quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: so, what about war to avoid financial loss? is that OK? just razzin. its easy to pull out the "justified" examples. but, most wars just are not so. thats why I was saying, maybe should use a different term - like crusade or jihad.

One of my core beliefs is that there truly is no real "right" or "wrong". There is just "different". Isn't justification only a matter of perception? We may not have considered Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor to be justified, but obviously someone someplace did, or it never would have happened. We regard the attacks on the WTC to have been completely unprovoked and inexcusable. Yet, it's clear that at least some people who were willing to sacrifice their very lives to carry out a mission believed it was justified and even necessary. At least a few people believed an attack on Iraq's dictatorship was justified, as were any other attacks in the middle east. So who's sense of justice is the "right" one? It seems to be purely a matter of perception.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: ...... And KILLING OF HUMANS is clearly and explicitly allowed in the Bible. War and capitol punishment. Allowed. Intentional, premeditated killing=murder. Strictly prohibited. ......

this is what got me going on the war stuff. I was surprised by war being fine.
yes, we have had the "good wars" - like stopping the Nazi's and such. but, most wars have not been that noble. not even close. most have been racist & genocide based.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: One of my core beliefs is that there truly is no real "right" or "wrong". There is just "different". Isn't justification only a matter of perception? We may not have considered Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor to be justified, but obviously someone someplace did, or it never would have happened. We regard the attacks on the WTC to have been completely unprovoked and inexcusable. Yet, it's clear that at least some people who were willing to sacrifice their very lives to carry out a mission believed it was justified and even necessary. At least a few people believed an attack on Iraq's dictatorship was justified, as were any other attacks in the middle east. So who's sense of justice is the "right" one? It seems to be purely a matter of perception.

I wonder why people don't GET that?!

In my OWN mind, the wars that are TRULY evil, the one's that are NOT subjective (or is it objective, i get those two mixed up), are the ones based on "Ethnic Cleansing".
How can you justify a war for the purpose of getting rid of a WHOLE race (don't know if "race" is the correct word) of people, simply becouse they ARE that race?! (don't know if "race" is the correct word)
American Indian, Jews, Tutsi, etc.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-20-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: this is what got me going on the war stuff. I was surprised by war being fine. yes, we have had the "good wars" - like stopping the Nazi's and such. but, most wars have not been that noble. not even close. most have been racist & genocide based.

Even in the Wars against Nazi Germany, there were, IMHO, only 2 % who deserved to die..the others who were killed were just ordinary people on BOTH sides, who did not deserve to be tortured, injured or killed. Nowadays, the 'fighters' are fanatics, and believe in what they are killing for, and enjoy it.
You only have to see that report about how the German and British soldiers held a short 'truce' on the frontlines, and joined together to play a game of cricket..or was it football..share a cigarette....no matter.The TRUE feelings about the War surfaced for a short while, on BOTH sides.They weren´t killing machines..they were just caught up in a few maniacs´personal aspirations, and many were brainwashed, simple people who believed what they were being spoonfed..or were just too scared NOT to fight. The deaths of soldiers on soldiers were not acts of murder by the soldiers..they were acts of murder by proxy, instigated by meglomaniacs, and just plain maniacs.With too much power(read FEAR) over PEOPLE.
Nick

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I wonder why people don't GET that?! In my OWN mind, the wars that are TRULY evil, the one's that are NOT subjective (or is it objective, i get those two mixed up), are the ones based on "Ethnic Cleansing". How can you justify a war for the purpose of getting rid of a WHOLE race (don't know if "race" is the correct word) of people, simply becouse they ARE that race?! (don't know if "race" is the correct word) American Indian, Jews, Tutsi, etc.

As hard as any of it is to swallow, it's all relative. Hitler thought he was doing what was in the best interest of his people. None of that is to say that I condone any of those actions. I often find myself in conflict having that belief, because while I can understand why terrorists drove planes into the WTC buildings, I can't agree with it, and my sense of patriotism, or self preservation sort of forces me to choose a side, which often conflicts with my spiritual beliefs. Anthony DeMello used to talk about borders and the separation of countries and how arbitrary that is. He used to say that if he found himself on a mountain somewhere and could look over and see the border of his country, what made his country any different from where he was? Why would he wish to be over there? Just because it was "his country?" My explanation isn't quite as eloquent as his, but maybe you get the idea. Anyway, it's just another example of how arbitrary we are, and how our perception and *conditioning* cause us to make decisions that are often based on nothing.

Wow.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, why I mentioned financial loss. we were blockadeing & starving out japan.

