I see it everywhere. I see it here. The "waterboarding" thread, the "pasadena neighbor robber"..... The hypocrisy.
No, my friends, the Bible speaks of "eye for an eye", but killing someone over property (that isn't even yours!) is going too far.
Torturing people is going too far. That is especially true when you have no idea who they are and what they did. There are 13 year olds imprisoned and being tortured in Guantanamo Bay!
I ask Christians here - how does this stand with you?
quote
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
IP: Logged
12:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
that some of the most crooked people you'll ever meet, you'll meet in a church. Something about them thinking they can do whatever the hell they want, and itll all be okay Sunday.
*Strikes a match*
In my eyes, ya just gotta do whats right. I treat people as I want to be treated, I stay the heck out of their business unless they bring it to me, and so help me god if they try to wrong me maliciously.
All people are in fact created equal, some just become worthless scum.
*drops match* FLAME ON!!!
IP: Logged
12:48 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Weird. I was just thinking about religious hypocrisy last night. How everyone claims they are religious, yet do things in opposistion of what they attack others for. From the bum in the gutter, to the President. Lie, cheat, steal.
But they will say, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" and "Turn the other cheek", all in the same breath. "It's ALL in the interputation!"
If you were to take the Bible, and use it has your SOLE instruction manual for life, you would read the first half and kill when disrespected, and then read the second half and harm no one, to the point of your own demise.
How do you know which parts to take literally, and which parts philosophically?
Lets just take a simple concept. Lieing. Does the bible cover lieing? Is it right or wrong? Is it ok to do it sometimes? When? Is it OK for the religious to lie under certain curcumstances? Did God ever lie? Jesus?
See, when ever I ask that question, I get, "Men are imperfect. They make mistakes. But if you ask God for forgiveness, your mistake is washed clean." Lieing, a MISTAKE?! "Oops, I lied."? How can lieing be a mistake (a "slip" in beliefs), when it is always used PURPOSLY, and mostly for gain (getting over on others), or self-preservation (life, reputation, trouble, etc.)?
Now, don't get me wrong. I do ALOT of wrong stuff. But, I don't claim I belong to some HIGHER group, while doing them. And I don't condem others, waving around the very book I myself only follow when it's convienant or popular.
I think people just take the parts of the Bible that suits them, to their OWN ends, at the given time. At least thats what I see most of the time.
Am I just seeing wrong? No, really, AM I?
IP: Logged
01:23 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
you are taking exceptions, and thinking thats how they all are. just isnt that way. just like the "kids today" thing. most are fine people. but, being fine people - they make no impression. you just remember the ones that make an impression - which is usually the "not so good" ones. a handful of preists molest children, and suddenly people act like they all do.
IP: Logged
01:47 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, is investigating six prominent televangelist ministries for possible financial misconduct. Letters were sent Monday to the ministries demanding that financial statements and records be turned over to the committee by December 6th. According to Grassley's office, the Iowa Republican is trying to determine whether or not these ministries are improperly using their tax-exempt status as churches to shield lavish lifestyles.
The six ministries identified as being under investigation by the committee are led by: Paula White Joyce Meyer Creflo Dollar Eddie Long Kenneth Copeland Benny Hinn
Just to note, an investigation by NO means means these people are guilty of ANYTHING. I truly hope they are not. Even Jesus upturned a few tables over "moneychanging"!
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-19-2007).]
IP: Logged
01:49 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by Pyrthian: you are taking exceptions, and thinking thats how they all are.
The vocal minority?
So you are saying if I were to ask random people these questions, I would find a correlation between "I am a religious Christian" and core religious/moral principles (thou shalt not kill, etc)?
I might take you up on that, because I am curious myself........................ stay tuned.
IP: Logged
01:57 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
you are taking exceptions, and thinking thats how they all are. just isnt that way.
I have met some VERY fine religious people in my life. Living a very forgiving and "turn the other cheek" life. But they also told me that they sometimes do things they are later ashamed of. Judging, gossip, lieing, and other little things. But these people weren't waving The Book around, screeming that others are going to burn for their indescretions. They were just reconizing their faults, and working on them, trying to be better people. For them, the Bible wasn't about THEM judging others, but about how God would judge THEM. A PERSONAL thing, between them & God. PERSONAL improvment, that's something I can get behind. WITHOUT judging how hard (or not) others are working on the same thing, or how far along they are with it, or their lack of reconition for the nesessity of it. Why must our perfection stand on the imperfections of others?
I just wish in my lifetime I could meet ONE person, who REALLY doesn't lie, at all, ever, for ANY reason. Not even to preserve another's feelings. Just one. What an insparation thast would be! But, can a person like that even exsist, given the inhierant nature of men?
To clairify, I am not that person.
IP: Logged
02:14 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by ryan.hess: The vocal minority?
So you are saying if I were to ask random people these questions, I would find a correlation between "I am a religious Christian" and core religious/moral principles (thou shalt not kill, etc)?
I might take you up on that, because I am curious myself........................ stay tuned.
actually - you will find even more than that. that MOST people - christian and otherwise - are good folk.
