Pose the OP in a way that makes it clear you are only interested in confirmation. That way non-believers stand out as having the sole purpose of disrupting the thread.
Seriously.
I understand the OP was not exactly "fair" in the post. However, even in other threads that started another way from the get-go eventually get here.
It ain't just non-believers. They just always end up here.
I'm a bit confused on that part of your post. Did you actually mean "People in harsh times, like prison or disease, always "find" god"? Because I'm pretty sure alot of people out there found God without having harsh times like prison or disease.
I mean to say a lot of people either find God, or gain a strong connection with him in hard times. It is a safety net. Sure there are plenty of people that are raised with it and have faith. Even if Christianity is the one true religion, what sect is the correct version? Catholicism? 7th day Adventist? the literally thousands of other sub groups? Who is right in their interpretation of the bible? Some people take it literally, and some take it loosely. In Deuteronomy it says if a woman is married and was not a virgin, she should be executed. If even the most conservative Christians took the bible 100% literally, then they would be pushing for mass executions everywhere. It would be God's will.
Bothers me that in the old testament many of these laws are in place. Thousands of them. Yet only certain ones are followed or brought out. For example homosexuality is a terrible sin in the old testament that is an "abomination." Why do people use that to slander gays? Why is that rule so much more important than killing non virgin woman? The new testament says nothing about homosexuality or any of the thousands of other rules listed in the old testament that aren't followed, such as eating muscles. Why do people just take certain laws... At the end of the day, whether people realize it or not, the bible is a powerful weapon that can be used to advance and help promote the views a person has instilled in them. One of my uncles is a pastor of a very conservative church. It's no surprise his interpretation of the bible lines up exactly with his personality and beliefs.
/Rant
[This message has been edited by rmbrown09 (edited 01-22-2012).]
The OP used a rhetorical question to lure you into an advertisement. So no, the OP wasn't exactly "on the level".
But then again, when I saw the thread title, I expected to be greeted with a train wreck. So far, this thread has actually not been as bad as I expected.
That's a good thing, right?
And yes, when it comes to questions of beliefs, the chances of changing someone's mind with a post on an internet forum are next to none. You'd have better luck beating your head against the wall, and hoping that when you start seeing stars, one of them resembles Jay Leno. So really, a "discussion" regarding whether or not God exists is basically just a bunch of people lining up to regurgitate their beliefs.
And that is exactly why I have not answered the OPs question myself. I'll let everyone else have fun regurgitating on each other.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 01-22-2012).]
Actually we do have evidence of things "just happening". What you may believe to be organization/design but it comes with extreme flaws so nothing ever is in a balance or perfect state. Randomness and chaos is apart of our being and within the universe as a whole. Quantum physics shows mathematically that "just happening" does happen.
If you believe your God to be perfect, it sure couldn't design anything perfect and it around about way, couldn't really do anything right. The so called, "all knowing, all loving" doesn't hold any truth in the observation and evidence we have about nature and the universe. It sure in the hell doesn't show it in the so called "written record of truth" in the Bible.
Even the so called "Christian/Jewish" the angry God killed mass populations of humans, banish most of his Angles (including his so called 2nd in command), created Hell and places non-believers there, just because you choose to not love him? Why does an angry God posses such love envy, and only directs that towards humans and doesn't require that his so called other creations to do the same, i.e. animals and plants? Think about that....just think!!!!! There was one time that the Christian/Jewish God actually said that killing lambs and burning them on an alter was a way to prove your love to him... God appears to not posses any benevolence at all.
God gave us free will argument...blah, blah, blah. Well, if you believe that we posses Free Will, then all the animals on the planet posses Free Will as well (by definition), but many religious people believe their God determines their fate and intervenes in their lives or the lives of others, well that isn't free will. Why does God seem to talk to some, but ignore billions of others?
That is why I have no choice but to render religious people completely indoctrinated or naive. Because what they believe is not only a fairy tail, but it is completely self-centered and selfishly absorbed ideology that makes no sense to logic and it resorts the believers to become lazy in seeking knowledge and lazy in thought, and at the same time used to justify their internal envy and jealousies and protrude them out or even act on it in under the cloak and shield of their religion.
