quote Originally posted by blackrams: Even if the ice is traveling at an equal but opposite direction?

Maybe we can borrow Cliff's huge chunk of floating ice to test this out.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-24-2007).]

FieroRumor has the penguins!! hahaha!!
Nick
Depends which source of power is the strongest Cliff ..either way, some penguins would get killed, when the saliboat falls on top of them
Edit to add: oooops!! The forces are equal..but the sailboat would STILL fall on top of the penguins eventually

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 12-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: A plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyer). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction. This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). The question is: Will the plane take off or not?

In your quote, note it says the plane MOVES. If it did not move forward, the treadmill would not move backwards.

I think at this point, you are a troll egging this on, or you suffer a bad mental deficiency.

THE PLANE WILL FLY

Gene

[This message has been edited by scrabblegod (edited 12-24-2007).]

So.... How many pages will this thread get to be until the end of next month? Should Cliff create a Sub-Forum for O/T that says 'Plane 'n a Treadmill' ? When the Mythbusters do perform the myth on TV, will the stock of airplanes & treadmills rise or fall? Should the Presidential candidates be discussing whether or not the plane will fly? Who is flying the plane? Do they have a co-pilot?
If the plane does fly, will the non believers try to still deny it?

Will they try to risk their lives pulling down on the plane screaming "Impossible!"

[This message has been edited by PontiacJ829 (edited 12-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Maybe we can borrow Cliff's huge chunk of floating ice to test this out.

Patrick,
You seem to have added a new dimension to the picture. I'm a little slow but picked up on that one.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Patrick, You seem to have added a new dimension to the picture. I'm a little slow but picked up on that one.

Ron, you must be referring to the addition of the puck on the ice.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Ron, you must be referring to the addition of the puck on the ice.

Ah Yeah, that's it.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

He's baaack...

Everyone else thinks the plane will fly?

Let's look at it this way:

The wind is calm. The plane is taxiing, going 5 knots. We all know thrust is moving the plane but it's still moving on the ground.
The conveyor's control system is off. It gets to the middle of the conveyor. The control system turns on. What happens?

The conveyor's speed is going 5 knots in reverse.
Will there be forward motion?
No. The plane will look like it's standing still.

Take the engines to full throttle. It's still rolling on the conveyor, still sitting still from a outsider's viewpoint. There's no lift. No lift, no flight.

If you are walking on a moving walkway going the exact speed in reverse, will you move forward? If you're flying 95 knots with a 95 knot headwind, will you move? If you're in a boat going 5 knots with a 5 knot current, will you move?

It seems like what is being said is the plane is moving and the conveyor ether has no effect or it aids the plane.

scrabblegod: the plane has to get on the conveyer somehow and the perception of movement is indicated when throttle is applied. The conveyor negates forward motion.

Nick:
AAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!!! PLEASE!!!! The throttle controls the engines. The engines control the thrust of the propellers/turbines. The thrust is against a static force...AIR!! The thrust against the air causes a vacuum in front of the propellers/turbines, which pulls them, and therefore the plane too, forward!!! Faster and faster....UNTIL IT TAKES OFF!!!!Nick

Thrust is against air but the plane is still moving on the ground. It needs to travel along the ground until a speed is reached where lift is possible. If forward motion is countered by the control system, it won't fly.

Your question states:
Them the pilot opens the throttle full out, which generates say 2000 ft/lbs, which is more than enough to propel the plane against the drag, and increase its speed to take-off speed..and it will fly away!!
The plane's speed is being countered. It will not move forward.

formula88:
If the plane's flying, the conveyor has no effect on the plane. It will stay flying.

Cliff:
The wind is pushing the ice to the buoy. The iceboat pilot sits back, throws the anchor onto the ice and grabs a cold one off the buoy as it floats by...

Gokart, how far can you drive in your Fiero before you get nervous about falling off the edge?

1. What edge?
2. No Fiero.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: 1. What edge? 2. No Fiero.

1) The edge of the flat earth.
2) No Fiero, fewer problems...

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Gokart, how far can you drive in your Fiero before you get nervous about falling off the edge?

Thanks, I needed that.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

Gokart, if you are indeed not just trolling this along, then I have a question or two.

Did you watch the three YouTube videos embedded by Formula on Page 1 about 2/3 of the way down? What did you think of the results, and why?


P.S.
Merry Christmas everybody!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 12-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: If forward motion is countered by the control system, it won't fly.

Here is your error,
It doesn't say the speed will be countered, It says it will move at the same speed in the opposite direction.

