You may find this hard to believe, but this country is large enough and with a population of 300 million, there are enough people for there to be.... *gasp* ... more than 1 issue at a time.
Kerry's "joke" doesn't get Bush off the hook for his actions as president. Bush's actions as president doesn't give Kerry or anyone else carte blanche to get away with anything just because the "issue" should be Bush.
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11:14 PM
fieroluv Member
Posts: 1951 From: Ft Wayne, IN USA Registered: Jul 2002
Can they get in trouble for what they did? Absolutely. Could they get court martialed. Yes, but probably won't. Maybe some extra duty and a bust in pay grade, but not a court martial.
The offense is conduct un-becoming.
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11:18 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Can they get in trouble for what they did? Absolutely. Could they get court martialed. Yes, but probably won't. Maybe some extra duty and a bust in pay grade, but not a court martial.
The offense is conduct un-becoming.
Well damn! I just zoomed in on that picture.....I can't clearly make out a face, rank or a name tag. (Although, I think I can tell you where exactly that picture was taken by just looking at the building)
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11:22 PM
Falcon4 Member
Posts: 1189 From: Fresno, CA, USA Registered: Oct 2006
They need people and are willing to take in even the most wussy candyass there is... christ man.. stress cards?!?!??!???!
What happens when the bombs start dropping and the bullet fly overhead...
pull out a stress card and hand it to the enemy? WOW.. thats pathetic.
Okay, maybe now you need the little lesson time. Ever stopped to think that maybe the military needed more than brainless brawns? Maybe the smartest people that could help the military succeed more efficiently were getting scared off by the assholes yelling at every living object? Yes, military members need discipline. Often times they have it already, and don't need to have some screaming prick spitting last night's liquor in your face while screaming how much a spineless retard you are, to get "discipline". And to top it all off, some people react the opposite way to getting shouted at... they don't know what the **** to do when the bullets start flying because they're too afraid of getting yelled at again!
The military has definitely changed - but that doesn't mean it's gotten weaker or wimpier. It's just getting smarter. Hell, the military needs smart people now more than ever. It's about ****ing time they quit scaring off all the smart kids.
But... where the heck has this topic gone anyway? Freakin' hell. Someone hand 84Bill a grenade so he'll run around screaming like a kid and leave this topic alone... >.<
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'87 Fiero GT, Automatic, 153k miles, stock everything, just trying to make it all work again. :D
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11:28 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
John Kerry is a Senator and as such is to be respected for that position by those in the military. In fact all military personel are subordinate to even you and me. Sir or Mam is how we are.. I mean was trained to address all civilian personel. Now thing may have changed over the years but I'm certin this will not go un noticed by the commanders of this unit and there will be hell to pay..
As a civilian we can do those things like this but the military is never ever allowed to demonstrate that level of disrespect under any circumstances.
That's not exactly true. the UCMJ only covers the President and Vice. It says nothing about congress. Basically, "Jim Carry" is fair game. As a military man who was in Iraq and Kosovo, i'd love to have been in that pic
SSGT S. Williams USA Still Serving Today
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula T-tops CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"
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11:28 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Okay, maybe now you need the little lesson time. Ever stopped to think that maybe the military needed more than brainless brawns? Maybe the smartest people that could help the military succeed more efficiently were getting scared off by the assholes yelling at every living object? Yes, military members need discipline. Often times they have it already, and don't need to have some screaming prick spitting last night's liquor in your face while screaming how much a spineless retard you are, to get "discipline". And to top it all off, some people react the opposite way to getting shouted at... they don't know what the **** to do when the bullets start flying because they're too afraid of getting yelled at again!
The military has definitely changed - but that doesn't mean it's gotten weaker or wimpier. It's just getting smarter. Hell, the military needs smart people now more than ever. It's about ****ing time they quit scaring off all the smart kids.
But... where the heck has this topic gone anyway? Freakin' hell. Someone hand 84Bill a grenade so he'll run around screaming like a kid and leave this topic alone... >.<
I will respectfully disagree with nearly everything you stated here. Of course I grew up in the Army of the 80s. The military is weaker and wimpier. If I took a squad of 12 new Soldiers and told them to take a hill, 6 would ask why exactly they should take the hill, 4 would flat out refuse to obey the order, and 2 would say "F you Sarge, you take the damn hill if you want to."
I have more problems from the 26 and younger Soldiers in discipline, training, and values than I do with any other age group. 5 years ago, I would have said 24 and younger, 10 years ago I would have said 22 and younger. 5 years from now, I'll say 30 and younger.