Since I actually read the entire Bible and not just small passages from time to time. The one thing I get out of it, in what the many various descriptions of a deity is, it's nothing more than describing ourselves. Gods were created by civilization in order to use it to force order and morality within a large civilization group. An alpha wolf of the pack... and what better to use one that is invisible yet everywhere, vengeful yet merciful, punishes yet forgives, creates yet destroys. Something beyond the father of the house, the leader of the community, the governor of a providence and the king of the kingdom. Somebody that is above it all. So if the king believes in some God, the governors will too, and then the community leaders will and so it goes down the line to the family and the father/mother then will instill it on their children and they are forever indoctrinated.
The way the common religions describe their God, it appears to posses all the good and bad of humans, including error in judgement and far apart from what be perfection. An imperfect God that many of the naive and indoctrinated to be perfect. That is why I said it is describing ourselves.
If God is God, then we are that God. We (humans) are the Gods that every religion and philosopher refers to. We posses the power that the Gods are said to posses.
Have you ever looked for answers to your questions, or just written off people and sources that have ideas that relate to your questions? The name of a good source is even called gotquestions.org, they caled it that for that reason.
I mean to say a lot of people either find God, or gain a strong connection with him in hard times. It is a safety net. Sure there are plenty of people that are raised with it and have faith. Even if Christianity is the one true religion, what sect is the correct version? Catholicism? 7th day Adventist? the literally thousands of other sub groups? Who is right in their interpretation of the bible? Some people take it literally, and some take it loosely
/Rant
if there was a god there would be A RELIGION not everybody gets to makeup their own cult/version
but there is no universal religion that is clearly favored by god ie guided by the holy ghost and I think that is clear proof of NO GOD behind any cult
all religions and all sub-cults are man-made and all gods are man-made too
so I do no fear any god but deluded followers of any religion are a clear and present danger to life on earth
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09:06 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
if there was a god there would be A RELIGION not everybody gets to makeup their own cult/version
You really think people would all come to a conclusion, is this based on us being able to come to a conclusion on which motor oil is best? Or maybe which climate is best to live in? Human nature is to be selfish. If we see something and don't like it because maybe it isn't what we prefer, or doesn't seem easy enough, or other people don't agree with it. Maybe it doesn't suit how we feel or how we have been treated in life so far. Maybe we choose not to choose which in itself its really a choice. These days we can even block all other points of view other than our own. Maybe for example joining forums or blogs where everyone thinks like me or agrees with me, only watching what we TIVO, never watching news, or only watching bias news..etc.
if there was a real god behind any religion it would be crystal clear to everyone their sick would be ALWAYS BE HEALED as promised their leadership would not rape and rob and scam their members would get real guidance from god any fool could see there was a real god behind their religion with real repeated results NOT the current scams
unlike now as most clergy are frauds who do steal rape and con people and any fool with open eyes can see the works of men only behind all religions BUT NO GOD's hand in any cult subcult or belief system out there now
as eazy as a motor oil that never sludges up a motor or cokes and blocks the flow or breaks down and cause engine failures that would be the true oil to use
what is so hard to see the results matter the games plots and scams do not and I see clearly NO NONE NEVER such results in a consistent repeatable manner flowing from a true god
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12:26 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
as eazy as a motor oil that never sludges up a motor or cokes and blocks the flow or breaks down and cause engine failures that would be the true oil to use
what is so hard to see the results matter the games plots and scams do not and I see clearly NO NONE NEVER such results in a consistent repeatable manner flowing from a true god
You too have questions. Questions have answers.
how can god, why would god, why did god, if god is.... etc
Those are theological answers at best. The questions require better answers if you want the truth. I also means there may be no truthful answers.
I suppose it depends on the questions. Theological answers to theological questions the way i see it. For answers to other questions there are other sources. That is just one example that came to mind.
