My wife and I were talking about this this morning. She reminded me of my anger when they flew the flags the same way In Kalifornia. Had it been closer I would have done the same thing. Thank you Jim Brosser! I just gave you a plus.
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12:21 PM
Finally_Mine_86_GT Member
Posts: 4809 From: Hyde Park, New York Registered: Sep 2006
Who wants to bet this Jim fellow is charged by some human rights group? I'm willing to bet some minority group will try and say that he is inciting hatred against Mexicans and he will end up being the one charged, not the owner of the store. Thats what would happen in Canada anyways.
That's only mildly irritating. Flying the US flag beneath the flag of another country is just asking for trouble. The guy gets big props from me, that's for sure. The only way to have one-upped what he did would be to burn the Mexican flag. But then, as someone else said, that probably would have been construed as an action of hate. How ironic is that? Illegals can burn American flags, and that's OK, but citizens can't burn the flags of illegals. Go figure.
Did any one read some of the remarks left on the news page? They cant defend what the Mexican did so they attack the guy that took the flag down. Call him a homeless bum and slander him because he bought the knife from e-bay. I bought my knife from a PFF member, I also spent 8 years in the Navy. Does buying a knife from someone mean I'm not a vet?
I applaud him for his actions, I do think he should have asked to speak to the manager of the bar first but I think his act should not be punished. Lets hope this is all it takes and the next time.. well lets just hope there wont be a next time.
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05:44 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Did any one read some of the remarks left on the news page? They cant defend what the Mexican did so they attack the guy that took the flag down. Call him a homeless bum and slander him because he bought the knife from e-bay. I bought my knife from a PFF member, I also spent 8 years in the Navy. Does buying a knife from someone mean I'm not a vet?
Thats normal... Anyone who stands up is automaticlly torn down personally.. Thats the price paid for waging war on ignorance.
Jim was a U.S. soldier and now he is a citizen soldier... And he has bahig bawls.
This is what every American should have done. The flag of a foriegn country over the US flag on US soil is a sign of disrespect and defeat. I would have removed both flags and threw the mexican flag in the dirt and taken the stars and stripes home and hung it high ! Vets get it done good job Jim !
Most of the people attacking this guy just don't want to stand up for what he did because they're afraid of being called a racist. What people should be outraged about is that it stayed up long enough for people to post about it on the internet and for the media to send a photographer out.
That shop owner is lucky enough to run into a SANE vet.
[This message has been edited by IEatRice (edited 10-04-2007).]
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07:27 PM
OKflyboy Member
Posts: 6607 From: Not too far from Mexico Registered: Nov 2004
I did something similar when I worked as a Security Guard at Delphi Catalyst (GM's Catalytic Converter manufactuer) here in Tulsa. They were having some VIPs from Japan visiting and they put the Japanese flag above the American flag to "honor" the VIPs. Once I saw it I told them that was illegal and they needed to take it down. They refused. I worked the graveyard shift - unsupervised. I'll be damned if that Japanese flag had gone "missing" when the morning shift came in. As the flagpoles were no where near my rounds I could not be held responsible for its loss, and they never blamed me, although since I was the only one I know of that protested, I'm not sure why they never did...
Wow that guy was really upset and the proprietors of the bar looked rather bewildered by the whole thing which make me wonder weather they really knew if it was illegal or not. But you know the better action is to be an irate white guy with a huge knife and do something about it rather than have a peaceful confrontation about the matter. But I guess some may argue that talking to them wouldn't help because they probably don't speak English.
You know if we really had any balls we should start flying American Indian flags above our Euro American flag.
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09:12 PM
OKflyboy Member
Posts: 6607 From: Not too far from Mexico Registered: Nov 2004
He should be. You should be. <sigh> Whatever happened to patriotism...
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the proprietors of the bar looked rather bewildered by the whole thing which make me wonder weather they really knew if it was illegal or not.
My understanding was that they refused to take it down but I can't find that now...
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But you know the better action is to be an irate white guy with a huge knife and do something about it rather than have a peaceful confrontation about the matter.
See above, sometimes talking accomplishes nothing and action must be taken.
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You know if we really had any balls we should start flying American Indian flags above our Euro American flag.
Eh? Not sure I even understand what you mean here...
