Far from it, Patrick. And I don't care if you disagree or if it offended your tender sensibilities. In fact, if you'd been paying attention, I reiterated it when I said I don't mind it when stupid people do stupid things to themselves. This wasn't a failure of society, and it wasn't a failure of the legal system - it was evolutionary unsuitability, as is all suicide. We all have rough points in our lives - stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop feeling sorry for others; pick up and move on. The world does not and will not care about your sob story that people said mean things about you or that your mommy wouldn't buy you a cell phone, purse, or Nikes. Kids will find something about you to tease no matter what you do, so you have two choices: dish it back, or suck it up.
The other side to which I'm referring is the side of the people who created the Josh character. Two sides to every story, truth is somewhere in between -and we have only heard one side of it.
Now stop trolling for a fight and contribute some worthy discourse. This isn't intended to be personal, but if you want to make it that way then take it to PM.
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04:35 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39179 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
In fact, if you'd been paying attention, I reiterated it when I said I don't mind it when stupid people do stupid things to themselves. This wasn't a failure of society, and it wasn't a failure of the legal system - it was evolutionary unsuitability, as is all suicide. We all have rough points in our lives - stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop feeling sorry for others; pick up and move on.
Seriously, how old are you?
Judging from the fact you're so sure of yourself and your dogmatic opinion, I'd say you're under 25.
Most of us who are old enough to reflect on our youth understand that as we mature, we "know" less and less.
I also find that I have less & less answers. I used to have ways to FIX IT ALL. Now, the older I get, the more complicated the problems seem. How did I miss all the intricacies when I was younger?!
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06:06 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
Far from it, Patrick. And I don't care if you disagree or if it offended your tender sensibilities. In fact, if you'd been paying attention, I reiterated it when I said I don't mind it when stupid people do stupid things to themselves. This wasn't a failure of society, and it wasn't a failure of the legal system - it was evolutionary unsuitability, as is all suicide. We all have rough points in our lives - stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop feeling sorry for others; pick up and move on. The world does not and will not care about your sob story that people said mean things about you or that your mommy wouldn't buy you a cell phone, purse, or Nikes. Kids will find something about you to tease no matter what you do, so you have two choices: dish it back, or suck it up.
The other side to which I'm referring is the side of the people who created the Josh character. Two sides to every story, truth is somewhere in between -and we have only heard one side of it.
Now stop trolling for a fight and contribute some worthy discourse. This isn't intended to be personal, but if you want to make it that way then take it to PM.
Did ya ever see that classic Twilightzone The Obsolete Man? That was great. You remind me of the chancellor.
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06:11 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39179 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I also find that I have less & less answers. I used to have ways to FIX IT ALL. Now, the older I get, the more complicated the problems seem. How did I miss all the intricacies when I was younger?!
Exactly. It all seemed so much simpler when we were young.
Originally posted by Patrick: Pretty difficult to discuss much of anything if one has no age.
The girl was 13.. I figure anyone from that age up to about 20ish would be a perfect subject to discuss the topic. Older folks seem to be more world and generally wise. So again I dont see how your age query would make any difference in the topic other than for you to use it as some form of leverage to win the argument... or something.
quote
Most of us who are old enough to reflect on our youth understand that as we mature, we "know" less and less.
Not necessarily trun.. unless you are speaking from experience yourself.
Myself, I don't view age as a wisdom meter. I've met 25 year olds that if I turned the keyboard over to them you wouldn't even know the difference between us. Kinda gives me hope for America.... and youth.
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06:14 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39179 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Originally posted by JazzMan: I'm guessing in his early teens, mentally if not physically. Most children don't become "adult" until they start to comprehend the basics of compassion, that's a learned human behavior trait that mostly only comes with maturity.
JazzMan
One would love to believe that to be true, that the older one gets the more compassionate one becomes. Must be why most serial killers are middle age. Ted Bundy, and Jeffy weren't mental teenagers by any stretch. Child murderers aren't exactly plentiful either which would leave one to believe it is the 20 something crew flush with hormones. Which would be the perfect subject.
What the hell does age have to do with anything in this discussion? NOTHING!
This reminds me off attacking a spelling mistake like it somehow erases the points made by the poster. It is in fact an admission of nothing worthwhile to add. The sad fact, and I repeat SAD FACT is that SHE killed herself.
Even God does not pity weak people that take their own lives! They go directly to hell,,,,, if you believe that stuff anyways.
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12:07 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39179 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Hasn't your perspective on life changed as you've gotten older? Hmmm, that might explain a few things...