It doesn't say thou shalt not kill it says thou shalt not murder. Unless its been improperly transcribed or translated.
Killing is a concept of God. Muder is the concept of Man.
With cain & Able, did God see it has killing, or murder?
In my view, God can not even consider the word murder, as it's meaning is too vauge, and it's interpitation left to the whims of men. One mans murder is anothers justice.
Mans definition of murder:
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully. 2. To kill brutally or inhumanly. 3. To put an end to; destroy:
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought by another. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime. Most jurisdictions impose a severe penalty for its commission.
Sometimes the term murder is used by laypersons to describe what is really a homicide. While the two terms are related, they are not synonymous. Relatively few homicides are murders in law. Also, police will often call their investigation into a murder a homicide investigation in order not to prejudice any findings of the investigation, possible charges that could be laid, or any conviction of an offender. However, the crime will normally be identified as a murder once there is sufficient evidence to indicate that a murder is the more likely crime than any other.
Legal Analysis of Murder
To repeat, at common law murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought exists if the defendant acts with any of the following states of mind:
(i) Intent to kill; (ii) Intent to inflict serious bodily harm; (iii) Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (abandoned and malignant heart); or (iv) Intent to commit a felony (felony-murder doctrine).
Under element (i) intent to kill, the deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the defendant intentionally uses a deadly weapon or instrument against the victim, such use authorizes a permissive inference of intent to kill. An example of a deadly weapon or instrument is a gun, a knife, or even a car when intentionally used to strike the victim.
Under element (iii) abandoned and malignant heart, the killing must result from defendant's conduct involving a reckless indifference to human life and a conscious disregard of an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily injury.
IP: Logged
02:35 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
The original Hebrew one. It can also be seen in New Revised Standard Version of the bible.Exodus 20:13, “Lo Tirsach” (imperative case: “No Kill”, Hebrew using fewer words to express thoughts than does English). This is from the verb “lirtzach,” to murder (infinitive) or “rotzach” (1st-3rd person singular), although the English translation in this Old Testament is “Thou Shalt Not Kill. It is not thou shall not kill (harog=kill, 1st-3rd person singular in Hebrew).
If you go to the Judaism 101 website, it states the Sixth Commandment as Thou Shall Not Murder. The Signet Hebrew/English English/Hebrew Dictionary also documents that the Sixth Commandment is linguistically connected for the verb for murder (p.213), not killing (p. 182).
BTW Sunday the 7th is a lie.
IP: Logged
03:08 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
by J. David Hoke You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder" and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, "Raca," shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, in order that your opponent may not deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you shall not come out of there, until you have paid up the last cent.
(Matthew 5:21-26 NASB) Never before have so many been involved in killing. With the memory of Oklahoma City and Haddon Heights, New Jersey still fresh in our minds, this should be sufficiently illustrated. There are certainly an alarming number of people involved in direct killing right here in this so-called civilized country. We hear of increasing crime statistics in almost every major city in America every year.
But there is another kind of killing going on at an even more furious pace today. This would not be direct killing, but it would be put into the same category by Jesus himself. It is the killing that takes place within our hearts. You see, the heart of murder is the heart.
When we think of killing, we normally think of taking another human life. But what exactly do we mean by killing? When God gave the Sixth Commandment, what did He have in mind? Did He mean war, capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia, or self-defense? Is the commandment which forbids us to kill simply a commandment not to take human life and is it limited to actions alone? Could God have in mind the attitudes and emotions behind the actions? Could He be thinking of things like hatred, jealousy, anger, greed, arrogance, and callous words? If these murderous attitudes are included in God's definition of murder, we are in more serious trouble than we realize.
Do you understand what evil lurks in your own heart? Could there be a murderer living in your own house, and could it be you? Understanding the implications of God's prohibition against killing becomes extremely important if it encompasses attitudes as well as actions. If this prohibition takes into account evil thoughts, attitudes, and intentions, then we are all in serious trouble.
The Ten Commandments that were given by God on Mount Sinai included as its Sixth the prohibition against killing or murder. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus clarified its meaning. As we consider its implications we may have to come face to face with things in our lives which we do not like to see or admit. But grapple with them we must. What about you? Is there a murderer in you? Let's turn our attention to the Sermon on the Mount to see how Jesus applies the Sixth Commandment to the way we live our lives.
You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder" (Matthew 5:21). Here Jesus was referring to the Sixth Commandment given by God on Mount Sinai. You may have a translation which reads: "Thou shalt not kill." The literal translation of the word from the Hebrew is murder. It is clear in the Old Testament that God accepted capital punishment, war, and self-defense. What this commandment has in view is the taking of life for capricious reasons.
You see, behind the Sixth Commandment is the view that all life is sacred. That is what God said in Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God he made man." It is clear from this passage of Scripture that life is sacred because it is made in the image of God. Therefore, to destroy life is not only a sin against man it is a sin against God. For the sin of murder, the penalty was death. Jesus said that the ancients understood that whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.
Thus far, the people who were listening to Jesus were thinking of murder in the literal and physical sense. But Jesus was about to give them a definition of murder that would turn their thinking upside down. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court, and whoever shall say to his brother, "Raca," shall be guilty before the supreme court, and whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell (Matthew 5:22).
