quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ya know...stealing is another tough one.....how can stealing ever actually be "wrong"? especially if you are under the idea that god provides all. this would imply that NOONE owns anything, so anyone claiming ownership of anything would in fact be stealing from everyone.

Biblical answer is that abundantly describes individual ownership of what God has created. Gives incentive of things He wants people to do. Hard work. Stewardship. Gives opportunity to express love and sacrifice. You freely give something that you have authority or ownership over to someone else. That is loving. Gives opportunity to reveal selfishness. Gives opportunity to reveal priorities. Gives opportunity to express satisfaction with what you have and that God has given you. Theft expresses dissatisfaction with God has given you. Lots of very important, good things ownership helps reveal to oneself.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Edit: I just noticed this and had to comment: Did Jesus follow, or did he lead? Did he just conform to the popular ideas of the time, or did he blaze his own trail? WWJD?

Christ followed God, but nobody else. He conformed to very few popular ideas. He welcomed those that the current society shunned, when his followers tried to make the children leave when he was teaching, he rebuked them, the performed miracles to fulfill the prophesies of the old testament. He commanded his followers to do many things and instructed them in how to lead their lives and, most importantly, with his death he brought redemption to the world.

While Ray is right that Jesus didn't write any of the books in the new testament, his immediate followers did. His disciples that were with him at the time wrote his history in the form of gospel accounts and theological history. His half brother James wrote a letter that is now the book of James to the Jewish Christians after they were dispersed by persecution. James half brother Jude wrote a general letter to Christians which is the book of Jude about exposing false teachers and contending for the faith. The idea that these were written long after Christ had ascended and by those that had no first hand knowledge or meeting of Christ is wrong.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Biblical answer is that abundantly describes individual ownership of what God has created. Gives incentive of things He wants people to do. Hard work. Stewardship. Gives opportunity to express love and sacrifice. You freely give something that you have authority or ownership over to someone else. That is loving. Gives opportunity to reveal selfishness. Gives opportunity to reveal priorities. Gives opportunity to express satisfaction with what you have and that God has given you. Theft expresses dissatisfaction with God has given you. Lots of very important, good things ownership helps reveal to oneself.

I am having a hard time reading/understanding this
as far as I know, god has RARELY given a specific person a specific object.
and, as far as I know - god has only given jews stuff, never a christian or a muslim.

This really is rediculous, its kind of pointless to try and discuss serious things when some users are here just to make a mess of the post and others respond without reading replies to them. I also noticed what I say must not be getting attention, as there are few responses to my posts. Did I actually answer any questions? I like to try and see things from all peoples point of view as best I can, but some of this is just plain selfish, and the ones posting it probably think it is the opposite.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-30-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: This really is rediculous, its kind of pointless to try and discuss serious things when some users are here just to make a mess of the post and others respond without reading replies to them. I also noticed what I say must not be getting attention, as there are few responses to my posts. Did I actually answer any questions? I like to try and see things from all peoples point of view as best I can, but some of this is just plain selfish, and the ones posting it probably think it is the opposite.

well, there was one of your posts quoted on page 2, and a Q thrown right at ya - no response.
and, yes, I understand how frustrating it is to get "in" the discussion, especially when some of us are going in all sorts of scattered directions....

this your first "religion" thread? they are kinda chaotic......

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: It's your contention then that everyone has a concience? They just ignor or overide it? I'm thinking of some serial killers (sociopaths?) who experts say really don't know that what they are doing is wrong, sometimes becouse they can only see people as "objects". The result of a chemical imbalance coulpled with tramatic abuse at an early age. See the last installment of the "Iceman" series. Those 2 things made him the "perfect" hitman. He had absolutly NO feelings about killing. No pleasure, no pain, no guilt, nothing.

