maybe Latter Day Saints is the correct version, they are a bit newer than American Evangelical Christians.
As Mark Twain said, "You go to Heaven for the scenery, you go to Hell for the company."
I guess that means I choose Hell, because I don't believe in the Jesus God. So plug me back into the Matrix, where I can enjoy a good steak and be a playboy.
It's what God has planned for me. Lucifer is my angel.
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06:56 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
As Mark Twain said, "You go to Heaven for the scenery, you go to Hell for the company."
I guess that means I choose Hell, because I don't believe in the Jesus God. So plug me back into the Matrix, where I can enjoy a good steak and be a playboy.
It's what God has planned for me. Lucifer is my angel.
if you get there before me, tell dad I said hi, he'll be the one tending the keg.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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06:59 PM
jmclemore Member
Posts: 2395 From: Wichita Ks USA Registered: Dec 2007
Hebrews 9:27: And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment - NET
People don't get to accept at the "Pearly Gates." They have to do it in this life.
And a Christian is someone who has recognized God and accepted His gift of Salvation. He may not act like it at times (I know that I have had them), but God works on each of us as a potter molds clay.
I only have a few problems with that. 1. I agree with the concept of Accepting Christ and his gift of salvation but there is far more to than that. It's what you do with the gift after you received it.
2. Some how I don't think it's going to fly if we tell God that we Accepted his son and if that ain't good enough it's his fault for a poor molding job. The Gift of Christ was the preparation of your Heart Mind and Soul to accept God.
3. Upon accepting Jesus Christ, It is understood that you are not operating under your own authority any longer. This is the Protection and Persecution that come with accepting Christ as Your Savior. If you say you are coming in the name of the Lord, you best be doing the Lord's work and not your own.
I think the most powerful statement I have ever heard is "If you were put on trial for being a Christian would there be enough evidence to Convict you?"
I would extend that to the rest of society. "If you were put on trial for being a Christian (and you were not) would there be enough evidence to exonerate you?"
Not to diminish the potters mold analogy, Faith is a Personal relationship with God. we can not accept the Lord's offering and reserve the right to complain if another man receives more than we think he should have.
I just don't believe in any of it. Pearly gates, bearded robe ghost or whatever.
Catholicism is much older as a Christian sect than American Evangelic Christian sect, but somehow the arrogance of the American Christian (mind you have never read the entire Bible), takes claim in our cultural as the correct version. Hell, maybe Latter Day Saints is the correct version, they are a bit newer than American Evangelical Christians.
As Mark Twain said, "You go to Heaven for the scenery, you go to Hell for the company."
I guess that means I choose Hell, because I don't believe in the Jesus God. So plug me back into the Matrix, where I can enjoy a good steak and be a playboy.
It's what God has planned for me. Lucifer is my angel.
Druids are even older, and i don't think they were all that arrogant.
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07:45 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20696 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Druids are even older, and i don't think they were all that arrogant.
They did get people to move 6-ton rocks from hundreds of miles a way and erect it in a circle. They must have promised those poor laborers ever lasting life or something.
They did get people to move 6-ton rocks from hundreds of miles a way and erect it in a circle. They must have promised those poor laborers ever lasting life or something.
Or they had used alien technology.
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08:04 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
I'll try to address your concerns over a post I finished off quickly before I had to drive my boy to work.
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1. I agree with the concept of Accepting Christ and his gift of salvation but there is far more to than that. It's what you do with the gift after you received it.
If I read your sentence correctly (It can be parsed a couple of different ways), then no. Christ's atonement on the Cross was sufficient for the salvation of the entire world. If everyone who ever lived, lives now and is to live accepted Him, they would all be saved. We know that isn't the case (see Wichita ), but it rings true. Works are a manifestation of our salvation, not a requirement of it. My statement had to do with our failings as humans. We don't become perfected beings when we are saved (though that is commuted to us immediately), but we do become works in progress. If a person is not discipled properly, then (s)he can backslide. Often, God uses that experience for that person later in life. (S)he is yet still saved. I will not outline the things that I've gone through (though not nearly what others have) when I was a young Christian, and I use that experience in my current walk.