Jesus reveals that an important principle we must consider is that attitudes precede actions. Since we are not robots - since we are thinking, feeling, human beings with will and choice - our attitudes and intentions are key to our actions. It is in this area that we come face to face with the murderer in each of us.
It is apparent from Jesus' clarification of this commandment that we all may be guilty of violating it. Jesus, as usual, cuts through to the real issue. He reveals that attitudes can be as harmful as actions. Indeed, attitudes precede actions. Attitudes lay the ground work for actions to follow. Through our attitudes then, we may be as guilty before God as if we had committed the very act.
Jesus speaks of attitudes of anger, pride, ego, arrogance, and the like, as He expounds on God's commandment. And He imposes the same judgment on the one with these attitudes as on the one who commits the act itself. You see, there is more than one way to kill a person. Attitudes also kill. They destroy a person's dignity. They destroy a person's self-worth. They kill a person's spirit.
It is interesting the emphasis Jesus places on those attitudes that manifest themselves through our words. Take, for instance, the arrogant egoistic attitude which causes someone to call his brother raca. Raca means "empty-head" or "good for nothing." So when you arrogantly call someone an empty-head, block-head, good for nothing, worthless idiot, and things like these, check your attitude. Is it one of anger? Is it one of bitterness? Is it one of hatred? It is one of prideful self-exaltation?
Jesus condemns these attitudes as worthy of the same judgment as murder. He goes on to say that the kind of murderous hate-filled attitudes which cause someone to call another person a fool causes the one having those attitudes to be deserving of hell. These are strong words indeed! But they come from the very mouth of Jesus. We must hear them.
Look into your own heart. What do you see there? Is there evil lurking there? Do you find yourself with attitudes that you should not have? Are there people with whom you are angry? Are there people against whom you are bitter? Are there people you hate? "He made me so mad I could have killed him." Beware! There could be a murderer in you.
What we see in Jesus' words is a definite connection between physical violence and verbal violence. We can shoot people with a gun or with our tongues. We can kill them with bullets made of lead or with bullets made of words. The origin is the same. It all comes from a hateful heart. The heart of murder is the heart!
God has made men and women in His image. When we depreciate them by hurling hateful, hurtful, demeaning, insulting, and humiliating words at them, we sin against God. Who are we to decide that some people are not worthy or valuable? What do we think we are doing when we call someone a block-head, or loser, or fool, or ****** , or spick, or chink? Do we have the right to depreciate them in that way? Absolutely not!
Jesus goes on to say that attitudes impact our worship. If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering (Matthew 5:23-24).
Every Jew was familiar with the ritual of offering sacrifices in order to atone for sin. They knew that sin separated them from fellowship with God. The offering of the sacrifice restored that fellowship and brought them back into a position of right relationship with God. What Jesus is pointing out is that a right relationship with God depends on our willingness to maintain a right relationship with one another. If we are not willing to live in right relationship with our brothers and sisters, then we are not fit to come and worship the God in whose image they are made.
When we look at the prohibition against murder from this perspective, all of us must admit that we are guilty at times of violating it. There are murderous attitudes in all of us at times. They should grieve our spirits. What can we do about them? When you come face to face with the murderer in you, there is only one recourse.
You must execute the murderer in you. In other words, you must have a commitment to deal a death blow to the attitudes which depreciate human dignity and worth. You must deal a death blow to attitudes and habit patterns which feeds those attitudes.
Obviously, we need to repent. That is the place to start. It usually is. Humility and repentance will always deal a death blow to arrogance and pride. And we need to kill those attitudes because arrogance and pride are attitudes that bring hatred to birth.
The question, of course, is whether we are willing to truly repent of these sinful attitudes. Some people like to hang on to these attitudes. They are angry and are enjoying being angry. Someone has wronged them, in their opinion, and they are cultivating a long term anger and contempt against that person. I have met people like this. The anger is like a pet sin to them. They do not want to repent, or turn away from that sin. It is as if the anger or hatred energizes them. If they didn't have it, they wouldn't really know what to do. So they hang on to it, pretending that it is justifiable anger.
If you are not willing to repent of these sinful attitudes, you will stand under the judgment of God. You will be convicted as a murderer in heart. The judgment for you will be the same judgment for those who commit the physical act of murder. The only alternative is to repent.
Then, after thorough repentance, we must build into our minds and our hearts attitudes which encourage and build up one another. These positive attitudes will replace the negative ones. They will build into our lives new attitudes of love and respect for life.
We are told in Romans 12: 2, "And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Our minds must be renewed if we are to avoid murderous attitudes of heart. Those things on which we allow our minds to dwell, will determine our attitudes of heart. If we dwell on the negative in people - their faults, mistakes, imperfections, hang-ups, even sins - we will come out with wrong attitudes of heart. But if we dwell on the positive, we may begin to see them as God sees them.
In 1 Samuel 16:7, "For God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." Unfortunately it is hard for us to see the heart. Therefore we must choose to dwell upon the positive. That does not mean we do not see the negatives. But it means we do not dwell on the negatives. Rather, we dwell upon the positive.