OK I didn't answer it bacause the answer was in what I wrote first. There was even an elude to him recognizing it in his reply... "tramatic abuse at an early age." One of the ways it can be beaten out of you. Maybe he is saying people don't have conciences? Thats a scary thought to be honest. They may be trained to ignore it, or even enjoy the feeling of power ignoring it.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-30-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: OK I didn't answer it bacause the answer was in what I wrote first. There was even an elude to him recognizing it in his reply... "tramatic abuse at an early age." One of the ways it can be beaten out of you. Maybe he is saying people don't have conciences? Thats a scary thought to be honest. They may be trained to ignore it, or even enjoy the feeling of power ignoring it.

yup - and that is one of the tough parts of discussions like this - no one will ever know what is going on in someone else's head. do you think animals have a conscience? I myself would say no, they dont. so, that would imply that it is entirely possible for a person to not have one too. or is it just a offshoot of empathy, which requires imagination?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I am having a hard time reading/understanding this as far as I know, god has RARELY given a specific person a specific object. and, as far as I know - god has only given jews stuff, never a christian or a muslim.

That depends on what you consider your "source" to be. If you consider God to be the source of all things, then everything you possess came from God. You manifested those things into your life, but God is the source.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yup - and that is one of the tough parts of discussions like this - no one will ever know what is going on in someone else's head. do you think animals have a conscience? I myself would say no, they dont. so, that would imply that it is entirely possible for a person to not have one too. or is it just a offshoot of empathy, which requires imagination?

I agree animals do not, animals and people are not the same, animals have instincts. Thats the closest thing they have.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: That depends on what you consider your "source" to be. If you consider God to be the source of all things, then everything you possess came from God. You manifested those things into your life, but God is the source.

either way - at what point does a man get to ignore everyone else, and say "this item is mine"? we have thousands of years of this long chain of possesion, and I'd like to know where this authority comes from, other than "I'll kill if you try to take it from me". which, again would imply that noone actually owns anything, other than thru force and intimidation.

I"m not sure if I understand the question entirely. Are you asking what gives a person the "right" to own or possess anything, or .....?

I just went back and read your comments on the previous page and I *think* I know what you're getting at. And I *think* it is a matter of our own perception of things. There's a really great poem that I believe illustrates my point somewhat. I'm going to see if I can find it.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 11-30-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I"m not sure if I understand the question entirely. Are you asking what gives a person the "right" to own or possess anything, or .....?

lol - I not sure either - just driving down the road, and seeing where it leads. I think it started with the "dont steal" commandment. or, stealing being "bad". somehow, it just seems that by claiming something as yours, you are stealing it.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 11-30-2007).]

The Cookie Thief
by Valerie Cox

A woman was waiting at an airport one night,
With several long hours before her flight.
She hunted for a book in the airport shops.
Bought a bag of cookies and found a place to drop.

She was engrossed in her book but happened to see,
That the man sitting beside her, as bold as could be.
Grabbed a cookie or two from the bag in between,
Which she tried to ignore to avoid a scene.

So she munched the cookies and watched the clock,
As the gutsy cookie thief diminished her stock.
She was getting more irritated as the minutes ticked by,
Thinking, "If I wasn't so nice, I would blacken his eye."

With each cookie she took, he took one too,
When only one was left, she wondered what he would do.
With a smile on his face, and a nervous laugh,
He took the last cookie and broke it in half.

He offered her half, as he ate the other,
She snatched it from him and thought... oooh, brother.
This guy has some nerve and he's also rude,
Why he didn't even show any gratitude!

She had never known when she had been so galled,
And sighed with relief when her flight was called.
She gathered her belongings and headed to the gate,
Refusing to look back at the thieving ingrate.

She boarded the plane, and sank in her seat,
Then she sought her book, which was almost complete.
As she reached in her baggage, she gasped with surprise,
There was her bag of cookies, in front of her eyes.

If mine are here, she moaned in despair,
The others were his, and he tried to share.
Too late to apologize, she realized with grief,
That she was the rude one, the ingrate, the thief.

How many times in our lives,
have we absolutely known
that something was a certain way,
only to discover later that
what we believed to be true ... was not?

