quote Originally posted by Wichita: God is simple.... Oh I mean... God is so complex that he didn't give enough verses in the Bible to explain himself. The Bible can't be explained to a 5-year old, because you need to be more mature to understand it? PEOPLE COULDN'T EVEN READ IT nor HAD ACCESS TO IT. So how are they able to believe? Your Lord Jesus Christ then decided that he would visit a man name Joseph Smith You said that you want to know more about Jesus? That the Bible isn't enough? Then look outside the canonized Bible. (You do know when you die... you don't automatically go to heaven right away, right? You do know that? You are in purgatory

"God is simple.... Oh I mean... God is so complex that he didn't give enough verses in the Bible to explain himself."


How to first get to be right with God via salvation in the Bible is so simple a 5 year old can understand it. But then to go on from there, the know God fully is complex and requires a lot of verses.

This is hardly a strange concept for ANY relationship. You get to know the CRUX of someone in the beginning and can get a good idea from the start if you want to be involved with them. But as you spend more time with them over the years, you find out more and more things about them.

That is basic relationship and hardly a unique concept. Since it is such a fundamental concept, it makes it seem your attempt to portray it as you did, then YOU are the one trying to "explain something away."


"PEOPLE COULDN'T EVEN READ IT nor HAD ACCESS TO IT. So how are they able to believe?" The same way people do TODAY. YOU said that people don't read it even today. The difference now is that they HAVE ACCESS, but most don't. So PEOPLE go out and TELL the message verbally. Just like Jesus and the disciples did.


"...Your Lord Jesus Christ decided..." How do you KNOW that HE decided it was ok? Do you have PROOF? "Well.....because people SAID they did it IN HIS NAME". OK. Here is another court case. People SAID they did it commissioned by Jesus. On the other hand, a reading of the Bible that Jesus claims He is the author of would show that He would never commission ANYone to do those things. Now people have to decide which evidence to go by.


I was trying to think of an analogy. There are large corporations that at times, have people within the business do terrible things to customers, investors. SOMETIMES it is because the HEAD of the corporation has created an environment for those kinds of situations to happen. Other times, the HEAD of the corporation would NEVER condone those things, but people did it in the name of the corporation anyway for their own personal gain. That isn't some unique, weird concept. And then people have to decide if it was an institutionally supported and condoned thing or not.


"...Your Lord Jesus Christ then decided that he would visit a man name Joseph Smith..." I haven't looked into it in detail, but Joseph Smith, as I understand it, says he found or was given some more WRITINGS to add to SCRIPTURE. Another court case. The Bible that Jesus claims to have authored (via 40 human authors) says at the very end that no one can add or subtract anything from the Bible. So people can accept the testimony of Joseph Smith, or they can accept the Bible.

"You said that you want to know more about Jesus? That the Bible isn't enough?" Not really. I am completely satisfied with what I know. I am just confident that when I get to Heaven, I will understand even MORE things about Him than scripture contains. I can look outside the canonized Bible. And then I have to do with those writings, the same scrutiny I placed the Bible under.

"...You are in purgatory..." Not in the Bible in name or in concept.

"...Since Jesus evolves and changes his mind so many times since his death..." You claim that since people that call themselves Christians "change their mind", then it is because JESUS changes His mind. The Bible that Jesus claims to be the author of would say He doesn't do that. Another court judgement. Believe the testimony of people or believe the Bible.
So these are all good things to talk about, and there are reasonable explanations and answers for them. Again, I don't care which evidence a person weighs and finds most compelling.

[This message has been edited by frontal lobe (edited 01-28-2012).]

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: . So PEOPLE go out and TELL the message verbally. Just like Jesus and the disciples did.

Ohhh.... You forgot to leave out that hundreds of millions and now billions are left out of even HEARING the VERBAL message.

So the Bible doesn't count. Your Lord Jesus Christ therefore relies on verbal preaching. That pesky Bible is just too much for the average person. The Bible is reserved for the elites. SO saith you, and you are the true believer of Jesus, so I'm relying on you to tell the truth about what Jesus wanted.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: "...Your Lord Jesus Christ decided..." How do you KNOW that HE decided it was ok? Do you have PROOF? "Well.....because people SAID they did it IN HIS NAME". OK. Here is another court case. People SAID they did it commissioned by Jesus. On the other hand, a reading of the Bible that Jesus claims He is the author of would show that He would never commission ANYone to do those things. Now people have to decide which evidence to go by.