No, I'm not trolling.
OK, I watched the videos.

In the second video the speed of the plane is being increased, going faster than the treadmill. The control system isn't working. It should increase speed to match the plane.

Wolfhound:
If the speeds are moving in opposite directions, forward motion is countered.

V1=plane
V2=conveyor
V3=plane in relation to surrounding air/ground

If V1 is 20 knots, V2 is -20 knots. V3 is 0.
Increase V1 to 40 knots. V2 is -40. V3 is 0.

Your leaving out ground and asigning the V-value to the conveyer, They are not the same. If they were the same the conveyer wouldn't be moving.

Ground has a V value of ZERO.
Later have to fly the plane to a Christmas party .

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Later have to fly the plane to a Christmas party .

Stay off the conveyer, or you will never get there


Gene

Google "airplane" and "conveyor" and look at the pages of debates going on!
Kudos to Formula for at least attempting a proof, even if the plane didn't
fly!
tg

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Your leaving out ground and asigning the V-value to the conveyer, They are not the same. If they were the same the conveyer wouldn't be moving. Ground has a V value of ZERO. Later have to fly the plane to a Christmas party .

Is that where you're have issues?

I am not mixing the two.

Ground is assumed 0 and not mentioned. Call it V4 if you want.

Add windspeed V5 if it makes you feel better but it wasn't mentioned in the original question.

Party must be at your place.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: If the speeds are moving in opposite directions, forward motion is countered.

No. That's wrong.

In order for the speeds to be cancelled, the conveyor must apply a force to the plane equal and opposite of the the force generated by the plane's engine.
There is no way for the conveyor to do this, since the plane is sitting on wheels. Any movement by the conveyor only spins the wheels and cannot move the plane.

In the treadmill video, he had the treadmill set at 10 mph - it was going FASTER than the plane, and still didn't slow down the plane.

In a car, the engine turns the wheels and the wheels push against the road - propelling the car forward. If you move the road backwards, you will effectively cancel out the car's movement. This is true because the car's energy is output through the wheels.

In a plane, the engine pushes the air. The conveyor has no effect on the air, so it can't keep the plane from moving.

Given your arguments, it won't even matter what Myth Busters says. You'll argue they didn't use this magical CONTROL SYSTEM on the conveyor, so it can't stop the plane. Get over the control system. It's irrelevant. If matching the speed of the plane with the conveyor would stop it, then having the conveyor go faster would move the plane backwards - and the video I linked a while ago clearly shows that's not the case.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: In a plane, the engine pushes the air. The conveyor has no effect on the air, so it can't keep the plane from moving.

THIS is where the problem is.

The engine pushes the air which moves the plane against the ground until it reaches takeoff speed.

With the conveyor moving opposite the plane's speed, there's no speed to generate lift.

V1=plane speed
V2=conveyor - 100% reverse of V1
V3=plane in relation to ground and air
V4=ground - 0 - constant
V5=wind - not mentioned so say calm
V6=wind over wings
V7=distance to edge of world - closer than you think

If the plane speed and conveyor speed are the same when the tests are done I won't have a need to argue.

I give up. At this point, I can't tell if you truly don't understand or if you're being a troll.

One day, put on some roller skates and stand on a treadmill. See if you can hold yourself in one place with the handle bar while the treadmill goes faster and faster.
Just as your arms don't hold you still through the wheels - neither does the plane's engine propel it through the wheels.

The conveyor speed is irrelevant.
The controller is irrelevant.

If you're still young and in school, perhaps one day you'll take a physics course and you can ask the teacher to explain it. If you don't grasp it then, I'm afraid you're going to flunk physics.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-25-2007).]

One last go
Gravity. The conveyor belt is totally flat, or we assume so. The force of gravity exerted on the plane is far and beyond the force of drag which the conveyor belt could ever exert on the wheels and the suspension of the plane. If the plane was standing still, and the conveyor belt was started in motion,its energy exerted to overcome inertia in the wheels would cause the plane to move slightly backwards, with the conveyor. As soon as the inertia had been overcome, the plane would stop, and the wheels would just revolve at the same speed as the belt. because the mass of the plane would be subjected to a higher force than the drag being exerted on the wheels.Gravity. So, add the power of the thrust of the engine, and the plane would moved forward faster and faster, NO MATTER HOW FAST THE CONVEYOR BELT ACCELERATED. We can all identify with that phenomena..ever been in a sliding skid,on ice, and tried to control it with more power, or more brakes? Totally ineffective, once the wheels have lost grip.Once the wheels on the plane had started turning, the conveyor belt could never retrieve it, unless the plane and the belt stopped moving. Then it would happen all over again.The clip of the flowerpot I linked to explains it all. Pull the cloth slowly, and the pot moves with it. Pull it sharply, and it stays where it is, held down by inertia, or gravity ( I suspect they are very much one and the same )
Some poetic licence indulged in, out of sheer desperation!! Hahahaha!!
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 12-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: If the speeds are moving in opposite directions, forward motion is countered.

