quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Friction. tires on ground, bearings in wheels speed of wheels gravity and weight of plane They are connected. Why have these been ignored?

Because the amount of drag caused by these is insignificant. Once the intial force is overcome it is moot.


Wow I own yet another page of drivel!,,,,,,, hehehe

It's not how many licks does it take to get to the center? but how many pages does it take to see the obvious.

[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 01-10-2008).]

haha it doesnt matter if the wheels locked up, if its got enough power its taking off! although with the wheels locked up that could get interesting

If the tires are locked, how fast can you get going, how long would it take and wouldn't they blow? Once again I have to say, where are your numbers?

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: If the tires are locked, how fast can you get going, how long would it take and wouldn't they blow? Once again I have to say, where are your numbers?

How about you show me numbers showing how the conveyor has an effect on the plane's speed. Remember, we're talking physics here. Speed is a byproduct of force being applied to a mass over time. Show me how the conveyor exerts a force on the plane equal to the thrust of the plane.

Look at the body of the plane. You have the force of the engine pushing the body forward.
How does the conveyor act? It pulls against the landing gear. Where does that force go? We know some of the force spins the wheels, and the friction of the bearings exerts a drag on the body of the plane. What other forces are exerted on the plane's body?

Wheel bearing friction isn't going to matter. Planes are designed to roll on their landing gear until they take off. As far as the landing gear is concerned, this is no different than taking off with a tail wind where the plane has to go faster than normal ground speed to get off the ground. The wheels and their friction are not going to stop the plane.

So, how does the force of the conveyor belt, which can only pull against the wheel, exert a force on the body of the plane rather than just spin the wheel?

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Friction. tires on ground, bearings in wheels speed of wheels gravity and weight of plane They are connected. Why have these been ignored?

not ignored. even with no treadmill, these forces already exist. the plane weighs the same. the tires roll on the ground. the only change is the speed at which the wheels will be rolling. and, I do beleive that mankind has managed to produce tires & wheel bearings that can handle this - quite handily. especially due to the fact that landing - which is MUCH faster & creates much more gravity impact, and intruduces MUCH more drag in braking is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder on the tires.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: How about you show me numbers showing how the conveyor has an effect on the plane's speed. Remember, we're talking physics here. Speed is a byproduct of force being applied to a mass over time. Show me how the conveyor exerts a force on the plane equal to the thrust of the plane. Look at the body of the plane. You have the force of the engine pushing the body forward. How does the conveyor act? It pulls against the landing gear. Where does that force go? We know some of the force spins the wheels, and the friction of the bearings exerts a drag on the body of the plane. What other forces are exerted on the plane's body? Wheel bearing friction isn't going to matter. Planes are designed to roll on their landing gear until they take off. As far as the landing gear is concerned, this is no different than taking off with a tail wind where the plane has to go faster than normal ground speed to get off the ground. The wheels and their friction are not going to stop the plane. So, how does the force of the conveyor belt, which can only pull against the wheel, exert a force on the body of the plane rather than just spin the wheel?

I AGREE

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So, how does the force of the conveyor belt, which can only pull against the wheel, exert a force on the body of the plane rather than just spin the wheel?

Once again, Reason rears its ugly head.

6 more days until the episode airs

This question has been posted all over the internet, and just about every site concurs that the plane will fly. Of course, on just about every site, there are a few people who can't understand the logic that a plane on a conveyor belt is not like a car (or human body for that matter) on a conveyor belt; and the same principles don't apply to a plane.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html

Instead of watching the Mythbusters episode, I'd get more entertainment if a few cameras were set up in the nay-sayer's homes so that we could see their reaction when the plane does fly. Although, how much do you want to bet that there'll be a reply or thread the day after, telling everybody that the Mythbuster's did the test wrong; and had they done it another way; the plane wouldn't have flown. - Only 6 more days till we get to see that reply/thread.

This little baby already proved it to me


When I go to meet Ellie at Barcelona Airport on Monday, I am taking the plane, and my video camera, and I am going to try to video the plane taking off from one of the moving walkways again...it did it once..but I didn´t have a camera with me
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-25-2008).]

Sorry Nick, that won't convince anyone, there's no magic box matching the planes speed.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: This little baby already proved it to me When I go to meet Ellie at Barcelona Airport on Monday, I am taking the plane, and my video camera, and I am going to try to video the plane taking off from one of the moving walkways again...it did it once..but I didn´t have a camera with me Nick

Air Hogs rule!

