That's two questions. We'll have to charge you extra.

The ultimate goal of being a Christian is to live your life so that it would be pleasing to Christ. We are all dismal failures at this, but the belief in Christ causes in us the need and desire to attempt to do our best to live our lives as He would have us live it.

Beyond that, we have been charged with doing other things as well, and there are differences in that between beliefs. Again, don't think of Christianity as a homogenous thing, it's not. There are major differences between denominations. That said, one thing that IS pretty uniform is that we have been charged with spreading the word of Christ and his salvation to all people. Notice that doesn't mean, at least to ME, shove it down their throats. To me, this is done in two ways. First, if someone inquires, it's my responsibility as a Christian to tell them of the salvation through Christ. Second, if someone is going down what I have been taught to believe is the wrong path, to try to get them off of that path and back on the path to Christ. I can't force them to do this, and I shouldn't, because it's a path they have to choose for themselves. The best way to do it is through example in how I lead my life and how I deal with others.

As to your second question, I can honestly say that I have no desire to "get even" with anyone. Oh, of course, being human, sometimes I'd like to see someone "get theirs", but I try to put those feelings back and realize that's not how Christ would want me to live. As we've discussed before, I used to support the death penalty. Not because of an element of vengeance, but because I believe that it can be a deterrant. However, as we practice the death penalty in this country, with endless appeals, it is not a deterrant and I find myself having little support for it. Likewise, I feel no desire to "get even" with the Muslim extremists. That said, I still believe that had we not had a swift and strong military response to 9/11, we would have seen even MORE terroist acts against our people, Christian or not, both abroad and in this country.

I honestly credit my lack of desire to "get even" with my Christian beliefs. When Christ was on the cross, he was flanked by two criminals also being crucified. According to Luke:

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Christ set the example for us. Believe in him and you will be saved. Accept him as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved.

Again, from Luke:

32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[e] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Christ again set the example for us to follow. Even those that were crucifying him, he begged God to forgive while hanging on the cross.

The desire for vengeance is a human FAILING. The Bible teaches in Romans

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

You also have to remember that as mere mortals, we are not perfect, we are going to fail in many things in the site of the Lord. The Salvation comes from a belief that Christ has already died for our sins and because of that, we try to live a life pleasing to Him. We often don't do that, but it's what we strive for.

Hope that helps some.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Thanks. Here is my question... either to you or anyone else within earshot... Is the ultimate goal of Christianity to create "good" people (that get into heaven)? As I understand it, Christians believe their sins can be absolved. So, is a two-time murderer who is "born again" any worse for wear than any other person? And, how do you reconcile "do unto others" with anything and everything else in the Bible, and man's desire to "get even" - whether it be with terrorists, murderers, thieves . . . ?

Very good explanations John. I think you are representing the Bible in the best way possible. BUT, this is one of the (many) things that bothers me about the good book.

Lets say I for example do not believe in God. According to the bible this is like the ultimate sin. It does not matter how good a person I am, what I do for humanity, etc. IF you don't believe in the allmighty then you are doomed. But if you are a serial rapist pron peddling drug dealer gang banger axe murder living off welfare and not paying taxes...all you have to do is "believe" in God and you will be saved? It just seems hypocritical to say you can be a complete screw off your entire life and then on your death bed say "oh god save me!"

I'm not poking fun or anything, but in my "book" you are judged on past performance, not what you promise to do in the future.

quote Originally posted by sostock: Very good explanations John. I think you are representing the Bible in the best way possible. BUT, this is one of the (many) things that bothers me about the good book. Lets say I for example do not believe in God. According to the bible this is like the ultimate sin. It does not matter how good a person I am, what I do for humanity, etc. IF you don't believe in the allmighty then you are doomed. But if you are a serial rapist pron peddling drug dealer gang banger axe murder living off welfare and not paying taxes...all you have to do is "believe" in God and you will be saved? It just seems hypocritical to say you can be a complete screw off your entire life and then on your death bed say "oh god save me!" I'm not poking fun or anything, but in my "book" you are judged on past performance, not what you promise to do in the future.

A good point, and one I explain in this way: if you are truly Christian, you have all the morals and motivation you could need to guide you to do the right things. Which is why, when I see someone who claims to be Christian but does such things, I do not believe they really understand what Christianity means. A person who truly believed in God and Jesus would want nothing more than to try and please them. At that point it's not even about doing good things to get into heaven (and of course that's good, since the way to heaven, according to the Bible, is not through good works); it's about doing good things because a true Christian wants to do good things for others, because a true Christian is full of love.

Well I'm going to stop typing now as it is 3:15am and I'm not even sure I'm making any sense. Will reply to jstricker and frontal lobe later.

No offense taken. You're mistaken though.

To start, DISBELIEF in God is not the unforgivable sin. Remember the scripture I quoted from 1st Timothy, written by Paul "13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief." What you describe by not believing in God is not being a Blasphemer, at least in my understanding of it. What would do that was for you to KNOW the truth of God and deny him and the Holy Spirit anyway, that would be blasphemy.

As to your second point, it may seem hypocritical but it's a sign of the boundless mercy we have through Christ. You amke it sound as though someone can just cry out for mercy without belief and it will be so. It's really not that easy. After Christ's death on the cross and ressurection, he appeared to his disciples and said

quote 14Afterward(X) he appeared(Y) to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their(Z) unbelief and(AA) hardness of heart, because(AB) they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15And he said to them, (AC) "Go into all the world and(AD) proclaim the gospel to(AE) the whole creation. 16(AF) Whoever believes and is(AG) baptized(AH) will be saved, but(AI) whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And(AJ) these signs will accompany those who believe AK) in my name they will cast out demons;(AL) they will speak in new tongues; 18(AM) they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them;(AN) they will lay their hands(AO) on the sick, and they will recover."