I believe we feel the need to possess things, because of fear. Fear that things may not, or will not be replaced. That we "work" for things and earn them. But if we were truly able to let go of our fears, then we could be like the guy in the poem, and give without fear and not worry about possession or loss.

I believe we only have two base emotions, love and fear. And that all of our other emotions can be traced directly back to one of those to base emotions, that everything is rooted in them. If we can discard fear, then we can function from a place of love, which would mean we have no fear of loss.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 11-30-2007).]

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Good point. Totally agree. Is that a bad thing in your opinion? It isn't to me.

Bad thing? Not at all.

It’s going to be a desperate situation when the few facilities we currently have for warehousing the elderly fill up.

As far as I'm concerned, legal euthanasia is the only solution to the huge wave of old sick people which will be hitting our society in 10-15 years or so. If not addressed in this manner, our health care systems will be completely bankrupted.

There will be many, many “accidents”...

quote Originally posted by 2.5: OK I didn't answer it bacause the answer was in what I wrote first. There was even an elude to him recognizing it in his reply... "tramatic abuse at an early age." One of the ways it can be beaten out of you. Maybe he is saying people don't have conciences? Thats a scary thought to be honest. They may be trained to ignore it, or even enjoy the feeling of power ignoring it.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yup - and that is one of the tough parts of discussions like this - no one will ever know what is going on in someone else's head. do you think animals have a conscience? I myself would say no, they dont. so, that would imply that it is entirely possible for a person to not have one too. or is it just a offshoot of empathy, which requires imagination?

I guess i'm eluding to just exactlly where a conscience comes from.
Is it genetic?
Is it taught?
Is it self-built?
Is it chemical?
Is it socital?
Is it Biblical?

I see & hear of so many people doing so many things that make me think, "How can they live with that?!".
"Don't they have a conscience?!"

If they do, and then just learn to live with their conscience throwing up red flags, then it really don't matter if they have one or not, becouse by canceling out the whole positive reason for having one, just to do what they want, they have reduced it's effect to NOT having one.

Conscience is hard to put a finger on.
Is it a warning, a punishment, or both?

Then there is the whole, "killing in a war" thang.

The first one may affect your conscience.
But it gets easier, the more you do it.
Your conscience gets pushed to the background, in order to get the "job at hand" done?
Then, years later, your conscience jumps up out of nowhere, and floors you.
Then others, it never bothers.

And then there are the things you tell yourself, to alieve your conscience, to make the task at hand doable, or to justify a done deal.
"They're evil."
"They're monsters."
Dehumanizing them to justify unconsciencable actions.

And then there are the differences in consciences in cultures.
What is acceptable in some cultures is unconsciencable in others.

So, just what is this conscience thing?

For some, could it be sorta like what the Bible is to other people?
It reminds you of what is right, and what is wrong?
A warning light on your soul?
"WARNING - Damage has just appeared on your soul. What you are feeling is to serve as a reminder not to repeat the action that caused this warning, in the future."

Some people just learn to ignore the warning light, to the point of never seeing it again?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I am having a hard time reading/understanding this as far as I know, god has RARELY given a specific person a specific object. and, as far as I know - god has only given jews stuff, never a christian or a muslim.

Sorry I was confusing. Let me try again.

In the Bible, God created the entire world. When you make something, it obviously belongs to you.

Yet in the Bible, God allows and approves the principle of individual ownership of portions of His creation. So no one can just take any THING on earth and say, "Well, God made everything and since it is His, I can just whatever I want whenever I want" without it being stealing. Just the fact of "Thou shalt not steal", and the obvious context that it is being written to humans, implies God -sanctioned and approved individual human ownership of things that God created.

Much of the end of the book of Deuteronomy deals with civil disputes over ownership.

New testament has it, too.

Here's one short example from Acts chapter 5

1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?


"Sold a possession". That is ownership. "Was it not thine own?" That is, didn't you OWN it.

I'm not saying God is going to supernaturally give things to you now. I am saying you make something with your own hands, you work and they pay you for it. You own it. Someone else, as in your example, comes along and says well everything belongs to God because ultimately it was made from His creation, so it is His, so therefore I can take it. No. God describes individual ownership and taking it without permission is stealing.