World English Dictionary theology 1. the systematic study of the existence and nature of the divine and its relationship to and influence upon other beings 2. a specific branch of this study, undertaken from the perspective of a particular group 3. the systematic study of Christian revelation concerning God's nature and purpose 1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-24-2012).]
I suppose it depends on the questions. Theological answers to theological questions the way i see it. For answers to other questions there are other sources. That is just one example that came to mind.
World English Dictionary theology 1. the systematic study of the existence and nature of the divine and its relationship to and influence upon other beings 2. a specific branch of this study, undertaken from the perspective of a particular group 3. the systematic study of Christian revelation concerning God's nature and purpose 1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
Sure, it looks like that fits your definition of truth. That's cool.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-24-2012).]
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04:02 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Call me indocrinated if you will, but the purpose of life on this planet is the struggle between good and evil, every thing else is ancilliary.
If not for man, there would be no evil. So if there is a god, then god must have created man in order to create evil. Thats one sick sob. And if there is a god, who or what created him?
I say no, there is no god. I know too many good people that get screwed in life and too many bad people that flurish.
The BELIEF of a god is the only thing keeping us all from killing one another, so it is a good thing that most people do believe.
as the godboys are as evil as anyone else or maybe more so
and when ever a guy starts telling me he is a true believer I put a hand on my wallet and watch for the coming scam
if there was a god there would be A RELIGION one and only one not the current every nut gets to make up their own beliefs and cults from the snake handlers to the unitarians and that is based on christians every religion has main cults and sub-cults even the jews and even the ortho-extreme-jews fight about beliefs with lots of sub-cults clearly there is no voice of god guiding anyone
and every culture tribe and sub-group would be in that one religion you really think the god of the universe can't talk to headhunters or aztec's or eskmo's and needs missionary's ? why ?
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04:53 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Even the so called "Christian/Jewish" the angry God killed mass populations of humans, banish most of his Angles (including his so called 2nd in command), created Hell and places non-believers there, just because you choose to not love him? Why does an angry God posses such love envy, and only directs that towards humans and doesn't require that his so called other creations to do the same, i.e. animals and plants? Think about that....just think!!!!! There was one time that the Christian/Jewish God actually said that killing lambs and burning them on an alter was a way to prove your love to him... God appears to not posses any benevolence at all.
I don't care whether you believe in the existence of God, nor if you believe the Bible is true.
And this isn't meant critically. But if you read the entire Bible, as you claim (and I believe you) and you could post THAT much error in just one paragraph, it makes it very hard for one to take your criticisms of believers being "non-thinking" seriously.
Had you read your Bible and understood it, you would have CLEARLY seen that loving God is no where required to not be sent to Hell. One just has to make a conscious decision to give Jesus permission to make payment for their sins. It is a legal transaction. No love is required, ordered, or demanded for that.
And the sacrificing of animals was an object lesson to teach the people the seriousness of the consequences of sin, not as a way to PROVE your love to Him. (I'm not having any discussion on the MERITS of the information. I'm just pointing out that you read the Bible and didn't even get those fundamental issues straight. And that isn't my opinion. That is just what a normal reading of the material says.)
cults are not now nor have they ever been moral that is religions big lie they claim the godboys are more moral the facts do not support their big lie
jim jones david k popes tv preachers billy grammcracker all are scammers who will cheat lie and steal tali-ban like thinking is not moral it is immoral or amoral
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05:00 PM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
If not for man, there would be no evil. So if there is a god, then god must have created man in order to create evil. Thats one sick sob. And if there is a god, who or what created him?
Methinks you need to brush up on your theology.
Evil existed long before man, the Garden of Eden/Adam and Eve/apple story highlights that and the free will choice aspect of mankind's existence.
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06:16 PM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
As you wrote that statement, I agree, you are correct, its a scam on your own soul.
Now if you add a comma after 'NO' in your statement, what you wrote takes on an entirely different meaning that I do not believe is true.
Fun with punctuation, you should try it.........
As to your statement about some famous and infamous leaders in religion, bad men exist everywhere, they use any tool they can to spread their evil, hence the old adage of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'.
why does your all powerful god need missionary 's ie men to recruit sheep
So never in your life did you have others do things WITH you that you could have done all by yourself, just because it is more FUN to do things WITH others?