God knows the hearts of man. Because you SAY that you are a believer does not mean that in your heart, you actually do believe.

quote 16"For(AA) God so loved(AB) the world,[i](AC) that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not(AD) perish but have eternal life. 17For(AE) God did not send his Son into the world(AF) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18(AG) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not(AH) believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19(AI) And this is the judgment AJ) the light has come into the world, and(AK) people loved the darkness rather than the light because(AL) their works were evil. 20(AM) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light,(AN) lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever(AO) does what is true(AP) comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Not only does GOD know your heart, but your actions will demonstrate whether you are a believer or not. It can't be any other way. Does that mean that anyone that does NOT believe is Christ is scum? The scourge of the Earth? No, not at all, but your actions as a believer should show through.

Remember, salvation is only available (according to MY faith) through the following:

Believe in your heart that Christ is your Lord and Savior
Be Baptized with the Holy Spirit into the church of Christ
Repent and ask forgiveness of your sins.

Nothing else matters. You can't buy your way into heaven by giving money to the church. You can't kick yourself out, for the most part. You just need to believe and trust in God's compassion and Grace and repent.

Someone several posts ago brought up some of the televangelists and others that while they professed their faith loudly and in public, took people's money while NOT doing the Lord's work and did other, unspeakable things such as fornication, etc., that would be an affront to the Lord. It is MY opinion that while God could forgive in his infinite mercy, these people are treading very dangerously on the line of that Mortal Sin as being a Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It's one thing for you to say "I don't believe and don't understand", it's quite another for a man (or woman) trained in the Lord to behave in such a manner.

It's not for ME to judge them, their judgement is coming and to be honest, when people ask me why I don't get more upset about it that is why, but at least to my understanding of what the Bible teaches us, I wouldn't want to be them and stand before the Lord on judgement day.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by sostock: Very good explanations John. I think you are representing the Bible in the best way possible. BUT, this is one of the (many) things that bothers me about the good book. Lets say I for example do not believe in God. According to the bible this is like the ultimate sin. It does not matter how good a person I am, what I do for humanity, etc. IF you don't believe in the allmighty then you are doomed. But if you are a serial rapist pron peddling drug dealer gang banger axe murder living off welfare and not paying taxes...all you have to do is "believe" in God and you will be saved? It just seems hypocritical to say you can be a complete screw off your entire life and then on your death bed say "oh god save me!" I'm not poking fun or anything, but in my "book" you are judged on past performance, not what you promise to do in the future.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Is the ultimate goal of Christianity to create "good" people (that get into heaven)? As I understand it, Christians believe their sins can be absolved. So, is a two-time murderer who is "born again" any worse for wear than any other person? And, how do you reconcile "do unto others" with anything and everything else in the Bible, and man's desire to "get even" - whether it be with terrorists, murderers, thieves . . . ?

Disclaimer first being true, genuine christianity versus much of or most of what you have experienced in your life. So instead of saying the ultimate goal of Christians, let me answer what is God's ultimate goal.

Now I just put myself in the position of claiming to speak for God. Whoa. Who do I think I am? Good point. That is why I will ONLY give you PRECISELY what the Bible says about God IN CONTEXT, and then you can decide (or not) whether the Bible version of God is real.


God's ultimate goal goes way back to Genesis where God wanted to be with humans face to face--garden of Eden. That's what He wanted.

Sin made that impossible. God is loving, but He is also absolutely perfect and due to His nature, cannot tolerate sin in His presence.

Your question highlights where the major split is between "religions". God's goal now is to have humans get to heaven so we can be face to face again, BUT that can never happen by making people "good enough". Most religions emphasize good works to please God enough to get into heaven. The Bible says that is impossible, and isn't God's goal. Sins have to be paid for, and being good enough doesn't pay for what has already happened. He sent someone that WAS/IS "good enough" (and since God is perfect, the only thing good enough is absolute perfection and never sinning) and then had that person take the punishment that was coming to us (or rapists or murderers). That would be the messiah. The messiah turned out to be Jesus (the) Christ.

Due to His death and resurrection, He now holds full payment to pay off anyone's sins. And He offers that as a GIFT (as opposed to earning it) to anyone that asks Him for it. No strings attached, or it wouldn't be a gift. That is how our sins are "absolved". But don't think they weren't paid for. They were brutally punished. Just that someone else took the sentence and the punishment.

"A 2 time murderer or rapist doesn't deserve that." Of course not. Neither do I, and I have done neither of those. It isn't about deserving. It is a GIFT.

Now obviously, you would have to believe He was a real person, He really did it, and if you asked Him, He would really be willing and able to do it. (as opposed to a fairy tale like some on the forum have said it is).

Not fair that a 2 time murderer would get in heaven and someone who was a wonderful person their whole life but didn't believe in Jesus and never allowed Him to pay for their sins would go to Hell. Of course it isn't fair. Correct. Getting to heaven isn't about FAIRness. "Fair" would be all people go to Hell because no one is good enough since ENOUGH has to be absolute perfection and no sins ever. It is about mercy and grace (grace=an undeserved gift. Key word there-undeserved).


Regarding the getting even, God as in the Bible is clear. "Vengeance is MINE, saith the Lord". Said multiple times.

You never hear me wanting the middle east turned into a glass parking lot.

Torture-I'll support limited use of it. WHAT?? Not for revenge. If it is in a war and an attempt to protect innocent life.

War? For it if necessary. Not for revenge or gain. Protecting innocents already dying? Sure. War.

Capitol punishment? Sure. God given, explicit right in the Bible. For revenge? No. To protect innocent population.

You can pm me or whatever. I can give you absolute chapter and verse references that you can look up in any translation if you want, that you can read for yourself and verify every single thing I've asserted here.