Hmmm, I suppose you think that is very funny, heh, talk about needing to grow up. Typical, somebody does not agree with you so there must be something wrong with them.
Of course my perspective has changed! I am far less likely to feel sorry for people that now that I am older am wise enough to see have brought their misery upon themselves.
Originally posted by Red88FF: Of course my perspective has changed! I am far less likely to feel sorry for people that now that I am older am wise enough to see have brought their misery upon themselves.
Magnificent! I couldn't have said it better myself.
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01:24 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Of course my perspective has changed! I am far less likely to feel sorry for people that now that I am older am wise enough to see have brought their misery upon themselves.
I agree with you, if we're talking about adults. Many do bring their own misfortune upon themselves, or find ways to sustain it. But I find it awfully hard (OK, impossible) to apply that same standard to a 13 year old.
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01:29 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I think there should be separate laws for the different classes of people. Maybe even make things easier for the rest of us to endure the lower classes. We could eliminate a lot of them at birth if we could institute some sort of test to determine their future mental function. What a wonderful world we could make. Together we can divide the masses.
[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 11-28-2007).]
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01:41 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by GT86: I agree with you, if we're talking about adults. Many do bring their own misfortune upon themselves, or find ways to sustain it. But I find it awfully hard (OK, impossible) to apply that same standard to a 13 year old.
Not meant as a blanket statement at all. Sometimes there are just F'ed up people (bad eggs) or kids that come from a less fortunate background, but in this case sounds like a middle class family, and if a kid can't make it there?
I am NOT saying this story isn't very sad. I guess the point is that we cannot and must not bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator in the futile hope of trying to save the unsavable.
This poor kid had OBVIOUS mental problems and should not have been mixing with the general populace,,,, obviously, this was proven by her actions.
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01:44 PM
PFF
System Bot
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by Red88FF: I guess the point is that we cannot and must not bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator in the futile hope of trying to save the unsavable.
I understand where you're coming from, and in fact have argued that point myself from time to time. But the dark underside to that is this: who gets to decide who is savable and who is not? When does someone sink to the point of becoming a futile waste of effort, and what are the criteria for determining this?
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01:51 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by GT86: I understand where you're coming from, and in fact have argued that point myself from time to time. But the dark underside to that is this: who gets to decide who is savable and who is not? When does someone sink to the point of becoming a futile waste of effort, and what are the criteria for determining this?
Well, in this case it would be the parents and the councilor, they fell down on the job! not the rest of us. Unfortunately all to often we make this judgment after the fact, of course because that is when we hear about it. My point was simply not to save everybody at everyone else's expense.
OK, of course this is hypothetical but what if she had made it through this particular personal crisis and in a few years had a similar experience and simply taken her fathers guns to school and started shooting everybody because,,, O'my she had been teased or dumped cruelly by her boy friend or just plane shunned by everyone because they thought she was a weirdo? hey, this has happened and where was all the concern for the mentally unstable teen then? I hate to say it but at least she chose to strike out at her self instead of the rest of society
Bad things happen and the we must prevent this from happening again at all costs attitude is extremely dangerous.
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02:11 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Well, in this case it would be the parents and the councilor, they fell down on the job! not the rest of us. Unfortunately all to often we make this judgment after the fact, of course because that is when we hear about it. My point was simply not to save everybody at everyone else's expense.
OK, of course this is hypothetical but what if she had made it through this particular personal crisis and in a few years had a similar experience and simply taken her fathers guns to school and started shooting everybody because,,, O'my she had been teased or dumped cruelly by her boy friend or just plane shunned by everyone because they thought she was a weirdo? hey, this has happened and where was all the concern for the mentally unstable teen then? I hate to say it but at least she chose to strike out at her self instead of the rest of society
Bad things happen and the we must prevent this from happening again at all costs attitude is extremely dangerous.
After reading above, I was hit with a flash.
Have our Children become too self-importent?
"No one likes me, so i'll kill myself." "Everyone thinks i'm a loser, so i'll kill them all."
I don't remember that, from back-in-the-day.
In highschool, I was a nobody. No friends, poor clothing, not smart, smelled like a woodstove in a gas-fired world. I got targeted, and harrassed plenty. I LIVED rejection. I was an expert marksman, with plenty of guns. I never thought about offing myself or anyone else. And I REALLY got sad & pissed, sometimes.
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02:38 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
Says the video is no longer available. I find that so fitting. .
Exactly. "The State has deemed the video ob-so-lete."