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09:27 PM
OKflyboy Member
Posts: 6607 From: Not too far from Mexico Registered: Nov 2004
On one hand America is the land of the free and a place where your able to flourish and make something of your self and on the other hand we try our best to not offer those same rights to everybody who lives here. There is no black, white, mexican, or asian person on this continent that is a native of this land we are all foreigners only our government makes us the United States of America. If you really believe that the United States of America deserves everything it owns you should catch up on it's history and realize how brutal we are and how our government is not so much a peaceful, loving, generous establishment as we are a bully with a large group of gang members.
We more or less took this land from the native americans we didn't roll in and present them with a business plan to build a sweet government where everybody can be free and live in peace we came in and tried to convince the indians that we deserve this land more then them and when the natives thought that was a bad idea we killed them and or swindeled them out of territories and convinced everyone that they were the evil ones and not deserving. So if the natives have flags we should fly them first because they are more the rightful owners then we.
And as for veterans I always support the troops if not the war but nothing is ever gained by bringing the fight back with you if your going to have to put up with a tough time because you got drafted and saw some sh$t my prayers go out to you that you will be the last to have to go through something like that but to come back and be all eliteist and hateful is not proving that you helped our country any at all in fact your only making it worse. I'm sorry that dude had to tough it out in Vietnam but to look down on somebody else because they have a different background is rude and hateful and just like any of the enemies we were sent to fight.
It's not about patriotism it's about knowing who you are and I know as an american that we live here because we did a lot of terrible things and a lot of good things and out of it all we have a relatively safe, and peaceful place to live. If I ever got drafted to fight I would fight for our country with out hesitation but I expect every other race and creed to be by my side free of judgment of each other and fighting only because it will help others realize the same freedoms we have and nothing else. That's all I have to say about that.
On one hand America is the land of the free and a place where your able to flourish and make something of your self and on the other hand we try our best to not offer those same rights to everybody who lives here. There is no black, white, Mexican, or Asian person on this continent that is a native of this land we are all foreigners only our government makes us the United States of America. If you really believe that the United States of America deserves everything it owns you should catch up on it's history and realize how brutal we are and how our government is not so much a peaceful, loving, generous establishment as we are a bully with a large group of gang members.
We more or less took this land from the native Americans we didn't roll in and present them with a business plan to build a sweet government where everybody can be free and live in peace we came in and tried to convince the Indians that we deserve this land more then them and when the natives thought that was a bad idea we killed them and or swindled them out of territories and convinced everyone that they were the evil ones and not deserving. So if the natives have flags we should fly them first because they are more the rightful owners then we.
And as for veterans I always support the troops if not the war but nothing is ever gained by bringing the fight back with you if your going to have to put up with a tough time because you got drafted and saw some sh$t my prayers go out to you that you will be the last to have to go through something like that but to come back and be all elitist and hateful is not proving that you helped our country any at all in fact your only making it worse. I'm sorry that dude had to tough it out in Vietnam but to look down on somebody else because they have a different background is rude and hateful and just like any of the enemies we were sent to fight.
It's not about patriotism it's about knowing who you are and I know as an American that we live here because we did a lot of terrible things and a lot of good things and out of it all we have a relatively safe, and peaceful place to live. If I ever got drafted to fight I would fight for our country with out hesitation but I expect every other race and creed to be by my side free of judgment of each other and fighting only because it will help others realize the same freedoms we have and nothing else. That's all I have to say about that.
So what would you suggest, should I start learning Spanish? My wife is, I tend to want to stay where I am. I was raised to believe I am an American, a citizen of the united states. He took a flag down, one displayed in the wrong manner. Sure he was angry about it. What are we suppose to do, would you leave your home today if the people that owned it before you came back and said get out. My grandfather told me stories of brave men and women fighting to keep us free. Fighting to keep the right to live the way we are living. Now politicians and homesteaders are taking it away and when one of us fights back who is wrong? I grew up here as well as 3 generations of my family. We dug in the dirt for a living and served our country in the armed services. Does that count for nothing? If you lived here before and had to leave I am sorry, I live here now and I will not leave without a fight. I paid for the right along side of good friends. I go to work every day and support myself while at the same time I contribute and support this country. This is not the land of the "Free" you can not just move in and take what doesn't belong to you. Before you start with me remember what I said, I grew up her as did my parents and their parents. I dont care if you want to come here and live, just please follow the rules and dont look down on me for doing the same thing I have been doing all my life, the things I have been told were my rights from birth.
