Just came in the house from welding a new battery tray into my silver GT, and sat down at the computer to read PFF and relax.

It is really unfortunate that debates on topics like this so often degenerate into ad hominem attacks on individuals. I had been looking forward to a spirited discussion and debate on this subject, but all I got was an entire day's posts of people bickering at each other (and this lousy T-shirt) instead of discussing the issue. Thanks to those who took a good shot at it though.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Brad, from previous threads over the years I know you're a decent guy. This whole thread is just plain ugly. It started with a sad news event, and it's gone downhill from there. I just get so sick of the phoney macho bravado posted by some of the people here. Makes me wonder sometimes about the future of the human race...

I try to be decent, but I often fall short of the mark. And yeah, it's kind of an ugly thread, but it was an ugly subject to begin with. I don't think I'm being macho about it; as a matter of fact as a parent it saddens and disturbs me more than I can put into words.

What I took issue with was the fact that some seemed to be trying to place the blame where it doesn't belong. I'm not even trying to blame the girl in this case, even though she was the one that took the ultimate action. I really don't believe she was thinking clearly or rationally at the time.

But sometimes horrible things happen, and there's no one to blame. It's part of our nature to place blame, probably because we think every problem has a solution and if we're smart enough we can prevent these things. I really believe though that sometimes things happen and there is no real blame, and no solution. That's probably more disturbing to us than anything else, the realization that there are just some things we can't prevent, alter or control.

quote Originally posted by GT86: But sometimes horrible things happen, and there's no one to blame. It's part of our nature to place blame, probably because we think every problem has a solution and if we're smart enough we can prevent these things. I really believe though that sometimes things happen and there is no real blame, and no solution. That's probably more disturbing to us than anything else, the realization that there are just some things we can't prevent, alter or control.

Blame would not be the right word. Blame denotes passing the buck, to me. Perhaps it seems like I am splitting hairs but there are reasons for everything. I work in a dangerous occupation, one hit hard with injuries and lawsuits. We are now taught that all accidents are preventable. At first, this theory was met with skepticism by me. I came to realize that all things can indeed be prevented, altered, or controlled by someone. In this case by a few different people.
In my occupation, all injuries and near miss injuries are investigated. A Root Cause/Root Analysis is what it is called. It is part of a process that helps us become smart enough to prevent these things (as you stated). I am not stupid. It really is to place blame away from the company. It is a tool I have come to appreciate in my personal life. That and the JSA (job safety analysis). Where you list every step of your action (job), list the possible hazards, and actions to eliminate or minimize the hazzard.
Instead of blame, I would use the word responsibility. Perhaps it again seems like I am splitting hairs. Perhaps I am. I see responsibility for this tragedy in a few areas. I see malicious responsibility on the part of the parties that created the fake account and feel as though they should be liable criminally and civilly. I hear that they are getting death threats and bricks have been thrown thru their windows. That is wrong but I have no sympathy for their plight. Other than stopping the unlawful actions.
Megan, may you find the tranquillity in the after life that you sought. RIP, .

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-21-2007).]

Why not blame MySpace? Should sites like that require an adult register before a child is accepted as a member and given rights to create a page?
I don't think the Government should get involved but I do think MySpace should, being responsible is only as good as the weakest link. They provide a service and receive money for advertisements, ok its a business that enabled this to happen.

I wouldn't blame MySpace. This could have just as easily happened over email or by pen pals. Do you want adult supervision before a minor is allowed a mailing address?

Why not? Too much trouble to monitor it? I would have thought it was less trouble than your child dying, or being 'groomed'..Have you seen the unbelievable rubbish and filth that comes through most email boxes, unsolicited? Whilst a child is still legally the responsibility of a parent, they must accept that responsibility, IWHT...What is the point of having a watershed of adult content on TV, when they are going to be subjected to it anyway, via the Internet? When I was a kid (I know, I know ), I was allowed to listen to the radio on fridays and saturdays, to 'pop' music. After homework and chores were done. I don´t feel deprived of anything as a result .Let the child have supervised access at a specific time. It is called discipline, for BOTH parties.Three words that are sadly missing today, in many cases; Responsibility, disciplne, and respect. Without that ' grease', the system we call Society won´t function..and I have seen it more and more nowadays.
Yeah, I know..'it was much better in OUR time.. ...and it was!!!
Nick

quote Originally posted by crazyd: It is really unfortunate that debates on topics like this so often degenerate into ad hominem attacks on individuals.

