...and while I believe in God, I don't believe everything the Bible says, as those were stories written by men hundreds of years after Jesus existed. ....
Zach
What was written "hundreds of years after Jesus existed"
It is commonly held that Revelation is the latest work of the New Testament, and its writing is dated to approximately 90AD. It can't be any later than 98AD because John wrote it while imprisoned on Patmos, from which he was released under the emperor Nerva (96 - 98AD).
We have more evidence, both internal and external, that the books that we have are materially the same as what the first century Christians held as doctrine. There are many spelling errors in the various texts and some minor transcription errors, but there are enough fragments and whole books that they can be cross checked against each other to determine with considerable accuracy what was written.
If you can't accept the Bible as an accurate representation of what was written, than you cannot rely on any work of antiquity. There is no ancient document that we have more material from closer to the original than the New Testament.
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08:16 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
To a very devoted religious Christian, I'm just nothing more than a Negro in their eyes. Me? I don't care what religion you say you practice or you believe in. I view you as a human being just like everybody else.
This is self contradicting and wrong on every level.
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09:34 AM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by Wichita: The vast majority of people don't really fully envelope themselves into their religion or their beliefs in god.
The issue with religion is that is in an acceptable crutch that many religious people use to justifiably discriminate against others.
To a very devoted religious Christian, I'm just nothing more than a Negro in their eyes.
Me? I don't care what religion you say you practice or you believe in. I view you as a human being just like everybody else. I just know it isn't reciprocated so much with religious people to those who aren't like them.
I have no idea. Are you a Negro? It wouldn't matter to me either way. Never crossed my mind.
I would agree with your life observations. My observation has ALSO been that "religious" people at large have devoted little time to truly understanding the foundation of what they believe and why. They also as a group don't tend to let it influence their day to day behavior. That is what kyunderdawg brought up.
In my observation, there are two main issues that non-believers have.
1. If you believe strongly, that is fine but don't PUSH it on me.
Just ASK me if you can talk about it with me. And if the answer is no, then don't keep pushing it. And if the answer is yes, then make a thoughtful, considered case and don't just tell me a story and expect me to believe it without substantiation of any kind.
(now SOME people are SO touchy, that the mere idea of asking them permission to talk about it is by definition PUSHING it on them, but in me experience that is the minority of people.)
2. If I disagree with you, or won't accept your beliefs, it isn't YOUR role to punish me for it by treating me differently than others.
And I agree. If someone won't let me discuss it with them, or discuss it with them and choose not to believe, I make sure they know that I will not be treating them any differently than I would have otherwise. I actively train other believers about these two issues (and others, of course). But as someone else pointed out, I don't have a national following. I exert my influence where I can, but it is local.
On the other hand, there might be a few followers of PFF that can read along in a thread like this and pick up something, too. You never know. If you look at the entirety of this thread, there has been little animosity, insulting, and even edginess.
"Yeah, well no one's mind was changed." OK. So. Doesn't mean it couldn't have been some benefit. If others get a chance to see how they appear to others, or how they make them feel, and that helps them interact in a better way in the future, that is a good thing.
Why would anyone want to go through this life thinking that there is nothing higher to believe in than a broken and faulty humanity? You exist,don't you? You are conscious,you feel pleasure,pain,hope,fear,cognitive thoughts,love..do you not? What created that? How could all this exist by accident?You see,that is the ultimate arrogance of mankind.The human mind is not capable of even remotely processing the truths that exist beyond the mortal body and (this) physical universe. There is indeed a higher truth,and all that separates you from that,and eternity,is that fist-sized muscle in the center of your chest.We are energy,our consciousness-our soul- is energy,and energy is eternal.
The problem is your conclusions aren't supported. It's a leap to a conclusion.
The next problem is - I don't believe people. Every time I ask a couple of simple questions about their claims, their answers are totally unconvincing (if I can get them past twinkle-ding-dong philosophical answers or quote scripture.) Why shouldn't a claim like this stand up to even the slightest scrutiny? A little? A tiny little bit? A very tiny little bit?