After the Japanese had advanced in China, killing as many as 1.000,000 Chinese (numbers vary, but it's known that by the time they got to Nanking over 400,000 civilians, not soldiers, had been killed) in the process, and set up bases throughout Asia including Vietnam and in areas that made OUR bases in the Phillipines and Malaysia within reach of their aircraft and Navy. At that time, the emperor was a figurehead of a militaristic government that was bent on expansion and dictatorial rule over China and all of the south Pacific. Yes, the US embargoed them by refusing to sell them oil and steel. As did Great Britain and most of the rest of Europe. What else should have been done?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and, to the WTC stuff...remember slim pickin's riding the nuke? he's a hero for that.

He is (was)? The entire movie was a satire on the cold war and most all of the characters were also satirical. I'll grant he gained noteriety in the role, but a hero? No. I always looked at his character as not much more sane than Dr. Strangelove himself.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - what they attacked was a monument to greed. even here - a sin. even how the tragedy is reported shows this. they only mention the firefighters - and skip over the actual people who worked in them buildings. the people who sell off peoples livelyhoods for few extra sheckles. corporate lawyers. bank street traders. people who make more in week than most of will make all year.

You know, YOU make more in a week than most of the people in the world do in a year. Does that mean we should not shed a tear at your demise? Class envy and class warfare is no excuse for evil. There are people on this forum that lost friends, good friends, in the WTC attack that are biting their lips right now at your uncaring, unfeeling, and totally inaccurate classification of the people that worked in that building.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: who enjoyed watching the lawyer get eatin in jurassic park? so - we hear about the poor firefighters. risking (and losing) their lives for meager pay.

Most that enjoyed watching the "lawyer" get "eatin" in the movie didn't enjoy it because he was a lawyer, but because he was a jerk and acting like one.

It's fascinating to me, the lack of history. I'm guessing (wildly) that you aren't 30 yet. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. Here's a newsflash for you. There IS evil out there. There are truly BAD PEOPLE out in the world. If not resisted, they would enslave the entire world. Right now, the most visible of those are the extremist muslims. It wasn't always that way, at one point it was the Nazi's and the Japanese EMPIRE. (EMPIRE is what THEY called themselves, not something made up by the press) Before that it was many people. The Mongol hordes under Ghengis Khan. The Roman Emperors (some of them, not all). The list goes on and on through history.

It's not a matter of perspective. It's a matter of good and evil. Tyranny and oppression vs. Freedom of choice. It will always be like this.

John Stricker

yes john there are evil people
and many of them go to church
saddly the right wing god boys in our own government
are evil, do evil and claim god is on their side while they do it

facts are there is no god
christian religion was invented by saul/paul
and the man you call JC was a jew

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: yes john there are evil people and many of them go to church

No argument from me.

quote Originally posted by ray b: saddly the right wing god boys in our own government are evil, do evil and claim god is on their side while they do it

There you go, making generalizations which you can't support or prove. What else is new?

quote Originally posted by ray b: facts are there is no god christian religion was invented by saul/paul and the man you call JC was a jew

Not a fact, your opinion.

But you do have a history of confusing the two. I believe in God, and state it just that way. It's my belief. My faith. I don't say that it is a FACT. There is a difference and, as you've found out before, I really don't need a lesson on theology from you.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by ray b: christian religion was invented by saul/paul and the man you call JC was a jew

saul/paul was a jew, too.

Boondawg, I wanted to expand on the lying thing and why it is important to me. It affects my daily behavior. Since I don't want to put myself in a position where I am tempted to lie, I try not to say things about anyone in private that I would be embarrassed if anyone heard in public. I try not to do things in private that I would be embarrassed if it was found out in public. I would be tempted to lie my way out of it. Hopefully and generally wouldn't lie my way out of it. But better to not get in the position of even wanting to.

Appreciated your comments, too, even if I didn't agree with every single one of them.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: ....

to tough to quote broken up stuff - so - not gonna....
yes, I know WHY they was being blockaded - whatever - but - they were, correct?
well, hero is subjective. the pic lives on. its currently ont he forum right now - which made me think of it. there are other examples of self sacrafice, and the person being thought of as a hero.
no, it sure aint. but - going back to what this thread is about - sin/10 commandments - greed is one of them. not sure about envy? again, just pointing at a monument to both. sorry. just like all the poeple who feel bad when called "losers". sorry y'all feel bad.
he was acting like a stereotypical sniviling lawyer, yes.
not lack of history - just a very bad off sided presentation of history.
yes - I intentionally presented it that way. just to offset the inaccurate way these events are presented to me.

Too much water under this bridge for me to get involved but I have read it all.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I think people just take the parts of the Bible that suits them, to their OWN ends, at the given time. At least thats what I see most of the time. Am I just seeing wrong? No, really, AM I?