Did you ever have someone do something with you not because you NEEDED them to do it, but because in letting them do some of it, it helped DEVELOP them?
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09:58 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Evil existed long before man, the Garden of Eden/Adam and Eve/apple story highlights that and the free will choice aspect of mankind's existence.
Paradise Lost by 17th-century English poet John Milton:
Milton's story has two narrative arcs: one of Satan (Lucifer) and another of Adam and Eve. It begins after Satan and the other rebel angels have been defeated and banished to Hell, or as it is also called in the poem, Tartarus. In Pandæmonium, Satan employs his rhetorical skill to organize his followers; he is aided by his lieutenants Mammon and Beelzebub. Belial and Moloch are also present. At the end of the debate, Satan volunteers himself to poison the newly-created Earth and God's new and most favored creation, Mankind. He braves the dangers of the Abyss alone in a manner reminiscent of Odysseus or Aeneas. After arduously traversing the Chaos outside Hell, he enters God's new material World, and later the Garden of Eden.
Partway through the story, the Angelic War over Heaven is recounted. Satan's rebellion follows the epic convention of large-scale warfare. The battles between the faithful angels and Satan's forces take place over three days. The final battle involves the Son of God single-handedly defeating the entire legion of angelic rebels and banishing them from Heaven. Following the purging of Heaven, God creates the World, culminating in his creation of Adam and Eve. While God gave Adam and Eve total freedom and power to rule over all creation, He gave them one explicit command: not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil on penalty of death.
The story of Adam and Eve's temptation and fall is a fundamentally different, new kind of epic: a domestic one. Adam and Eve are presented for the first time in Christian literature as having a full relationship while still without sin. They have passions and distinct personalities. Satan, disguised in the form of a serpent, successfully tempts Eve to eat from the Tree by preying on her vanity and tricking her with rhetoric. Later, Adam seeing Eve has sinned, knowingly commits the same sin. He declares to Eve that since she was made from his flesh, they are bound to one another so that if she dies, he must also die. In this manner, Milton portrays Adam as a heroic figure, but also as a deeper sinner than Eve, as he is aware that what he is doing is wrong.
After eating the fruit, Adam and Eve have lustful sex, and at first, Adam is convinced that Eve was right in thinking that eating the fruit would be beneficial. However, they soon fall asleep, having terrible nightmares, and after they awake, they experience guilt and shame for the first time. Realizing that they have committed a terrible act against God, they engage in mutual recrimination.
However, Eve's pleas to Adam reconcile them somewhat. Her encouragement enables Adam and Eve both to approach God, to "bow and sue for grace with suppliant knee", and to receive grace from God. Adam is shown a vision by the angel Michael, in which Adam witnesses everything that will happen to mankind until the Great Flood. Since Adam is very upset by this vision of humankind's future, Michael also tells him about humankind's potential redemption from original sin through Jesus Christ (whom Michael calls "King Messiah").
Adam and Eve are then cast out of Eden, and Michael says that Adam may find "a paradise within thee, happier far". Adam and Eve also now have a more distant relationship with God, who is omnipresent, but invisible (unlike the previous tangible Father in the Garden of Eden).
Characters:
Satan: Satan is the first major character introduced in the poem. Formerly the most beautiful of all angels in Heaven, he's a tragic figure best described by the now-famous quote "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven". He is introduced to Hell after he leads a failed rebellion to wrestle control of Heaven from God. Satan's desire to rebel against his creator stems from his unwillingness to be subjugated by God and his Son, falsely claiming that angels are "self-begot, self-raised", thereby denying God's authority over them as their creator.
Satan is deeply arrogant, albeit powerful and charismatic. Satan's persuasive powers are evident throughout the book; not only is he cunning and deceptive, but he also is able to rally the demons to continue in the rebellion after their agonizing defeat in the Angelic War. He argues that God rules as a tyrant and that all the angels ought to rule as gods.