YEP! I know Jesus decided as much as the Council of Nicea knew that Jesus decided on putting to together a Bible. So since they can make that claim, I can to. In fact, Jesus Christ is telling me right now to tell this to you, that is my proof to you. Jesus talks to me.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: "...Your Lord Jesus Christ then decided that he would visit a man name Joseph Smith..." I haven't looked into it in detail, but Joseph Smith, as I understand it, says he found or was given some more WRITINGS to add to SCRIPTURE. Another court case. The Bible that Jesus claims to have authored (via 40 human authors) says at the very end that no one can add or subtract anything from the Bible. So people can accept the testimony of Joseph Smith, or they can accept the Bible.

Hmm... So Jesus used 40-authors for his story? He couldn't do it himself. So why not exercise the possibility that Joseph Smith was told by your Lord Jesus Christ to add additional works. Joseph Smith and MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of other people agree with that to. They believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God as much as you, but you condemn them in Hell, because they have a little different view of Jesus than you do. Wow!

Actually your Holy Bible makes NO SUCH CLAIM that additional books cannot be added. What many Christians get mixed up is in that the apocalyptic Book of Revelation it says that no one shall add or take away from the Prophecies of this book in relations to Revelations. Since the canonized Bible under the Council of Nicea added and subtracted gospels, prophecy and other works of Christians and stories of Jesus on several occasions (300+ years after Jesus), Your Lord Jesus Christ has actually gave everybody carte blanche to do what they please to their Version of their own Bible. So the Mormons have every claim to do what they want as the American Evangelical Christians want and still be within the sphere of a person who gets to enter into heaven. It isn't reserved for the Evangelicals.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I get to Heaven, I will understand even MORE things about Him than scripture contains.

It's all nice and pretty in all. Make sure that you high five an angel. You know, those people with wings (not in the Bible, but every Christian believes). Just remember that even the scriptures from the gospel of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John couldn't even decide what was the correct version of Jesus and his history. Paul never even mentioned that Jesus was born of a virgin and he was the most prolific preacher of Jesus in the New Testament. I wonder why he would leave that out.

Well, when you get into Heaven, be sure to let me know. I would really like to see a photo of streets of gold, and a huge giant human sitting on a jewel studded thrown and all you do is sit there awing at him forever. If you can take a pee break or something, give me a shout.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: "...You are in purgatory..." Not in the Bible in name or in concept.

Either is Rapture, but Christians still believe it.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: You claim that since people that call themselves Christians "change their mind", then it is because JESUS changes His mind.

WOW! So you admit that Jesus changes people's minds. It's strange that not only does Jesus change people's minds but by doing so changes completely the fundamental religion of Christianity. That is to say that I'm right that Jesus considers something once "ok", but later on decides by changing peoples mind that "it isn't ok", we have a "new ok now." Since these so called, JESUS CHANGES MINDS people have change things quite a bit, it is reasonable to state that Jesus changes his mind through out time. In conclusion that Jesus is an emotional and flawed character who cannot make up his own mind about things.

You will wait for his return, but I'll guarantee it, from the depths of my full communication to Jesus that he told me that you will die before he will return to earth. You were just born in the wrong time. Sorry!

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 01-28-2012).]

Lotsa hatred issues starting to show, there, Wichita, got an axe to grind with the Big Guy?

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Lotsa hatred issues starting to show, there, Wichita, got an axe to grind with the Big Guy?

No, he's actually spent some time reading, studying and doing some critical thinking. He's well equipped and doesn't shy from the discussion.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Lotsa hatred issues starting to show, there, Wichita, got an axe to grind with the Big Guy?

Are we speaking of Santa Claus? Yeah, I found out he wasn't real. Either is flying reindeer and toy making elves.

Does that make me spew out hatred or hate Santa Claus? How can one have hatred issues for something that doesn't exist?

I have young children and I watched all these "Christmas" stories for Children during the holidays last month.

It was funny to see how many of the stories are about having faith and believing in Santa Claus. Of course the reward for believing is presents under the tree.