Listen to what the Lord says to us in Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things." These are the things on which we are to dwell. When we look at another person, we are to look for things that are true, honorable, right, pure, lovely, of good repute. We are to try to find things of excellence and things worthy of praise.
Everyone has good points. We should seek them out, and when we find them we should choose to dwell on those things. As you do, you will find that by so doing you are dealing one death blow after another to the murderous attitudes of pride, arrogance, anger, and hatred. As you continue to do this, you will successfully execute the murderer in you.
It should be clear from Jesus evaluation that our attitudes are vital. His analysis of God's commandments went far beyond the letter of the law. He is telling us that it is not good enough to simply keep the letter of the law. Our obedience to God must begin with our heart. First, there must be a surrender of our hearts to God. Our relationship with Christ must go beyond mere outward observance and service. Our hearts must be His. We must be those who serve from the heart. How is your heart?
Sex scandal hits Atlanta-area megachurch By DORIE TURNER, Associated Press Writer Mon Nov 19, 6:24 PM ET DECATUR, Ga. - The 80-year-old leader of a suburban Atlanta megachurch is at the center of a sex scandal of biblical dimensions: He slept with his brother's wife and fathered a child by her.
Members of Archbishop Earl Paulk's family stood at the pulpit of the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit at Chapel Hill Harvester Church a few Sundays ago and revealed the secret exposed by a recent court-ordered paternity test.
In truth, this is not the first — or even the second — sex scandal to engulf Paulk and the independent, charismatic church. But this time, he could be in trouble with the law for lying under oath about the affair.
The living proof of that lie is 34-year-old D.E. Paulk, who for years was known publicly as Earl Paulk's nephew.
"I am so very sorry for the collateral damage it's caused our family and the families hurt by the removing of the veil that hid our humanity and our sinfulness," said D.E. Paulk, who received the mantle of head pastor a year and a half ago.
D.E. Paulk said he did not learn the secret of his parentage until the paternity test. "I was disappointed, and I was surprised," he said.
Earl Paulk, his brother, Don, and his sister-in-law, Clariece, did not return calls for comment.
A judge ordered the test at the request of the Cobb County district attorney's office and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, which are investigating Earl Paulk for possible perjury and false-swearing charges stemming from a lawsuit.
The archbishop, his brother and the church are being sued by former church employee Mona Brewer, who says Earl Paulk manipulated her into an affair from 1989 to 2003 by telling her it was her only path to salvation. Earl Paulk admitted to the affair in front of the church last January.
In a 2006 deposition stemming from the lawsuit, the archbishop said under oath that the only woman he had ever had sex with outside of his marriage was Brewer. But the paternity test said otherwise.
So far no charges have been filed against Earl Paulk. District Attorney Pat Head and GBI spokesman John Bankhead would not comment.
The shocking results of the paternity test are speeding up a transformation already under way in the church after more than a decade of sex scandals and lawsuits involving the Paulks, D.E. Paulk said.
"It was a necessary evil to bring us back to a God-consciousness," said the younger Paulk, explaining that the church had become too personality-driven and prone to pastor worship.
The flashy megachurch began in 1960 with just a few dozen members in the Little Five Points neighborhood of Atlanta. Now, it is in the suburbs on a 100-acre expanse, a collection of buildings surrounding a neo-Gothic cathedral.
For years the church was at the forefront of many social movements — admitting black members in the 1960s, ordaining women and opening its doors to gays.
At its peak in the early 1990s, it claimed about 10,000 members and 24 pastors and was a media powerhouse. By soliciting tithes of 10 percent from each member's income, the church was able to build a Bible college, two schools, a worldwide TV ministry and a $12 million sanctuary the size of a fortress.
Today, though, membership is down to about 1,500, the church has 18 pastors, most of them volunteers, and the Bible college and TV ministry have shuttered — a downturn blamed largely on complaints about the alleged sexual transgressions of the elder Paulks.
In 1992, a church member claimed she was pressured into a sexual relationship with Don Paulk. Other women also claimed they had been coerced into sex with Earl Paulk and other members of the church's administration.
The church countered with a $24 million libel suit against seven former church members. The lawsuit was later dropped.
Jan Royston, who left the church in 1992, started an online support group for former members to discuss their crushed faith and hurt feelings.
"This is a cult. And you escape from a cult," she said. "We all escaped."
These days, Earl Paulk has a much-reduced role at the cathedral, giving 10-minute lectures as part of Sunday morning worship each week.
"My uncle is 100 percent guilty, but his accusers are guilty as well," D.E. Paulk said, declining to talk further about the lawsuits.
IP: Logged
09:36 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
I hope you all realize "thou shalt not kill" is an impossible task. Even if you're a vegetarian, you still have to kill stuff to survive. And every time you bathe, or wash your hands, or wash your dishes, or your clothes, etc etc, you're killing things.
IP: Logged
09:42 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20708 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
I hope you all realize "thou shalt not kill" is an impossible task. Even if you're a vegetarian, you still have to kill stuff to survive. And every time you bathe, or wash your hands, or wash your dishes, or your clothes, etc etc, you're killing things.