Is that what you were getting at? I'm trying to understand what your confusion on ownership is. (again, in a biblical sense of ownership)

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Sorry I was confusing. Let me try again. In the Bible, God created the entire world. When you make something, it obviously belongs to you. Yet in the Bible, God allows and approves the principle of individual ownership of portions of His creation. So no one can just take any THING on earth and say, "Well, God made everything and since it is His, I can just whatever I want whenever I want" without it being stealing. Just the fact of "Thou shalt not steal", and the obvious context that it is being written to humans, implies God -sanctioned and approved individual human ownership of things that God created. Much of the end of the book of Deuteronomy deals with civil disputes over ownership. New testament has it, too. Here's one short example from Acts chapter 5 1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? "Sold a possession". That is ownership. "Was it not thine own?" That is, didn't you OWN it. I'm not saying God is going to supernaturally give things to you now. I am saying you make something with your own hands, you work and they pay you for it. You own it. Someone else, as in your example, comes along and says well everything belongs to God because ultimately it was made from His creation, so it is His, so therefore I can take it. No. God describes individual ownership and taking it without permission is stealing. Is that what you were getting at? I'm trying to understand what your confusion on ownership is. (again, in a biblical sense of ownership)

I dunno what I am getting at - just trying to get to the bottomof "theft", and when is it good, and when is it bad.

the USA. who did god give it to? or, was it stolen? there are plenty of people who claim ownship of many peices of it. and, there are many people who claim ownship of things removed from it. as far as I can tell - god has NOTHING to with these claims. they seem to be completely based on threats.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yup - and that is one of the tough parts of discussions like this - no one will ever know what is going on in someone else's head. do you think animals have a conscience? I myself would say no, they dont. so, that would imply that it is entirely possible for a person to not have one too. or is it just a offshoot of empathy, which requires imagination?

Animals have some intellect. So do humans. Animals have emotions. So do humans. Animals have a will. So do humans. See, we are just alike. No, it raises the possibility that we are alike in every area.

Turns out humans have a conscience, but animal's don't.

You can observe nature. You don't need the Bible on this one. What is your life experience? You've seen humans. Do you have a conscience? Yes. People you've met? Obvious. So why look at animals to compare to in order to determine if a person has a conscience? Of course they do. It just may be that the individual you are looking at has suppressed it so much that it makes you wonder.

Seen an animal have remorse? Never. Sad? Sure. That's an emotion, not remorse. Afraid caused you yelled at it for doing something destructive? Sure. That's an emotion, not remorse. No outward demonstration of a conscience in animals because it doesn't exist.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I believe we only have two base emotions, love and fear. And that all of our other emotions can be traced directly back to one of those to base emotions, that everything is rooted in them. If we can discard fear, then we can function from a place of love, which would mean we have no fear of loss.

I have said that for years.
I spent huge amounts of time tracing actions backwards, to find their emotional base.
I came to the same conclusion.
Only my research boiled it down to ONE.
Fear.

And THAT made me SO SAD for the fate of mankind.
It signaled our demise, as I could not find ONE way we would EVER be able to dump it.
If you believe in evolution, FEAR is what has kept us alive all this time.
In the form of aggression.
It's closest allie.
But now, if we don't dump it, I fear it will destroy us.

Becouse somehow, an imbalance has occured within us.
Our knowlage has evolved faster then our control of our fear.
We know & build things that have NO buisness in the same room as fear.
Things that should not be watched over & controlled by beings & beliefs based in fear.

My fear, is fear itself.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Bad thing? Not at all. It’s going to be a desperate situation when the few facilities we currently have for warehousing the elderly fill up. As far as I'm concerned, legal euthanasia is the only solution to the huge wave of old sick people which will be hitting our society in 10-15 years or so. If not addressed in this manner, our health care systems will be completely bankrupted. There will be many, many “accidents”...