I can spend months asking questions to choosing a car but I am expect to believe people based on goose-bumps? Come on, throw me a bone here.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-20-2012).]
No, TK, not goose bumps, just the simple recognition that the cosmos was obviously designed. It didn't just happen; we have no experience with anything "just happening." And it obeys laws which go beyond simply hydrogen and oxygen atoms forming water. The cosmos obeys laws which show that they were laid down not at random, but with the understanding that there would be numerous places where the results of one law operating would have effects in other places. Organization/design is evidence of intelligence, and the intelligence which designed the cosmos is obviously far superior to normal human understanding. What would you call that but God?
No, TK, not goose bumps, just the simple recognition that the cosmos was obviously designed. It didn't just happen; we have no experience with anything "just happening." And it obeys laws which go beyond simply hydrogen and oxygen atoms forming water. The cosmos obeys laws which show that they were laid down not at random, but with the understanding that there would be numerous places where the results of one law operating would have effects in other places. Organization/design is evidence of intelligence, and the intelligence which designed the cosmos is obviously far superior to normal human understanding. What would you call that but God?
Well since you worked backwards from the answer ...
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10:59 PM
Jan 21st, 2012
hercimer01 Member
Posts: 2312 From: Rockford IL. Registered: Mar 2008
No, TK, not goose bumps, just the simple recognition that the cosmos was obviously designed. It didn't just happen; we have no experience with anything "just happening." And it obeys laws which go beyond simply hydrogen and oxygen atoms forming water. The cosmos obeys laws which show that they were laid down not at random, but with the understanding that there would be numerous places where the results of one law operating would have effects in other places. Organization/design is evidence of intelligence, and the intelligence which designed the cosmos is obviously far superior to normal human understanding. What would you call that but God?
Actually we do have evidence of things "just happening". What you may believe to be organization/design but it comes with extreme flaws so nothing ever is in a balance or perfect state. Randomness and chaos is apart of our being and within the universe as a whole. Quantum physics shows mathematically that "just happening" does happen.
If you believe your God to be perfect, it sure couldn't design anything perfect and it around about way, couldn't really do anything right. The so called, "all knowing, all loving" doesn't hold any truth in the observation and evidence we have about nature and the universe. It sure in the hell doesn't show it in the so called "written record of truth" in the Bible.
Even the so called "Christian/Jewish" the angry God killed mass populations of humans, banish most of his Angles (including his so called 2nd in command), created Hell and places non-believers there, just because you choose to not love him? Why does an angry God posses such love envy, and only directs that towards humans and doesn't require that his so called other creations to do the same, i.e. animals and plants? Think about that....just think!!!!! There was one time that the Christian/Jewish God actually said that killing lambs and burning them on an alter was a way to prove your love to him... God appears to not posses any benevolence at all.
God gave us free will argument...blah, blah, blah. Well, if you believe that we posses Free Will, then all the animals on the planet posses Free Will as well (by definition), but many religious people believe their God determines their fate and intervenes in their lives or the lives of others, well that isn't free will. Why does God seem to talk to some, but ignore billions of others?
That is why I have no choice but to render religious people completely indoctrinated or naive. Because what they believe is not only a fairy tail, but it is completely self-centered and selfishly absorbed ideology that makes no sense to logic and it resorts the believers to become lazy in seeking knowledge and lazy in thought, and at the same time used to justify their internal envy and jealousies and protrude them out or even act on it in under the cloak and shield of their religion.
Since I actually read the entire Bible and not just small passages from time to time. The one thing I get out of it, in what the many various descriptions of a deity is, it's nothing more than describing ourselves. Gods were created by civilization in order to use it to force order and morality within a large civilization group. An alpha wolf of the pack... and what better to use one that is invisible yet everywhere, vengeful yet merciful, punishes yet forgives, creates yet destroys. Something beyond the father of the house, the leader of the community, the governor of a providence and the king of the kingdom. Somebody that is above it all. So if the king believes in some God, the governors will too, and then the community leaders will and so it goes down the line to the family and the father/mother then will instill it on their children and they are forever indoctrinated.