You are crazy...

Disclaimer:
If crazy killes himself I'm not responsible... Nor is PFF... for that matter. I gave him the ammo, the gun, showed him how to use it but never mentioned suicide NOR do I recomend it.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-21-2007).]

What's really unfortunate is that Bill is at the center of all of these threads that degrade and tries to deflect the degrading of a thread on everyone else.


I don't see a post from Phranc or me until this one right now, so I don't want to hear one peep or fart from you about what I stated. The truth is in this thread.

quote Originally posted by aceman: What's really unfortunate is that Bill is at the center of all of these threads that degrade and tries to deflect the degrading of a thread on everyone else. I don't see a post from Phranc or me until this one right now, so I don't want to hear one peep or fart from you about what I stated. The truth is in this thread.

quit rattleing his cage, you troll!!!

quote Originally posted by spaceman: What's really unfortunate is that Bill WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!.

Yet another work of art reply from the goon squad of mental midgets proving beyond a shadow of a doubt they are impervious to assult and innocent as new born BABIES.

^^^DEFLECTION^^^

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yet another work of art reply from the goon squad of mental midgets proving beyond a shadow of a doubt they are impervious to assult and innocent as new born BABIES.

Did you read that on myspace?

quote Originally posted by GT86: I don't think I'm being macho about it...

Brad, just in case there's any confusion here, I was talking to you and not about you.

In regards to assigning "blame" in this girl's death, my posts didn't even touch upon that. I'm just so disgusted that several people in this thread have coldly dismissed her suicide as something inevitable and acceptable since she was such a "weakling". Chryst, she was just a child of 13 years of age...

And lets see what have you contributed to this thread.

quote Originally posted by spaceman: What's really unfortunate is that Bill is at the center of all of these threads that degrade and tries to deflect the degrading of a thread on everyone else. I don't see a post from Phranc or me until this one right now, so I don't want to hear one peep or fart from you about what I stated. The truth is in this thread.

/\/\/\/\ bullshit /\/\/\/\

quote Originally posted by loserman: ^^^DEFLECTION^^^

/\/\/\/\ X 2 /\/\/\/\

I pointed out and contributed that it is YOU, Bill, that degrades the thread. Not anyone else that you always try to blame.

I personally have no interest in this thread. I just stumbled on it today and read three pages of your typical whining bullshit and merely pointed out that Phranc nor I were posting in this thread and you still manage to degrade it to another trash can candidate.

So Bill.............STFU! There are numerous people in this thread that believe that you Shutting the F Up would be more than enough for Thanksgiving.

Good Day, Bill!

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 11-21-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Brad, just in case there's any confusion here, I was talking to you and not about you. In regards to assigning "blame" in this girl's death, my posts didn't even touch upon that. I'm just so disgusted that several people in this thread have coldly dismissed her suicide as something inevitable and acceptable since she was such a "weakling". Chryst, she was just a child of 13 years of age...

Patrick, I didn't think you were directing it at me, it's just that I needed to stop and think for a minute if that statement could have applied to me. And back at you, I wasn't trying to imply that you were placing blame, just that some in this thread had.

I don't think her suicide was inevitable, but I do think that for whatever reason, she was a vulnerable girl who had a weakness somewhere in her psyche. That's not meant as an insult; we all have weaknesses of some sort. Unfortunately, hers was much more severe than many. And even more unfortunate, circumstances lined up in such a way as to breach that particular weakness.

What scares me is that a seemingly minor incident was able to cause that breach, and cause her to want to take her life. I have 3 young children, and I stay involved in their lives and try to provide positive guidance for them. And as far as I can tell, they are happy, well-adjusted kids. But part of me can't help but wonder if I'm missing something, that maybe something like this could happen to them, and that they would respond the same way.

quote Originally posted by GT86: What scares me is that a seemingly minor incident was able to cause that breach, and cause her to want to take her life.

Well Brad, as I've stated earlier in this thread, we have no idea what else might've been going on in her life.

I suppose I might be a little more sensitive to this story than other members here because I've heard some gawd awful stories from my girlfriend. She's a psychiatrist and it's unbelievable what some of her patients were forced to endure during their childhood. Some adults are sick twisted animals who should have absolutely no contact with any children, including their own.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-22-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Well Brad, as I've stated earlier in this thread, we have no idea what else might've been going on in her life.