Again, you don't have to believe it, or agree with me. Totally fine. Just wanted you to get an accurate portrayal of what the Bible claims.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Not fair that a 2 time murderer would get in heaven and someone who was a wonderful person their whole life but didn't believe in Jesus and never allowed Him to pay for their sins would go to Hell. Of course it isn't fair. Correct. Getting to heaven isn't about FAIRness. "Fair" would be all people go to Hell because no one is good enough since ENOUGH has to be absolute perfection and no sins ever. It is about mercy and grace (grace=an undeserved gift. Key word there-undeserved).

And there, is the crux of the matter. (pun intended)

Christians can do just about any unholy act you can (or can't) imagine, including killing everything and everyone (except themselves) and press the button on their "get out of jail free" card printer and get into heaven. What is the point of Hell if no one ever goes there?

No, God may be forgiving, but I can't believe He would allow a serial killer into heaven.

But, I think I understand now. I completely misunderstood the Christian faith. I thought it was about "being good", but it's about "being sorry". Hmm.... That makes me sad.

I guess it should be pointed out that being 'saved' is not 'getting away with anything you did in this life'. There is the obedience to law that everyone is subject to (rendering unto Ceaser and all), and being punished as Jesus, Paul and nearly all the disciples were under the laws of the time. The 'saved' murderers still get the needle, they accept that, they just know that eternity will be with the Creator and not the Destroyer.

>EDIT TO ADD (and Quote)<<<<<<<<

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: What is the point of Hell if no one ever goes there? No, God may be forgiving, but I can't believe He would allow a serial killer into heaven. I completely misunderstood the Christian faith. I thought it was about "being good", but it's about "being sorry".

I work with a man who says he is Muslim. You can imagine we have interesting conversations about faith. I was raised Episcopalian (Now that's pretty close to the Catholic Church.... or NOT) but I attend an Independent Baptist church now.
I think a great deal of our (human) perception is that we attempt to impose our Morality of the Day on God (at least we're all talking about a mono-theistic god whether he exists or not) instead of figuring out where He is coming from.In trying to learn more about the Muslim faith I have been doing some pseudo research. It appears the Muslims believe that in the end of time as we know it, Allah will empty Hell and every soul will be redeemed.
Let's face it; any attractive religious organization is going to emphasize "being good." If you feel no remorse for the things you've done, you'll see no need to change. The Christian faith is about a willing change, a sacrifice if you will. There is usually some pain of some type involved, an inconvenience, a radical change of direction.
But at least there is no mandate to convert at the tip of a sword.

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 11-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: nd there, is the crux of the matter. (pun intended) Christians can do just about any unholy act you can (or can't) imagine, including killing everything and everyone (except themselves) and press the button on their "get out of jail free" card printer and get into heaven. What is the point of Hell if no one ever goes there? No, God may be forgiving, but I can't believe He would allow a serial killer into heaven. But, I think I understand now. I completely misunderstood the Christian faith. I thought it was about "being good", but it's about "being sorry". Hmm.... That makes me sad.

yeah - its kinda about "being sorry" - but its more about learning what you did wrong.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: And there, is the crux of the matter. (pun intended) Christians can do just about any unholy act you can (or can't) imagine, including killing everything and everyone (except themselves) and press the button on their "get out of jail free" card printer and get into heaven. What is the point of Hell if no one ever goes there? No, God may be forgiving, but I can't believe He would allow a serial killer into heaven. But, I think I understand now. I completely misunderstood the Christian faith. I thought it was about "being good", but it's about "being sorry". Hmm.... That makes me sad.

Feel the love!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Feel the love!

Yeah WWF style:

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Senate Panel Probes 6 Top Televangelists The six ministries identified as being under investigation by the committee are led by: Paula White Joyce Meyer Creflo Dollar Eddie Long Kenneth Copeland Benny Hinn Just to note, an investigation by NO means means these people are guilty of ANYTHING. I truly hope they are not. Even Jesus upturned a few tables over "moneychanging"!

....let's just say I am leery of any organization that is primarily personality-driven. This disqualifies me for being Jewish, since they have no central religious authority, Muslim because of their reliance on Imams, or cults in general. I suppose that would include the Catholic Church - You know, the one with that Pope guy.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: And there, is the crux of the matter. (pun intended) But, I think I understand now. .... That makes me sad.

If it was as you portrayed it, I think it would make me sad, too. Of course you would react to that kind of thinking, as many, many other very thoughtful people have.

I didn't give you the complete story due to trying to be brief. But now about THIS issue, since you wondered about it, there is more.

Let's say someone DOES believe what I had mentioned from the Bible, and does give Jesus permission to pay for their sins for them as a gift. At that point, there is a transfer of responsibility to Jesus to ensure they will be going to heaven when their body dies.

You're wondering if that gives them LICENSE to do whatever they want without fear of repercussion, since they can no longer ever go to Hell. Understandable that you would vastly underestimate God as portrayed in the Bible in His ability to cause repercussions. Out of His love, He doesn't want ETERNAL punishment hanging over you. BUT, when you give Jesus permission to pay for your sins, you automatically become a child of God. (No, just because someone is born a human does not make them 'one of God's children'). Hey, your parents probably had some rules of behavior for you. God does, too. LOTS of them. And He expects you to live up to them. And out of love, just like your parents (well, theoretically, GOOD parents), if you aren't following them, there will be punishment that is appropriate. BUT, good loving parents would never kick you out of the family. They will ALWAYS be your parent.

Jesus isn't going to give you payment for heaven, and then if you don't live up to God's standards, pull it back. But do not get the idea that God is going to let you do whatever you feel like without repercussion. It just won't be Hell. Plenty of other punishment techniques still available.

But why would someone have the "I can now do whatever I want attitude" anyway? Here is what that is like. I got married in 1987. "Ha, woman. Now we are married. So I can do whatever I want--like sleep with other women, or beat you, or scream at you. Because we are MARRIED. Ha. Sucka'." No. "I married you. I'll try, but I won't be perfect now just because we are married. I'll try to love you more and more over the years, and try to please you, because you are my wife."

