Originally posted by The Poopsmith: I'm not calling anybody a racist or elitist but I do know that some Americans (probably on this forum too) generally hate other countries for very simple reasons. A lot of people think that the whole middle east is one big FUBAR because of extremists but in reality there is a very small percentage that are radical extremists and most people from that area want to live peaceful freedom loving lives in there countries over there like we do here. The most complete way to defeat terrorism would be to spend more money on our process of immigration and use less fossil fuels. We dethroned Sadam and there really isn't anything besides Oil over there that we want so why are we still fighting a war by force? We are killing ourselves here in America faster then the Terrorists you do realize that.
Ahhh... I think you are refering to fascism and or imperialism where patriotism for ones country can go too far. There is a fine line between the two.
A former U.S. Marine in danger of losing his home in a neighborhood feud over flying an American flag will not lose his property – at least not this Memorial Day.
Fla. Gov. Jeb Bush celebrates Flag Day with former Marine George Andres
George Andres of Jupiter, Fla., has been warring with his homeowners association for the past four years, as the flagpole in his yard turned into a national lightning rod of controversy.
According to local news reports, a Palm Beach County judge halted the foreclosure of Andres' home, which was slated to be sold at a courthouse auction Thursday.
"I'm elated!" Andres exclaimed to the Jupiter Courier. "Everybody here is jumping for joy."
As the holiday weekend approached, Andres got a congratulatory phone call from Gov. Jeb Bush, who had personally visited him on Flag Day last year.
Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist was dispatched to South Florida to help Andres celebrate the win after 23 court hearings and thousands of dollars in fines had accrued.
"It's a great day for justice for this ex-Marine, and I'm so proud to stand by him," Crist told the Palm Beach Post as he stood in Andres' yard with an American flag and a smaller Marine Corps flag waving from the controversial flagpole in the background.
"The notion that an ex-Marine would come within an eyelash of losing his home for flying an American flag is astounding," he said.
The foreclosure battle began when the Indian Creek Phase III-B Homeowners Association objected to the pole erected on Andres' property, which it said violated its rules.
"[Andres is] very patriotic, but what he doesn't understand is that everyone has to live by the rules," association attorney Steven Selz told the Post.
In August 2001, a judge agreed with the association that the flagpole on the front lawn did not meet restrictions on residents.
Last year, the Florida Legislature passed a bill prompted by Andres' legal troubles. It allows residents to fly an American flag "in a respectful manner" regardless of association rules, reports the Courier. Gov. Bush then signed it into law.
It was made retroactive to apply to Andres' situation, but it was passed long after a lien was filed and the homeowners' association won its case. In April, the judge hearing the case ruled foreclosure proceedings could move ahead despite the new law.
The decision last Friday keeps Andres in his home for now, but the final word comes later as both sides have been ordered to mediation. If an arbitrator can't settle the matter, the flap over the flag heads back to trial court.
UPDATE
Mr. Andres won a 78,000 dollar lawsuit againt the association and has drawn the ire of the local residents who will ultimatly be paying for it.
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05:12 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Typical apologist Canadian.. Sorry.. Vets and patriots are a little more serious.. Now go hide behind the US skirts Canada doesn't have a military because it has a big brother next door. When you're all growed up myabe you'll get that point Imperialism/for Oil.. we could take over Canada with a reserve unit of our coast guard and claim your oil fields as our own. Sorry to any offended.. but getting sick of this crap.. War for oil.. we're evil etc... If we were after oil would be a hella lot easier to take over canada and mexico than to send troops half way across the globe to Iraq .. (Iraq not a leading producer of oil compared to Saudi Arabia, Venezula) Go get your shine box
Typical post by Uaana...
Insults Canadians Insults Canada Insults me
I thought it was Mexicans you hated.
Man oh man, read over your elitist, chest thumping, condescending and inflammatory post and tell me you’re not surprised that activists from other parts of the world might wish to fly airliners into the side of American skyscrapers.
Attitudes like yours (on a national scale) only help to sour American relations with the rest of the world. No country can go it alone, not indefinitely...
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05:29 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Man oh man, read over your elitist, chest thumping, condescending and inflammatory post and tell me you’re not surprised that activists from other parts of the world might wish to fly airliners into the side of American skyscrapers.
Attitudes like yours (on a national scale) only help to sour American relations with the rest of the world. No country can go it alone, not indefinitely...
you're alone. Thank God.