Satan is comparable in many ways to the tragic heroes of classic Greek literature but, Satan's hubris far surpasses those of previous tragedies. Though at times he plays the narrative role of an anti-hero, he is still commonly understood to be the antagonist of the epic. However, the true nature of his role in the poem has been the subject of much notoriety and scholarly debate. While some scholars, like the critic and writer C.S. Lewis, interpret the poem as a genuine Christian morality tale, other critics, like William Empson, view it as a more ambiguous work, and Milton's complex characterization of Satan plays a big part in that perceived ambiguity.
Adam: Adam is the first human created by God. Considered as God's prized creation, Adam along with his wife rule over all the creatures of the world and reside in the Garden of Eden. He is more intelligent and curious than Eve. He is also stronger in his moral devotion to God than his wife. From the questions he asks the angel Raphael, it is clear that Adam has a deep, intellectual curiosity about his existence, God, Heaven and the nature of the world. He is completely infatuated with Eve, which while pure in and of itself, eventually contributes to his reasons for joining Eve in disobedience to God.
As opposed to the Biblical Adam, this version of Adam is given a glimpse of the future of mankind (this includes a synopsis of stories from The Old and New Testaments), by the angel Michael, before he has to leave Paradise.
Eve: Eve is the second human created by God, taken from one of Adam's ribs and shaped into a female form of Adam. In her innocence, she is the model of a good wife, graceful and happily submissive to Adam. Eve is extremely beautiful and thoroughly in love with Adam. She consents to Adam leading her away from her reflection when they first meet, trusting Adam’s authority in their relationship. One day, she convinces Adam that it would be good for them to split up and work different parts of the Garden. In her solitude, she is tempted by Satan to sin against God. Adam shortly follows along with her.
The Son of God: The Son of God is Jesus Christ, though he is never named explicitly, since he has not yet entered human form. The Son of God shares total union with God, and indeed is understood to be a person of the Godhead, along with the Father and the Spirit. He is the ultimate hero of the epic and infinitely powerful, singlehandedly defeating Satan and his followers when they violently rebel against God and driving them into Hell. The Son of God tells Adam & Eve of God's judgment after their sin. However, he sacrificially volunteers to eventually journey to the World, become a man himself, and redeem the Fall of Man through his own death and resurrection. In the final scene, a vision of Salvation through the Son of God is revealed to Adam by Michael. Still, the name, Jesus of Nazareth, and the details of Jesus' story are not depicted in the poem.
God the Father: God the Father is the creator of Heaven, Hell, the World, and of everyone and everything there is. He desires glory and praise from all his creation. He is an all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely good being who cannot be overthrown by even the great army of angels Satan incites against him. The poem begins with the purpose of justifying the ways of God to men, so God often converses with the Son of God concerning his plans and reveals his motives regarding his actions. The poem portrays God’s process of creation in the way that Milton believed it was done, that God created Heaven, Earth, Hell, and all the creatures that inhabit these separate planes from part of Himself, not out of nothing. Thus, according to Milton, the ultimate authority of God derives from his being the "author" of creation. Satan tries to justify his rebellion by denying this aspect of God and claiming self-creation, but he admits to himself this is not the case, and that God "deserved no such return/ From me, whom He created what I was."
Raphael: Raphael is an angel who is sent by God to warn Adam about Satan's infiltration of Eden and to warn him that Satan is going to try to curse Adam and Eve. He also has a lengthy discussion with the curious Adam regarding creation and events which transpired in Heaven.
Michael: Michael is a mighty archangel who fought for God in the Angelic War. In the first battle, he wounds Satan terribly with a powerful sword that God designed to even cut through the substance of angels. After Adam and Eve disobey God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge, God sends the angel Michael to visit Adam and Eve. His duty is to escort Adam and Eve out of Paradise. But before this happens, Michael shows Adam visions of the future which cover an outline of the Bible, from the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis, up through the story of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-24-2012).]
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10:48 PM
Jan 25th, 2012
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
That site you have pimped over and over again. It doesn't give any answers at all. For instance, I went there and search for a question; "When was Jesus born".