LOL

I hate to burst your bubble, but you are wrong. I'm not just saying that to be rude. You are actually wrong. For almost 5 whole pages of this thread, we've been trying to explain to you how and why you are wrong. And you refuse to listen.

This is not a philosophical discussion. It is not open to interpretation. This is hard science. You're attempting to deny scientifically proven fact. You're casting the laws of physics out the window, and replacing them with your incorrect assumptions.

It's like sitting in physics class and telling your instructor "No, force does not really equal mass times acceleration. Sorry teacher, but I disagree". Of course, if that were the case, you'd fail physics class.

Get the idea yet?

By the way, Merry Christmas.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: V7=distance to edge of world - closer than you think

In the spirit of Christmas, I suggest we all pitch in and buy Gokart a lifetime membership to The Flat Earth Society.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: In the spirit of Christmas, I suggest we all pitch in and buy Gokart a lifetime membership to The Flat Earth Society.

They do have an interesting disclaimer:

The Flat Earth Society is not in any way responsible for the failure of the French to repel the Germans at the Maginot Line during WWII. Nor is the Flat Earth Society responsible for the recent yeti sightings outside the Vatican, or for the unfortunate enslavement of the Nabisco Inc. factory employees by a rogue hamster insurrectionist group. Furthermore, we are not responsible for the loss of one or more of the following, which may possibly occur as the result of exposing one's self to the dogmatic and dangerously subversive statements made within: life, limb, vision, Francois Mitterand, hearing, taste, smell, touch, thumb, Aunt Mildred, citizenship, spleen, bedrock, cloves, I Love Lucy reruns, toaster, pine derby racer, toy duck, antelope, horseradish, prosthetic ankle, double-cheeseburger, tin foil, limestone, watermelon-scented air freshner, sanity, paprika, German to Pig Latin dictionary, dish towel, pet Chihuahua, pogo stick, Golf Digest subscription, floor tile, upper torso or halibut.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-25-2007).]

I was going to post this earlier in the day but got sidetracked with Christmas dinner and rumnog. Anyway, some of it's been said now (almost exactly- about MythBusters. ) but I'll post it anyway since I took the time to type most of it.

G.M.:
Notice in the first video that the time it took for the airplane to move forward without the treadmill on was almost exactly the same as the time it took for the airplane to move forward with the treadmill on, no matter the treadmill's speed.
Also, notice that he increased the speed of the treadmill while holding the throttle steady, and the treadmill speed didn't affect the position of the airplane. Because it cannot.

Also by your logic, MythBusters won't prove a thing, as they don't have that perfect control system. The truth is that any control system, no matter how perfectly accurate, absolutely cannot hold the plane from moving forward once the wheel friction is overcome (minimal). It absolutely cannot hold it back. It can't. It's true.

In your assertion that the plane will not fly if it stays perfectly in place relative to the ground, I completely agree. No lift over the wings, no fly. In that, you are absolutely right. Right you are. Not wrong at all.
Where you are wrong is in your assumption that the conveyor has the ability to counter the plane's forward movement relative to the stationary ground. Again, it cannot, for reasons explained multiple times. Now you must agree that if it cannot, then the plane would move forward, gaining airspeed, and would take off as usual. This is what actually happens. It's true.

Now, you said this: "The engine pushes the air which moves the plane against the ground until it reaches takeoff speed."
That is incorrect. The correct statement would read as such; "The engine pushes the air which moves the plane against the air until it reaches takeoff speed." It only rolls on the ground, and not against it. The two aren't fighting at all. In fact they like each other.

Basically, this has been set before you from every possible angle that I can think of, short of the theoretical scenario actually playing out in front of your eyes. You either really don't get it and no amount of letters on a computer screen will ever convince you of the truth, or you do get it and you're trying to waste bandwidth. That's about all I can say right now.