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor
"This Canadian thinks that it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan, and to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billion in debts. None of these countries today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their rewards was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane equal to the Boeing Jumbo jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all International lines, except Russia fly American planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about German technology, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technology, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even the draft - dodgers are not pursued and hounded. The are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany, and India were breaking down through the age, It was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think that there was outside help during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their own troubles. I hope that Canada is not one of those".
Stand PROUD, America!
Wear it PROUDLY!
By Gordon Sinclair, Canadian Television Commentator
Editor's note: I remember this recording when it came out in 1974 when the US was still in the middle of the Watergate Affair. That recording by the Late Gordon Sinclair was a hit that played on just about every radio station from Rock & Roll to Country. Thanks Dave for sending that down as we approach Memorial Day.
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05:39 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Todd, perhaps you (or Uaana) can explain why this thread is being diverted from a story about a guy who cuts down an American flag outside a Reno bar to an American-Canadian issue.
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05:45 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Todd, perhaps you (or Uaana) can explain why this thread is being diverted from a story about a guy who cuts down an American flag outside a Reno bar to an American-Canadian issue.
Since you are the one who diverted it perhaps you could tell the rest of us. YOU said, "I didn’t realize that Reno Nevada was such a hotbed of Mexican solidarity."
You should have ended it right there. Because what you said sarcastically you SHOULD have said with sincerity. You DON'T know jack. You don't know jack about America, or our immigration problems. You don't know jack about flag protocol. You don't know jack about whether or not this guy DID ask first and take action later.
The rest of us have decided to give the veteran the benefit of the doubt. YOU decided to give someone flying a Mexican Flag OVER an American flag in the United States of America the benefit of the doubt.
...that is what we call anti-American. You actions speak volumes, despite your protestations of merely insisting on more info.
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06:00 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Todd, perhaps you (or Uaana) can explain why this thread is being diverted from a story about a guy who cuts down an American flag outside a Reno bar to an American-Canadian issue.
Because we have a Canadian trying to stick his nose into something that is American business? Because we have a Canadian that has NO IDEA why a U.S. veteran or a servicemember would do what he did, yet all servicemembers and veterans of the U.S. on this forum have all applauded Jim Brosser's actions. I'd say 85% of the the rest of the posters have applauded and agreed with Jim Brosser's actions.
Originally posted by Patrick: Todd, perhaps you (or Uaana) can explain why this thread is being diverted from a story about a guy who cuts down an American flag outside a Reno bar to an American-Canadian issue.
When Todd is off his meds he tries to derail threads. Nothing out of the ordinary.
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06:01 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Since you are the one who diverted it perhaps you could tell the rest of us. YOU said, "I didn’t realize that Reno Nevada was such a hotbed of Mexican solidarity."
???
Perhaps go back and read what I was responding to.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
You don't know jack about whether or not this guy DID ask first and take action later.
And neither do you or anyone else here apparently.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
YOU decided to give someone flying a Mexican Flag OVER an American flag in the United States of America the benefit of the doubt.
Oh, nice try Todd. I did no such thing. As a matter of fact, in my very first post in this thread I was expressing my surprise that it was the Mexican flag that was left behind to fly over the establishment.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
...that is what we call anti-American.
That is what I call paranoid delusion.
I have friends and family in the States. I am not anti-American, but we’ve been down this road before. Anytime someone who isn’t American dares to seek clarification of an issue, out come the American “patriots” in this forum who try and derail the discussion.
Originally posted by Patrick: Man oh man, read over your elitist, chest thumping, condescending and inflammatory post and tell me you’re not surprised that activists from other parts of the world might wish to fly airliners into the side of American skyscrapers.
Attitudes like yours (on a national scale) only help to sour American relations with the rest of the world. No country can go it alone, not indefinitely...
I tend to agree with that statement.
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07:33 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Because we have a Canadian trying to stick his nose into something that is American business?
This is an international forum. Suck it up and deal with it.
quote
Originally posted by aceman:
Because we have a Canadian that has NO IDEA why a U.S. veteran or a servicemember would do what he did, yet all servicemembers and veterans of the U.S. on this forum have all applauded Jim Brosser's actions.