Christians believe in Jesus because they believe in the reward for believing. It isn't like they really "love" Jesus. It is that they want to appear to love and appear to believe, because they think that by doing so they will live forever in heaven with Streets of Gold, Chicks with pajamas with bird wings playing harps, and God beaming some love rays to all who sit at his awe. Plus you get to pick your age you will be represented in heaven and be with those who you love like family, not for sure about friends though. I haven't heard a Christian say that when they go to heaven they want to be with their friends, but I'm sure some have.

You believe in Santa Claus, that is what Christians believe in. He knows who is naughty or nice and only the nice gets presents.

You ask a young child this; What do you think about children who do not believe in Santa? Their response will be; They are bad, evil, wrong and horrible. Then you ask a young child; Why do you believe in Santa? Their response is; Because he is real, the stories about him are true, he posses magical powers and etc.

Then you asked an indoctrinated evangelical christian adult; What do you think about people who do not believe in your Jesus God? Their response will be; demon posses, bad, evil, lost souls, horrible, full of hatred, going to hell and etc. Then you ask, why they believe in the Jesus God? Their response is as it is here is; Because he is real, the stories about him are true, he posses magical powers.

Santa Claus and Jesus Christ is very much parallel in infusing into indoctrination to make people believe in the tale as true. What happens in youth is that we actually discover that Santa Claus isn't real, that are parents all along have been faking it as they were the ones putting presents under the tree, not Santa.

The problem with Christians is that they haven't yet translated Jesus isn't real, because they haven't seen or fail to understand that the Bible and the Churches have been faking it all along.

I would suspect that if parents were good enough and isolated a child enough, you could get a child to believe in Santa Claus was real throughout their entire lives.

Why Christians still believe, because there is a systematic indoctrinated system still in place, called religion and churches, that keeps reinforcing that Jesus is God and it makes a person believe that throughout their entire lives.

Me? I''ll be going to mass here in a few hours like I do every Saturday evening. It doesn't phase me a single bit that I don't believe Jesus is a God and be at this church. I see all these people (part time believers) I call them going through the rituals and thinking by doing so they have one-up on everyone else for a slot in heaven. Their presents under the tree.

Jesus is not God. Santa is not real. Your god is not real.

Frontal Lobe, you did your best.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Just sayin'

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Frontal Lobe, you did your best. Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Just sayin' Jonathan

So I'm a dog and swine. Sweet!

Matthew 7:21-23 : “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Just sayin'

I didn't name any names. It's not my place to judge. If you think you are those things, who am I to doubt you? It isn't the Christian's responsibility to "change" you or to "get you saved". That is between you and God. All we're supposed to do is to spread the good news of Jesus, aka the Gospel.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So maybe this is why nobody's opinions are changed on-line. It doesn't say faith comes from reading. This may also explain why the distribution of Bibles isn't critical for the salvation of the world.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I didn't name any names. It's not my place to judge. If you think you are those things, who am I to doubt you? It isn't the Christian's responsibility to "change" you or to "get you saved". That is between you and God. All we're supposed to do is to spread the good news of Jesus, aka the Gospel. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So maybe this is why nobody's opinions are changed on-line. It doesn't say faith comes from reading. This may also explain why the distribution of Bibles isn't critical for the salvation of the world. Jonathan

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. " (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )

You don't want me to bring up anything from the Old Testament.

But lets just say your God is commanding you to kill me because I don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God. You know it's ok, because Christian moms have drown their own children in bathtubs because Jesus told them to do it.

Funny that you said, "I'm not naming any names"... Yeah but you implied it to me... It was in your heart and brain that I was a dog and pig in your mind. I know it, because you wouldn't have quoted that passage and then say "Just Sayin'" without implying it. You have a wickedness in you. I suggest you fall down on your knees and pray for forgiveness for just an evil thought.

Either that or you can kill me as commanded by your Bible to do so. Which isn't going to happen, meaning you are another part-time Christian and not the real McCoy. You might forfeit a spot in heaven if you don't do as the lord says.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 01-28-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. " (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 ) You don't want me to bring up anything from the Old Testament.

Who is the "they" from that verse you quoted?

I disagree.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Wichita: "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. " (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 ) You don't want me to bring up anything from the Old Testament. But lets just say your God is commanding you to kill me because I don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God. You know it's ok, because Christian moms have drown their own children in bathtubs because Jesus told them to do it. Funny that you said, "I'm not naming any names"... Yeah but you implied it to me... It was in your heart and brain that I was a dog and pig in your mind. I know it, because you wouldn't have quoted that passage and then say "Just Sayin'" without implying it. You have a wickedness in you. I suggest you fall down on your knees and pray for forgiveness for just an evil thought. Either that or you can kill me as commanded by your Bible to do so. Which isn't going to happen, meaning you are another part-time Christian and not the real McCoy. You might forfeit a spot in heaven if you don't do as the lord says.