Don't need facilities for warehousing elderly. We already have them. They are called their homes. That is what happened throughout history until around 1960 or 1970. Familes are going to have to take care of their on elderly. Society can't bear the cost of warehousing them in facilities, and why should they have to?

We'll send someone out to the house. Stick in an iv. Hey, family member. Here is the morphine. We'll show you how to do it. Here is how much to give. Start with that. If they are still in pain, you can give them this much more in this time frame. If you have questions, here is the number to call.

"Well they might make a mistake." Correct. What is your point? "Well, they might die if someone makes a mistake." Correct. What is your point? They are terminal. They are going to die soon anyway. If they want euthanasia anyway, and want to die, if you make a mistake and they die sooner than they would have, so what?

That is different than intentionally killing them. That is a genuinely accidental consequence of trying to do something helpful and humane and beneficial.

Some family member might abuse them. Correct. Is society supposed to bankrupt itself by bringing themselves into elderly warehouses to prevent that from ever happening? Some might take the drug themselves. Sure. There a lots of indescribably wicked people out there. It's a problem. It's a lot easier just to intentionally kill them. Absolutely. It's a lot easier to kill unwanted unborn babies, too. And a lot cheaper. It's a lot easier to intentionally kill anyone who has ever committed a crime, too. That's a lot cheaper way to reduce crime than the way we do it now, too. It's a lot easier and cheaper to intentionally kill developmentally disabled people, too. Some of whom are abused by their evil families. It's a lot easier and cheaper to intentionally kill ADD kids, too.

Jump in, anyone, and tell me where we want to stop.

I'm just rambling, Patrick. I'm not imposing ANY of those possibilities on you whatsoever. Wouldn't even imply it. I just mean to acknowledge the difficulties and costs and imperfections and challenges of any situation, and see where people want to draw the line. It will be a VERY interesting thing to watch where the line is drawn when it happens. Because it WILL have to happen, as you accurately point out.

I think my line is a very fair balance of all those issues. It's interesting to see where other thoughtful people put it.

Boondawg, ya I get where you are coming from. Warning light is a great analogy. Remember walking by that cookie jar, thinking I want a cookie but it will spoil my appetite for dinner, (when you are old enough to think that far). The thought that it will spoil yuor appetite, or make mom mad, or mom said not to, is your warning light. Kinda like that.
Here we go...but I think god built a concience into us so we have a fighting chance to know right from wrong, however not just traumatic experiences or ignoring it ruins it. Being taught things by your parents ruins it too in my opinion. I.E. racist parents *sometimes* end up with racist kids.

Pyrthian, I believe people are not animals. I believe the bible says the same, but even if there were no bible I would say people are not the same as animals.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-30-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I have said that for years. I spent huge amounts of time tracing actions backwards, to find their emotional base. I came to the same conclusion. Only my research boiled it down to ONE. Fear. And THAT made me SO SAD for the fate of mankind. It signaled our demise, as I could not find ONE way we would EVER be able to dump it. If you believe in evolution, FEAR is what has kept us alive all this time. In the form of aggression. It's closest allie. But now, if we don't dump it, I fear it will destroy us. Becouse somehow, an imbalance has occured within us. Our knowlage has evolved faster then our control of our fear. We know & build things that have NO buisness in the same room as fear. Things that should not be watched over & controlled by beings & beliefs based in fear.

Fear of starving, being in prison camps, or? I would blame it more on the side of greed and selfishness. Fear (afraid) is what people are of the person in power who has greed and selfishness I suppose.

I will say our ability to do many things has faaaar outpaced our mental ability to act responsibly with those abilities.