That's very true. This may have been the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, or it may have just been a single overwhelming incident. We'll likely never know the full story.

But what I meant was that this problem, whether it pushed her over the top by itself or in conjunction with other things, is what caused her defenses to fail. I guess sometimes life is sustained by a very tenuous thread, and while the rational part of me understands that fact, it can be frightening when it's very abruptly demonstrated.

quote Originally posted by spaceboy: I pointed out and contributed that it is YOU, Bill, that degrades the thread. Not anyone else that you always try to blame.

Excuse me but how can I hijack my own thread you trolling flamelit worthless douche!

quote I personally have no interest in this thread except to hijack it and troll. So Bill............. Waaahhhh waaaahhhh STFU! Waaahhhh waaaahhhh STFU! and Waaahhhh waaaahhhh STFU!

Says it all.. Space is right because he tells everyone who disagrees with him to stfu

quote Good Day, Bill!

About the only thing positive you contributed to this thread... and many others.... Troll on spacedouche.

An please grow the **** up

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-22-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: She's a psychiatrist and it's unbelievable what some of her patients were forced to endure during their childhood.

We were just talking about that very thing at work lastnight.
How some adults have become addicted to rehashing their childhood at the psychiatrist, in a attempt to make their adult life better.
It kind of reminds me of trying to see how much better their lives could be, if they could just relive their childhood over.
For me, it is what it is, and it was what it was.
We will ALWAYS see how stuff in the past could have been done better.
Where do people get the idea that parents knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and were incapable of mistakes, or didnot have their OWN mental & life issues to deal with.
They were only doing what they knew to do, or thought was, figuring it out along the way.
They were just young people, falliable.

Although my childhood was non-abusive (unless you count being worked long hours to make my Father money, so that he may look rich), it was fairly loveless in words & actions.
To my Mother, we were a burden, and a constant reminder to her that her youth had been stolen from her.
To my Father, we were a money-draining pains in the ass, unless we were engaged in one of his endeviours.
But, in my opinion, we were not mistreated.
We knew where we stood, and the lack of "substansive" love seemed fairly natural, in a genetic kind of way.
The result was that we became VERY independant at a VERY early age.
I was FULLY prepared for life at 14, and was out on my own supporting myself.

The downside to the above upbringing?
I cannot make any kind of "solid" emotional commitment.
What I mean by that, is if someone leaves my life, it does not affect me hardly at all.
I can sign someone off, at the drop of a hat.
It doesn't mean i'm a quiter, (although, after a certain point is reached, I am) it's just that when someone or something makes it clear that they or it wants to "break away" from me, I desolve all ties in my heart immediatly & compleatly, with little to no hate or sorrow. And it's not even an effort to do so. I can actually PHYSICLLY feel it happen. It feels like a door slamming shut. It could almost be described as feeling "good".
Now weather that can be considered a "problem" in being a well-adjusted human being, I don't know.

But do I think rehashing all that with a psychiatrist will make me happier, more positivley productive individual today?
I doubt it.
Becouse none of those past "issues" are "unresolved".
I resolved them from within, not from without.
No, none of us kids have talked about how we felt or feel about our upbringing with our parents.
The answer would be, "Well, it wasn't THAT bad. You're still alive, after all these years!".
Which is true.
And, what would be the point?
Can they take it back?
Say "I'm sorry"?
"I was just doing the best I knew how.".
"It wasn't like that at all!".
"I'm sorry you feel you had such a lousy childhood."
How does any of that make me a better person, TODAY?

I think more people just need to resolve those issues within themselves.
"It is what it is, and it was what it was."
Hold no grudges from the past that affect the here and now.
Becouse you can NEVER change where you come from, no matter HOW MUCH you rehash it.
You can only change where you are going.
Blaming the past for your future, IS no future.
Drop the shizz, let it go, and move on.
Don't need no psychiatrist for that.

Right?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-22-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Drop the shizz, let it go, and move on. Don't need no psychiatrist for that. Right?

Wrong.

Boonie, as much as I sometimes feel the same way (to a degree) as yourself on this topic, it isn't as simple as what you're trying to make it out to be.