What? Santa Claus is a phony? Come on, Wichita, you can't really believe that. I see him every year at the Mall.

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I disagree. Jonathan

Then question yourself if Jesus is really god.

If you aren't willing to subscribe to God's word, then at least take a logical look at it the next time you or when you begin to read the Bible.

Wichita, you make me chuckle in a very unique way.
And no one could ever call you stupid.

quote Originally posted by TK: No, he's actually spent some time reading, studying and doing some critical thinking. He's well equipped and doesn't shy from the discussion.

It really isn't a "discussion".

If you look at the last few posts, it is a collection of snide remarks, ignoring of what I clearly said and making baseless accusations to the contrary (just ONE example. "...so the Bible doesn't count...That pesky Bible is just too much for the average person...The Bible is reserved for the elites...SO saith you"), and making unsubstantiated assertions.


You said, "...at least take a logical look at it..." I leave it to other people to decide who has actually done that in this thread, and been objective, and who has tried to twist things or actually created things not said.

You try to goad people into reacting, and then should they, you try to condemn them with the Bible.
Well, I'm not taking that bait. Other people that read it can decide on how they feel about your behavior.

I could easily give reasoned answers to your last few points, but to what end? Your posts have made it clear you REALLY don't want a DISCUSSION. The point has already been made about when judging something like this, it is a circumstantial case and it is preponderance of evidence.

FL, a 'preponderance of evidence' and 'faith' are contradictory terms.

The point of a belief in a higher being is 'faith'.

Without 'faith', everything else has very little meaning.

Sometimes, ya just gotta get outside your self .............

and that's the point.........faith.

Well, apparently, W, my six year old daughter has one up on you, because she knows what Jesus did for her.

And the first Gospels were written very soon after His death and resurrection. Luke interviewed firsthand witnesses (Presumably Mark was one of them, as many of the stories draw directly from him), as well as other sources (some say Peter, as well). He then went on to write Acts, which was a firsthand account.

And Purgatory isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Well, apparently, W, my six year old daughter has one up on you, because she knows what Jesus did for her. And the first Gospels were written very soon after His death and resurrection. Luke interviewed firsthand witnesses (Presumably Mark was one of them, as many of the stories draw directly from him), as well as other sources (some say Peter, as well). He then went on to write Acts, which was a firsthand account. And Purgatory isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

I take it that there's a distinction between "Hell" and "Purgatory"..?

According to this webpage, there are over 160 references to "Hell" in the New Testament:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm

A small point, but I don't have anything else to contribute at this juncture.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-29-2012).]

"Purgatory" is a Catholic construct, I don;t know how old, to make people feel better about themselves, or, more likely, their relatives who did not regularly attend church. It was supposed to be a "holding area," kind of like staying in a penitentiary until you have "served your time for the crime." Once served, the soul then went to Heaven. It is not a biblical concept, as Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. None come to the Father but by me."

As you pointed out, Hell is biblical.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: FL, a 'preponderance of evidence' and 'faith' are contradictory terms.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith has some substance it is founded on. It provides evidence.

It just isn't SEEN, meaning it isn't an eyewitness account.

But just because it isn't seen, doesn't mean there is no evidence.


Example:

Matthew 11:2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.


John wanted to know if he should have faith that Jesus was indeed the Messiah or not. Jesus didn't say, yes, go tell John that I say I am, and he is supposed to believe me based solely on my word.

The MIRACLES that Jesus did were supposed to be EVIDENCE to people, including John, that He wasn't just an ordinary person and that when people were placing their faith in Him, the SUBSTANCE of the case was Jesus' own testimony SAYING He was, AND the miracles He did.


John 10:36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


When the Jews were disputing His claim to be the Messiah, He didn't leave it at, "You have to have faith in me." He gave them miracles as physical evidence for them to believe in.


So, no, Jesus Himself said don't JUST have faith in my words. He provided EVIDENCE.