And yes, the analogy breaks down because we can get divorced. I know. But the analogy was about the ATTITUDE in that example.

So if someone goes into marriage with that attitude, what does that say about their sincerity? And if someone "gives Jesus permission to pay for their sins" with that attitude of using it as a license to get out of jail free, what does that say about their sincerity?

I'm hopeful that helps you. Again, not to try to make you believe anything. Just to give you a more accurate picture of what the Bible says, as compared to what you have witnessed by people calling themselves christians.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: And there, is the crux of the matter. (pun intended) Christians can do just about any unholy act you can (or can't) imagine, including killing everything and everyone (except themselves) and press the button on their "get out of jail free" card printer and get into heaven. What is the point of Hell if no one ever goes there? No, God may be forgiving, but I can't believe He would allow a serial killer into heaven. But, I think I understand now. I completely misunderstood the Christian faith. I thought it was about "being good", but it's about "being sorry". Hmm.... That makes me sad.

Thats why some call it being saved, saved from the penalty of your sins. Whether they are lying, cheating, or mass murdering, sin is sin. But think about it... its not a get out of jail free card you can just play. You actually ask for forgiveness and mean it, and change. For some its at the end of life, some when they are young. For some not at all, and some think they will wait until they are on their deathbed, maybe they get in a traffic accident and don't get the chance.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: And there, is the crux of the matter. (pun intended) Christians can do just about any unholy act you can (or can't) imagine, including killing everything and everyone (except themselves) and press the button on their "get out of jail free" card printer and get into heaven. What is the point of Hell if no one ever goes there? No, God may be forgiving, but I can't believe He would allow a serial killer into heaven. But, I think I understand now. I completely misunderstood the Christian faith. I thought it was about "being good", but it's about "being sorry". Hmm.... That makes me sad.

Try thinking completely outside of the box. Try to forget everything you ever thought you knew about any religion, and try to look at it from a completely different perspective. Let's look at the no "right" "or wrong" scenario.
Why wouldn't "he" (God) allow a serial killer into "Heaven"? Let's consider the common descriptions of God. Isn't "he" portrayed as jealous (Thou shalt have no other God...) Angry; as he would condemn someone for all eternity. Manipulative; (follow all these rules, jump through this hoop, and make the mad dash to the finish line) and any of a whole list of adjectives you could dream of with examples to match. Now, aren't all of those actually HUMAN traits? Isn't God typically portrayed as having human foibles and shortcomings? What if "God" isn't so weak or limited as humans? What if God is really so far beyond our comprehension that we can barely begin to recognize what "he" may be? What if "he" (why do we call God "he", isn't that a physical description? Do you really think "God" is human???) ..but what if "he" has absolutely zero limitations, and knows or feels nothing of human emotions? What if God not just feels, but IS nothing but pure LOVE? Do you think pure love would ever condemn anyone? We have HUMANS on this planet that are incapable of condemnation. Does that mean that those people in that area are superior to God? What if God doesn't see anything as right or wrong, "he" only sees it as "what is" and makes no judgments about it? Judgment, isn't that a human trait too? Our need to judge things and determine their worth, or value? We see a serial killer and think, he has no value. What if God makes no such determination and just sees the serial killer as just another of his children. Most HUMAN parents would never consider turning their back on one of their children, no matter what they've ever done. Is God that much less of a loving 'parent?" See, most Christians would never agree with this philosophy for a number of reasons. Heck, most people in general would never go along with it. Why? Because, they need to feel superior to the other person. They don't want to believe that as far as God is concerned that a person who would kill another person (or persons) could be as valuable to God as they are. So in their minds they reserve "Heaven" for those like them, whom they deem worthy to be there. But unltimately, IT'S NOT THEIR CHOICE! They like to think it is. With great pride and chest thumping they like to proclaim in loud voices, "Our way is the only way!" "Only through Cheeses and our set of rules can you ever hope to see the Kingdom of Heaven!" "Jump up and down three times, spin around in a circle (counter-clockwise) until you fall down, then drop your wallet in this basket!" "Congratulations, you've been saved!" "Here's you God-card, make sure you have it punched every week after you drop your offering in the basket." Wow! How lucky for them to have stumbled upon JUST the right answer huh?
I like to think that God really doesn't discriminate, that he has no use for, and is so far beyond human emotion, thought, and fears and that "he" really doesn't care what we do here. That ultimately, our time here is just a big game. That we are God's way of realizing himself, both the good, the bad, and the ugly. And that in the end, there's really only ONE place for all of us to go. (Hooters of course!)

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Try thinking completely outside of the box.

Perhaps one of the best posts here!

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: See, most Christians would never agree with this philosophy for a number of reasons. Heck, most people in general would never go along with it. Why? Because, they need to feel superior to the other person. They don't want to believe that as far as God is concerned that a person who would kill another person (or persons) could be as valuable to God as they are. So in their minds they reserve "Heaven" for those like them, whom they deem worthy to be there. But unltimately, IT'S NOT THEIR CHOICE! They like to think it is. With great pride and chest thumping they like to proclaim in loud voices, "Our way is the only way!"

Apparently, you read neither FL or my posts because what you describe above is diametrically opposed to what we wrote. Where have I thumped my chest? Where have I derided or denigrated anyone?

I could go through post and point out a least a dozen fallacies in what you SAY is Christian that you're just simply wrong about, but why bother?

God DOES view the worst sinner the same as the most upright priest. Both are humans. Both are sinners, beyond redemption. Out of His love for us, His children, He sent his Son to die for us and atone for our sins. All we have to do to take advantage of that gift is believe He is our Savior, confess our sins, and repent of them. How do you feel that is putting one person above another? We are all equal in God's sight, all have the same opportunity for redemption.