The way the common religions describe their God, it appears to posses all the good and bad of humans, including error in judgement and far apart from what be perfection. An imperfect God that many of the naive and indoctrinated to be perfect. That is why I said it is describing ourselves.
If God is God, then we are that God. We (humans) are the Gods that every religion and philosopher refers to. We posses the power that the Gods are said to posses.
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 01-21-2012).]
Considering the universe has conspired to kill us for 500 million years and almost succeeded several times, I don't see why it's considered "perfect". On earth we have to stay one step ahead of our environment or we will vanish.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they reasoned themselves into. At the same time, faith in a higher power is something humans have been doing for over a hundred thousand years. It's not like it will change anytime soon nor can it be forced. A lot of people believe in god. A lot of people believe Jesus had super-powers. No kidding. I understand that and don't get wound up about it like it's something I just heard.
I do take exception to people that look at something and conclude it can only be the result of some super-being without any critical thought. You know, that just might not be the reason. I am fine with it philosophically to a point, but its usually presented as fact - and it's not.
I also take strong exception to some people's belief that they are somehow empowered by those *beliefs* when they attempt to make others join them. Paul wanted people to spread the good news but it's followed by "and if you don't". That's pretty arrogant. It's as if their faith somehow gives them the power of life and death. Once someone tells you to believe or suffer a horrible faith you are pretty screwed. Hey, you were told about god and Jesus and you refused to accept them. You are now ****ed. That's just plain stupid on so many levels. Kiss Hanks Ass.
I think that is part of Wichita's perspective (as it is my own.) He just delivers the message more strongly where I like to draw it out. Yes, I am speaking for him and he is now compelled to confirm my comments on his behalf.
But attempt to change someone faith? No, it's neither honorable or productive.
I don't much appreciate anyone who can't analyze a situation out of their own shoes. It goes for all groups. So I agree with you. Again, thanks.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
Not a moron. Either naive or indoctrinated in the subject of religion.
We all have a bit of nativity and indoctrination, either it be in nationalism, politics, religion or other.
The vast majority of people don't really fully envelope themselves into their religion or their beliefs in god. It is just a passing thought that people don't even spend more than 1% of their lives even thinking about God or Religion.
The issue with religion is that is in an acceptable crutch that many religious people use to justifiably discriminate against others. It's not just Christianity. Muslims discriminate against non-believers, Christians do to, Mormons don't allow non-Mormons in their ceremonies, Jews and so on.
To a very devoted religious Christian, I'm just nothing more than a Negro in their eyes. Me? I don't care what religion you say you practice or you believe in. I view you as a human being just like everybody else. I just know it isn't reciprocated so much with religious people to those who aren't like them.
You love Jesus? That's great. I love titties, so that's my thing.
I don't really understand your point about seeing a Negro. I see everyone as an individual... not groups. You're the one that lumps people together. But I do see religion used as a crutch and a discrimination tool. It isn't how it was designed to be, but people morph things to use it for themselves. It's the selfish side of us.
Again, what I said doesn't necessarily mean that's what I actually believe you think... but that's what I see. When you speak to or about religious folk, you talk down on them. It doesn't really matter what you actually think when what is perceived is entirely different.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
We all have a bit of nativity
Freudian slip?
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02:45 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by fierophenom: There is indeed a higher truth,and all that separates you from that,and eternity,is that fist-sized muscle in the center of your chest.We are energy,our consciousness-our soul- is energy,and energy is eternal.
The energy that our bodies run on is extracted from the food we eat.
If you eat a lot of junk food, does it mean you have a "junk" soul?
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03:00 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Again, what I said doesn't necessarily mean that's what I actually believe you think... but that's what I see. When you speak to or about religious folk, you talk down on them. It doesn't really matter what you actually think when what is perceived is entirely different.
