quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: this conversation has come up a few times. and simply put. which is better? the 25 in your pocket or the 45 you left at home

Yep! I can't agree more. However, If a person elects to carry a concealed handgun, it has only one purpose - to STOP potentially lethal or other deserving illegal behavior. If a person is going to accept the heavy responsibility of potentially having to use a lethal weapon, a concealed weapon is like an American Express card - "DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT!" Be very sure the weapon will do the job you NEED it to do WHEN you need it to do it!. A malfunctioning or under powered (unless a person is capable of consistently putting bullet between a perps eyes under horrific stress conditions) handgun is no better than the .45 left at home - and some stats show maybe even MORE dangerous.

Unfortunately, I have actually seen carry guns that have not been out a holster for years and rust is actually formed in some areas. A carry gun should be used very frequently and cleaned after every use. DO NOT over lubricate. Modern handguns function quite well with the barest minimum of lubrication.Practice, practice, practice! Practice drawing and firing. Drawing and firing. Drawing and firing. It need to be a smooth, quick motion. Remember, the difference in a "good" shooter and "great" shooter is about 5000 rounds!

Shoulder holster when it's cool/cold enough for a jacket or coat. In the warming months I wear a back holster, just pull the back of my shirt up and there it is.

Carry a High point C-9 9mm comp. Also keep a High point .45 ACP in my car with me.

In the car, the door pocket.

When I get out of the car it goes directly

On my body the small of the back, unless I am doing a lot of sitting.

Sitting hip holster or shoulder holster.

Buy the way in Maine it is still legal to carry out in the open without any permit, fully loaded. Very rarely do I carry that way unless out on the farm. You can be asking for trouble if someone sees you carrying.

Oh ya, Glock 17 with an extra clip. Both clips loaded with FMJ, JHP, FMJ, JHP, alternated all the way down.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I had a Walther .380 PPK/S I used to carry in the waistband. Parents got an RV and I gave it to them. I have a Glock 22 but I can't carry around that big old sucker. I'm too skinny! It has been known to ride in the door pocket of my Fiero. and my truck, though. I'm looking around for another small .380.

quote Originally posted by 87GTSleeper: I had a Walther .380 PPK/S I used to carry in the waistband. Parents got an RV and I gave it to them. I have a Glock 22 but I can't carry around that big old sucker. I'm too skinny! It has been known to ride in the door pocket of my Fiero. and my truck, though. I'm looking around for another small .380.

Check out a Bersa or a Keltec. They are both farily small, and reasonably priced too.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Perhaps i misunderstood, but your #4: There are some states that honor our CCW permit ( Kentucky and alabama are examples ) EDIT: Looks like some 20 do http://handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf

Hmmm, I guess I should let dcfox anwer this one but......he said you cannot carry in your state or in a reciprocal state because you did not have the required CHL for either .

A letter from the State of Texas Office of the Governor was signed and filed at 4:00 p.m. on Nov 5, 2005 that stated: Persuant to his powers as chief executive officer and Governor of Texas, Rick Perry has issued the following: A proclamation granting full faith and credit to valid concealed weapon permits issued by the State of Indiana.

So, get a permit to carry in Indy and you can carry here in Texas! We LOVE legal guns on our streets!

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Hmmm, I guess I should let dcfox anwer this one but......he said you cannot carry in your state or in a reciprocal state because you did not have the required CHL for either . A letter from the State of Texas Office of the Governor was signed and filed at 4:00 p.m. on Nov 5, 2005 that stated: Persuant to his powers as chief executive officer and Governor of Texas, Rick Perry has issued the following: A proclamation granting full faith and credit to valid concealed weapon permits issued by the State of Indiana. So, get a permit to carry in Indy and you can carry here in Texas! We LOVE legal guns on our streets!

As a side note, we here in indiana honor *ALL* other states permits when you come visit us. The way it should be everywhere.. how some states twist and contradict the federal constitution is offensive.

Thanks JohnF.

My #4 WAS stating that he couldn't carry in TX...because according to his previous posts...I interpreted it to mean that he doesn't currently hold a CHL...which would make him carrying a handgun in TX...illegal.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: As a side note, we here in indiana honor *ALL* other states permits when you come visit us. The way it should be everywhere.. how some states twist and contradict the federal constitution is offensive.