I wouldn't have revived this thread for this, but I recently read something that really started to make me think. It was an editorial about how religion and religious references are being stripped from so many traditional celebrations and holidays. And in the article the writer made some less than admiring comments about non-traditional religions. At one point referring to them as "feel-good" and later suggesting that since they don't focus on an ultimate punishment that they were somehow condoning the concept of one not being responsible for their actions.
How absurd can one idiot be???!!!
OK. Feel-good religion? Wow, how dare we actually feel GOOD about our church! Man, do *I* have some ass doing that! Yes, (by God) I think I need to trot right out and find me one of those feel-CRAPPY traditional religions, where everyone is afraid of their God. What have I been thinking!?
And how does not believing in Satan or Hell have anything to do with personal responsibility? Punishment and responsibility are NOT the same thing. I wonder how many guys serving prison sentences are denying doing anything to deserve to be there. So they're being punished, but I doubt most are taking any kind of responsibility.
In fact, one of the main concepts of my (feel-good) church is that you are ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens to you in your life, without exception. That doesn't mean we have to believe in some red horned dude with a tail and trident. He don't exist (to us) but personal responsibility is alive and well in our church.
Some people just say stupid things.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 12-04-2007).]

True the person was out of line in some areas. What happens in what you believe if you are "bad" during your life?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: .... Pyrthian, I believe people are not animals. I believe the bible says the same, but even if there were no bible I would say people are not the same as animals.

I think I pulled that out as a comparison for finding "the conscience". people are animals, technicaly. and animals are different from each other. a dog is not like a fish. but, both are animals. we have a few things which put us "above" most animals, no doubt about it. but, we still have instincts. we still have the core "lizard brain" - or, as we computer geeks would call it: "BIOS". we are mammals. a subset of animals. but, either way - doesnt really matter....it will change my days none.....

I find that most things which have to do with "manners" and "being polite" is the avoidance of anything which reminds others that we are in fact animals. basicly "covering up" bodily functions.

True on the covering up thing, but just because animals and humans both fart.... I guess I was saying that Humans have souls with destinations after death, animals do not, according to my belief.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: True the person was out of line in some areas. What happens in what you believe if you are "bad" during your life?

Then you suffer during your life, and it depends on how each person defines "bad".

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 12-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: True on the covering up thing, but just because animals and humans both fart.... I guess I was saying that Humans have souls with destinations after death, animals do not, according to my belief.

well, sounds like stuff for another thread: are humans animals?
tho - I am unsure on whether fish fart....?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I think I pulled that out as a comparison for finding "the conscience". people are animals, technicaly. we have a few things which put us "above" most animals, no doubt about it. but, we still have instincts. we still have the core "lizard brain" - or, as we computer geeks would call it: "BIOS". . but, either way - doesnt really matter....it will change my days none..... I find that most things which have to do with "manners" and "being polite" is the avoidance of anything which reminds others that we are in fact animals. basicly "covering up" bodily functions.

We have a lot in common with animals. Many body parts, for example, although significant variation, obviously.

In the "thought" area, we have things in common. Animals and humans both have intelligence. Variable, obviously.

We both have a will. My dog sure does.

We both have emotions.

Humans, though, have something that animals don't. We have a conscience that God can communicate with. Animals do not. And it gives us a sense of wrong.

Manners and politeness IS an evidence that we are different than animals. Nothing wrong with certain functions. Animals will do them wherever. We decide to do them in certain situations. Some for health reasons. But some not for health reasons, but for social.

You mentioned the BIOS. Here's something for you to consider. The default mode of our BIOS is to do wrong. Different individuals have stronger default modes and in different applications then others. But all have wrong as a default mode. We spend a lot of our lives, and our parents spend a lot of our lives, going back into the system settings, and trying to alter the default mode. Sometimes we re-set anyway.

Here is an example of a BIOS. How many lying lessons did you give your children? How many lectures on pouting, or stealing, or picking on others for no reason? They didn't need lessons or lectures. It was their default mode in their inherited BIOS.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Then you suffer during your life, and it depends on how each person defines "bad".

OH you go with Karma, but Karma based on each individuals idea? I forgot also that you don't believe in right and wrong.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-07-2007).]

not sure how to respond ....