I got one for Xmas - tho - I broke it already....crashed into a fence....good thing they be stupid easy to fix! YAY!

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Sorry Nick, that won't convince anyone, there's no magic box matching the planes speed.

Ah!! HaHaha!! I already have the answer to THAT Ron!! The speed required by this plane to take off is about the same as the speed of the walkway!! So...the acceleration of the two up to the point of take-off is irrelevant..so long as the speed of the walkway going backwards is still equal to the take-off speed of the plane AT THE MOMENT OF LIFT-OFF...therefore doing away with all the paraphanalia of control boxes etc etc...
HAHAHAHA!! I don't have an IQ of 187 for NOTHING, ya know!!!!
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: HAHAHAHA!! I don't have an IQ of 187 for NOTHING, ya know!!!! Nick

Ah Nick,
Let's not go there.

QUOTE]Originally posted by fierofetish:




[/QUOTE]

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

I noticed an ad for Mythbusters about the plane/treadmill debate. We'll see what
they come up with. Anyone knows when it shows?

quote Originally posted by TennT: I noticed an ad for Mythbusters about the plane/treadmill debate. We'll see what they come up with. Anyone knows when it shows?

The 30th. That's what this whole thread is about.

How many folks will deny the "proof" they offer, no matter how persuasive it is?
Any one want to guess?
tg

quote Originally posted by TennT: How many folks will deny the "proof" they offer, no matter how persuasive it is? Any one want to guess? tg

probably the same percentage as in this thread already?

quote Originally posted by Deabionni: Although, how much do you want to bet that there'll be a reply or thread the day after, telling everybody that the Mythbuster's did the test wrong; and had they done it another way; the plane wouldn't have flown. - Only 6 more days till we get to see that reply/thread.

Why wait?
They tested it wrong.
Just like the episode where they tested a pickup's gas mileage tailgate up vs down.

LOL!

quote Originally posted by blackrams:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GOT ME!!!!!!!
Nick

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Why wait? They tested it wrong. Just like the episode where they tested a pickup's gas mileage tailgate up vs down.

Who didn't know THAT was coming?

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Why wait? They tested it wrong. Just like the episode where they tested a pickup's gas mileage tailgate up vs down.

You win the prize. You get your choice of either "Dumbest Person on the Planet" or "Biggest Troll Ever"

Your choice. Congratulations.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You win the prize. You get your choice of either "Dumbest Person on the Planet" or "Biggest Troll Ever" Your choice. Congratulations.

I thought he admitted it would fly a few pages back. I think he is joking.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Why wait? They tested it wrong. Just like the episode where they tested a pickup's gas mileage tailgate up vs down.

LOL, good thing I wasn't drinking anything or I'd be wiping off my monitor right about now!

BTW, they revisited the pickup tailgate myth using suggested testing methods, and they still ended up with the same results.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I thought he admitted it would fly a few pages back. I think he is joking.

That's ok. The trophies are plastic.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Who didn't know THAT was coming?

Who didn't know THAT was coming?

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Who didn't know THAT was coming?

Gokart, I really don't want to pick on you. You've been provided 11 pages of science, phyisics and evidence from a lot of people who know what they are talking about, including pilots. The likelihood of your accepting results from Mythbusters that would change your mind seems remote. Your choice.

quote Originally posted by Deabionni: LOL, good thing I wasn't drinking anything or I'd be wiping off my monitor right about now! BTW, they revisited the pickup tailgate myth using suggested testing methods, and they still ended up with the same results.

How did that come out?

I made a bet with a co-worker on this subject . He said the people who think the plane will fly don't have enough common sence to wipe thier a$$. I said that he was the one with out the appropriate amount of sence and he said he'd bet me 50 bucks. He kept pestering me about when he was gonna get his 50 bucks. I said be sure to watch mythbusters and try not to be too heartbroken when your paying up. The sad thing is that i work in aviation and about 90% of my co-workers say it will not fly. makes me feel uneasy about flying now LOL !

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: I made a bet with a co-worker on this subject . He said the people who think the plane will fly don't have enough common sence sense to wipe thier a$$. I said that he was the one with out the appropriate amount of sence sense and he said he'd bet me 50 bucks. He kept pestering me about when he was gonna get his 50 bucks. I said be sure to watch mythbusters and try not to be too heartbroken when your paying up. The sad thing is that i work in aviation and about 90% of my co-workers say it will not fly. makes me feel uneasy about flying now LOL !