But again, people have to judge the evidence. The Jews looked at the evidence of His miracles, and said the evidence actually showed that He was doing them by the power provided by the Devil, and NOT by being God's son.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: FL, a 'preponderance of evidence' and 'faith' are contradictory terms. The point of a belief in a higher being is 'faith'. Without 'faith', everything else has very little meaning. Sometimes, ya just gotta get outside your self ............. and that's the point.........faith.

Faith does people no good. Belief is something you understand may be true without 100% of the evidence. Faith is having blind trust to something that is true without any evidence or when evidence is stacked up against your trust.

If your God requires faith in order to believe in him, then I cannot accept your God.

The burden of proof lies with the believer. By examining history, archeological evidence and written works, the evidence shows that Jesus was not the son of god, but that the worshiping of Jesus Jewish sect developing into a main stream religion was a circumstance of history that has played out to many people who have religions tied to them, much like Abraham of the Jews or Mohammed of the Muslims.

Since evidence shows that Jesus was merely a mortal man and not the Son of God, then in conclusion he wasn't. But worshipers cannot except that, but instead rely on the "faith" doctrine as the only vehicle left to hang on to so that their beliefs are not crushed and wasted in vain. You cannot accept the fact that you are wrong, so you are now driven to relying only on illogical blind faith.

I do find it strange that only a belief in God requires "faith", but everything else in the world does not. Christianity relies heavily on rules of conduct and teachings of morality that one must follow. But the God you worship doesn't have any. It only requires blind faith. So why does a Christian rely 99% of their lives under rules and guidelines but just your belief in the God doesn't?

Faith is hope without any substance that is tangible and measurable. Being a Christian for the most part requires you to be tangible and measurable. You have to be a good man. You have to be a moral person. You have to follow the golden rule. You cannot have hate in your heart. You must follow the ten commandments. You can't jerk off to pron.

Just as your Bible has said, you can have "faith" and worship the Lord Jesus Christ, but it means nothing if you aren't a good person to begin with. So having "faith" alone isn't enough.

And by your snide remarks on this and other threads, I will contend to say, you aren't very Christian like. You don't get a pass just on "faith" alone.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: You can't jerk off to pron.

Now that’s some

Looks as if I’m going to hell

''5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. ''

and that is why every doc and hospital has faith healers ?

wait they doNOT
and even tho JC promised his reps could and should do this in his name
the record of faith healers is what ?

no not the tv storys
but the checked double blind studys of faith healing ?
come on lobe you are in the medical profession
how many strokes have you cured by preying
how many cancers did your laying of hands cure ?

every study shows rates near chance with no effects of handlaying or preying
just random results

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools


Romans 14:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


In other words, I don't have to take responsibility for anyone's refusal to accept Jesus. It isn't my place to judge and it certainly says nothing about me being the executioner. It is between you and God. He's got this. I for one would not want to face God's judgement of my life without Jesus by my side, paying the debt for my sin.

Jonathan

[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 01-29-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools Romans 14:10-12 King James Version (KJV) 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. In other words, I don't have to take responsibility for anyone's refusal to accept Jesus. It isn't my place to judge and it certainly says nothing about me being the executioner. It is between you and God. He's got this. I for one would not want to face God's judgement of my life without Jesus by my side, paying the debt for my sin. Jonathan

Why do Christians always paraphrase Biblical Verses as if they knew what they were talking about. They always leave out so much, claiming to be Righteous. They never really understand how to read their own Bible. It's like taking a sentence out of a paragraph and trying to tag it to some other meaning.

Let me start out with Romans 1:21 - 23.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


Basically Mr. Angry Christian Boostdreamer, this message from Paul in the book of Romans is directed at those who claim that know God, worship mortal images of him (paintings, crucifixes, doves, nativity scene and etc). They claim to know god, but have wickedness in their hearts.

You are the foolish one that Paul is talking about in Romans. Calling Jesus an executioner and scaring people about God's Judgement. Yeah! You a wicked person. I can tell. As you say, you have not an ounce of care in your heart about others, just so long as you are selfishly ok. (although you aren't). Because the Bible speaks directly at posers like you and your fate is in hell.

You also might want to re-read Romans 14.