In layman's terms, some people have been "programmed" from childhood to respond to a certain stimulus in a particular manner. In many situations this programmed behavior was self-inflicted, as this was the only way these people could cope with and survive the horrors they were forced to endure while growing up.

Simply telling these people to suck it up and move on with their lives is an unrealistic, and quite frankly, an ignorant way to try and deal with the problem.

quote Originally posted by GT86: I think it's tragic this girl died, but she took her own life, I'd say she made that decision. Yes, those people posing as a friend were wrong to do so, and caused her to have a trust crisis. But really, don't we all go through similar issues of trust as children, or even as adults? I had 2 kids pretend to be my friend back in the day because I had an Atari 2600. Found out later they didn't like me and only came over to play the games. Bummed me out, but I didn't kill myself. Don't we all have days where we feel as if we're alone, misunderstood and used? Most of us don't kill ourselves over trivial issues. What if her "friend" had been real, and decided he didn't want to be her friend anymore? And what if she had killed herself over it? Would he be to blame? As I said, it's a horrible thing that this girl felt the need to kill herself. But the reality is that life is full of disappointment and misplaced trust. It's something that we all have to deal with, and it doesn't appear as if she was built to handle that. She was willing to kill herself over a MySpace lie, chances are it was only a matter of time before something shook her enough to commit suicide. I'm not saying the world is better off with her gone, or that other people acted wisely. In fact, the bigger tragedy is that we can't identify and possibly cure more people that have these issues. But I don't think blame for her actions should be placed on others. And the Hitler comparison is over the top, you can do better than that. When you invoke Hitler or the Nazi's in general, any valid points you may have are instantly overshadowed and the discussion tends to devolve into the sewer rapidly.

quote By cruel and unusaul and she did the six billion remaining survivors of humanity a small favor. Thanks Megan, from all of us.

I agree the remark about Hitler does stir more trouble than it is worth but the infancy of context is there.

The girl was troubled and vulnerable. Excusing the behavior that ultimately pushed her out of control is simply not right. Thanking her for killing herself is simply horrific.
To say she did us a favor by killing herself implies his view is that there is a point where people don't deserve to live with people that do. She isn't a convicted murderer or a criminal on death row already deemed to be a detriment to society. She was a 13 year old with problems under the responsibility of adults. The adults failed her. She is dead. She did nothing except suffer so greatly that death was her only recourse in her mind.
So thanks Megan from all of us.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Reading pretty far into that aren't you pokey? I don't believe he said she "deserved to die" anywhere in his post.. perhaps you could quote his words instead of twisting them beyond all recognition?

Bill I didn't change his words? I quoted his whole post.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Ohh... and I dont like you anymore.. Not only dont I like you any more but you're retarded too.. and broke down old gimp of a man. So go leap off a bridge and take a long walk on a short pier.. ya wimp. I spose I'll wake up tomorrow and be jailed for "attempted murder" before my first cup of coffee. Get real.

I think this makes a good point.
Words don't hurt me(Gimp of an old man was kinda harsh though) but they did hurt Megan. You can't compare me to her in any way other than we are both human and have the same human rights. I have an emotional reaction to being called broke down but I'm going to live with it. Megan couldn't live with her emotional reaction. In your logic does that mean she wasn't worthy to live? She deserved to be abused by those stronger than her?
Jailed before coffee Bill. I'm talking about a responsibility to be humane and you joke about impossible laws that no one can judge.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 11-28-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Simply telling these people to suck it up and move on with their lives is an unrealistic, and quite frankly, an ignorant way to try and deal with the problem.

No, i'm saying to tell yourself to examine your past, to see what's affecting your now.
Then dump it.

I think most people don't do it becouse it's TOO scary, or too painfull.
I do believe we all have the capacity to self-diagnose.

But when you have a second party guiding that regression, i think the retrieved information gets inheirently corrupted.
Becouse that second party interpets that information based on all their life expirences (personal, read, told, gathered, learned, etc.).
Since who they are, is made up of their past, unique to them, there is no way of knowing what they have resolved in themselves, and what they have yet to discover stuffed away, deep down.
Which could affect how they see another's problems.
Kind of like a rape victim being on a jury in a rape trial.
They might tend to project their personal expirences into the facts.