Now as for the flag, I would have asked to talk to the manager. The local government should have done that before anyone else had a chance, a nice visit from someone in plain clothing would have been the best thing to do. If the owner of the shop was just in error then it could have been corrected. If not then it could have been taken down for what it was.
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07:33 AM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: So what would you suggest, should I start learning Spanish? I was raised to believe I am an American, a citizen of the united states.
No but you shouldn't tell anybody whom looks different or speaks a different language that they are any less of an American and entitled to less then you because they came from somewhere else. If you do that makes you a racist and/or elitist and you truly don't stand for what America represents.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: He took a flag down, one displayed in the wrong manner. Sure he was angry about it.
No he forcefully removed a symbol and said that those Americans didn't deserve to own it and then tried to back it up by saying he is more American then them. But our declaration of independence say that we are all equal in creation. What he did was just as much an act of pride as it was an act of hate and I don't think his actions were very American at all.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: What are we suppose to do, would you leave your home today if the people that owned it before you came back and said get out.
Well I wouldn't try to tell them I have more of a right to live there then them. That's where our government supports me in that if I legally acquire a piece of property that I am entitled to live there until either it is a threat to the United States government and it's people or I sell it legally to another person. Obviously I'm not going to give away anything for free that I legally have ownership of but the land that holds the things I own is less important to me than the things I own that are on the land.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: My grandfather told me stories of brave men and women fighting to keep us free. Fighting to keep the right to live the way we are living.
I respectfully tell you that you are not free being free means you have no attachment to any form of government or law. If you want to test your freedom go out and shoot somebody and keep note of how your life changes.
What they fought for and what it truly counts for is the continuing protection of our government which for the most part allows us to live peacefully amongst others with the ability to be educated and prosper in a legal orderly fashion. Don't get me wrong that is absolutely worth fighting for and I am a grateful American to any one who has fought and died for those rights, but if you believe that because you fought for them that you are more an American than any other person whom is legally American then you are wrong. If you try to convince me that fighting for those rights makes you more entitled to any one thing more then me then you truly don't stand for what America is.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: We dug in the dirt for a living and served our country in the armed services. Does that count for nothing?
These are two different but coinciding things. You made a living off the land because your were free to choose your profession and make a living in a legal manner. If the United States said that farming were illegal believe me, you would have found a different profession also if the same government said you couldn't farm on the land you were then you would have to move or be treated as an enemy of the United States. As for being in the armed services you fight for the right to uphold the beliefs and laws of the United States. The American government allowed you to have a farming profession and legally own your land so that is what your hard work and fighting counts for. That by no means is a unworthy or dishonorable thing.
The United States government did not build North America we came and we took it so by all accounts your land may have been once the rightful property of someone else whom was killed or tricked out of it by people who believed they did not deserve it. Does that sound rightful and free to you? It doesn't to me but then again it is what our government does and if I want to respect our government then I have to deal with it or legally convince our government to make amends.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Now politicians and homesteaders are taking it away and when one of us fights back who is wrong? I grew up here as well as 3 generations of my family.
The key words here is take and fight and that's how our government became as wide spread and powerful as it is today. We have government over this land because we took it and fought for it instead of respectfully acquiring it and living peacefully amongst each other. What makes us "legal" in owning it is that our government still fights for our right to buy and trade land and goods and monies for documents that say we own something and the law backs us up. Let's say we were invaded by another country and they won, all your deeds and monies and property would not be worth anything unless the new government up held the same laws and rights you once had under the former government.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: If you lived here before and had to leave I am sorry,
America is about as advanced a culture as it gets so far, so I agree if any one is denied the dignities of human life that America upholds then that is truly sad.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: I live here now and I will not leave without a fight. I paid for the right along side of good friends.
Exactly and so long as your fighting those whom seek to upset your American rights you will supported by our government, but because you fought and paid doesn't mean the law protects you more than it does any other American. It is not your right to go and destroy any other Americans property or well being because you shot at somebody who doesn't like our way of life.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: I go to work every day and support myself while at the same time I contribute and support this country.