So see you in hell.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Why do Christians always paraphrase Biblical Verses as if they knew what they were talking about. They always leave out so much, claiming to be Righteous. They never really understand how to read their own Bible. It's like taking a sentence out of a paragraph and trying to tag it to some other meaning. Let me start out with Romans 1:21 - 23. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Basically Mr. Angry Christian Boostdreamer, this message from Paul in the book of Romans is directed at those who claim that know God, worship mortal images of him (paintings, crucifixes, doves, nativity scene and etc). They claim to know god, but have wickedness in their hearts. You are the foolish one that Paul is talking about in Romans.

I guess there is an irony in you giving an example of Christians paraphrasing Bible verses, leaving out much, not understanding how to read it, and accusing of taking one sentence out of a paragraph and trying to give it another meaning, and then you do that very thing with your example.


Verse 21 says "they". Who are the "they"? And then you go on to say it is they that claim to know God.

When the verses RIGHT BEFORE IT describe who the "they" are.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Paul is giving the gospel (verse 16) to UNgodly and UNrighteous men. In their minds, they hold the truth of who God is in a state of UNrighteousness. They are NON believers.

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The claim is that non believers, when looking at the world around them, will understand that there is some power that made it. And in their conscience, they knew it was God, but they didn't want to accept that.

It is THOSE people who are looking for an alternate explanation of the origin of the world, because they don't want to accept that there is a God, that then went on in their minds to formulate their own versions that they wanted.


I can understand that some passages are more difficult, and the meaning seems more ambiguous. This one isn't even the least bit difficult and in no way allows for your impression of what it says.

Once again, I didn't name any names or call you out. Where did I claim to be rightous? Where do you see anger in my posts? What did I do that was foolish (other than participating here)? How did I change the meaning? It was a different time and circumstance but pretty much the same deal. Non-believers think they are smart enough to explain away God but they are foolish to do so. I never called Jesus an executioner nor anything else other than my Savior. Who did I scare with a reference to God's judgement? You? If it scares you, that means you are smart enough to know that won't be a good day unless you have Jesus on your side. If so, no fear needed.

"As you say, you have not an ounce of care in your heart about others, just so long as you are selfishly ok. (although you aren't). Because the Bible speaks directly at posers like you and your fate is in hell." -- WOW!! All I can say about this is you must have an extraordinary imagination! You pulled this one completely out of thin air! Very creative!

I'm not angry. I'm not mad. I'm happy and I'm saved. I'm happy to tell anyone who is interested in hearing about it. I'm not trying to shut anyone down, insult anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings. If you feel victomized by any of my statements or posted scriptures, you probably are feeling some guilt or something pulling at your heart. My hope for you is for you to open your heart and accept Jesus. No ill will at all. If you choose not to, that is out of my hands and as far as I'm concerned we can still be Fiero buddies.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Why do Christians always paraphrase Biblical Verses as if they knew what they were talking about. They always leave out so much, claiming to be Righteous. They never really understand how to read their own Bible. It's like taking a sentence out of a paragraph and trying to tag it to some other meaning. Let me start out with Romans 1:21 - 23. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Basically Mr. Angry Christian Boostdreamer, this message from Paul in the book of Romans is directed at those who claim that know God, worship mortal images of him (paintings, crucifixes, doves, nativity scene and etc). They claim to know god, but have wickedness in their hearts. You are the foolish one that Paul is talking about in Romans. Calling Jesus an executioner and scaring people about God's Judgement. Yeah! You a wicked person. I can tell. As you say, you have not an ounce of care in your heart about others, just so long as you are selfishly ok. (although you aren't). Because the Bible speaks directly at posers like you and your fate is in hell. You also might want to re-read Romans 14. So see you in hell.

lobe

you know JC said squat about the bible to be written [new T]
but did promise the power to heal to his followers

re family guy tonight was on this topic [faith healing and christian science belief]

and NO there is nothing in the bible
or JC's teaching about healing thru faith
stoping or changing in any way
post the time the bible books were written or complied

but there was a claim
''by their works you will know them''
about some leaders being given the power to heal
I do find the demon casting bit odd
but the claim has no expiration time !!!!!!!!!!!!!

and by logic [dangerous to religion]
only leaders who follow god truly should have that power
and be a sign of true leaders to follow
so if they canNOT heal are they good leaders ?
I am just quoting in context
but the topic is [is there a god]
and faith healing is something your book claims

and I see no repeatable healing as proof of no god
or as the boys on tv say MYTH BUSTED

quote Originally posted by ray b: lobe you know JC said squat about the bible to be written [new T] but did promise the power to heal to his followers and NO there is nothing in the bible or JC's teaching about healing thru faith stoping or changing in any way but there was a claim ''by their works you will know them'' so if they canNOT heal are they good leaders ? but the topic is [is there a god] and faith healing is something your book claims and I see no repeatable healing as proof of no god or as the boys on tv say MYTH BUSTED

Jesus didn't say there would be more scripture written after He left, but there was. He didn't HAVE to say it was going to be written, for it therefore to be written.