I honestly don't know where you get your view of Christianity core values, but what you portrayed above is not even close to them. Of course I also don't understand the view that there is no good, there is no evil, it's all relative. As that thought process has, somehow, taken hold in our "modern" world, would you say society is better, or worse? There is good, there is evil. The only people that don't believe that are those that have never come face to face with it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Apparently, you read neither FL or my posts because what you describe above is diametrically opposed to what we wrote. Where have I thumped my chest? Where have I derided or denigrated anyone? I could go through post and point out a least a dozen fallacies in what you SAY is Christian that you're just simply wrong about, but why bother? God DOES view the worst sinner the same as the most upright priest. Both are humans. Both are sinners, beyond redemption. Out of His love for us, His children, He sent his Son to die for us and atone for our sins. All we have to do to take advantage of that gift is believe He is our Savior, confess our sins, and repent of them. How do you feel that is putting one person above another? We are all equal in God's sight, all have the same opportunity for redemption. I honestly don't know where you get your view of Christianity core values, but what you portrayed above is not even close to them. Of course I also don't understand the view that there is no good, there is no evil, it's all relative. As that thought process has, somehow, taken hold in our "modern" world, would you say society is better, or worse? There is good, there is evil. The only people that don't believe that are those that have never come face to face with it. John Stricker

the joys of being in the box. what is described is the stereotype of a christian. this is what we out here see. while you personally may not exactly fit the stereotype, you are in the box anyways. welcome to being stereotyped.

If being stereotyped is what happens from being saved, then stereotype away, my friend.

You do realize that sometimes, being outside the box is NOT the place to be. People that are ALWAYS outside the box rarely get anything accomplished. Yes, let's all be outside the box every time we do something. Let's have to reinvent the wheel every time, or reinvent the concepts of fire and heat. No thank you, not for me.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: the joys of being in the box. what is described is the stereotype of a christian. this is what we out here see. while you personally may not exactly fit the stereotype, you are in the box anyways. welcome to being stereotyped.

ANY NOFX fan can attest to the right being total crap...... sorry.
I'm not atheist... I'm a believer of a higher power.. just not the god that is blindly followed by this country's leader.

What is NOFX?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by NY_FIERO: ANY NOFX fan can attest to the right being total crap...... sorry. I'm not atheist... I'm a believer of a higher power.. just not the god that is blindly followed by this country's leader.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Apparently, you read neither FL or my posts because what you describe above is diametrically opposed to what we wrote. Where have I thumped my chest? Where have I derided or denigrated anyone? I could go through post and point out a least a dozen fallacies in what you SAY is Christian that you're just simply wrong about, but why bother? God DOES view the worst sinner the same as the most upright priest. Both are humans. Both are sinners, beyond redemption. Out of His love for us, His children, He sent his Son to die for us and atone for our sins. All we have to do to take advantage of that gift is believe He is our Savior, confess our sins, and repent of them. How do you feel that is putting one person above another? We are all equal in God's sight, all have the same opportunity for redemption. I honestly don't know where you get your view of Christianity core values, but what you portrayed above is not even close to them. Of course I also don't understand the view that there is no good, there is no evil, it's all relative. As that thought process has, somehow, taken hold in our "modern" world, would you say society is better, or worse? There is good, there is evil. The only people that don't believe that are those that have never come face to face with it. John Stricker

Yes, you're right, I didn't read them. I doubt there would be anything I haven't already read or heard. I spent the early part of my life as a Southern Baptist, a Lutheran, and other variations of Christianity. That's where I get my view of their core beliefs. None of it ever made sense to me. And any time I challenged an idea or thought, I was treated as though I was simply a rebellious child who wouldn't cave to the thought reform. Then one day I discovered a group that didn't try to convince me to believe what they did. I didn't find a group that would teach me how to think or what, but let me think for myself. As for right or wrong and the concept of "Heaven", the whole idea that anyone would even need ask for forgiveness only further illustrates another human weakness in "God": The need for an apology or even an acknowledgment of one's actions. That's another human shortcoming. Unless the person is doing that for their own sake, and not the approval of some church or group of people to gain their approval. And the whole idea of God sending Jesus to die for our sins. What? I need explanation on that one, 'cause it really just makes no sense. It really just seems more like a way for a group of people to not have to take responsibility for their actions. Re: Let's crucify this guy because he believes something we don't." (Kind of the same response I get from many people) "Whoops" "Did YOU know who this guy was??" "OK, look, let's make this look like a suicide" "No wait, I have a better idea....it'll be so far fetched no one will ever be able to question it...." "Besides, how would he have stabbed himself with this five foot spear.."
It seems that you took my post quite to heart. It was truly intended as a gross generalization. I have to wonder, why were you so personally offended by it? I never mentioned you by name, nor made any references to you personally or any of your posts. Your defensiveness is what troubles me about most "Christians", there is this zealousness that *seems* to go way beyond rational thought. As though the very idea that someone would not believe what you do, or dare to question your beliefs is worth flying planes into the side of their house. (Or at least, being very defensive about what they write).
The truth is, and this is where most people have a problem. My belief is, that there really is no right, or wrong. And here's the irony, being that there is no right or wrong (in my world) there's even room for people who DO believe there is right or wrong! And I don't think you're wrong for thinking that way! Try wrapping your head around THAT one!

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 11-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Yes, you're right, I didn't read them. I doubt there would be anything I haven't already read or heard.

Good to know you're keeping an open mind, listening to other opinions, while you're thinking "outside the box".

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: See, most Christians would never agree with this philosophy for a number of reasons. Heck, most people in general would never go along with it. Why? Because, they need to feel superior to the other person. I like to think that God ...

Well, you say most would never agree for a number of reasons, but then you go on to say "THE reason".

I politely but emphatically reject that. I don't feel any need to be superior to you. I'm going to speak for jstricker. He doesn't feel that need whatsoever.