Regarding the above quote and the thread topic....
I can only speak for myself. It is true that many interpret the Bible differently. For many reasons. Many are young in their christian lives and are ignorant in the true meaning(s). Some are misguided. Some do it for selfish reasons (I believe your observed experiences Boondawg). Some for justification, vindication, even hope and many other reasons probably.
Myself, I rely upon the Holy Ghost to guide my interpretations. Prayer also that I will receive the blessings of the Word.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I ask Christians here - how does this stand with you?

I am not here to judge. Except of myself. The Bible does say to give a thief the shirt off your back but it does not say when. I would have stopped those burglars also and possibly even shot them. If I had to. Waterbording/torture ? I feel mixed on this but am told by the Bible to submit to out leaders as God has placed them in charge. Which does not mean place blind trust in. It is said in the Bible to do unto thy neighbor as you would have him do to you. Terroristic practices create terror just as waterbording. Torture is in the eye of the beholder. It may produce some factual results and some what ever needs to be said. Their is no greater torture than having ones loved one killed or under the threat of death, to live in fear.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: ..... Regarding the above quote and the thread topic.... I can only speak for myself. It is true that many interpret the Bible differently. For many reasons. Many are young in their christian lives and are ignorant in the true meaning(s). Some are misguided. Some do it for selfish reasons (I believe your observed experiences Boondawg). Some for justification, vindication, even hope and many other reasons probably. Myself, I rely upon the Holy Ghost to guide my interpretations. Prayer also that I will receive the blessings of the Word. .....

lol - yes - we cant even interpet the consitiution accurately, and it was written just a few years ago, and in our language

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: nope. facts are - YOU havent found god but, dont feel bad - most havent. especially the religous.....funny how that works

If god is a fact then you should be able to easily prove it right? Until then god is not a fact.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: If god is a fact then you should be able to easily prove it right? Until then god is not a fact.

and what if I dont care? I can prove the existance of god, yet just plain old dont care to? what ya gonna do then? huh? lol
na na na na boo boo

lets see you prove YOU exist? prove to me - not to yourself....

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and what if I dont care? I can prove the existance of god, yet just plain old dont care to? what ya gonna do then? huh? lol na na na na boo boo lets see you prove YOU exist? prove to me - not to yourself....

The simple fact I typed this and you read it is proof I exists. But if you don't want to prove what you say you can I'll just dismiss your alleged "facts" as misguided delusional opinion.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: The simple fact I typed this and you read it is proof I exists.

Let's ask Megan.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: The simple fact I typed this and you read it is proof I exists. But if you don't want to prove what you say you can I'll just dismiss your alleged "facts" as misguided delusional opinion.

nope. that may prove it to yourself - but this could easily have been typed by a small group of people, a illegal immigrant mexican, a muslim extremists, etc.
and, I do have a wide collection of misguided delusional opinions, and I will put this one right back in its box.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: nope. that may prove it to yourself - but this could easily have been typed by a small group of people, a illegal immigrant mexican, a muslim extremists, etc. and, I do have a wide collection of misguided delusional opinions, and I will put this one right back in its box.

It proves it to you. If I didn't exist then I wouldn't have been able to type it so you can read. No mater who I may be.

how many people typed this message?

If you don't have the faculties to know the existance of God then there is no way to prove it to you.

Once you obtain the faculties and know the existance of God then there is no way to disprove it to you.

I don't plan on completing my study of God till I die but I believe Faith is a required faculty to know God.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: how many people typed this message?

It doesn't mater. It proves that one or more people who did type it do exist.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: It proves that one or more people who did type it do exist.

No, it does not. .

quote Originally posted by Phranc: It doesn't mater. It proves that one or more people who did type it do exist.

lol - stuburn man. it only proves something exists which is creating these messages. by that thinking, the Bible - AKA - The Word of God would be prove enough?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Appreciated your comments, too, even if I didn't agree with every single one of them.

In the last week, I have been really struck by comments like the one above.
The art of a mature, respectfull debate.
And about RELIGION, no less!
Arguably the toughest subject around.
Refreshing!

Now, if the REST of the World would follow suit, without getting all pissy.....................................

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Taijiguy:


One of my core beliefs is that there truly is no real "right" or "wrong". There is just "different". Isn't justification only a matter of perception? QUOTE]

That is scary, I know what you mean about two sides of a story, but there is definately a right and wrong. Its shocking how many people think there may not be. Really though if you think about it hard enough I don't see how anyone coudl come to teh conclusion that there is not right and wrong.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: In the last week, I have been really struck by comments like the one above. The art of a mature, respectfull debate. And about RELIGION, no less! Arguably the toughest subject around. Refreshing! Now, if the REST of the World would follow suit, without getting all pissy.....................................

yes, frontal lobe is a class guy.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, frontal lobe is a class guy.

Unless you count his "A-Team" underoos................

"I pity da' foo!"

thats right! spiderman underroos rule!