Yea, Indy! Yes, a properly valid license should be honored by any and every state - just as it is in Texas. Unfortunately, some states do not want to be reciprocal and it is only political. Look who (party affiliation) is running those states! It is DIMmocrats (sic) in every case! 'nuff said! Wonder who your "friends are?"

well whoever you want to bash on. in about 5 days i'll be able to carry in the 2 states that i spend my time in. Missouri and Kansas.

quote Originally posted by lurker: generally any handgun costing under $100 will be problematic. if the gun fails to feed or fire at the wrong time, you wasted your $100. lorcin, bryco/jennings and others are called by some "junk guns". the ones i've seen have terrible fit and finish. you can do better with foreign mil-surp pistols, which are designed and built to be reliable.

Wholeheartedly agree...if you want a weapon that is inexpensive, durable, and reliable, find a .380 Makarov, particularly those made in East Germany. Russians aren't much for designing large caliber hand weapons, but they like their guns to work when they want 'em to. A couple of websites will tell you which ones are preferred models, and tips for improving them, and you can buy aftermarket grips for them which vastly improve the look of the gun. Even the worst-made Makarov pistol is light-years ahead of Bryco or Lorcin in terms of quality and design, and very comparable in price...If you're carrying a Lorcin, btw, try like hell not to drop it with one in the chamber. The life you save may be your own.

quote Originally posted by dcfox: Thanks JohnF. My #4 WAS stating that he couldn't carry in TX...because according to his previous posts...I interpreted it to mean that he doesn't currently hold a CHL...which would make him carrying a handgun in TX...illegal.

Sorry about that, context is important

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: well whoever you want to bash on. in about 5 days i'll be able to carry in the 2 states that i spend my time in. Missouri and Kansas.

Yea, buddycraigg. Congratulations. No bashing going on, just simply stating the facts. You might note that in both Kansas and Missouri, the Republican party is the controlling party in BOTH houses of BOTH states!

Come on down to Texas any time .......and oh yeah, bring your concealed weapon, too! No restrictions between those states and Texas except the agreement between Kansas and Texas states that a Kansas CHL(CCW) holder must meet the requirements for Texas (specifically, type/caliber of weapon, it seems). Missouri/Texas reciprocal agreement has no exceptions of any kind - reciprocal is reciprocal in every respect. I also notice that the Kansas list of "prohibited areas" (libraries, churches, child welfare places, etc) far exceed the "victim only" list in Texas. I say "victim only" because that is what is in these sites - potential victims. Only the bad guys don't abide by the laws! Read our statutes and you will find we like to be protected in many of these sites. Only by posting very specifically worded and sized, bi-lingual, balck-and-white signs (again, unlike Kansas) can a place such as these make carrying a concealed weapon illegal. We see a few of these general signs like Kansas recognizes "No guns allowed", "This establishment prohibits carrying concealed weapons", etc. Texas CHL holders laugh at the ignorance of the people who post such as we walk by these illegal, non-binding signs. Gov. Perry of our fair state has quoted unequivocally that he would like to see ALL restrictions for concealed carry removed - and that includes college campuses.

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Come on down to Texas any time .......and oh yeah, bring your concealed weapon, too!

hmmm, i've always loved TX. the wife would probably move there.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: hmmm, i've always loved TX. the wife would probably move there.

Oh, BTW -your wife is welcome, too! She can get her CHL here (just like my wife did)!

In Ohio open carry is not banned, and it doesn't draw much attention from folks. Some people will get bug-eyes, but not much happens. Just keep it fully in the open and your hands off of it and you're fine. I don't see others do it very often, but from time to time I'll see other folks open carrying.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 10-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Rainman: In Ohio open carry is not banned, Just keep it fully in the open and your hands off of it and you're fine. I don't see others do it very often, but from time to time I'll see other folks open carrying.

Whoa! Ohio H.B. 347 effective 2/14/2007 repealed the open carry (plain sight) law of Ohio!

edit: Yeah, I know. Gun laws are hard to keep up with - but necessary!

OOOOOps! Typo. Effective date of Ohio H.B. 347 was 3/14/2007.

[This message has been edited by JohnF (edited 10-29-2007).]

I have a Jennings (one of the cheapo brands) 22 long rifle semi auto and I had major problems with it feeding rounds, yes you get what you pay for in fire arms BUT I found that it was just particular in what brand and style of ammo I fed it. I would NOT EVER carry that thing with a round in the chamber,,,,,,EVER!. It is a good gun for in the pocket of my shorts when out in the small boats on river trips, just in case I fall in etc. it is nice that it is not a major investment.
I think there is a whole family, literally, that owns all the cheapo gun brands of this type, Jennings, Raven etc. they all pretty much look the same too. Ya it's a POC but was only fitty bucks.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: ... it's a POC but was only fitty bucks.