"You walk into this room at your own risk, because it leads to the future, not a future that will be but one that might be. This is not a new world, it is simply an extension of what began in the old one. It has patterned itself after every dictator who has ever planted the ripping imprint of a boot on the pages of history since the beginning of time. It has refinements, technological advancements, and a more sophisticated approach to the destruction of human freedom. But like every one of the super states that preceded it, it has one iron rule: logic is an enemy and truth is a menace. This is Mr. Romney Wordsworth, in his last forty-eight hours on Earth. He's a citizen of the State but will soon have to be eliminated, because he's built out of flesh and because he has a mind. Mr. Romney Wordsworth, who will draw his last breaths—in the Twilight Zone."
"The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete, but so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of man, that state is obsolete. A case to be filed under "M" for mankind—in the Twilight Zone."
Remind you of anything?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-28-2007).]
No. This girl took her own life. Nobody here, including me, has suggested anything like the fascism this story describes. Way off base. If you've got a point to make, just state it. Is relying on some arcane reference to a 46-year-old TV show to make your point for you the best you can do?
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06:29 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
No. This girl took her own life. Nobody here, including me, has suggested anything like the fascism this story describes. Way off base. If you've got a point to make, just state it. Is relying on some arcane reference to a 46-year-old TV show to make your point for you the best you can do?
LOL!!! So now being old is the problem! Maybe that proves that the younger you are the more you know.
Chancellor please forgive my arrogance. Let me state this plainly. If you don't get the point then we are not even talking about the same things. I do understand your point and all that go with it. It won't seem off base to you forever.
I offer you this quote to ponder.
quote
Originally posted by GT86:
I understand where you're coming from, and in fact have argued that point myself from time to time. But the dark underside to that is this: who gets to decide who is savable and who is not? When does someone sink to the point of becoming a futile waste of effort, and what are the criteria for determining this?
[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 11-28-2007).]
OK, of course this is hypothetical but what if she had made it through this particular personal crisis and in a few years had a similar experience and simply taken her fathers guns to school and started shooting everybody because,,, O'my she had been teased or dumped cruelly by her boy friend or just plane shunned by everyone because they thought she was a weirdo? hey, this has happened and where was all the concern for the mentally unstable teen then? I hate to say it but at least she chose to strike out at her self instead of the rest of society
Bad things happen and the we must prevent this from happening again at all costs attitude is extremely dangerous.
I don't think it's fair to speculate on what may have happened in the future. Really, we're all capable of being pushed to some inner breaking point, and we're all capable of horrendous actions when that breaking point is reached. Should we all (everyone of us) check in for psychiatric evaluation and monitoring because at some point we may present a threat to ourselves or others?
quote
Originally posted by Red88FF: Bad things happen and the we must prevent this from happening again at all costs attitude is extremely dangerous.
I agree, sometimes things can't be prevented or fixed. People are born all the time with physical defects; a good example would be Joseph Merrick (the Elephant Man). There was nothing that could be done to fix his physical condition. And by the same token, some people are born with mental abnormalities that may prevent them from leading a "normal" life. Physical defects are easy to see, and even some mental problems like retardation or Down's Syndrome are readily apparent. But damaged or missing psychological elements can remain hidden for a long time, and may never become a factor until certain circumstances combine to expose the problem. By the time the problem is visible, it may be too late.
But it's really a dangerous path we're on if we simply start assuming there's nothing that can be done. That attitude basically says that because we're destined to fail at times, we should therefore not make the effort at all. I'm sorry, but I just don't think we can (or should) write people off that easily.
[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 11-29-2007).]
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02:59 AM
PFF
System Bot
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
The mother that helped create the "fake boy" has now been indicted:
quote
LOS ANGELES - A Missouri woman was indicted Thursday for her alleged role in perpetrating a hoax on the online social network MySpace against a 13-year-old neighbor who committed suicide. ADVERTISEMENT click here
Lori Drew, 49, of suburban St. Louis, who allegedly helped create a MySpace account in the name of someone who didn't exist to convince Megan Meier she was chatting with a 16-year-old boy named Josh Evans, was charged with conspiracy and fraudulently gaining access to someone else's computer.
Megan hanged herself at home in October 2006, allegedly after receiving a dozen or more cruel messages, including one stating the world would be better off without her.
Salvador Hernandez, assistant agent in charge of the Los Angeles FBI office, called the case heart-rending.
"The Internet is a world unto itself. People must know how far they can go before they must stop. They exploited a young girl's weaknesses," Hernandez said. "Whether the defendant could have foreseen the results, she's responsible for her actions."
Drew was indicted by a federal grand jury on one count of conspiracy and three counts of accessing protected computers without authorization to get information used to inflict emotional distress on the girl.