I would never agree with your philosophy because it contradicts the Bible in almost every one of your statements. I don't mind that you have that philosophy, though. You gave your reason for it. It is because it is what you LIKE. "I like to think..."

You might also like to think that I have brown eyes, black hair, am 6'5", weigh 320 pounds, and am caucasian. Some of those things might be right. Some of those things might be wrong. I am what I am. Whether you like thinking of me that way or not is ultimately irrelevant and doesn't change what I am.

I have decided to take another course. I have looked at the Bible to see if it is reality or fiction. Through examination of Bible statements and comparing them to secular sources as to accuracy as much as is available, I have come to a conclusion that the Bible claims are true. Then I read the Bible and what it says about God, and whether I like it or not, take that image of God.

That is why when I answer, I only present what the Bible says. I don't want people to go by my opinions, although I am very fine with my opinion. And I don't care if someone else comes to the same conclusion about the Bible as I do, or decides if the Bible describes God accurately or not.

My big concern is that the God as described in the Bible is misportrayed by the majority of self-declared christians.

I have no consternation over being stereotyped by pyrthian or ryan.hess. How are they supposed to know any differently? They are looking at the totality of their life experiences, and extrapolating it. Yeah. That's what logical people do.

That's why I appreciate the chance to let those guys know what my answers are to some of their very interesting, insightful questions are. So they don't have to go by the stereotype but actually get to hear what the Bible really says. Then do with it what they will.

Very nice discussion going.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: It seems that you took my post quite to heart. It was truly intended as a gross generalization.

Yes I did.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I have to wonder, why were you so personally offended by it?

Who said I was offended?

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I never mentioned you by name, nor made any references to you personally or any of your posts. Your defensiveness is what troubles me about most "Christians", there is this zealousness that *seems* to go way beyond rational thought.

I do object to people portraying me, and my beliefs, in an inaccurate manner, particularly when I have just recently laid those beliefs out for all to read, then you come in and say I (as a Christian) believe something entirely different.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: As though the very idea that someone would not believe what you do, or dare to question your beliefs is worth flying planes into the side of their house. (Or at least, being very defensive about what they write).

So now you equate a terrorist act of flying airplanes into buildings as equal to objection to an inaccurate portrayal? Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't distinguish between right and wrong.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: The truth is, and this is where most people have a problem. My belief is, that there really is no right, or wrong. And here's the irony, being that there is no right or wrong (in my world) there's even room for people who DO believe there is right or wrong! And I don't think you're wrong for thinking that way! Try wrapping your head around THAT one!

There's room in the world for everyone, according to Christianity. It's what happens after life in this world that is the point of discussion.

John Stricker

Are you?
Besides, typical Christian debate relies heavily on the Bible for validation or justification of the argument. And being that I don't accept the Bible literally, or even as the final word of "God", it doesn't carry any weight with me. To me, the Bible is simple a book with a lot of great stories and some awesome lessons. So how do you debate the ideas when the book you use to support your argument has no value to me in that regard? You can use it to support your ideas, and to even prove what is written there, but if I interpret it differently from you, then your argument carries no weight with me. I don't like to discuss religion as a factual thing, because it's not. Obviously. Otherwise there wouldn't be thousands of different ideas around the world. There's no need to be defensive or even offended. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe what you believe. That's the big difference here. I allow you to think or feel or believe what you want without telling you it's wrong. It's just not what *I* personally believe. Welcome to my world of no right or wrong.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I have decided to take another course. I have looked at the Bible to see if it is reality or fiction. Through examination of Bible statements and comparing them to secular sources as to accuracy as much as is available, I have come to a conclusion that the Bible claims are true. Then I read the Bible and what it says about God, and whether I like it or not, take that image of God. .

I actually came back to my faith while doing graduate work in college in genetics. It hit me one night, in the lab, that no matter what I found out there, and how many research papers I was a part of, I wasn't answering any of the really important questions in my life, only filling in a few details.

I found the answers in my faith.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I actually came back to my faith while doing graduate work in college in genetics. It hit me one night, in the lab, that no matter what I found out there, and how many research papers I was a part of, I wasn't answering any of the really important questions in my life, only filling in a few details. I found the answers in my faith. John Stricker

See. There ya go. Isn't that ultimately ALL That matters? If you find what makes sense to YOU, then what else matters? So what makes sense to me doesn't make sense to you. I'm OK with that. I'm GLAD you found what works for you and makes you happy. It's all ANY of us could ask for. (And NO, I'm not being sarcastic or cynical)
The question is (and my problem with *most* traditional Christians) is why "they" can't express the same sentiments when someone finds their path and it doesn't match theirs?

As I've said before, my "charge" in the scriptures is to spread the word. That's what I've been doing here. You may either accept it, ask for more information in the form of questions to learn more about it before coming to a decision, or reject it outright. Those are your three options.

You have free will and may always do as you choose. God gave man free will, so who am I to think that I should take it away from anyone?

My only "problem" with your beliefs is that I honestly do feel that the lack of differentiation between right and wrong has done a great deal of damage to our society. I'm not just talking about heaven and hell. I'm talking about things like a 6 year old acting up in class. It used to be that if you didn't behave in class, you were told very quickly that was the WRONG way to behave and some type of corrective action was taken. Now, we don't do that anymore. "Oh, he has ADD" "Oh, he's a little fireball, isn't he?" So what happens is a disruptive student in the class that inhibits learning for the rest of the class members and never learns that there IS a right and wrong behavior in certain situations. That's just one, simple, everyday example of the damage caused by the lack of a distinction between "right" and "wrong". There are countless others with much more immediate and catastrophic effects.