Remember the problem of sexually abused young kids, and the stories they could not have possiblly made up?
That were later found to be just that!
And the "Devil Cult" stories, along those same lines.
Weather their "memories" were "guided" by the questioner, or fantasy interpited as reality, the "science" is just too faulted, when left to "mentally imperfect' human beings to do the interpiting of what is causing another persons pain.
They can only guess, based on what they know personally, and what they have been told, by others.
And that information is individually tainted by each person.
No one comes to the table clean.


Humans are imperfect in guiding the direction of other humans mental state.
Example: Marrage Counsulers who have been divorced 3 times.


I WILL add that I think there is definitlly a place for psychiatrists.
Some people DO need them as a guide, a trusted friend, a hand to hold, and a person to give them idea's on WHERE this pain MAY be comming from.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-23-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Humans are imperfect in guiding the direction of other humans mental state. Example: Marrage Counsulers who have been divorced 3 times. No, i'm saying to tell yourself to examine your past, to see what's affecting your now. Then dump it.

So you're suggesting that someone who has been traumatized for the first 20 years of their life (and who continues to live in a traumatized state as an adult) is better able to turn their life around by themselves than with the assistance of a trained professional?

Boonie, I'm not referring to people who as kids were perhaps forced to eat their vegetables. I'm referring to kids who were forced to eat their own feces, kids who were forced to engage in sexual acts with anyone who was brought over to the house, kids who were forced to watch their favorite pets being slowly tortured to death... What makes these experiences that much more damaging is that they were orchestrated by a parent or guardian, by a trusted individual, by someone who was supposed to love them. That makes a HUGE difference with how much these experiences damage an individual.

These people as adults often aren't able to simply "dump it".

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: So you're suggesting that someone who has been traumatized for the first 20 years of their life (and who continues to live in a traumatized state as an adult) is better able to turn their life around by themselves than with the assistance of a trained professional? Boonie, I don't know about you, but I'm not referring to people as kids who were forced to eat their vegetables. I'm referring to kids who were forced to eat their own feces, kids who were forced to engage in sexual acts with anyone who was brought over to the house, kids who were forced to watch their favorite pets being slowly tortured to death... What makes these experiences that much more damaging is that they were orchestrated by a parent or guardian, by a trusted individual, by someone who was supposed to love them. That makes a HUGE difference with how much these experiences damage an individual. These people as adults often aren't able to simply "dump it".

WHAT?!!!!!!
THAT STUFF REALLY HAPPENS?!!!!

I thought that kind of stuff was just TV stuff!

No, I was referring to the whiney adult, "My parents didn't love me enough or the way I wanted them to." stuff.
That "My life is a mess becouse I didn't get that same bike my friends had." stuff.

The stuff YOU speak of is unimaginable.
Which is why I never imagined it.
In THOSE cases, that kid would have to be reprogramed from SCRATCH, I would imagine!
I gotta imagine that would take years of very painfull work to reverse THAT kind of REAL damage!
In those cases, I would have to TOTALLY agree with you!

My posts started about a conversation I had at work about whiney adults who spend huge amounts of time and money trying to come to terms with "My parents didn't love me enough or the way I wanted them to, I wasn't popular at school, I never got that antfarm I wanted, they never bought me Nikes like everyone else, etc. etc. etc.".
That was the kind of problems I was talking about dumping.
NOT physical stuff.

But, i'm from the woods.
Maybe growing up in the city is alot different.

Your point is taken.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Bill I didn't change his words? I quoted his whole post.

Though the part about doing six million others a favor was harsh on the surface I found the sarcasm lurking under it. The sarcasm replaces the harshness of his post with reality. I personally didnt find it offensive or required a label designed to take his post to another level.

quote quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Ohh... and I dont like you anymore.. Not only dont I like you any more but you're retarded too.. and broke down old gimp of a man. So go leap off a bridge and take a long walk on a short pier.. ya wimp. I spose I'll wake up tomorrow and be jailed for "attempted murder" before my first cup of coffee. Get real. /quote I think this makes a good point.

It was designed to make that point.

This internet thing is the wild west so if you are weak you will not survive very long. I WILL admit the people who murdered Meaghan are akin to immature school yard bullies, we have no shortage of them ON THIS FORUM and I deal with them accordingly. But to say that these individuals are responsible is something entirely different and requires laws to regulate it.