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2. Some how I don't think it's going to fly if we tell God that we Accepted his son and if that ain't good enough it's his fault for a poor molding job. The Gift of Christ was the preparation of your Heart Mind and Soul to accept God.
No. The Gift of Christ is the All in All. Otherwise He lied when He said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. None come to the Father but by Me." and "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned." Faith in His finished work is the requirement for Salvation.
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3. Upon accepting Jesus Christ, It is understood that you are not operating under your own authority any longer. This is the Protection and Persecution that come with accepting Christ as Your Savior. If you say you are coming in the name of the Lord, you best be doing the Lord's work and not your own.
I am in partial agreement with this statement. If we are saved, then we are Christ's ambassador to the world (2COR 5:20). Just as an ambassador of a country represents that country's leadership, we represent the King of the Universe, and so we ought behave as such. It's no wonder that Wichita and rayb pounce on us when we don't, and they have justification, as well. The onus is on us to act as our King would have us. Not just when "we come in the Name of the Lord," but always.
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I think the most powerful statement I have ever heard is "If you were put on trial for being a Christian would there be enough evidence to Convict you?"
I would extend that to the rest of society. "If you were put on trial for being a Christian (and you were not) would there be enough evidence to exonerate you?"
Not to diminish the potters mold analogy, Faith is a Personal relationship with God. we can not accept the Lord's offering and reserve the right to complain if another man receives more than we think he should have.
Not being a Christian does not exclude anyone from doing good works.
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Is there anyone among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you then, although you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets.
I don't begrudge a person a greater gift than I have. I am saved by Grace, and it will be sufficient for me to be with Him in eternity.* Plus, He's given me a beautiful wife (20 years yesterday) and four great kids. So I could have more money and a working Fiero - that will make me happy temporarily, but will not bring me the joy that bringing each of them to Christ has, and leading them to be lights in this world. My oldest is heading to College next year (whichever one gives him the best scholarship....) and is seriously considering the ministry. I am content with the gifts I have been given, and hope that I can use them to His glory - none more so than if my boy pastors a church of his own. I know that his flock will be well fed, and he has barely taken the first step. And who knows what the other three will come to?
*Although, I'd like a half decent singing voice in Eternity....
EDIT: A little emphasis.
[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 09-12-2013).]
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08:10 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41181 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I received a PM from one of the other folks, asking what my beef with 1985 was. It's simply the attitude that he puts forth. I consider myself to be a Christian. I describe myself as a "recovering Catholic". Having said that, I don't think that the Catholics are any less likely to go to heaven than any other variety of Christian, as long as they are true to their beliefs. I think there are all sorts of different means to the same end.
The God that I was taught about is a God of love. 1985 comes across as believing otherwise, and if anybody disagrees with him, he's wrong. (Of course, I recognize that there's much more to it than that, but he comes across as arrogant and hateful, and it would seem to give people such as yourself justification. Not that you need any.)
Anyway... I wish you well. I wish 1985 well, too. But I also wish that the both of you would lighten up.
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09:08 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
POPE Francis has allowed atheists to use their brains independently of God.
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Francis became the first Pope since the founding of the Catholic Church to grant non-believers some limited control over their own thoughts.
In a letter to an Italian newspaper, the Pontiff said that atheists could now decide for themselves what was right and wrong using something called a ‘conscience’.
But he added: “Don’t go crazy with it, because we all know what you’re like.”
Tom Logan, an atheist from Stevenage, said: “Thanks Pope, that’s really nice of you.
“I have been struggling with whether or not to use my conscience in everyday life.
“I do tend to use it most days, but I don’t really trust it because it didn’t come from heaven.”
Logan added: “I promise I won’t go on a massive killing spree.”