If you don't contribute you will surely find that your rights are not as equal as those who do but working for survival does not make you an American that makes you a human being.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:This is not the land of the "Free" you can not just move in and take what doesn't belong to you. Before you start with me remember what I said, I grew up here as did my parents and their parents.
These two things are contradictory first off the United States of America is only a government and like I said before we did not build North America we came and took it. My family is mostly from Europe and mostly from Germany as are most of it's inhabitants. As far as we know what we call Indians were the true first inhabitants of the North American region there for they are rightfully named "Native Americans" everyone else is a foreigner including any generation of anybodies family. Because your previous generations migrated from a different land and agreed to support this government do you believe that you are the rightful owner of this land and it's resources?
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:I dont care if you want to come here and live, just please follow the rules and dont look down on me for doing the same thing I have been doing all my life, the things I have been told were my rights from birth.
Exactly and that applies to any person protected under American law including those whom fought for those rights and those whom acquired those rights legally under our government. The guy whom cut down the American flag from the Mexican bar must have thought that the proprietors weren't entitled to the same rights as him and should have know better. While I would uphold the beliefs that the owner shouldn't have had any other countries flag above ours, I would also have to disagree that treating someone as a lesser person and stealing there property is the right thing to do. Respectfully both parties were at fault and the actions on both parts could have been solved peacefully. I support neither party but it is my duty as an American to see that no person is treated unfairly.
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Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Now as for the flag, I would have asked to talk to the manager. The local government should have done that before anyone else had a chance, a nice visit from someone in plain clothing would have been the best thing to do. If the owner of the shop was just in error then it could have been corrected. If not then it could have been taken down for what it was.
I whole heartedly agree with those actions and you show that you are a true American by letting our government be the enforcer of our laws. My over all point is that many are quick to cheer for those who are prideful and hateful under the belief that only a certain people are allowed to have certain rights. I just decided to interject that what most consider being a true American is not being an American at all and is in fact not supporting the strength and prosperity of our country.
Be open minded and educated not angry, racist and/or elitist. I hope you all understand my intentions are not to bash anybody but to remind them what it means to uphold our rights as Americans weather your decencies are European, African, Mexican, Asian, Israeli, Iranian, Iraqi, Canadian, Russian, ect...
I don't quite understand this fella's actions. Why didn't he cut the Mexican flag down instead and leave the American one attached?
He wanted and respected the flag HE fought for. If you were an American Vet you should have gotten that. He was apparently not there to do damage to the other flag or disrespect Mexicans. To me that is very honorable and I respect and applaud Jim.
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02:35 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I think the store owner was a bit confused. More than likily he didn't consider the flags order on the pole but that he just wanted to show he was a part of both country's. Hopefully someone explains why people are upset. Either way the vet that took down the flag commited a crime. I would have done the same except I would have explained it to the store owner and given him a chance to fix it before I took it. While I agree with the vet I don't agree with what little info I have that what he did was the right way of doing what he did.
Now if the owner had this explained to him and he refused then I am actually surprised thats all that happened. It could have been real ugly.
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03:41 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
He wanted and respected the flag HE fought for. If you were an American Vet you should have gotten that. He was apparently not there to do damage to the other flag or disrespect Mexicans. To me that is very honorable and I respect and applaud Jim.
Okay, let’s see if I have this straight now. Because this fella is an American vet, he’s permitted to vandalize someone’s property, he’s allowed to steal an American flag, and it’s somehow honorable for him to toss another country’s flag in the dirt? Does that about cover all bases?
For all we know, the Mexican-American owner of the bar was proudly flying both flags with no knowledge that it was insulting to have the Mexican flag flying above the American one.
However, it would’ve made for a boring video to show the owner of the bar happily complying with a polite request to reposition the flags flying above his establishment.
What I wonder is, what would happen if the same situation existed in another country. For the sake of argument, I go down to Mexico and open up a little shop. I put a flag pole outside and put up the American flag above the Mexican flag. More than likely, my little shop would be reduced to ashes in a short amount of time. To put another country's flag above the one you're residing in at that moment is the political equivalent of shooting the bird. Total disrespect. Did they not know how to hang the flags? Possibly. But I'm guessing protocol is much the same in just about every country. Were they asked nicely to swap the flag's positions? Don't know that either. But I'm guessing they wouldn't have even if they were asked or even ordered to. Why? Because the local government probably would've backed them and made the entire town start flying Mexican flags out of respect for those guys instead of flying this country's flag. After all, we have to try to make ev-er-y-one happy don't we?