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: One of my core beliefs is that there truly is no real "right" or "wrong".

For those do not believe in 'right' or 'wrong': If that is truly the case, then what complaint can any of you have if someone decided to kill children in a school yard, just for fun? Or what about ethnic 'cleansing'? Or what about 'gay bashing'? Or what about stealing from _you_. If there is no objective standard by which to measure 'right' and 'wrong', wouldn't it be reasonable that all behavior, however personally distasteful it may seem, would be OK?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol - stuburn man. it only proves something exists which is creating these messages. by that thinking, the Bible - AKA - The Word of God would be prove enough?

So the bible is writing in real time? And responding to you? The bible only proves that some one wrote it.

quote Originally posted by dsnover: For those do not believe in 'right' or 'wrong': If that is truly the case, then what complaint can any of you have if someone decided to kill children in a school yard, just for fun? Or what about ethnic 'cleansing'? Or what about 'gay bashing'? Or what about stealing from _you_. If there is no objective standard by which to measure 'right' and 'wrong', wouldn't it be reasonable that all behavior, however personally distasteful it may seem, would be OK?

I understand when someone says there really IS no right or wrong, concrete.
It's all subjective.

One country says it's allright to marry 13 year olds.
One country says it is not.
The Bible says it is.

Who's right?
Whoever's in charge?
The majority?

I don't know.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So the bible is writing in real time? And responding to you? The bible only proves that some one wrote it.

hmm, so I cease to exist when I stop responding, eh? good stuff. and, you have yet to prove you exist, and I am not just typing at a Bot.

"I think, therefor, I am" that only proves it to yourself. but, I will continue with the thought that you do exist, even tho you cant prove it....

I tend to believe we only exsist becouse there is someone to WITNESS that exsistence.

If there were only 2 people on the planet, and one died, the other would immediately disappear.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I understand when someone says there really IS no right or wrong, concrete. It's all subjective. One country says it's allright to marry 13 year olds. One country says it is not. The Bible says it is. Who's right? Whoever's in charge? The majority? I don't know.

Depends on what your are looking for. If someone is just looking for someone to tell them what is right and wrong they might get screwed up. POwer corrupts humans, and humans in power make the laws.
I think your example is a good one, you seem to have the thought that it is not right to marry a 13 year old no matter who tells you it is ok, I think you chose wisely. But right and wrong exist and are concrete, we are interpreting them, and we are not flawless. Just because something is legal or even accepted as a normal everyday occurance everyone does, doesn't mean it is not wrong. There are many legal things that are wrong.

Even if you don't believe in the ten commandments, everyone is born with a "concience" and until it is dulled or beaten into submission it does let you know things are wrong, it just won't stop you if your will is to do it anyway.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-21-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: everyone is born with a "concience" and until it is dulled or beaten into submission it does let you know things are wrong, it just won't stop you if your will is to do it anyway.

It's your contention then that everyone has a concience?
They just ignor or overide it?

I'm thinking of some serial killers (sociopaths?) who experts say really don't know that what they are doing is wrong, sometimes becouse they can only see people as "objects".
The result of a chemical imbalance coulpled with tramatic abuse at an early age.
See the last installment of the "Iceman" series.
Those 2 things made him the "perfect" hitman.
He had absolutly NO feelings about killing.
No pleasure, no pain, no guilt, nothing.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: hmm, so I cease to exist when I stop responding, eh? good stuff. and, you have yet to prove you exist, and I am not just typing at a Bot. "I think, therefor, I am" that only proves it to yourself. but, I will continue with the thought that you do exist, even tho you cant prove it....

When did I say you stopped to exist when you stopped posting? Thats right I didn't. And I have proven I exist. You just don't want to admit it. Even if I were a bot it is still proof I exist, if only as a bot.

Why would they disappear?

If we launched an astronaut into deep space for research and after a decade or two, had no way of communicating with him, and vice versa, would he disappear? No.
(He would most likely go insane, but he would not cease to exist.)

A human is made up of matter. The first law of thermodynamics says that matter (or energy) can neither be created or destroyed. That matter would not cease to exist.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I tend to believe we only exsist becouse there is someone to WITNESS that exsistence. If there were only 2 people on the planet, and one died, the other would immediately disappear.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I understand when someone says there really IS no right or wrong, concrete. It's all subjective. One country says it's allright to marry 13 year olds. One country says it is not. The Bible says it is.

Cite your sources?

Are we "wrongfully" imprisoning pedophiles for doing something that is in the Bible? And if so, why are the "majority" not marrying at 13? It implies the majority separated from the teachings of the Bible.......... but I already covered that on post #1. Jesus doesn't say "Be good to others unless they're bad.... then it's okay to be bad" he says "Be good to others........ EVEN those in prison!" (judged by man to be "bad")