Advanced Physics Forums even argues with 9 pages but here's some key points:

--------------------------
Ok some of us here seem to be confused. Unless the conveyer belt is pulling air around with it the plane will not lift off of the ground. The purpose of thrust is to overcome all the types of drag (friction, induced, pressure), accelerating it forward thereby moving air around the wings to generate lift.
If the plane is held to zero velocity with respect to the air around it by the conveyer belt then it does not lift off.

No lift no take off.
---------------------------
I think everyone is assuming that the engines in one way or another create the airflow over the wings regardless of the velocity of the plane itself. That is, that although the plane is at rest in the frame of the ground, the air is propelled over the wings by the engines and so IT is not at rest in the frame of the ground and hence creates thrust.
---------------------------
Good grief. Are any of you in the real world ? Aircraft lift by air flowing over the wing. For a jet, at about 200mph. The jet engines do NOT blow air over the wings. They provide forward thrust. Right ? The jet has to be going 200mph with respect to the air to get off the ground.
If it's on a conveyor going backwards so that the plane is doing less than 200mph with respect to the air IT WILL NOT LIFT OFF.
To hold the jet at zero speed with respect to the air the engines powering the conveyor need to be as powerful as the plane engines, you should know that equal and opposite forces cancel out. In fact much more powerful because conveyors have huge frictional losses.
-----------------------
The key thing is... what happens with the air moving around the plane, so we need to focus only on that.
The only way to take off (if any) will be with a really very high speed wind, in the same direction of the moving conveyor. This of course is not a normal condition. In any other case with the only engine I am sure it will fall down. Need the wings too !!
So I think the answer is the aircraft wil not be able to get airborne.

We've been through all that.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: If the plane is held to zero velocity with respect to the air around it by the conveyer belt then it does not lift off. --------------------------- That is, that although the plane is at rest in the frame of the ground --------------------------- Aircraft lift by air flowing over the wing. ----------------------- The key thing is... what happens with the air moving around the plane, so we need to focus only on that.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: ...the treadmill speed didn't affect the position of the airplane. Because it cannot. ...The truth is that any control system, no matter how perfectly accurate, absolutely cannot hold the plane from moving forward once the wheel friction is overcome (minimal). It absolutely cannot hold it back. It can't. It's true. ...In your assertion that the plane will not fly if it stays perfectly in place relative to the ground, I completely agree. No lift over the wings, no fly. In that, you are absolutely right. Right you are. Not wrong at all. ...assumption that the conveyor has the ability to counter the plane's forward movement relative to the stationary ground. Again, it cannot, for reasons explained multiple times. Now you must agree that if it cannot, then the plane would move forward, gaining airspeed, and would take off as usual. This is what actually happens. It's true.

Ok here is a good analogy to use. Let's take a conveyor and put a person on it. If he walks he will not move anywhere due to the conveyor going the opposite direction. Not let's simulate thrust. Give the guy a rope to pull on. he will pull himself forward as he pulls against the rope. That should help describe how thrust works.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: You forgot the other arguments from the same so called "Advanced Physics Forums"... "I found this explanation on another forum. I think he expains it better than I do: "There are four forces that govern an airplane at any given time: lift, weight, thrust and drag. Lift and weight oppose each other but can be disregarded in this question because all we are talking about it whether or not the airplane can accelerate in reference to the surrounding air. Once we get acceleration and airflow we can get the lift and weight but we don't need to talk about that now. The throttle of the airplane is advanced and propeller/jet of the airplane produces thrust. We now have a forward vector, say 500 pounds of force, for a small cessna. In order for the plane to remain stationary an equal and opposite force needs to be introduced. Everybody follow? This opposite force would be drag. We need to account for 500 pounds of drag. Right now the only drag is the force of friction in the wheel bearing. Has anyone here ever tried to push a cessna? It's not very hard...maybe 50 pounds of force at the most. So now we have 450 pounds of force acting in the forward direction. The conveyor belt itself does not impart any friction or drag to the airplane. It will accelerate, gain airspeed, and take off Let's think of it a different way. Let's say the plane is landing. It approaches the runway at 100 knots and is 1 foot above the ground. As posed in the original question the conveyor belt is moving in an equal and opposite direction. So it's moving 100 knots backwards. As soon as the plane touches down, what happens? nothing...it continues its rollout as if the runway were stationary. It doesn't just automatically come to a stop. The airspeed indicator of the plane would read 100 but the wheel speed would be 200. (apologies to Youens at flightinfo.com) People cannot separate a car/bike/walking on a treadmill with an airplane. Same thing would happen if you put the airplane on ice and hit the throttle, it will still accelerate at the exact same rate as on a runway (not a safe operation however). Try that with a car/bike/your foot and you'll get drastically different results."