I do beleive there is a implied "other people" - as in - dont kill other people....or murder other people.... yes, as a animal - you must east other lifeforms.....I think the jungle king called this the circle of life?
IP: Logged
09:15 AM
Rainman Member
Posts: 3877 From: Cincinnati, Ohio Registered: Jan 2003
If you don't fully understand God's word, then you can't begin deciding what parts of His word you have kept and which you haven't. God gave 10 commandments and I, without hesitation, will say that I and everyone else on this board are guilty of breaking all of them, even "You shall not murder."
Have you never been angry at another person, have you never insulted someone else, etc? God did leave open the option of the physical act of taking another person's life if they are threatening your own. He doesn't command that you do, but does leave the option open. Also, capital punishment by the state (government) is perfectly allowed in God's word.
The more you read/learn/understand God's word, the more you realize how absolutely terrible you are. Its not 10am yet where I am and I've sinned countless times already this morning. Its then that you realize you can't do anything to be perfect on your own. All people are sinners, including pastors, priests, rabbis, the Pope, what-have-you, and all people are needing of a savior from sin. Some people recognize it, some don't and some refuse.
[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 11-20-2007).]
IP: Logged
09:51 AM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
You answered your own question in your thread title.
The majority of the problem you have is with the, in your accurate words, "so called" religious. There are millions of people who call themselves Christians, who are not Christians. As defined by the Bible.
If you expected all Christians to be perfect all the time or otherwise they are hypocrites, that would be an unreasonable standard and I doubt you are imposing that on anyone.
HOWEVER, there is a line of imperfection that can't be crossed, and also if someone exhibits a PATTERN of disregard for what some would consider more "minor" infractions--you have justifiable cause to discern whether they are a genuine christian or a false one, no matter what THEY publicly CLAIM.
And make no mistake, these are out and out horrible SINS, not "mistakes". Christians don't make "mistakes", no matter WHAT they claim. They are SINS. And wicked. And evil. I'm not saying the PERSON over-all is wicked or evil. But don't sugar coat it. Not mistakes. Sins.
Someone asked about killing. Someone else asked how do you know what to take literally and how to know what is figurative, and what applies now and what was only for a specified period of time. The answer is to read the Bible in a LITERAL, normal reading sense IN CONTEXT. The CONTEXT will let you know if it is to be taken literally, or figuratively. If it is only for a certain time period that has passed, or for now. Regarding killing, it is clear from the context PLUS the totality of the Bible that it is for MURDER of humans. Someone mentioned animals. The context is clear. It has nothing to do with killing of animals. That is explicitly allowed elsewhere in the Bible. And KILLING OF HUMANS is clearly and explicitly allowed in the Bible. War and capitol punishment. Allowed. Intentional, premeditated killing=murder. Strictly prohibited.
Regarding the translations all being corrupted, incomplete, and biased. Well, they were all done by imperfect humans. BUT, there are LOTS of manuscripts. AND, it doesn't mean the ESSENTIAL POINTS are corrupted, incomplete, and biased. And attempts are made to remove bias. King James version for example. Something like FIFTY translators working together on it and meeting, in order to try to keep bias out.
ryan.hess, you would have to give specific issues of "hypocrisy" before I could give specific answers. Those are just some responses to what people brought up in the thread.
Oh, and to Boondawg. I can't say I never lie, but it would be an EXTREMELY rare occasion. Doesn't mean that would satisfy your criteria. P.S. That isn't bragging. I'm just saying.
IP: Logged
11:43 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
how is war allowed?? if king me decides to attack king you, and I send in my men - they are allowed by god to murder your men??
and, I am speaking I go to war with you, for no valid reason, other than I want to. my soldiers are fine by god to kill - well, murder - your men? and, it is murder. they are going there - with killing in mind. they are not defending themselves from anything. they are paid, by me. that is all.
I think soldiers are in a pickle with this. I guess people kinda skip this, because they are used to being on the "good guy" side. but - there are normally 2 sides - and both think they are the "good guys".
I think it's important to separate religious people from spiritual people. Ironically, some of the nicest and overall best people I've ever met were spiritual. Too often religious people are too full of themselves. The whole "I have the right answer and you're damned to hell" concept gives them some kind of superiority complex. A perfect example of that is a sitation my church experienced (which is a Unity church. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church)) We used to meet in a Seventh Day Adventist church. They would meet on Saturdays, we met on Sundays, so it worked out fine. Except, once they realized the nature of our theology, they basically started treating us like crap. As if we weren't as good as them. They were completely disrespectful and frankly, pretty arrogant in their dealings with us. Yet, we treated them with the respect they deserve, even though they certainly didn't reciprocate. But I digress. My point is, that as far as I'm concerned, of all the people I've known in my life, some of the most loving, caring, and genuine people I've ever met, were people who were spiritual, not religious. That's not to say I've never met some mighty fine people who are religious, not at all. I have a cousin who is a very religious person, and is probably one of the finest people to ever walk the face of the planet. The relevance is, that (most) spiritual people aren't pious. No holier-than-thou attitude (that to me is actually contradictory to the whole purpose of trying to be spiritual). And, we believe that being spiritual, and walking the path that we have chosen doesn't necessarily requires us to be big sissies either. I can agree that there are those who talk out of both sides of their mouths, preaching one thing and doing another. But I think you'll find that that's just the tip of the iceberg of their hypocrisy. They pretend in polite company to be one thing when they're something else. Most spiritual people I've ever met never pretend to be anything other than what they are, which is why I'm so drawn to them. Most people who ever read stuff I write may not think of me as being spiritual, but I am. Most would be amazed at my routines and involvements. And everyone who really knows me knows exactly who and what I am, and accepts me as such. Hell, I'm even vice president of the board of directors at my church! And I just said hell, dammit.