Just so it’s clear to me, is it ALL military veterans who can take the law into their own hands, or is it just US military veterans who are afforded this privilege?
quote
Originally posted by aceman:
I'd say 85% of the the rest of the posters have applauded and agreed with Jim Brosser's actions.
Wow, big surprise on a car forum comprised mostly of American males, many of which have served in the military.
Where do you “patriots” draw the line? If Jim Brosser had decided to stick his knife in the chest of the Mexican-American bar owner instead of just cutting down his flag, would that still be acceptable? Would you all still be applauding his actions?
Not that several of you guys give a sh!t what anyone outside of your closed-minded little group might think, but I don’t have a problem with Jim Brosser doing what he did IF the situation was explained to the bar owner and he was given a chance to redeem himself (by repositioning the flags).
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07:47 PM
LITEDAZE Member
Posts: 1894 From: Timmins ON Canada Registered: Apr 2004
Man oh man, read over your elitist, chest thumping, condescending and inflammatory post and tell me you’re not surprised that activists from other parts of the world might wish to fly airliners into the side of American skyscrapers.
Attitudes like yours (on a national scale) only help to sour American relations with the rest of the world. No country can go it alone, not indefinitely...
1. apologize for going on an off topic rant. 2. Picking on Canadians is just fun.. kinda like picking on the french 3. I am mexican
As for the jingoistic, condescending etc.. why is the other half of the world trying to get in our country?
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07:53 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
1. apologize for going on an off topic rant. 2. Picking on Canadians is just fun.. kinda like picking on the french 3. I am mexican
1. Hmmm... I have reservations about how sincere your apology is. 2. Yeah, it’s great fun to pile on when you outnumber the opposition 10 to 1. 3. Interesting, so how are your flags positioned?
quote
Originally posted by Uaana:
As for the jingoistic, condescending etc.. why is the other half of the world trying to get in our country?
The US has lots to offer, and I don’t believe your tirade represents the average American citizen’s beliefs. But keep in mind, if the summers were longer, they’d all be coming Here instead.
Originally posted by Patrick: Fine with me Bill, but aren't you concerned that might lead to talk of Saint Lucie and Vancouver being nuked?
Nah... The US will never nuke itself unless there was something to be gained by it. Then again with all the Canadian tags I see around here during the winter combined with all the Hatiens speeking creole.. well... the possibility does indeed exist but that would be consistant with self castration.
Canada on the other hand... that might just happen for kicks and giggles if half these yahoos had the football.
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08:32 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Vonov: And it is NOT required to fly the American Flag above those of other countries; they may be displayed at equal heights.
Replace the word "may" with "must", and you'll have it. Here's a snippet from the USFlag.org website:
"When flown with the national banner of other countries, each flag must be displayed from a separate pole of the same height. Each flag should be the same size. They should be raised and lowered simultaneously. The flag of one nation may not be displayed above that of another nation."
This would explain why Mr. Brosser didn't just swap the two flags. So he at least deserves credit for knowing this. I don't know if he talked to the business owner before taking matters into his own hands. And I don't know if the business owner arranged the flags that way on purpose or not. So I won't make any judgements. But it isn't difficult, nor does it require any special skills, to type the words "flag etiquette" into a search engine.
Also, I'd be surprised (and somewhat ashamed) if the local police didn't approach the business owner about it.
Originally posted by Patrick: Where do you “patriots” draw the line? If Jim Brosser had decided to stick his knife in the chest of the Mexican-American bar owner instead of just cutting down his flag, would that still be acceptable? Would you all still be applauding his actions?
No it wouldn't, no one is condoning murder. But it is getting old watching our world get nibbled away every day. Cant do this, cant do that. But it only applies to you if you choose to follow the rules. Every day we hear about people getting away with crap like this and nothing is done. When should we do something on our own? When someone busts down our door and demands let in? When someone crashes into us in a car and we have to spend the rest of our lives paying for someone else's mistakes? Or when someone else's flag is flying in place of ours.
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09:47 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Don't confuse thumping ones chest and spouting off on an Internet forum condoning anything. It takes a great deal of fortitude to do the right thing when everyone tells you its wrong. Its easy to say you would have done something after the fact. But it takes guts to do the right thing even if it puts you in harms way. I do think talking to the manager would have been the better thing but I wasn't there, maybe he would have been attacked if he had confronted them. A hit and run to take the flag down may have been the best thing to do. I haven't heard anything else about it, just waiting to see how it plays out. If it was just a mistake then why hasn't the owner said something?