And your life is worth how much?

what was that old Bell helmet quote "got a $10 head? wear a $10 helmet"

quote Originally posted by JohnF: And your life is worth how much?

Yes, this point is not lost on me, and of course is a good one. I own some very nice quality guns. I will say however that I bought the gun more than 18 years ago. Money was much tighter back then especially after purchasing my other hand guns and hunting rifle. I will say though that IT DOES work just fine, I would just not keep one in the chamber.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: what was that old Bell helmet quote "got a $10 head? wear a $10 helmet"

Very good buddy.....

the ex cop that did our 8 hour long class carries a 5 shot 22 revolver in his pocket.
he made a very good point about it.

myself, i'm 5'6" and 160#.
if someone my size or bigger already had me on the ground beating on me, i wouldn't be strong enough to grab their head and twist it enough to snap their neck. but i can put a tiny gun right behind their ear and pull the trigger.

the knee or groin would be a good second choice as a release tactic, and then go back in to stopping the threat.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 10-31-2007).]

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Back to the argument (discussion) of an earlier comment. .22 cal WTF? Hit the bad guy with the gun, it will do more damage than pissing him off with a .22 cal round fired into his body. The idea of a concealed carry weapon is to STOP lethal aggressive acts by a bad guy. A .22 will only piss him off!

Not true at all. I am not as much up on stats as I used to be BUT a 22LR used to be the most used round to "KILL" people, very well might still be today.
The function of a larger diameter round is ONLY to increase the chance by percentage of mass that you will actually hit a vital organ or bone to "instantly" incapacitate the assailant. Penetration can be important of course. A 22LR will most definitely kill you and is an excellent choice for very small arms carry.

So will a 25cal, but in this case there is not much penetrating power so a few layers of thick clothing or a wallet in a breast pocket can stop the round.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Not true at all. I am not as much up on stats as I used to be BUT a 22LR used to be the most used round to "KILL" people, very well might still be today. So will a 25cal, but in this case there is not much penetrating power so a few layers of thick clothing or a wallet in a breast pocket can stop the round.

As buddy said, a round behind the ear! The .22 is still the most preferred weapon/caliber for the professional assassin. I am not one. A .22 sub-sonic round is certainly lethal when the bullet enters the brain through or behind the ear. A .22 cal. sub-sonic round can also be effectively silenced where it is not possible with any higher powered ammunition. Because I cannot reasonably assure myself that I can put a .22 round behind a bad guys ear should I find the need to STOP his potentially lethal behavior towards me or someone else, I prefer to have proven stopping power in my hands. At the muzzle, a .22 has about 140 lb. ft. of energy; a .25 cal is worse at 70 to 100 lb.ft.; a .380 generates about 200 or more and the 9mm doubles that at 385 to 435 lb.ft. or about 3 times the stopping power of the .22 cal. Do the math - you live (or die) by your choices in this life. Your instructor may carry his 5 shot .22. He has made the decision that he will accept the consequences.

The old saying, "God made all men: Sam Colt made all men equal!" So, regardless of my size (or my wife's) or the opponents, I want stopping power that keeps the aggressor out of arms reach if at all possible. I don't want to get so close that I can/need put that round behind his ear. My chosen absolute minimum for me and my family is the .380 (my wife's). I confidently carry a 9mm.

BTW - We also practice our answers to the prosecutor's question, "Why did you shoot him 10 times?"

Answer, "That's all the bullets I had!"

quote Originally posted by JohnF: BTW - We also practice our answers to the prosecutor's question, "Why did you shoot him 10 times?" Answer, "That's all the bullets I had!"

HA

but really back to the discussion.
i agree, this is a time that size does matter. i dont expect to carry anything smaller than the 380.
but if i had to choose between a 22/25 or nothing, i would take the 22/25.

i get my first set of papers tomorrow, then it's a 24 hour wait and then to the DMV to get a new drivers licence

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 10-31-2007).]

quote Originally posted by JohnF: The old saying, "God made all men: Sam Colt made all men equal!" So, regardless of my size (or my wife's) or the opponents, I want stopping power that keeps the aggressor out of arms reach if at all possible. I don't want to get so close that I can/need put that round behind his ear. My chosen absolute minimum for me and my family is the .380 (my wife's). I confidently carry a 9mm.