Meghan was weak and SHOULD NOT have been allowed to have access to this environment. Instead she was and her parents are setting a precedence for governmental regulation. There would be no love lost if Skanc and Spaceboy were hauled off to prison for disobeying such legislation but I dont wish it upon them because I CAN deal with it. I hate the government way more than skanc or space.

quote Words don't hurt me(Gimp of an old man was kinda harsh though) but they did hurt megan. You can't compare me to her in any way other than we are both human and have the same human rights.

You have the right to go elsewhere, you have the right to get meds but you don not have the right to ask the government to make another a criminal because you cant hack it and might jump off a bridge. Why not just outlaw bridges or turn your computer off instead?

quote I have an emotional reaction to being called broke down but I'm going to live with it. Megan couldn't live with her emotional reaction. In your logic does that mean she wasn't worthy to live? She deserved to be abused by those stronger than her? Jailed before coffee Bill.

I know all about reactions. I will agree again those bullies were the final straw and it will be their burdon to carry if they had malicious intent. If they exploited a weakness of hers it would be obvious that her parent knew about it and chose NOT to regulate her internet activities.

Again I will state.
Meghan had a problem and should not have been permitted BY HER PARENTS to access the internet. She should have been tended to more closely, given meds and should have been MONITORED. She was ABNORMAL yet was allowed to mingle in an environment where trolls regularly snack on billy goats at the drop of a hat.

quote I'm talking about a responsability to be humane and you joke about impossible laws that no one can judge.

I have no responsibility to care for you other than pay taxes.

You can bet your ass that a legal precedence will be set over this... Just what we need.. more nanny bullshit..

Good thing we have a signature we can use on this forum. I think I'll start working on my legal disclaimer now.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Not everyone was meant to survive into adulthood. Thanks Megan, from all of us.

Yea she was most likely going to be a troubled adult but, the people that messed with a kid that they know is troubled should be held criminally libel. Considering that an adult was involved, they should have been the intelligent controlling force. I would hate to find that some adult was sponsoring a mind mess with my kid. I might do something really bad if it killed my kid.

Most of the rest of your posts crazyd I agree with. I hate the safety, bubble wrap, sanitized world. Every now and again I remind my son that the world is full of great and wonderful people and a few jerks that mess it up for the rest of us.

Not to hi-jack and get off subject here, but it's sad that she had to kill herself. I've wondered what goes thru a person's mind just before they let go and commit suicide. I've personally had a cousin take her own life. Last I remember, she got into an arguement with her mom, my aunt (Of course), over getting a cell phone. Apparently, the other kids at school made fun of her for not having one, my aunt and uncle were separating at the time as well. Plus those unknown factors that she kept private that no one knew about. She ended up driving my uncle's van off a cliff after she didn't get her phone.

With that being said, it makes me wonder what OTHER FACTORS also played a part in her death, other than this. Just one event shouldn't have pushed her that far over the edge, even tho she was a bit mental.

quote Originally posted by aceman: What's really unfortunate is that Bill is at the center of all of these threads that degrade and tries to deflect the degrading of a thread on everyone else. I don't see a post from Phranc or me until this one right now, so I don't want to hear one peep or fart from you about what I stated. The truth is in this thread.

What's really unfortunate is that you can't be bothered to actually participate in a thread any more before you drop in and pick a fight with Bill. Thanks for 6 posts of garbage (from you and Bill), this thread wasn't clogged up enough already.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: What's really unfortunate is that you can't be bothered to actually participate in a thread any more before you drop in and pick a fight with Bill. Thanks for 6 posts of garbage (from you and Bill), this thread wasn't clogged up enough already.

And your post served what purpose? You hadn't even posted in this thread until now. And, I participate in numerous other threads that don't include Bill.

I posted to show that 84Bill is the factor in threads going to a trash can nothing more. Didn't even argue with him. Just wanted to point out his defection and his tactics are with anyone. Not just Phranc or me.

quote Originally posted by aceman: And your post served what purpose? You hadn't even posted in this thread until now. And, I participate in numerous other threads that don't include Bill. I posted to show that 84Bill is the factor in threads going to a trash can nothing more. Didn't even argue with him. Just wanted to point out his defection and his tactics are with anyone. Not just Phranc or me.

A futile attempt to enlighten you as to your often-equal roll in the trashing of threads. Obviously, that's lost on you. You and phranc seem to be the only ones who take what Bill says personally enough to trash a thread over it.