IP: Logged
11:56 AM
JohnF Member
Posts: 2622 From: Redeye's Ride is from D/FW, Tx. Registered: Jul 2001
All people are sinners, including pastors, priests, rabbis, the Pope, what-have-you, and all people are needing of a savior from sin. Some people recognize it, some don't and some refuse.
The biggest problem I have with "Christians" or more specifically "fundamentalists" is salvation.
For fundamentalists, it makes no difference how one lives or ends his life. One could be another Mother Teresa, yet still be damned by not accepting Christ in the fundamentalist sense.
On the other hand, one can sober up Sunday morning, go to church, heed the altar call, announce to the congregants an acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and, so long as that is really believed, all is well. Nothing can be done, no sin can be comitted, no matter how henious, that will forfeit salvation.
[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 11-20-2007).]
IP: Logged
12:21 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
I think soldiers are in a pickle with this. I guess people kinda skip this, because they are used to being on the "good guy" side. but - there are normally 2 sides - and both think they are the "good guys".
I can only give you the Bible context answer. The wars ever directed by God in the Bible were NEVER for financial gain or advantage. It was ALWAYS to punish horrendously evil societies after LONG periods of warning.
An example. You could say that God directed the Israelites to go into the promised land for financial gain--that of giving them a land to live in and really that is just property and all about financials. The Bible explicitly states that the reason God had them be slaves in Egypt for 400 years instead of going out earlier and having their own property was because God wasn't finished being patient with the people that lived in Canaan (the promised land) and waiting for them to stop being a country that killed babies as sacrifices, and condoned rape and brutality of women (and men, too, for that matter). Finally when He gave them the go ahead, it was to punish that horrendously wicked society by killing them all. God COULD HAVE just killed them all Himself, obviously, if He is as He is portrayed in the Bible. But He decided to use people to do the killing. So it is clear the Bible portrays God as allowing killing of other humans if HE directs them to do it. And He doesn't consider that murder because He gets to define it, and He says it isn't murder.
But that was for Israel. There is no mandate that exists today from God to go kill a bunch of people. Well, what about the U.S. in Iraq or Afghanistan. Look. There was ALREADY killing going on. We didn't go in their to kill. We went in there to STOP killing. You guys can all have a conversation about whether there is more or less killing, whether the right people are being killed, etc. But we didn't intentionally go in there TO kill. Come on. If wanted to go in there to kill, our soldiers know how to kill. There would be a LOT more dead people right now. Like virtually anyone we wanted.
IP: Logged
12:46 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by frontal lobe: I can only give you the Bible context answer. The wars ever directed by God in the Bible were NEVER for financial gain or advantage. It was ALWAYS to punish horrendously evil societies after LONG periods of warning.
An example. You could say that God directed the Israelites to go into the promised land for financial gain--that of giving them a land to live in and really that is just property and all about financials. The Bible explicitly states that the reason God had them be slaves in Egypt for 400 years instead of going out earlier and having their own property was because God wasn't finished being patient with the people that lived in Canaan (the promised land) and waiting for them to stop being a country that killed babies as sacrifices, and condoned rape and brutality of women (and men, too, for that matter). Finally when He gave them the go ahead, it was to punish that horrendously wicked society by killing them all. God COULD HAVE just killed them all Himself, obviously, if He is as He is portrayed in the Bible. But He decided to use people to do the killing. So it is clear the Bible portrays God as allowing killing of other humans if HE directs them to do it. And He doesn't consider that murder because He gets to define it, and He says it isn't murder.
But that was for Israel. There is no mandate that exists today from God to go kill a bunch of people. Well, what about the U.S. in Iraq or Afghanistan. Look. There was ALREADY killing going on. We didn't go in their to kill. We went in there to STOP killing. You guys can all have a conversation about whether there is more or less killing, whether the right people are being killed, etc. But we didn't intentionally go in there TO kill. Come on. If wanted to go in there to kill, our soldiers know how to kill. There would be a LOT more dead people right now. Like virtually anyone we wanted.
so, war is not a valid excuse for killing/murder. perhaps "crusade" would be a better word? or the ever popular jihad?