Does spelling count as common sense?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Gokart, I really don't want to pick on you. You've been provided 11 pages of science, phyisics and evidence from a lot of people who know what they are talking about, including pilots. The likelihood of your accepting results from Mythbusters that would change your mind seems remote. Your choice.

Alot of the 11 pages were my posts. Most of the scientific data I posted largely has been ignored including someone trying to disprove Einstein. Fierofetish has been the only one to give numbers.
I'm not trolling or stupid. I'm trying to get people to come up with accurate data, not just what the consensus says. I've chosen the point of 'prove it won't fly'. Everyone thinks thrust will overcome everything and think I think the tires are powering the plane. One of the many unanswered questions is what is the takeoff distance?

If the treadmill was moving 1.1 times faster than the plane, what would happen?

My statement was a joke if you don't realize it by now. My sense of humor can be dry but a few thought it was funny. Your response was trolling. Who really deserves the prize?

I didn't see the revised test of the tailgate test but did they use a modern truck (wind tunnel tested) or a 30 year old one (when the myth started), fleetside or stepside, long bed or short, standard cab or extended or crew? That's not a bashing question, just there's alot of variables.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Does spelling count as common sense?

Nope ! I never was very good at the written language. LOL But a person who makes a living in the aerospace industry should be able to figure this out. Well at least thats how i see it. Maybe my standards are to high.

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: Nope ! I never was very good at the written language. LOL But a person who makes a living in the aerospace industry should be able to figure this out. Well at least thats how i see it. Maybe my standards are to high.

Actually, spelling would be pretty important in the Aerospace industry. Typos and spelling errors are why the Mars Observer augered into the Martian surface like a lawn dart. (actually, it was a failure to convert from SAE to Metric).

But I'm just busting yer balls. Talking about common sense, and then misspelling it while talking about how other people don't get it - that was too good to pass up.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Alot of the 11 pages were my posts. Most of the scientific data I posted largely has been ignored including someone trying to disprove Einstein. Fierofetish has been the only one to give numbers. I'm not trolling or stupid. I'm trying to get people to come up with accurate data, not just what the consensus says. I've chosen the point of 'prove it won't fly'. Everyone thinks thrust will overcome everything and think I think the tires are powering the plane. One of the many unanswered questions is what is the takeoff distance? If the treadmill was moving 1.1 times faster than the plane, what would happen? My statement was a joke if you don't realize it by now. My sense of humor can be dry but a few thought it was funny. Your response was trolling. Who really deserves the prize? I didn't see the revised test of the tailgate test but did they use a modern truck (wind tunnel tested) or a 30 year old one (when the myth started), fleetside or stepside, long bed or short, standard cab or extended or crew? That's not a bashing question, just there's alot of variables.

It took me a while to realize that was probably your point of view, ( prove it ), although I suspected you were playing devil's advocate quite sooner.
It has made people think how to phrase their positions, which didn't really hurt anyone.
I don't think you need tensor calculus to prove or disprove and idea, though.
It gets me when someone comes up with all these implausible scenarios and want a proof.
Long treadmills, motors capable of running/accelerating long treadmills, frictionless surfaces, etc.
Conjectures can be entertaining and educational but not often productive within their context.

[This message has been edited by TennT (edited 01-26-2008).]

We just found out yesterday, that our cable won't be installed till next weekend, so we won't be able to watch that episode on the 30th.

quote Originally posted by Deabionni: We just found out yesterday, that our cable won't be installed till next weekend, so we won't be able to watch that episode on the 30th.

There is no doubt in my mind that it will hit YouTube within minutes and you'll be able to see it right here.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

Ya its on wedne nite. I guess well see what the specifics are for the test. I still think Im misunderstanding something. No matter how many times I read it, it still says to me the treadmill is comptr controlled to stop any forward movement no matter how much power the engine has. Maybe there isnt a treadmill on earth than can keep up, but then its mostly a hypothetical thing anyway where anything is possible. Now if there going to use a treadmill with say 100 hp max, sooner or later in reallity it wont be able to keep up and keep the plane itself stationary which makes the whole 'keep it still' thing a moot point.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: There is no doubt in my mind that it will hit YouTube within minutes and you'll be able to see it right here.

That's what I'm hoping for, but I know I'll eventually catch it on a rerun.

nevermind

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 01-26-2008).]