Think I read something akin to this before on this thread ..Oh Yeah!! here it is :

QUOTE: last go
Gravity. The conveyor belt is totally flat, or we assume so. The force of gravity exerted on the plane is far and beyond the force of drag which the conveyor belt could ever exert on the wheels and the suspension of the plane. If the plane was standing still, and the conveyor belt was started in motion,its energy exerted to overcome inertia in the wheels would cause the plane to move slightly backwards, with the conveyor. As soon as the inertia had been overcome, the plane would stop, and the wheels would just revolve at the same speed as the belt. because the mass of the plane would be subjected to a higher force than the drag being exerted on the wheels.Gravity. So, add the power of the thrust of the engine, and the plane would moved forward faster and faster, NO MATTER HOW FAST THE CONVEYOR BELT ACCELERATED. We can all identify with that phenomena..ever been in a sliding skid,on ice, and tried to control it with more power, or more brakes? Totally ineffective, once the wheels have lost grip.Once the wheels on the plane had started turning, the conveyor belt could never retrieve it, unless the plane and the belt stopped moving. Then it would happen all over again.The clip of the flowerpot I linked to explains it all. Pull the cloth slowly, and the pot moves with it. Pull it sharply, and it stays where it is, held down by inertia, or gravity ( I suspect they are very much one and the same )
Some poetic licence indulged in, out of sheer desperation!! Hahahaha!!
Nick
UNQUOTE: ..And I never took physics at school..but learned a lot about it at University..the University of Life
It is also known as logic
Nick
PS...no body seems to give any creedence to my experiment on the Mall here.Obviously, I needed to make a video clip of it, but couldn´t. I will try to do it again, but get somebody to film it!!
And in answer to the question posed about the speed of the moving walkway: having thought about it some more, and visualizing what happened, I can say this. The walkway was probably going faster backwards, than the plane needed to move forwards in order to take off. In other words it took off without reaching the point where it stood on the walkway BEFORE it started moving, relative to the stationary fground all around. So take-off speed was slower than the rearward movement of the walkway.

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 12-26-2007).]

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: Ok here is a good analogy to use. Let's take a conveyor and put a person on it. If he walks he will not move anywhere due to the conveyor going the opposite direction. Not let's simulate thrust. Give the guy a rope to pull on. he will pull himself forward as he pulls against the rope. That should help describe how thrust works.

Put him on roller skates and the analogy in dead on..

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Put him on roller skates and the analogy in dead on..

Though, I am in agreement, I suspect you're wasting your effort. Either, the non-believers just don't understand or, they are pushing our buttons to get a reaction. That's OK, it's not like we don't already have several instigators. Happy Holidays and Be Safe out there.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Though, I am in agreement, I suspect you're wasting your effort. Either, the non-believers just don't understand or, they are pushing our buttons to get a reaction. That's OK, it's not like we don't already have several instigators. Happy Holidays and Be Safe out there.

I tend to agree. If it's not trolling for the heck of it, then it's a concept that is either beyond their ability to comprehend or our ability to explain. Some people could stand there in person and watch a real airplane take off from a huge moving conveyor belt (complete with magical control system) and still not understand it.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-26-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Put him on roller skates and the analogy in dead on..

Yea I thought of that after I went to bed. Wasn't getting back up just for that.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Though, I am in agreement, I suspect you're wasting your effort. Either, the non-believers just don't understand or, they are pushing our buttons to get a reaction. That's OK, it's not like we don't already have several instigators. Happy Holidays and Be Safe out there.

I've suspected that there's some BS involved and I hope that's true , Other wise it scares me a bit. It may be time to implement the "No Child Left Behind on the Conveyor belt Act"

edited to say: You have to admit it's really entertaining thread anyway.

[This message has been edited by Wolfhound (edited 12-26-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: I've suspected that there's some BS involved and I hope that's true , Other wise it scares me a bit. It may be time to implement the "No Child Left Behind on the Conveyor belt Act" edited to say: You have to admit it's really entertaining thread anyway.

Now, that thar's funny, I don't care who you are.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: In the second video the speed of the plane is being increased, going faster than the treadmill. The control system isn't working. It should increase speed to match the plane.

In the first video he showed that the treadmill was moving at a greater speed than the plane could acheive. So the plane was actually increasing speed to match the treadmill. Even then, the plane was still moving in a positive direction.

------------------
"Semper Fiero"

Saw this avatar in another forum:

Is there no one who hasn't debated this topic?