People talk down about Communist and Nazi folks, especially about Islam in this country. Why does the Christian religion seem to get a pass for all the ills it has caused and the awful ideology that it is, just because it is very popular in our country?
Just keep religion out of the law books and there isn't going to be any issues. Devoutly religious people can become dangerous if given authoritarian powers. They would use their religion as the basis of governance. Look at Muslim countries?
Since most of our founding fathers were not Christian or religious in any sense, they developed a Constitutional Government that fits really well for liberty and freedom. We don't need the Bible in our government.
People talk down about Communist and Nazi folks, especially about Islam in this country. Why does the Christian religion seem to get a pass for all the ills it has caused and the awful ideology that it is, just because it is very popular in our country?
Just keep religion out of the law books and there isn't going to be any issues. Devoutly religious people can become dangerous if given authoritarian powers. They would use their religion as the basis of governance. Look at Muslim countries?
Since most of our founding fathers were not Christian or religious in any sense, they developed a Constitutional Government that fits really well for liberty and freedom. We don't need the Bible in our government.
I agree with that.
It doesn't mean you don't talk down to others.
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03:10 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Originally posted by Wichita: What you perceive to be talk down, is a wake up call or a deprogramming message.
And I suppose you think you're the person to deliver that message. Because, you're obviously smarter than any of the superstitious morons, right? You've got it all figured out. You just need to pound it into their thick skulls. So you're going to get on your digital pulpit, and preach your message to the unwashed.
The irony is delicious.
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04:40 PM
PFF
System Bot
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
Originally posted by Wichita: Since most of our founding fathers were not Christian or religious in any sense, they developed a Constitutional Government that fits really well for liberty and freedom. We don't need the Bible in our government.
Really?????????
Not Christian or religious in any sense.......?
Really?????????
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05:20 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
And I suppose you think you're the person to deliver that message. Because, you're obviously smarter than any of the superstitious morons, right? You've got it all figured out. You just need to pound it into their thick skulls. So you're going to get on your digital pulpit, and preach your message to the unwashed.
The irony is delicious.
I don't think I'm that person. Most every here is too old and stubborn to really change. Indoctrination runs so deep within most people that you're nothing but lost causes.
I'm just humble nut trying to get some titties and butt.
I don't buy into it. Religion is a safety-net. People always "find" god in harsh times like prison or disease. It helps the mind cope with situations in hard times to think there is some all powerful being who is looking out for them. Or if a loved one dies it is easier to accept to think they are somewhere wonderful.
It also used to provide an answer to all the questions we didn't have the knowledge to answer ourselves in older times. IE the plagues, disease were all Godly things and not scientific natural events that we understand them to be today. When you look at it logically the bible makes absolutely no sense. Like many other religions it has ridiculousness and claims that can be no where near supported. (Outside of the same book, circular logic)
It's so easy to see how religion is ridiculous when you look at other religions. People (In America) have no problem looking at Islam many times and saying that crazy you think you get 72 virgins when you die? Or, you think when you die you get reincarnated until you finally achieve Nirvana? Etc. It is crazy because you did not grow up with it. However we read Jesus came back from the dead or walked on water we have no problem.. because from early child hood we are raised with it, and accept it. We associate living forever in a nice place as being sound while coming back to life in another body (reincarnation) as something totally unbelievable and ridiculous. Neither can prove the fact that their version is true past (again) the religious books that say so.
Christianity is also a borrowed religion. there are documented (literally) over 100 religions prior to it that have 1.) Virgin birth of a savior 2.) Who has 12 exactly disciples. 3.) Was the son of God 4.) and rose from the dead.
With many having even more almost exact characteristics thousands of years before Jesus (like walking on water). Many rooted from Egypt.
I have been in private religious schools my whole life and probably know more about the bible and it's composition + roots than most devout Christians. I find it fascinating still though, that so many people can believe in something like it. Right now at my university I am required to take 9 total credits in religious study, so right now I am taking a course solely studying the process the bible underwent in its creation.