I mentioned the "BIOS" as the lizard barin, which handles the basic bodily functions like breathing, heartbeat, digestive, etc.

what you are describing sounds more like the "id" (not "eye dee"). and, yes, the id is VERY selfish.

anyways - are you saying humans are or are not animals?

there has also been evidence that dolphins show compassion, and try to protect other animals from sharks

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: You mentioned the BIOS. Here's something for you to consider. The default mode of our BIOS is to do wrong. Different individuals have stronger default modes and in different applications then others. But all have wrong as a default mode. We spend a lot of our lives, and our parents spend a lot of our lives, going back into the system settings, and trying to alter the default mode. Sometimes we re-set anyway. Here is an example of a BIOS. How many lying lessons did you give your children? How many lectures on pouting, or stealing, or picking on others for no reason? They didn't need lessons or lectures. It was their default mode in their inherited BIOS.

Yeppers.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: not sure how to respond .... what you are describing sounds more like the "id" (not "eye dee"). and, yes, the id is VERY selfish. anyways - are you saying humans are or are not animals? there has also been evidence that dolphins show compassion, and try to protect other animals from sharks

I get it. Yes, the lizard brain BIOS that runs bodily function--we have one, too. I was trying to go beyond that into the "id", and say that the "id" has a BIOS, too, and the pre-programs it runs are often not pretty to live around (or with, too, if you have an active conscience).

Compassion is a nice emotion. Love it. That isn't conscience, though, or right from wrong. Dolphins protect other animals, but they don't go up to the shark and go "naughty shark. That is bad behavior."

What I am saying is we are not identical to animals. I'm saying our conscience makes us significantly different than animals, and that difference is significant enough for me to say, no, we are not animals.

I'm also not sure why someone that doesn't believe God exists would think that humans are NOT animals. It would be interesting for me to hear from someone that doesn't think God is real to tell me why humans are not animals.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I'm also not sure why someone that doesn't believe God exists would think that humans are NOT animals. It would be interesting for me to hear from someone that doesn't think God is real to tell me why humans are not animals.

Hmmmmmmm.
A third choice.
Very interesting indeed!

Normally I wouldn't bring this back from the dead, but I heard a song this weekend that I hadn't heard in quite a while that I always thought was pretty true. It's an old Ray Stevens song. Well, not THAT old I guess, but older than some of the members here.

WOULD JESUS WEAR A ROLEX
(Margaret Archer / Chet Atkins)

Ray Stevens - 1987


Woke up this mornin' turned on my TV set
There in livin' color was somethin' I can't forget
This man was preachin' at me.. yeah.. layin' on the charm
Asking me for 20 with 10,000 on his arm

He wore designer clothing and a big smile on his face
Selling me salvation while they sang Amazing Grace
Asking me for money when he had all the signs of weath
Almost wrote a check out.. yeah.. but then I asked myself…

Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a fancy car
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressing room have a star
If he came back tomorrow there's something I'd like to know
Would Jesus wear a rolex on His television show

Would Jesus be political if he came back to earth
Have his second home in Palm Springs.. yeah.. but try to hide his worth
Take money from those poor folks when He comes back again
And admit He's talked to all those preachers who said they'd been-a talking to Him

Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a fancy car
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressing room have a star
If he came back tomorrow there's something I'd like to know
Could ya tell me - Would Jesus wear a rolex
Would Jesus wear a rolex
Would Jesus wear a rolex on His television show
Would Jesus wear a rolex on His television show


I'd say the answer would be "NO". I think most people that really do try to lead a Christian life would agree.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Turns out humans have a conscience, but animal's don't.

How would you set out to prove or disprove that?

Is a dolphin protecting a human swimmer out of instinct, or out of a genuine sense of doing the right thing?

Is a dog waking it's owner because of a fire instead of running off to save itself any different?

and, formost folk who've had dogs: ever notice when you come home, and the doggy did something bad - and it knows it - how funny it behaves?

the key here being it did something bad - and knows it. or, more likely - it did something it has been punished before for, and knows it. but - noone know what lurks in grey matter.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyrthian:

or, more likely - it did something it has been punished before for, and knows it.QUOTE]

Thats what I think. Learned behavior.