Here is the answer they give: "The truth is we simply don’t know the exact date of our Savior’s birth. In fact, we don’t even know for sure the year in which He was born. Scholars believe it was somewhere between 6 B.C. and 4 B.C. One thing is clear: if God felt it was important for us to know the exact date of the Savior’s birth, He certainly would have told us in His Word. The Gospel of Luke gives very specific details about the event, even down to what the baby was wearing – “swaddling clothes”—and where he slept—“in a manger” (Luke 2:12). These details are important because they speak of His nature and character, meek and lowly. But the exact date of His birth has no significance whatsoever, which may be why God chose not to mention it."
Basically if it isn't in the Bible, it isn't important.
But then we based our current calendar systems from the birth of Jesus (Anno Domini) and worshipers celebrate it on a specific day (Dec 25).
So why celebrate Christmas at all?
Got questions said this: "there is no legitimate scriptural reason not to celebrate Christmas".
Ok. So the Bible told them they couldn't, so you can.
If it isn't in the Bible, it isn't important. But if it isn't in the Bible, you can do whatever you like?
Got Questions Site isn't nothing more than a person's opinion. Under the premise that the Bible is the true word for word of God for a strict opinionated view of that person's Christianity beliefs. I notice that they call Mormons and Jehovah Witness "False Religions" and "Not Christian". Well, followers of that faith would defer with that.
If I go off the premise that the Bible is not the word of God, then I cannot use the Bible as some strict means for myself seeking answers to the existence of God. I seek beyond the Bible. I didn't find it in the Bible and so far I'm not seeing anything beyond the Bible.
That is why nobody is giving any weight to Got Questions site other than you.
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09:39 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
I went there and search for a question; "When was Jesus born".
You're missing the point - its not "when He was born" that is important.
The important part is that He was born.
Astromomers looked into the very question you asked. They were able to determine that there was a comet visible in the summer around the time that historians place the year of Christ's birth.
A better question might be, "Why was Jesus born?".
As to the exact date and time of His birth? No more important to history than the exact date and time of your birth or my birth. Its not when we are born, its what we do with our lives.
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10:07 AM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
You're missing the point - its not "when He was born" that is important.
The important part is that He was born.
Astromomers looked into the very question you asked. They were able to determine that there was a comet visible in the summer around the time that historians place the year of Christ's birth.
A better question might be, "Why was Jesus born?".
As to the exact date and time of His birth? No more important to history than the exact date and time of your birth or my birth. Its not when we are born, its what we do with our lives.
You're moving the goal posts. Wichita's point is solid. The site is useless for valid information. It's a feel good site for believers only. You can't draw any useful conclusions from it.
This again is an example of how little scrutiny the scriptures can handle (it's not limited to the NT/OT.)
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-25-2012).]
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10:25 AM
PFF
System Bot
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
You're missing the point - its not "when He was born" that is important.
The important part is that He was born.
Astromomers looked into the very question you asked. They were able to determine that there was a comet visible in the summer around the time that historians place the year of Christ's birth.
A better question might be, "Why was Jesus born?".
As to the exact date and time of His birth? No more important to history than the exact date and time of your birth or my birth. Its not when we are born, its what we do with our lives.
You are missing my point. Jesus wasn't a God, nor a son of God. He was one of the many who followed other splintered Jewish sects at that time vying for attention. The splintering of the Jewish religion into another main stream religion known as Christianity in its many shapes and forms was a circumstance of history, not because Jesus was anything special or a God. It is a fascinating history, much like Muhammad of Islam, Buddha of Buddhism and Confucius or even Abraham of the Jews. It was just dumb luck.
Knowing that truth, Jesus and the Bible does nothing for me to become some sort of worshiper of a dead person. Even the so called coveted Bible is missing so much of the story and writings it isn't even funny. It is like having a dictionary with half the letters not even being represented.
... It is a fascinating history, much like Muhammad of Islam, Buddha of Buddhism and Confucius or even Abraham of the Jews. It was just dumb luck.