I have no problem with religious people. I just bothers me when they try and push their beliefs on other people. */Flame shield on*/
Even the Christian symbol of the cross originated as a Pagan symbol of worship that Christianity assimilated, like many of its traits.
[This message has been edited by rmbrown09 (edited 01-21-2012).]
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06:04 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Some of the least religious people I've ever met were raised in religious schools. It makes me wonder how much of that is just rebellion against what they've been taught.
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06:08 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
Some of the least religious people I've ever met were raised in religious schools. It makes me wonder how much of that is just rebellion against what they've been taught.
^^^ That.
My dad was brought up in a fairly orthodox Jewish family. My mother in one far less so.
My father was less interested in following traditions. Holidays and such. Not much more. Mom sent us (my brother and I) to the Jewish equivalent of parochial school.
Makes me wonder what Wichita's upbringing was like. Or rayb's.
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06:53 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Makes me wonder what Wichita's upbringing was like. Or rayb's.
No idea about Rayb's but I beleive Wichita was raised in a Catholic home. He attended church when he was younger and when he grew up he learned about the history of the Bible and decided it wasn't for him. He found that he didn't beleive and rejected religion. That is if I remember correctly, although I may have one or 2 parts wrong (not positive on Catholic) or I may be thinking of another member (but I don't think I am).
I personally find nothing wrong with that and I do not begrudge him for not beleiving. "If" you truely beleive that God gave people free will, then that means you can choose to beleive or not, you are not forced to beleive. So that is his choice, no one but him has the right to make it.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 01-21-2012).]
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08:46 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Some of the least religious people I've ever met were raised in religious schools. It makes me wonder how much of that is just rebellion against what they've been taught.
Not Rebellion. It is that you go through an educational discipline that has you thinking and questioning everything, verses the government school system that is centered around indoctrination and lowest common denominator.
I've believe that god has been created by man to explain what man cannot or to provide a level of comfort.
How was the universe made? God made it so. How did he overcome that illness? God protected him. I'm having difficulties in my life, God give me strength to over come. What happens when we die? God takes care of us.
That's the how I view god... So do I think God really exist? Yes, because we created God.
Edit: To add another example.
[This message has been edited by Fiero_Fan_88 (edited 01-21-2012).]
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10:57 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Originally posted by rmbrown09: People always "find" god in harsh times like prison or disease.
I'm a bit confused on that part of your post. Did you actually mean "People in harsh times, like prison or disease, always "find" god"? Because I'm pretty sure alot of people out there found God without having harsh times like prison or disease.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 01-21-2012).]
I'm a bit confused on that part of your post. Did you actually mean "People in harsh times, like prison or disease, always "find" god"? Because I'm pretty sure alot of people out there found God without having harsh times like prison or disease.
I think he was using "always" figuratively.
I don't agree that even most people find God in tough times, but I do think that it happens a lot.
Some of the least religious people I've ever met were raised in religious schools. It makes me wonder how much of that is just rebellion against what they've been taught.
A lot of people just don't buy it even from an early age no matter what their background. Some go on to be open about it while others hide it to avoid being hassled. I will guarantee you there are people reading this thread that would like to speak up but can't.
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03:11 AM
TheRealShadowX Member
Posts: 1456 From: Milwaukee Wisconsin USA Registered: Mar 2010
I don't think I'm that person. Most every here is too old and stubborn to really change. Indoctrination runs so deep within most people that you're nothing but lost causes.
I'm just humble nut trying to get some titties and butt.
In your eyes we are lost causes, whereas in the eyes of a religious person, there is still hope for you.
That should tell you something.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 01-22-2012).]
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11:27 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20707 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
And the same thing that happens in every thread about religion happens again..
Pose the OP in a way that makes it clear you are only interested in confirmation. That way non-believers stand out as having the sole purpose of disrupting the thread.
God appears to not posses any benevolence at all. 