Drew has denied creating the account or sending messages to Megan.
Dean Steward, a lawyer representing Drew in the federal case, said a legal challenge to the charges was being planned. He characterized them as unusual and puzzling.
"We thought when prosecutors in St. Louis looked at the case and all the facts, it was clear no criminal acts occurred," Steward said.
A man who opened the door at the Drew family home in Dardenne Prairie, Mo., on Thursday said the family had no comment.
Megan's mother, Tina Meier, told The Associated Press she believed media reports and public outrage helped move the case forward for prosecution.
"I'm thrilled that this woman is going to face charges that she has needed to face since the day we found out what was going on, and since the day she decided to be a part of this entire ridiculous stunt," she said.
Megan's father, Ron Meier, 38, said he began to cry "tears of joy" when he heard of the indictment. The parents are now separated, which Tina Meier has said stemmed in part from the circumstances of their daughter's death.
Tina Meier has acknowledged Megan was too young to have a MySpace account under the Web site's guidelines, but she said she had been able to closely monitor the account. Meier's family has also acknowledged that Megan was also sending mean messages before her death.
Megan was being treated for attention deficit disorder and depression, her family has said. Meier has said Drew knew Megan was on medication.
MySpace issued a statement saying it "does not tolerate cyberbullying" and was cooperating fully with the U.S. attorney.
U.S. Attorney Thomas P. O'Brien said this was the first time the federal statute on accessing protected computers has been used in a social-networking case. It has been used in the past to address hacking.
"This was a tragedy that did not have to happen," O'Brien said at a Los Angeles press conference.
Both the girl and MySpace are named as victims in the case, he said.
Rebecca Lonergan, a former federal prosecutor who now teaches law at the University of Southern California, said use of the federal cyber crime statute may be open to challenge.
Lonergan, who used the statute in the past to file charges in computer hacking and trademark theft cases, said the crimes covered by the law involve obtaining information from a computer, not sending messages out to harrass someone.
"Here it is the flow of information away from the computer," she said. "It's a very creative, aggressive use of the statute. But they may have a legally tough time meeting the elements."
She said, however, that because "a very bad harm was done," the courts may grant some latitude.
MySpace is a subsidiary of Beverly Hills-based Fox Interactive Media Inc., which is owned by News Corp. The indictment noted that MySpace computer servers are located in Los Angeles County.
Due to juvenile privacy rules, the U.S. attorney's office said, the indictment refers to the girl as M.T.M.
FBI agents in St. Louis and Los Angeles investigated the case, Hernandez said.
Each of the four counts carries a maximum possible penalty of five years in prison.
Federal officials said Drew will be arraigned in St. Louis and moved to Los Angeles for trial. Her lawyer, however, said Drew did not have to surrender in Missouri but would be arraigned in early June in Los Angeles.
The indictment says MySpace members agree to abide by terms of service that include, among other things, not promoting information they know to be false or misleading; soliciting personal information from anyone under age 18 and not using information gathered from the Web site to "harass, abuse or harm other people."
Drew and others who were not named conspired to violate the service terms from about September 2006 to mid-October that year, according to the indictment. It alleges they registered as a MySpace member under a phony name and used the account to obtain information on the girl.
Drew and her coconspirators "used the information obtained over the MySpace computer system to torment, harass, humiliate, and embarrass the juvenile MySpace member," the indictment charged.
The indictment contends they committed or aided in a dozen "overt acts" that were illegal, including using a photograph of a boy that was posted without his knowledge or permission.
They used "Josh" to flirt with Megan, telling her she was "sexi," the indictment charged.
Around Oct. 7, 2006, Megan was told "Josh" was moving away, prompting the girl to write: "aww sexi josh ur so sweet if u moved back u could see me up close and personal lol."
Several days later, "Josh" urged the girl to call and added: "i love you so much."
But on or about Oct. 16, "Josh" wrote to the girl and told her "in substance, that the world would be a better place without M.T.M. in it," according to the indictment.
The girl hanged herself the same day, and Drew and the others deleted the information in the account, the indictment said.
Last month, an employee of Drew, 19-year-old Ashley Grills, told ABC's "Good Morning America" she created the false MySpace profile but Drew wrote some of the messages to Megan.
Grills said Drew suggested talking to Megan via the Internet to find out what Megan was saying about Drew's daughter, who was a former friend.
Grills also said she wrote the message to Megan about the world being a better place without her. The message was supposed to end the online relationship with "Josh" because Grills felt the joke had gone too far.