As far as me having a problem with you not accepting Christ, the only problem I have with that is I BELIEVE that you are locking yourself out of the gates of Heaven. I'm sorry you missed that opportunity. We've all missed opportunities, but I'm not going to stick a hot poker in your eye until you see it my way, you have to CHOOSE to follow, you can't be made to. Maybe some day you WILL choose to follow. Maybe not. It will be your choice regardless.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: See. There ya go. Isn't that ultimately ALL That matters? If you find what makes sense to YOU, then what else matters? So what makes sense to me doesn't make sense to you. I'm OK with that. I'm GLAD you found what works for you and makes you happy. It's all ANY of us could ask for. (And NO, I'm not being sarcastic or cynical) The question is (and my problem with *most* traditional Christians) is why "they" can't express the same sentiments when someone finds their path and it doesn't match theirs?

Well, two things. One, I think you're trying to mix up laws of man, and whether compliance with those laws qualifies a person to go to heaven or not. I believe completely in personal responsibility. But only as far as coexisting with other people is concerned. It would be nice if we could all just run around and do as we wish without consequence while here on earth, but many people don't practice restraint nor display any sense of responsibility. Therefore, I believe we need laws to influence people to try and get along. I don't believe however, that the arbitrary laws of man reflect a person's worth in the eyes of God.
Second, I'm actually talking about a God who is more loving than you are. And you still think I'm going to miss the boat? If God gets pissed about things, don't you think he may resent being short-changed in the humanity department?
Oh yeah, third, you have a PM.

Edit: I just noticed this and had to comment:

quote Originally posted by jstricker: We've all missed opportunities, but I'm not going to stick a hot poker in your eye until you see it my way, you have to CHOOSE to follow, you can't be made to. Maybe some day you WILL choose to follow. Maybe not. It will be your choice regardless. John Stricker

Did Jesus follow, or did he lead? Did he just conform to the popular ideas of the time, or did he blaze his own trail? WWJD?

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 11-29-2007).]

I keep seeing alot of references to Biblical "Right & Wrong".
Are some of these people the same people whom I seem to remember supporting vigilante justice, in one form or another, and ignoring the Rule of Law when it is felt that Justice cannot be served through it, to an individuals liking, or their idea's of Justice.

Shouldn't a person's beliefs follow through, from beginning to end, and not be subject to "This case, that case"?

Example: "Thou shall not steal". ( I want to use "Thou shalt not kill", but the jury here is still out on kill/murder)
No stealing, ever, under any circumstances (starvation)?
If you don't feed yourself, isn't that suicide? (a sin)
Can you believe in the Bible (thou shalt not kill/murder, suicide a sin, etc.), and still believe in euthanasia, when in unending pain and/or there is no hope of recovery?

Does the Bible make a solid stand, on all things, or does it depend on who's reading it?
Can you pick & choose, or has it a set standard?

The above is questions, not accusations.

Boonie,

Some of these questions you need to answer for yourself after your own study and if you think you need it, help from those more learned like a minister or priest, or even those you respect. Some denominations do get very specific about what is and is not allowed. The Catholic church is an example. Others, like Methodists, leave much more open to personal discovery.

FWIW, I don't believe you've ever seen me support vigilante justice. The only time I would consider taking another human life is if my life, or the life of another, was in immediate danger.

No, you should never steal. Faith says the Lord will provide. I've been pretty down on my luck in my years, but He always did provide in one way or another.

If you don't feed yourself, but you are ABLE to do so, then that would be suicide. Different denominations treat suicide differently. I suggest you study and find what you think it says about it.

The Euthanasia question is a very hard one for me, personally. You have to balance that with the question of if all of the modern medical life extending machines weren't in use, would the person have already passed away? Yes, I know how that sounds, but I'm talking about artificial respirators, feeding tubes, etc. etc. I, along with my family, had to make that decision with my mother in 2001. I can tell you we decided to let her go. That's not to say we did a Kevorkian on her, we did have a DNR and wouldn't allow the extreme measures I mentioned earlier. I'm at peace in my heart that we did not only wha was best for mom, but what was desired by God. I guess I'll find out if I was right at some later date, when I stand before Him.

I do think the Bible makes a solid stand on nearly everything. The problem being that I might read it, and FL might read it, and come to two different understandings of the same thing. To me, that's not a big issue, believe it or not.

There are really just a couple of big issues, and Christ himself made it clear in telling us what we MUST DO to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Believe, be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, confess and repent your sins, and you will be saved. Because you believe, you want to live a life pleasing to God and to know what is pleasing to God you have to study the Bible and seek out the opinions of others that have studied it to help guide you.

If you're asking if the Bible is a step by step cookbook on life, no it's not. It's been given us to guide us through our lives through it's study.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I keep seeing alot of references to Biblical "Right & Wrong". Are some of these people the same people whom I seem to remember supporting vigilante justice, in one form or another, and ignoring the Rule of Law when it is felt that Justice cannot be served through it, to an individuals liking, or their idea's of Justice. Shouldn't a person's beliefs follow through, from beginning to end, and not be subject to "This case, that case"? Example: "Thou shall not steal". ( I want to use "Thou shalt not kill", but the jury here is still out on kill/murder) No stealing, ever, under any circumstances (starvation)? If you don't feed yourself, isn't that suicide? (a sin) Can you believe in the Bible (thou shalt not kill/murder, suicide a sin, etc.), and still believe in euthanasia, when in unending pain and/or there is no hope of recovery? Does the Bible make a solid stand, on all things, or does it depend on who's reading it? Can you pick & choose, or has it a set standard? The above is questions, not accusations.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 11-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I keep seeing alot of references to Biblical "Right & Wrong". Are some of these people the same people whom I seem to remember supporting vigilante justice, in one form or another, and ignoring the Rule of Law when it is felt that Justice cannot be served through it, to an individuals liking, or their idea's of Justice. Shouldn't a person's beliefs follow through, from beginning to end, and not be subject to "This case, that case"? Example: "Thou shall not steal". ( I want to use "Thou shalt not kill", but the jury here is still out on kill/murder) No stealing, ever, under any circumstances (starvation)? If you don't feed yourself, isn't that suicide? (a sin) Can you believe in the Bible (thou shalt not kill/murder, suicide a sin, etc.), and still believe in euthanasia, when in unending pain and/or there is no hope of recovery? Does the Bible make a solid stand, on all things, or does it depend on who's reading it? Can you pick & choose, or has it a set standard? The above is questions, not accusations.