If anything we should be talking about the local branch of government not the Vet or each other.
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10:07 PM
Vonov Member
Posts: 3745 From: Nashville,TN,USA Registered: May 2004
...As a matter of fact, in my very first post in this thread I was expressing my surprise that it was the Mexican flag that was left behind to fly over the establishment.
As I recall, the gentleman was saying they weren't getting the American flag back...and if you watch the video closely, you'll see him cutting the grommets out of the Mexican flag to prevent them raising that particular flag again. IMHO, if Mexico was so damn great that they feel the need to fly their flag, they oughta just go back there...
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10:10 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I do think talking to the manager would have been the better thing but I wasn't there...
And for all we know, maybe the bar owner had already been consulted about the flags. And maybe he had refused to comply. And maybe he got what he deserved. Maybe, maybe, maybe...
However, you’ve got to wonder about the mentality of some of the people in this forum when it’s not acceptable to ask any questions or express any concerns.
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10:24 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
IMHO, if Mexico was so damn great that they feel the need to fly their flag, they oughta just go back there...
Down the block from me is a large Italian family who’ve done very well over the last fifty years they’ve been in Canada. They have both a Canadian and an Italian flag flying above their home. I don’t feel threatened or insulted by this display. They love Canada but they’re also proud of their heritage. That’s fine by me. (I should mention that the Canadian flag flies above the Italian one. )
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10:52 PM
Oct 7th, 2007
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Patrick: Down the block from me is a large Italian family who’ve done very well over the last fifty years they’ve been in Canada. They have both a Canadian and an Italian flag flying above their home. I don’t feel threatened or insulted by this display. They love Canada but they’re also proud of their heritage. That’s fine by me. (I should mention that the Canadian flag flies above the Italian one. )
Not threatened or insulted, OK. I don't believe anyone here felt threatened by this, but I did feel insulted for the disrespect this act displayed for my country. How you feel about your country and flag is your issue. I assume Canadian laws are similar to ours but then, that's not my problem. I can assure you that I would not fly an American flag in Canada above the Canadian flag. If I did, I would expect some Canadians (obviously not you) to be upset by that action.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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06:43 AM
PFF
System Bot
Vonov Member
Posts: 3745 From: Nashville,TN,USA Registered: May 2004
Down the block from me is a large Italian family who’ve done very well over the last fifty years they’ve been in Canada. They have both a Canadian and an Italian flag flying above their home. I don’t feel threatened or insulted by this display. They love Canada but they’re also proud of their heritage. That’s fine by me. (I should mention that the Canadian flag flies above the Italian one. )
I don't have a problem with showing pride in one's heritage...what I have a big problem with, is people who knowingly break the laws of this country, not to mention international law, to get here, and then disrespect, and in some cases, advocate open revolt against the laws of the country they came here to make money in. If you want to be a part of Mexico, go back; if you want to come here legally, and contribute to the country, welcome.
My next door neighbor Clemente came here legally from Mexico; he and I are good friends. He's expressed the exact same viewpoint, and gets angry when his countrymen, by their actions, make all Mexicans look bad. He's an electrician, mostly works construction, and tells his workers the first day on each jobsite: "If you're here to work, fine, stick around, we got plenty to do. If you're here to draw a paycheck for doing as little as you can get away with, or you're gonna steal, you can leave now, cause I've worked too hard to establish my reputation for you to tear it down. Show some pride in who you are, and you can make good money here." He doesn't hire his helpers, the general contractor does that, but he's been known to fire quite a few, and if Clemente tells the contractor to fire someone, they're gone, no questions asked.
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11:28 AM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
Originally posted by aceman: Poopsmith, We need to go for a 30 minute drive in South O. Maybe with your eyes wide open I'll show you that it was not simple ignorance of the law.
I get what everybody is rooting for and under the circumstances that the Mexican bar owner was deliberately trying voice a negative statement against America then I agree with Jims idea to take action but still that does not make stealing his property a forgivable act.