IP: Logged
01:40 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
I don't get why theres always a fuss over the people who may be trying to be better (I.E. religious people) screwing up. I know everyone knows this, we all screw up, If you don'tt believe humans are inherently bad this cannot be understood. By trying to be better we are fighting our nature, think of it like someone in an argument that loses it and slugs the opponent. In a moment all they have struggled to rid themselves of comes back. It is a mistake in the big picture. I wish there were more fuss over bad things in general. Try to hang with people who try to be better, do it yourself, when people screw up theres not much to gain by saying "see why do they even try, lets just all do whatever feels good."
I am not referring to anyone here, this is just my take on it.
IP: Logged
02:02 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
MOTIVE has ALWAYS been a major part of the equation in the Bible portrayal of God, NOT just WHAT is done.
War is war. Not according to God doing judgement. Killing in a war whose primary goal is to gain financial advantage is just murder while stealing. Killing in a war to try to protect people from random murder and theft (Iraq) or to protect yourself from attack (Afghanistan) isn't sinful. I'll leave to others to decide what our primary motivation was to go into these countries. Just using them as an example.
We killed A LOT of people in WWII. A lot of those people were germans who called themselves Christians. Hmmm. Christians killing Christians. Who did God consider righteous and who did He consider evil? Both were in a war. Who were in it for financial gain? Who were in it to protect themselves, or defend innocents?
How much property did we come out of WWII with? Did we destroy the countries? After the goal was accomplished, we were involved in helping rebuild Germany and Japan. We didn't try to annihilate their societies and take over property and ownership.
What I was saying about the war, is that God has no mandate for anyone now days to go in and make war with a country and just go in and punish them by killing the vast majority of the population. Doesn't mean we can't go to war to defend innocents or defend ourselves. Just that the goal is to do those things, NOT to kill people. Now if you MUST kill some people to accomplish that, so be it. Preferable would be their surrender without killing any. Not usually reality, so go kill who you have to in order to accomplish the goal. According to God as portrayed in the Bible, no sin in that.
(BUT, even though at war, STILL no unnecessary killing or brutality. No punitive behavior. No masochistic behavior. Just the force necessary to do the job).
IP: Logged
02:08 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
so, what about war to avoid financial loss? is that OK?
just razzin. its easy to pull out the "justified" examples. but, most wars just are not so. thats why I was saying, maybe should use a different term - like crusade or jihad.
I don't get why theres always a fuss over the people who may be trying to be better (I.E. religious people) screwing up. I know everyone knows this, we all screw up,
It is a mistake in the big picture.
I don't think the fuss is over people trying to be better. I think the fuss is over people who SAY they are religious, and SHOULD be trying to be better, but they aren't trying. Yet they look down on the "non-religious". Or, they are "religious" when it benefits them to be religious, but don't want to act "religious" when it gets in the way of what they want to do.
And most people don't make "A" mistake, as in singular. They make multiple self-serving CHOICES, not, oops, made a mistake. They just like to call it a "mistake" to minimize the seriousness of it AND their responsibility in it. Like it just happened. No. Usually it is a conscious DECISION or series of decisions.
FrugalFiero, a lot of people are bugged by the same thing. Ultimately, you have to face the question--did Jesus Christ ALL BY HIMSELF do enough to earn salvation from hell for any sinner, and can He gift that to someone on His own terms, OR does a sinner have to contribute any part of getting out of hell?
The situation you mentioned "isn't fair." Indisputable. Absolutely isn't fair in any way. The question is: does the Bible say it is based on FAIRNESS? Or does it repeatedly talk about GRACE (an undeserved gift)? Leading the witness, your honor. OK. Guilty.
Your portrayal of a Sunday morning would be misleading to some, though. Heed the altar call and announce acceptance and really believe it doesn't represent the seriousness due to leaving out a few words (not intentionally deceptive in any way. Not accusing you at all.).
Here is what it means:
do you admit you are a sinner (not a mistake maker. Not an 'oops-er'. You consciously, knowingly, intentionally have done evil. Not kind of bad. Evil)
do you admit that because of that, you DESERVE to go to Hell. Have it coming to you. Really SHOULD go there.
NOTHING you have done or will do in the future would make up for the evil you have done.
Being absolutely without any hope, you agree that Jesus when He was dying on the cross suffered indescribable pain, agony, shame, etc. DUE TO Him getting what should have been done to you for what evil you have done in your life.
AND, your sin wasn't "overlooked", it just was paid for by Jesus doing that. And since He paid for it, and since He is willing to as a GIFT (which by definition is NOT deserved), you admit to Him that you can't do anything about your evil and deserve to go to Hell but since He paid for it and offered it to you, you will accept that gift ALONE as your way to heaven.
Now if THAT is what you are talking about, and ONLY that, then, yes, the Bible says you will go to Heaven.
But you hedge or weasel on ANY of those points, it is unacceptable.
AND if you really believe that and act on it, you will not cheapen that by just going out afterward and doing whatever you want because you have a "get out of jail free card". If that is your attitude, you didn't really think about what you just said.
IP: Logged
02:44 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Metatron: Human beings have neither the aural nor the psychological capacity to withstand the awesome power of God's true voice. Were you to hear it, your mind would cave in and your heart would explode within your chest. We went through five Adams before we figured that one out.
Loki: Church laws are fallible because they're created by man.