Knowing that truth, Jesus and the Bible does nothing for me to become some sort of worshiper of a dead person. Even the so called coveted Bible is missing so much of the story and writings it isn't even funny. It is like having a dictionary with half the letters not even being represented.
Starting with presuppositions definatley has its drawbacks.
You are missing my point. Jesus wasn't a God, nor a son of God. He was one of the many who followed other splintered Jewish sects at that time vying for attention. The splintering of the Jewish religion into another main stream religion known as Christianity in its many shapes and forms was a circumstance of history, not because Jesus was anything special or a God. It is a fascinating history, much like Muhammad of Islam, Buddha of Buddhism and Confucius or even Abraham of the Jews. It was just dumb luck.
Knowing that truth, Jesus and the Bible does nothing for me to become some sort of worshiper of a dead person. Even the so called coveted Bible is missing so much of the story and writings it isn't even funny. It is like having a dictionary with half the letters not even being represented.
You touch on an important point here which is where I think some of the value lies. While Jesus is only addressing the local people of the day, those that elected to embellish the story did so for some very good reasons. The NT represents a transition from your value being tied to your blood line/status to being tied to your actions. That is a huge transition in human thinking (or a huge breakaway from the past.) The Greeks started it but it didn't expand to other regions in any great amount until this point.
Sadly, it's also tied to worshiping "a dead person" as the motivation. It doesn't have to be that way.
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10:52 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by Wichita: So why celebrate Christmas at all?
Got questions said this: "there is no legitimate scriptural reason not to celebrate Christmas".
Ok. So the Bible told them they couldn't, so you can.
If it isn't in the Bible, it isn't important. But if it isn't in the Bible, you can do whatever you like?
.
I think any important question you could ask is referenced one way or another in the Bible, many through principles and examples. You have a birthday, you can choose to celebrate it or not, same with anniversaries or anything else you would like ot honor and remember because it is important to you. There are people alive today who don't even have a record of the day they were born. They can still celebrate a birthday.
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10:54 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
You're moving the goal posts. Wichita's point is solid. The site is useless for valid information.
It is ENOUGH evidence for SOME people.
Other people want further substantiation.
An example of how to get it IF someone WANTS to get it:
Daniel 9:1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. The person mentioned in the Bible in Daniel 9:1 is a real historical figure according to SECULAR historians. Easy to verify solely in SECULAR sources.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; "...from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..."
Apparently those guys back then kept lots of records of their dealings, because you can look up in SECULAR history and verify this commandment, and SECULARLY establish the date this happened. So there is your secularly verifiable starting point.
"...seven weeks, and three score and two weeks..." isn't weeks of days. It is better translated sets of seven. So if you go from 69 sets of 7 years from the secularly established date of the decree, (and account that it was lunar years and not solar years, which over 483 years adds up), you actually come to EXACTLY the week that the person named Jesus who claimed he was the messiah and king of the jews, was crucified.
Now you can STILL claim that it was entirely a lucky guess that Daniel in 560-580 bc would be able to nail that week with specificity. Pretty high odds. But again, as I said before, it gets down to your burden of proof. But I don't care WHAT you conclude. I'm just giving you an example that you shouldn't just take the Bible's claims, AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO. There are plenty of instances that can be verified BY SECULAR HISTORY records. (there are plenty of instances where there is no way to verify via secular history).
You're kidding, right? You do realize that much of the stories written about Jesus were due to him dying unexpectedly? His "accident". That threw everyone into a tizzy. Interpolation abounds.
They had to rationalize and justify it happening and they looked for someway to deal with it.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-25-2012).]
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01:15 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
God appears to not posses any benevolence at all. 
Or maybe which climate is best to live in? Human nature is to be selfish. If we see something and don't like it because maybe it isn't what we prefer, or doesn't seem easy enough, or other people don't agree with it. Maybe it doesn't suit how we feel or how we have been treated in life so far. Maybe we choose not to choose which in itself its really a choice. These days we can even block all other points of view other than our own. Maybe for example joining forums or blogs where everyone thinks like me or agrees with me, only watching what we TIVO, never watching news, or only watching bias news..etc.