------------------ Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck '87 GT Auto '88 Ferrario '84 Indy
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04:24 PM
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4547 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
What I wonder is, what would happen if the same situation existed in another country. For the sake of argument, I go down to Mexico and open up a little shop. I put a flag pole outside and put up the American flag above the Mexican flag. More than likely, my little shop would be reduced to ashes in a short amount of time. To put another country's flag above the one you're residing in at that moment is the political equivalent of shooting the bird. Total disrespect. Did they not know how to hang the flags? Possibly. But I'm guessing protocol is much the same in just about every country. Were they asked nicely to swap the flag's positions? Don't know that either. But I'm guessing they wouldn't have even if they were asked or even ordered to. Why? Because the local government probably would've backed them and made the entire town start flying Mexican flags out of respect for those guys instead of flying this country's flag. After all, we have to try to make ev-er-y-one happy don't we?
Heaven forbid you make the wrong cartoon - they'll firebomb you.
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04:26 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 39096 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Were they asked nicely to swap the flag's positions? Don't know that either. But I'm guessing they wouldn't have even if they were asked or even ordered to. Why? Because the local government probably would've backed them and made the entire town start flying Mexican flags out of respect for those guys instead of flying this country's flag.
I didn’t realize that Reno Nevada was such a hotbed of Mexican solidarity.
Whade, you’ve made an awful lot of assumptions in your post (only some of which I quoted). I suspect these assumptions probably make it much easier to defend (and dare I say, applaud) illegal and possibly uncalled for and/or unnecessary actions.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-05-2007).]
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04:43 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
On one hand America is the land of the free and a place where your able to flourish and make something of your self and on the other hand we try our best to not offer those same rights to everybody who lives here. There is no black, white, mexican, or asian person on this continent that is a native of this land we are all foreigners only our government makes us the United States of America. If you really believe that the United States of America deserves everything it owns you should catch up on it's history and realize how brutal we are and how our government is not so much a peaceful, loving, generous establishment as we are a bully with a large group of gang members.
We more or less took this land from the native americans we didn't roll in and present them with a business plan to build a sweet government where everybody can be free and live in peace we came in and tried to convince the indians that we deserve this land more then them and when the natives thought that was a bad idea we killed them and or swindeled them out of territories and convinced everyone that they were the evil ones and not deserving. So if the natives have flags we should fly them first because they are more the rightful owners then we.
And as for veterans I always support the troops if not the war but nothing is ever gained by bringing the fight back with you if your going to have to put up with a tough time because you got drafted and saw some sh$t my prayers go out to you that you will be the last to have to go through something like that but to come back and be all eliteist and hateful is not proving that you helped our country any at all in fact your only making it worse. I'm sorry that dude had to tough it out in Vietnam but to look down on somebody else because they have a different background is rude and hateful and just like any of the enemies we were sent to fight.
It's not about patriotism it's about knowing who you are and I know as an american that we live here because we did a lot of terrible things and a lot of good things and out of it all we have a relatively safe, and peaceful place to live. If I ever got drafted to fight I would fight for our country with out hesitation but I expect every other race and creed to be by my side free of judgment of each other and fighting only because it will help others realize the same freedoms we have and nothing else. That's all I have to say about that.
Since you are apparently a history buff, then you know that through out history, civilizations and cultures have been changed, moved, eliminated and conquered. Your argument about flying a Native American or Indian American Flag is way off base. Every country on this planet has pushed someone around at some point, every Indian tribe was fighting with some other tribe at one point or the other. What you see today on a map is who won. The winner gets to write the history and enjoy the spoils of the conquest. Compare our short history to some of the more established countries of Europe or Asia, we really don't know the defination of brutality. You can't tell me that I don't have American rights both by birthright and by the fact that I and millions of other veterans have served to keep your's and everyone else's freedom intact. The argument that we're all foreigners is quite frankly BS. If you really are a history buff, you know what I'm saying is true, the guilt trip doesn't work.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-05-2007).]
Jim Brosser, Good job! 