Bartleby: You know, here's what I don't get about you. You know for a fact that there is a God. You have been in his presence. He's spoken to you personally, and yet I just heard you claim to be an atheist. Loki: I just like to fugg with the clergy, man. I just love it. I just love to keep those guys on their toes.
Bartleby: You know, maybe you're wrong about this slaughter thing. How can you even be sure what incurs the Lord's wrath these days? Times change. I remember when eating meat on a Friday was supposed to be a Hell-worthy trespass. Loki: The major sins never change. Besides, you know, I can spot a commandment-breaker from, like, a mile away. So, bet on it. Bartleby: This from the guy who still owes me 10 bucks over that bet about what was gonna be the bigger movie - "E. T. " or "Krush Groove"? Loki: You know, fugg you, man, 'cause time's gonna tell on that one. [brief pause] Loki: What, are you insinuating that I don't have what it takes anymore? Bartleby: Insinuating, no. Flat-out telling you.
Serendipity: Leave it to the Catholics to destroy existence.
Bethany: You were martyred? Rufus: That's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it would be to say that I was bludgeoned to death by huge fugging rocks.
Bethany: I don't want this, it's too big. Metatron: That's what Jesus said. Yes, I had to tell him. And you can imagine how that hurt the Father - not to be able to tell the Son Himself because one word from His lips would destroy the boy's frail human form? So I was forced to deliver the news to a scared child who wanted nothing more than to play with other children. I had to tell this little boy that He was God's only Son, and that it meant a life of persecution and eventual crucifixion at the hands of the very people He came to enlighten and redeem. He begged me to take it back, as if I could. He begged me to make it all not true. And I'll let you in on something, Bethany, this is something I've never told anyone before... If I had the power, I would have.
Rufus: White folks only want to hear the good shizz: life eternal, a place in God's Heaven. But as soon as they hear they're getting this good shizz from a black Jesus, they freak. And that, my friends, is called hypocrisy. A black man can steal your stereo, but he can't be your Savior.
Rufus: He likes to listen to people talk. Says it sounds like music to Him. Christ loved to sit around the fire and listen to me and the other guys. Whenever we were going on about unimportant shizz, He always had a smile on His face.
Rufus: The Man loved being human. Probably why He was so good at it.
Bartleby: The humans have besmirched everything bestowed on them. They were given Paradise, they threw it away. They were given this planet, they destroyed it. They were favored best among all His endeavors, and some of them don't even believe He exists. And in spite of it all, He's shown them infinite fugging patience at every turn. What about us? I asked you... once to lay down the sword because I felt sorry for them. What was the result? Our expulsion from Paradise. Where was his infinite fugging patience then? It's not right, it's not fair. We've paid our debt. Don't you think it's time? Don't you think its time we went home? and to do that, I think we have to dispatch of our would-be dispatchers.
Loki: Do you know what makes a human being decent? Fear. And therein lies the problem. None of you has anything left to fear anymore. You rest comfortably in seats of inscrutable power, hiding behind your false idols, far from judgment, lives shrouded in secrecy even from one another. But not from God.
Bartleby: You are responsible for raising an icon which draws worship from the Lord. You have broken the first commandment. Not only that, I'm afraid not a one of you passes for a decent human being. Your continued existence is a mockery of morality. Like you, Mr. Burton. Last year cheated on your wife of 17 years 8 times. You even had sex with her best friend while you were supposed to be home watching the kids. Loki: In the bed that you and your wife share, no less.
Bartleby: Mr. Newman - you got your girlfriend drunk at last year's Christmas party and then paid a kid from the mail room to have sex with her while she was passed out, just so you could break up with her guilt-free when she sobbingly confessed in the morning. She killed herself two months later. Mr. Brace disowned his gay son. Very compassionate, Mr. Brace. Mr. Ray put his mother in a third-rate nursing home and then used the profits from the sale of her home to buy an oriental rug for himself. Heavens. Mr. Barker flew to Thailand on the company account to have sex with an eleven year old boy. Mr. Holtzman okayed the production of Mooby Dolls from materials he knew to be toxic and unsafe, because it was - survey says? - less costly.
[sees the female board member] Bartleby: You, on the other hand, are an innocent. You lead a good life. Good for you. But you, Mr. Whitland, you have more skeletons in your closet than the rest of this assembled party. I cannot even mention them aloud. [whispers something in Whitland's ear] Loki: You're his father, you sick fugg. [Whitland starts crying]
Serendipity: When are you people going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up.
Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shizz that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it. Bethany: You're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing? Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-20-2007).]
IP: Logged
02:50 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
its easy to pull out the "justified" examples. but, most wars just are not so. thats why I was saying, maybe should use a different term - like crusade or jihad.
Hey, no argument with that.
If you change war to crusade or jihad, my answer changes to a definitive no way.
And that is why I wanted to hear what ryan.hess had to say. What really triggered the question? There is a good chance that I am just as appalled by the behavior, and just as critical of it.
And if we disagree, I still am glad to hear what someone has to say, and we just disagree.
pyrthian, you and I disagree on some things, but probably less than on the surface it seems. Regardless, I always like to hear what you are thinking.
IP: Logged
03:17 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003