I said nothing about a behind the ear shot. A 22LR has plenty of penetration power. Ask any poacher, I wild animal is harder to take down than a human because the animal has no preprogrammed shock factor to being shot. A 45 is also subsonic, so what. What makes the 25cal so bad is the very slow travel light round and larger diameter. I would rather have that then nothing.

Really the only thing bad you can say about my 22 is that it is a Jennings. One of these days I am going to get the Beretta 22 semi auto with the pop up barrel, more just because I like the gun because my Jennings is perfect to carry into the sh!tty environment such as canoeing, kayaking and rafting.
My personal carry weapon is a Browning 40cal, depending on what holster arrangement I want I will also carry my 9mm. Yes sir ree, I would much rather have the 40cal if something came down! but that is not the point.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I said nothing about a behind the ear shot. A 22LR has plenty of penetration power. A 45 is also subsonic, so what.

Read carefully - my statement is "As buddy....said...". Shot placement (such as your reference to poached animals) is the key to stopping a person or any other live animal. The next best thing is "stopping power" and that is measured in energy. The amount of shock and tissue damage that is transferred to the target is directly relative to the energy of the bullet at impact.

As to the statement "A .22 has plenty of power" - what does that mean?. A .22 has about 140 lb ft of energy. Is that statement in relation to a 12 ga slug at more than 4000 lb ft of energy (385 grain bullet at 2000 fps) or a Daisy Red Ryder bb gun at 8 lb ft of energy? Define "plenty"! If the .22 has "plenty" of power the way you seem to define it, I would think that it would be adopted as the standard sidearm for all the police and military users in the world. It is cheaper, lighter and simpler than virtually all the handguns used in these applications.

In referring to the subsonic .22 ammo, I was not referring to the speed but rather the name of the actual ammo. It is a .22 short and is just as deadly as any other .22 when the shot is placed properly, i.e., "behind the ear"

A .45 cannot, even though some bullets have a speed of less than 1128 fps, be "silenced" nearly as effectively as the .22 subsonic ammo. In a Ruger Mark II with a bull barrel and an effective silencer, the firing of the gun cannot be heard by nearby "civilians".

The .22 is used by poachers statement reminds me of one I have heard all my life, "The lever action 30-30 has killed more deer than any other rifle in the world". It is a true statement. The statement "The 30-30 has WOUNDED more deer than any other rifle in the world" is also a true statement!

A .22 in your hand is far more deadly than the .44 Mag you left at home because it was too big to carry everywhere.

Everything is a tradeoff. I'd prefer to not go any smaller than a .380 for a concealed weapon, but for some situations, a tiny little .22 or .25 is certainly better than nothing.

I have my ccl and carry 24/7. My firearm of choice: Browning P35 High Power loaded with 147gr semi-jacketed hollow points loaded for sub-sonic velocities. When I want to go old school I carry a S&W 586 357mag loaded with 158gr hollow points.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: A .22 in your hand is far more deadly than the .44 Mag you left at home ...

I agree, as buddycraig said at the bottom of page 2 to this thread.

Yes, everything is a trade off in this world of carry weapons, too. A gun of any type or caliber is simply a "tool" like a hammer or a pair of pliers. I do not belittle the .22 or the .25 (or the .32, even) when they are properly used. The smaller calibers just do not fit into my world as the proper tools to be used as defensive weapons and I don't use any gun to drive nails, either. I have taught many people to properly handle and shoot a handgun and rifle using the .22. All the basics are the same as the .500 - just a LOT less recoil, noise and expense. Once the .22 has been effectively mastered, the skills can be used to safely and properly handle and shoot any standard production firearm.

And, by golly, .22's are just plain FUN!

When I do carry, which is rare these days, I wear on the right rear hip. The gun I carry is small and light, which makes a huge difference. It's a PT-111 Ruger, 9mm polymer frame 10+1 magazine. Its light enough and a 9mm has enough punch to do damage. Its not accurate at distance but isn't really meant for that and honestly if the person is more than 10 yards away likely you don't have a good reason to shoot unless returning fire. Better to run and live than fight and die I always say. Also when you pull a carry gun its time to shoot, not time to show. If its out of the holster you better be prepared to start squeezing off rounds or you should never have pulled it in the first place.