You enjoy pointing out how Bill's "tactics" often mess up threads and it bothers you. Well guess what? What bothers other people is you and phranc dropping in to pick fights with Bill and clog up threads with a bunch of name-calling and rehashing of old, unrelated arguments. This thread wasn't headed towards the trash till you popped in to fight with Bill. There's a difference between a debate and trash can-worthy thread.

I was enjoying reading the discourse in this thread and had not yet had a suitably strong opinion to post. That is, until you posted.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86:

lol

My my my..... how far we have come together. ::little tears of joy::

quote Now Megan's parents hope the people who made the fraudulent profile on the social networking web site will be prosecuted, and they are seeking legal changes to safeguard children on the Internet.

Instead of suing everyone in sight, how about being aware of what your own children are doing?

quote Originally posted by FriendGregory: Yea she was most likely going to be a troubled adult but, the people that messed with a kid that they know is troubled should be held criminally libel. Considering that an adult was involved, they should have been the intelligent controlling force. I would hate to find that some adult was sponsoring a mind mess with my kid. I might do something really bad if it killed my kid.

I understand your concern for your own, but we already have too many governmental intrusions into the simple act of parenting. We don't need any more: give 'em an inch and they take a mile - kids, politicians, and law enforcement. The people that many of you are calling criminals didn't necessarily do the right thing, but the fact that Megan coincidentally killed herself doesn't make it wrong either. This type of stuff goes on all the time, it has just been elevated to this level because the consequences were unusually severe. The blame lies with Megan and her parents, and that's it. It has become commonplace in American society to look for external sources of blame, when people need to take a look at themselves and accept responsibility for their own lives and the consequences of their own behavior. You cannot always control the things people will say to you, but you can control whether you let it bother you. Megan let it bother her and chose to end her life in the midst of her other problems. That was HER choice. Nobody forced her to do it. She will be missing out on a lot, but I don't feel sorry for her. We all have the freedom to make these choices for ourselves, and that freedom is more important than anything else. I really don't mind if stupid people do stupid things to themselves. Not everyone wants to be saved; not everyone should be saved.

As I watch; the depravity of the world creeps upon my boundry's
No one stands to halt its aproach. I am to blame
Run and hide
When I linger on the thought of deceny I am rebuked
I stand alone; my equals savor my loss. I am to blame
Run and hide
"Accept your fate: the world can not be changed"
These words I wisper as I lock my doors. I am to blame
Run and hide

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: lol My my my..... how far we have come together. ::little tears of joy::

Heh heh, that hadn't escaped me. Its been a long road, hasn't it?

On topic...

I'm fairly certain if I went and found some 13 year old girl and started messing with her head (in person), pretending to be her friend or love interest and etc., people would consider it wrong, inappropriate, and probably call me a pedophile. But since these parents, who of anyone should know better, did it over the internet and not in person, its not as bad? I think not. The wrong-doing is still there. While I don't know that any criminal law would apply (harassment maybe?), I imagine that the family will be able to get something out of them in civil court, especially since they don't deny what they did. I can't imagine what twisted rationalization went through these peoples heads when they decided that this little scheme of theirs was somehow ok. I can see one person convincing themselves, but there was what, 3 or 4 people participating in this deception? Wow.

Are they culpable in the girls death? I doubt it. Should they be publicly flogged for being demented and idiotic? Absolutely.

More details about this story Here.

This doesn't tell us anything that we really didn't know already, and it still does not tell us the other side of this story. What I did find enlightening and disturbing was reading the comments of the site visitors after it. Please, to all of you advocating legal intervention, stop expecting society and the government to make the world safer for your children. Stop expecting lawmakers to make laws to protect your children. It is a dangerous road to go down, and it's your job anyway. You are responsible for your children, period. If you have too many children and cannot take an active enough role in the upbringing of each of them, do you really think that makes it not your fault when one of them goes off the deep end? It doesn't.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: This doesn't tell us anything that we really didn't know already...

Oh, my apologies. I thought maybe the article might be of interest to a few people. Please excuse my intrusion into this discussion.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: ...and it still does not tell us the other side of this story.

What other frickin side??!!!

You're so intent on covering your ass for those heartless, callous comments you made earlier that you're desperately trying to turn this discussion into a government control issue. You’re not fooling anybody.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: There is no shortage of human beings on this planet, and she did the six billion remaining survivors of humanity a small favor. Thanks Megan, from all of us.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-27-2007).]