"I was trying to get her angry so she would leave him alone and I could get rid of the whole MySpace," Grills told the morning show.
Megan's death was investigated by Missouri authorities, but no state charges were filed because no laws appeared to apply to the case.
___
Associated Press Writers Greg Risling in Los Angeles, Betsy Taylor in St. Louis and Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington, D.C., contributed to this report.
The mother that helped create the "fake boy" has now been indicted:
GOOD.
I can't comprehend for the life of me how an ADULT could think it was a good idea to make up a FAKE identity to FOOL a CHILD and gain inside information on her!!! And to let other kids that child's age have access to it as well?!?! What did this girl do to bring on such HATEFUL, vile, spiteful treatment?!
God, I can't believe that...That woman is on the fast-track to hell, I can tell you that.
Ugh, this world is full of sickos!
------------------ ~Michael Project IMSA Formula Coming Soon! '85 GT 4sp white - SOLD | | '85 2M6 Auto red - SOLD | | '84 2M4 bare chassis - SOLD Crap, I'm out of Fieros! Time to buy another!! - "Your mileage may vary."
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02:33 AM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I don't think I like where the precedent could take us but I am glad this ***** will be judged
It does leave the door open for all manner of possibilities, perhaps so much that even forums like PFF could see changes, but it also should be addressed--all the way to the high courts. Children, especially those with mental illnesses have to be protected. Whether all that burden lies with the child's parents or not is about to be decided I suspect. People on the internet are real people--not just usernames.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-16-2008).]
Originally posted by maryjane:People on the internet are real people--not just usernames.
A-men!! I think this is where a lot of these people get into trouble...They're not aware how seriously their words and/or actions online may affect others.
I have 3 kids, and NONE of them - including my 16yr old - have ANY kind of internet account. If they need to use the computer for anything, they have to ask me, tell what they need it for, and are supervised fairly closely while they use it. No, I don't hover over their shoulder, but they can't just log on whenever they want, like when I'm not home, and get into crap like this.
Allowing children (even HS'ers) free reign of today's internet is just plain ignorant - and it can be very dangerous. Assuming they don't run into pron, predators, drug dealers or prostitutes (those last 2 are the fastest growing e-industries right now) they will still crap up your computer with all kinds of adware and garbage.
Heck, I've even had a member on this site recently threaten to drive from a neighboring state to come kick my arse, lol! It's funny when it's me, but if that were my kids being threatened, there would be hell to pay.
The internet is full of stupid and dangerous people, and it's just simply no place for children.
Originally posted by maryjane: Children, especially those with mental illnesses have to be protected. Whether all that burden lies with the child's parents or
Or? There is no Or. Since when is it mine or anyone elses responsibility to look after the mental health of your kid online? When you say protected you're really saying "Raise my kid for me Government, thanks."
Or? There is no Or. Since when is it mine or anyone elses responsibility to look after the mental health of your kid online? When you say protected you're really saying "Raise my kid for me Government, thanks."
I think what's worse is, that most kids these days don't seem to have any coping skills. Parents are so over-protective and coddling that kids never really learn how to deal with disappointment or pain. Yes, I know this particular child was supposedly mentally impaired, but apparently she was functional enough to have a myspace page, and pursue a relationship, even if it was with a figment of her imagination. That sort of suggests to me she would also be capable of LEARNING coping skills. But, obviously, she was never taught those things. I know parents want to protect their kids, but I think it's become absurd. Parents whose lives revolve around their kids, and do everything they can to make sure their kids never have to endure any hardships or inconvenience aren't doing them any favors. One day, they'll have to face the world, and they will be completely unprepared when they get a bloody nose or hurt feelings and mommy isn't there to fix it. I don't care if it was an adult who helped to perpetrate this or not, children and adults alike, people can be F'ing mean. Get over it, that's what happens when you live in a free society, that means some people are free to be a-holes. Sadly though, we're creating a society that rather than teaching kids to be tough in the face of such adversity, teaches them nothing about how to deal with it. If this child had been taught some coping skills, she would be alive today. I blame the parents, as I'd bet the house that they coddled and catered to this child. You can't protect your children forever, some day, they have to be able to stand up for themselves. If you don't teach them, the world will, over and over and over, until your children learn, or until it ends in tragedy.
So it will now cost Americans a few hundred thousand tax dollars to first convict then house this criminal for several years and in addition to that more governmental intrusion into cyberspace and sends a message to parents, it's okay to allow your mentally unstable kids to run wild and free on the net, big brother will track them and take care of them FOR YOU.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 05-16-2008).]