If you really wanted to do something about South Omaha then you should move there and be a part of the community and be a voice in the community that promotes American values and that being an American patriot is the right thing to do, but I'm going to assume that South Omaha is what it is today because all the wealthy white folk are saying, "I don't want to move there it's full of poor illegal immigrants". Because of no action we gave up a piece of America so I'm going to go out on a limb and say why not let them fly there flag, the veterans and true patriots gave it up fare and square with out a fight. This only supports my beliefs in what America should be and that is a total unsegregated peaceful and happy nation not the divided territory based rebellious nation. We do a lot of great things here in America and we could do a lot more if we weren't so full of hate and classism.
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12:13 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
No, I think the reason why South O is what it is, is because it's trashed and a wealthy white, black, Asian or Hispanic person wants nothing to do with a trashed part of town. What's the first thing a successful white or black person raised in North O does? He or she moves the Hell out! Why? Because it's filled with too much ignorant trash and they no longer want to be affiliated with the trash that wallow in their own trash.
BTW, I looked at apartments in South O for myself while I am geographically separated from my family. I got a better deal living in Millard with an old college friend.
I Because of no action we gave up a piece of America so I'm going to go out on a limb and say why not let them fly there flag, the veterans and true patriots gave it up fare and square with out a fight. This only supports my beliefs in what America should be and that is a total unsegregated peaceful and happy nation not the divided territory based rebellious nation. We do a lot of great things here in America and we could do a lot more if we weren't so full of hate and classism.
Hahahahahaha that is one of the moist stupid defeatist ignorant ramblings I have read on this forum yet! How about we forcefully round them up and kick them the hell out of this country instead of rolling over and giving up as your kind would like to do. Ya, put the blame on people with money not wanting to live with scum! good one!
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02:29 PM
LITEDAZE Member
Posts: 1894 From: Timmins ON Canada Registered: Apr 2004
you gotta admit though, it's awesome to live in a country where you can take the time to argue about which flag goes where, and still eat 3 square meals a day in a house with cars in the driveway.
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02:58 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I can assure you that I would not fly an American flag in Canada above the Canadian flag. If I did, I would expect some Canadians (obviously not you) to be upset by that action.
Not me? Depends on what your intent was, but if you think I’d not react if you were purposely trying to be disrespectful to Canada, then you don't know me at all.
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
...but I did feel insulted for the disrespect this act displayed for my country.
quote
Originally posted by Vonov:
...what I have a big problem with, is people who knowingly break the laws of this country, not to mention international law, to get here, and then disrespect, and in some cases, advocate open revolt against the laws of the country they came here to make money in.
quote
Originally posted by The Poopsmith:
I get what everybody is rooting for and under the circumstances that the Mexican bar owner was deliberately trying voice a negative statement against America then I agree with Jims idea to take action...
Reading these last three posts, it appears like you’re all possibly indicating that the bar owner was KNOWINGLY breaking the law and DELIBERATELY trying to be insulting. Has it been positively determined now that this was actually the situation? Did the bar owner admit to this? If so, I’m glad (as I’ve previously stated) that Jim Brosser did what he did. However, if not, then we’re back to square one.
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03:01 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
you gotta admit though, it's awesome to live in a country where you can take the time to argue about which flag goes where, and still eat 3 square meals a day in a house with cars in the driveway.
Yep, compared to a lot of places in the world, we've got it pretty damn easy here in Canada and the States.
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03:17 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Patrick: then we’re back to square one.
We never left square one, folks line up on one side of an issue and dig their feet in, try to make their points but seldom does the other side listen. I may be guilty but I sincerely try to consider other points of view. Whether or not the owner of the bar intentionally did this disrespectful act has not been determined but, considering it was a hispanic bar, the owner was apparently hispanic, we can at least safely assume that the flag of choice was flown on top. In addition, as several traffic enforcement officers have informed me, ignorance of the law is no excuse. The person that hung those flags does not have to recite the Pledge of Alligance but, he damn well better not hang the flag inappropriately.
How's that song go, "You don't spit into the wind, you don't pull down the mask of the Ole Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with Jim." Let me add one line to that, Don't diss our flag. I know it doesn't fit but, you get the idea. You want to crap in your own hat, fine. But you don't want to go there while in our country. I used to have below my signature a quote I heard once, it went something like this. You have the right to burn our flag, it's a freedom of speech thing. Do us one favor though, douse yourself in gas just before lighting the match. That's the way I feel about this issue. I wouldn't show disrespect to to a Mexican, Canadian, Russian or even a French flag and I expect that same respect for Ole Glory. ------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-07-2007).]
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03:29 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
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