Helen Archer, a non-believer since 1997, said: “It’s good to know that thinking independently is something to which I can ‘opt-in’.
“I plan to use it mostly at the weekends and for watching television.”
Theologian Professor Julian Cook, added: “The last Pope wouldn’t have let you think for yourselves in a million years.
“You’re very lucky, you know.”
It's satire if you didn't notice.
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10:21 PM
xquaid Member
Posts: 958 From: Westerville, Ohio, USA Registered: Dec 2007
I just don't believe in any of it. Pearly gates, bearded robe ghost or whatever.
Catholicism is much older as a Christian sect than American Evangelic Christian sect, but somehow the arrogance of the American Christian (mind you have never read the entire Bible), takes claim in our cultural as the correct version. Hell, maybe Latter Day Saints is the correct version, they are a bit newer than American Evangelical Christians.
As Mark Twain said, "You go to Heaven for the scenery, you go to Hell for the company."
I guess that means I choose Hell, because I don't believe in the Jesus God. So plug me back into the Matrix, where I can enjoy a good steak and be a playboy.
It's what God has planned for me. Lucifer is my angel.
Seriously, you come across far more peaceful and less hateful than you did even a year ago. Even considering myself an atheist now, it is very refreshing to see someone do that. I don't believe it was unintentional.
Thank you.
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10:34 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Seriously, you come across far more peaceful and less hateful than you did even a year ago. Even considering myself an atheist now, it is very refreshing to see someone do that. I don't believe it was unintentional.
Thank you.
His vernacular regarding religion is always amusing. 'Bearded robe ghost.'
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10:40 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
It's what God has planned for me. Lucifer is my angel.
You have free will to think that, but I believe that is misguided. If you're drowning in a lake, unable to swim and someone offers to help you if you take their hand, you are free to not accept their help. That doesn't mean they planned for you to drown. The choice is always yours.
Loving someone has no meaning if they have no choice but to love you. It's only when they have the free will not to, but choose to, that gives it meaning.
You have free will to think that, but I believe that is misguided. If you're drowning in a lake, unable to swim and someone offers to help you if you take their hand, you are free to not accept their help. That doesn't mean they planned for you to drown. The choice is always yours.
Loving someone has no meaning if they have no choice but to love you. It's only when they have the free will not to, but choose to, that gives it meaning.
It is a choice, but it isn't as simple as choice A or B as it is in the the rest of life.
You can drown, accept the help or just learn how to swim, which means you need no help and you won't drown
I decided to learn about the Bible, history and Christianity and I discovered the truth and now have learned that I don't need God. I can swim on my own.
It does take a lot of time and effort to understand that religion and the Jesus God was made up. If you haven't learned or taken the time to study it and figure out this truth, then you will just go on believing what everyone else does and going with the crowd. This has been repeated in every culture and since the dawn of civilization. Until one studies the stars and planets will they know that the universe doesn't revolve around the earth or that the earth is not flat and that ancient creatures called dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago, or that evolution really happens.
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11:36 PM
Sep 13th, 2013
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
It is a choice, but it isn't as simple as choice A or B as it is in the the rest of life.
You can drown, accept the help or just learn how to swim, which means you need no help and you won't drown
I decided to learn about the Bible, history and Christianity and I discovered the truth and now have learned that I don't need God. I can swim on my own.
Maybe in a warm lake, but in 40F ocean water, even if you swim, you're only good for a minute or two until all the heat is sucked out of your body. Unless you fell off the cruise liner in a neoprene wetsuit, I guess.... In any case, the Heaven or Hell decision is A or B. Black or White. And we make the choice every day. Every second. You just keep swimming until the time it is that you swim no more.
And I have read the Bible, cover to cover, more than once. Even once in chronological order. And I know a lot of people who've read it a lot more than I have.
I also know that we will have to agree to disagree. Maybe someday, my $0.02 will be worth more to someone than its face value. Maybe, even to you.