You will see me saying the Bible says right and wrong, but I was never one of the ones ever talking about vigilante justice. Or glass parking lots in the middle east. Or bending the law to get what you want regarding justice, etc.

No, you don't get to pick and choose. There might be occasional issues where it is hard to make a solid stand, but few.

And I don't compartmentalize life. Work. Friends. Church. Finances. Marriage. Sports. Entertainment. Whatever. Biblical rights and wrongs in every area, every day of the week. Like them or not. Convenient or not. To my personal benefit or not.

No stealing under any circumstances. Ever. Begging is allowed. Work is preferable. But if you can't for whatever reason, ask. BTW, begging is only allowed for what you NEED. "Will work for food" begging on a street corner isn't allowed. It is a job for those people. (often).

Intentionally starving yourself to death is suicide. Suicide is intentionally ending your life, and deciding when your life ends is an authority that God retains for Himself and does not give to anyone except under very specific, spelled out circumstances (which would be war or self-defense, or capitol punishment for certain crimes). It's a sin. Like other sins, that one can be paid for by Jesus too.

Euthanasia isn't one of the delineated circumstances where God transfers authority of when someone dies to humans. Ooh, that's so inhumane. Cruel. No it isn't. Not putting someone on life support or tube feeding someone that can't swallow isn't euthanasia. Those things didn't even exist until the last 50 years of the existence of humans. And regarding suffering, I can guarantee you that I can manage pain control for someone that is dying so they don't suffer. I have done it many, many times. I can't say they will have much of a level of consciousness sometimes when I'm reaching pain control, but at that point they don't care. And if I accidentally while trying to get pain control, over-medicate and depress their breathing and they die, that isn't murder and that isn't euthanasia. That's a known and acceptable risk of treatment.

Of course, there are always going to be some circumstances that are harder to sort out, and on which honest people can agree. But that isn't the rub, is it?

Boondawg, I would suspect your life experience and observations are the same as mine. A very small percentage of people you have seen or met that claim to be christians are willing to spend time studying the Bible to actually know what it says, and a very small percentage will follow parts that inconvenience their lives or costs them. Hence the question. And knowing you, I don't suspect you demand perfection and sit there looking and waiting for someone to be inconsistent or hypocritical so you can yell "gotcha".

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: And if I accidentally while trying to get pain control, over-medicate and depress their breathing and they die, that isn't murder and that isn't euthanasia. That's a known and acceptable risk of treatment.

Well Doc, I guarantee that in a few short years as the huge wave of baby boomers age and completely fill up our hospitals and nursing homes, these “accidents” will be occurring ever so frequently.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If being stereotyped is what happens from being saved, then stereotype away, my friend. You do realize that sometimes, being outside the box is NOT the place to be. People that are ALWAYS outside the box rarely get anything accomplished. Yes, let's all be outside the box every time we do something. Let's have to reinvent the wheel every time, or reinvent the concepts of fire and heat. No thank you, not for me. John Stricker

lol - a bit more than expected...but, I just meant in the "stereotyped" box...that is all...maybe I should have said "Pigeonholed"? "Lumped in"?
and, yes, it is a one of the better piles to piled into.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Well Doc, I guarantee that in a few short years as the huge wave of baby boomers age and completely fill up our hospitals and nursing homes, these “accidents” will be occurring ever so frequently.

Good point. Totally agree. Is that a bad thing in your opinion? It isn't to me.

And I'm never "accidentally on purpose" doing it . But I'll intentionally go right up to the edge if that is what it takes to give pain control. And when you are that close to the edge, you know that inadvertently sometimes you are going to go over. The patients and their family know that and accept it, and I accept it. But my conscience is clear because of motive. I honestly had no intention to do kill the person. My intention was to benefit the person by controlling pain and it was a genuine, albeit definitely possible, accident.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I keep seeing alot of references to Biblical "Right & Wrong". Are some of these people the same people whom I seem to remember supporting vigilante justice, in one form or another, and ignoring the Rule of Law when it is felt that Justice cannot be served through it, to an individuals liking, or their idea's of Justice. Shouldn't a person's beliefs follow through, from beginning to end, and not be subject to "This case, that case"? <snip>

In a perfect world, I would like to feel that way. I would love to be able to look at people completely without judgment. But every day I drive down the road and cuss at this person or that person for doing something stupid. But here's the irony, and frankly, where the core of my beliefs lay: The only person I harm in judging others, (or any action I take!) is me. Every time I do that, I think to myself, "why did I do that?" It's my human flaw. The opposite side of that is, that I have to agree (to an extent) with the need for rules and laws. I believe firmly that we are WAY over regulated, but that's another thread entirely. But I believe that for the purposes of co-existing on this rock with other people, until everyone learns to be responsible, and exercise some self restraint and self discipline, that laws are needed. But just because I might believe a person deserves to rot in jail, does not mean that I believe they can be separated from God in the afterlife. If there is such a thing.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Edit: I just noticed this and had to comment: Did Jesus follow, or did he lead? Did he just conform to the popular ideas of the time, or did he blaze his own trail? WWJD?

JC was a JEW who wanted to change a few rules/laws

SAUL/PAUL was a guy who invented a religion
problem is the religion invented by SAUL/PAUL
was not the one JC believed in
then we have 2000 years of church control
of those ideas and additions to them

note who wrote the bible it was not JC
but was SAUL/PAUL and his followers/school mostly
who wrote edited and more importantly threw out other ideas
like the true teachings of JC


WWJD is a simple question
he would be a jew not a christian or a god or 1/3 part of a god

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?