There are MULTIPLE gifts that believers were given the ability to do that were for substantiation of their message until the completed Bible was written. Being able to prophecy future events; speaking in foreign languages you never learned, knew, or heard; and miraculous healing among them.

1 Corinthians as well as other places deal with these issues coming to an end.


"by their works you shall know them": those works now are whether a person who claims to be a christian lives up consistently (not perfectly) with the things a Christian is commanded to be like.


If you are going by your theology, then someone has to be able to "speak in tongues" or it is also evidence that they aren't a genuine christian. As far as I know, charismatic movement still believes that.


If you were honest, SHOULD someone cast out a demon in front of everyone live on television, you would admit that you would find an alternative explanation for it and STILL not believe in God. Same with healing.

Remember the Bible account of the rich man who died, and He wanted Lazarus to go and tell his brothers to believe and not wind up in Hell.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


"Moses and the prophets" is the WRITTEN word of God. If people aren't going to believe the written word of God, then they aren't going to believe "miracles", even to the point of a known dead person returning and trying to persuade them. Or miraculous healing. Or speaking in tongues. Or any supernatural event.

You have to admit, if an amputee was instantaneously restored in front of even a small group of people (even a group solely of non-believers), it would be very compelling. Since there is no known scientific mechanism for that, a "miracle" would be as good of an answer as any (even in the philosophical sense.)

Biological parts are never restored via "miracles." I don't know why they don't qualify. It's always something vaguely defined. Re-grow a removed kidney, limb, eye, lost brain matter, you name it - that is compelling and worth discussion.

Of course, this would be tempting wouldn't it.

quote Originally posted by TK: You have to admit, if an amputee was instantaneously restored in front of even a small group of people (even a group solely of non-believers), it would be very compelling. Of course, this would be tempting wouldn't it.

It really would. It would be very fascinating to see the conversation that went on afterward between those trying to attribute it to God, and those trying to attribute it to other explanations.

has anyone ever anywhere recorded a believer speaking in tongues
by a person with no training in that language
and got a coherent translation ?
or valid prediction ?

your book claims that should work and be a sign
but as far as I know it has never happened
most sound like incoherent babbling
with no message
or are faked

as you know the line between faith healing
and spontaneous remission is repeatability

while I class angels demons fairys elves gods santa easter bunnys
as made up nonreal creatures
producing one with the ability's claimed for them
would be interesting

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 01-30-2012).]

quote Originally posted by ray b: has anyone ever anywhere recorded a believer speaking in tongues by a person with no training in that language and got a coherent translation ? or valid prediction ? your book claims that should work and be a sign but as far as I know it has never happened most sound like incoherent babbling with no message

Not that I am aware of. To me, it sounds like incoherent babbling as well. I have heard that secular linguists have examined some people speaking in tongues, and didn't find ANY pattern that is suggestive that it was any kind of LANGUAGE.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease...


rayb, I'm just presenting what the New Testament says. I know you don't take it as God's word. But I am pointing out that the supernatural ability to speak in a language that one never studied or was exposed to WAS, BEFORE there was a completed Bible, done by some people to give them the ability to present the gospel to people, and to be ONE possible evidence that the message they were delivering had some substantiation.


It was for a limited time, and was not, as it says in 1 Corinthians, something that all Christians were going to do EVEN BACK THEN, and also that it wasn't an ongoing thing.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Verse 21 says "they". Who are the "they"? And then you go on to say it is they that claim to know God.

I asked that same question about another verse he quoted above. He never answered.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I asked that same question about another verse he quoted above. He never answered.

who he me ?

the ''they'' in ''by there works you will know them''
I think refers to leadership of the early church

and yes I think JC expected the leaders to show proof of the powers of the holy ghost
ie healing raise the dead like he did
and speak in tongues

but many think the quote about
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease...
is about JC's return not the bible new T being closed or church adopted by roman powers that be

Sometimes, it's good to be wrong.