Just my $.02

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Read carefully - my statement is "As buddy....said...". Shot placement (such as your reference to poached animals) is the key to stopping a person or any other live animal. The next best thing is "stopping power" and that is measured in energy. The amount of shock and tissue damage that is transferred to the target is directly relative to the energy of the bullet at impact. As to the statement "A .22 has plenty of power" - what does that mean?. A .22 has about 140 lb ft of energy. Is that statement in relation to a 12 ga slug at more than 4000 lb ft of energy (385 grain bullet at 2000 fps) or a Daisy Red Ryder bb gun at 8 lb ft of energy? Define "plenty"! If the .22 has "plenty" of power the way you seem to define it, I would think that it would be adopted as the standard sidearm for all the police and military users in the world. It is cheaper, lighter and simpler than virtually all the handguns used in these applications. In referring to the subsonic .22 ammo, I was not referring to the speed but rather the name of the actual ammo. It is a .22 short and is just as deadly as any other .22 when the shot is placed properly, i.e., "behind the ear" A .45 cannot, even though some bullets have a speed of less than 1128 fps, be "silenced" nearly as effectively as the .22 subsonic ammo. In a Ruger Mark II with a bull barrel and an effective silencer, the firing of the gun cannot be heard by nearby "civilians". The .22 is used by poachers statement reminds me of one I have heard all my life, "The lever action 30-30 has killed more deer than any other rifle in the world". It is a true statement. The statement "The 30-30 has WOUNDED more deer than any other rifle in the world" is also a true statement!

We are not actually disagreeing on much of this. I will however say that a 22 short is just about as worthless as a round can get! About 30 years ago we were target shooting at my GP house in CT when you could still legally shoot there and I fired a 22 short and the dam thing came back at me and hit the garage door! I think my 22 pump rifle would out perform it.

What I am saying about plenty of power is that it WILL penetrate your body and unless it is a freak angle will penetrate your skull, this is a 22 long rifle, not a 22 short. This is a fact.

If I was absolutely sure I was going to be in a gun fight I would not even think about bringing a hand gun anyways.

Stopping power huh, a lot of these phrases are good for nothin more than selling guns. Ultimately you want to hit the guy with the biggest object possible, that is a no brainer, I would rather hit them with my pickup truck too, but there is a always trade off when deciding what side arm to carry, where you are going plays a big part in this. The military did not switch over to the 9mm because it is a better round than the 45, but because it will carry more rounds in the gun and you can fit more rounds in a case and is lighter on a supply basis. In fact the main problem with the 9mm aside from the smaller round is that they often over penetrate.

All I can say is when I am wearing nothing but my swim trunks the 22 long rifle semi auto is the BEST choice for me in my opinion. Fine with me if you want to strap on your 45 for a day on the beach.

Is that a .45 in your Speedos, or are you just happy to see me?

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Whoa! Ohio H.B. 347 effective 2/14/2007 repealed the open carry (plain sight) law of Ohio! edit: Yeah, I know. Gun laws are hard to keep up with - but necessary! OOOOOps! Typo. Effective date of Ohio H.B. 347 was 3/14/2007.

Actually, There is an ORC (Ohio Revised Code), 9.68 I think. It ensures that local laws cannot trump state law, meaning any municipality that makes laws regarding open/concealed carry are unenforceable because state law overrules and state still allows open carry. Governor Taft (total waste, what a dumbf*** governor) and his veto pen weren't enough, majority overruled him.

Found it: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

Look at (1).

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 10-31-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Stopping power huh, a lot of these phrases are good for nothin more than selling guns.

I bet you are one of those people who doesn't believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy either!

Generally, stopping power reporting is based on the studies of all shootings reported in the last 40 years and such material is readily available from a multitude of sources on this internet. It includes both civilian and police and military (where such is available). Stopping power or one-shot-stop statistics don't lie - they are the simple facts. They ARE NOT used by the gun manufacturers or importers to tout their particular gun or caliber or load. It would be political suicide for any manufacturer or importer to say "My gun/round kills people better than your gun/round!"

Actual mathematical stopping power is based on energy (velocity in feet-per-second squared times the mass of the bullet (in grains) and the result divided by 7000). It is simple physics, not hype.

And, yes, a .22 short IS a deadly round as I and buddycraig have said over and over and over in this thread - WHEN PROPERLY PLACED! Ask any cow or pig in a slaughterhouse what happened to their "friend" in the feedlot. The ubiquitous .22 short has been used for 100 years to dispatch 800 pound animals in the slaughterhouse. One shot to the brain and it's over for them and on to the bbq!