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11:41 PM
Falcon4 Member
Posts: 1189 From: Fresno, CA, USA Registered: Oct 2006
Actually, I can tell you from experience that 6 would immediately try doing it, 4 would mimic what the other 6 are doing, and the last 2 would try asking what you meant by "take a hill", and try to do it properly.
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11:51 PM
Nov 3rd, 2006
84fierotrevor Member
Posts: 4998 From: puyallup washington Registered: Oct 2001
I managed to make it through basic only because I had the intestinal fortitude. I didn't have a stress card to hand out because my arms hurt so badly I couldn't even lift a ****ing spoon to my mouth to eat let alone get off a floor for almost two weeks. At 120 pounds I was a whimp but I sure as HELL could handle a screaming whining DI in my face. And to this day I still can. I gave 110% all the time, I pushed myself until I broke and I did break physiclly but not mentally. They never got into my head. No one has. So these stress cards are for pussies as far as I'm concerned because it's all in their head and they cant hang. Stress is life get on with it, either you can or you cant... I CAN and I DID.
The military must be in desperate need of people and apparently whimps can do the job.. now days. Well yay for you!
So... Kiss my ass buttface. Go ahead and give me a grenade, I'll shove it up your ass to my elbow and lick the pin afterward. Ya freakin candy ass whimp..
Matter of fact I qualified expert grenade, I can probably lob one into you bunghole if I wanted... but I want to make it more personal.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-03-2006).]
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12:21 AM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by htexans1: That's not exactly true. the UCMJ only covers the President and Vice. It says nothing about congress. Basically, "Jim Carry" is fair game. As a military man who was in Iraq and Kosovo, i'd love to have been in that pic
SSGT S. Williams USA Still Serving Today
I don't doubt you word on that but I'd be very reluctant to be involved in that pic.. Now if there was bet involving beer or something I may be much more inclined.
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12:45 AM
sostock Member
Posts: 5907 From: Grain Valley, MO Registered: May 2005
i thought the pic was pretty clever and i voted for Kerry.
sometimes when people find themselves in stressful situations the best solution is humor. theres a clip from Baghdad ER where they are interviewing this Army doctor. the doc tells this joke. doc: i have good news and bad news, which would you like first? soldier: what's the bad news? doc: you have lost both your legs at the knees, you will never walk again. soldier: good god, what could the good news be? doc: the guy in the bed next to you wants to buy your boots.
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01:02 AM
DtheC Member
Posts: 3395 From: Newton Iowa, USA Registered: Sep 2005
Considering Kerry graduated from an Ivy League School, and was subsiquently sent to Viet Nam, it's a real streatch to understand why a person with this background would even joke about this.
Maybe he's been subject to brainwashing by association to a political party, and is simply seeking peer aproval?
------------------ Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto. Turning white on top, like owner. Leaks a little, like owner. Doesn't smoke, unlike owner
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01:10 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Regardless of what John Kerry meant to say, what he did say came across as a slap in the face to the miliary personnel who have served and are currently serving in Iraq. He needed to apologize to them, immediately upon the realization of how is was taken by the public and military personnel. He made a serious mistake in taking more than a day to do so.
That's the gist of the situation, everything else is just window dressing.
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06:43 AM
fieroluv Member
Posts: 1951 From: Ft Wayne, IN USA Registered: Jul 2002
I do believe that Kerry messed up. However all he did was reword a statistic, and he did it badly. The statistic he was quoting is how some 90% of enlisted personnel come from poor families with little or no income. It's their way of getting out of da hood so to speak. And he was trying to emphasize staying in school and getting a good education so you don't have to enlist and go to a war that most of the country is against.
I don't believe he was trying to disrespect the people serving, even though he did. He just wanted to get his message across to stay in school. One of those cases of the mouth speaking before the brain can catch up and process what it is you are actually saying.
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07:49 AM
Mike Marden Member
Posts: 432 From: Fernandina Beach, FL Registered: Aug 2006
Fieroluv, think you hit the whole problem right on the nail head. Don't think there was any intention to insult the personnel serving in the military. As a 26 yr vet, (1966-1992) I've seen a lot of people stick their foot in their mouth because they didn't think things all the way to the end (or heaven forbid, mis-read what they wrote down) and that includes myself. Can't fault the guy for trying to make a point, just goofed on the execution. When I enlisted in '66, I was fortunate enough to get into a field which could have kept me out of combat (weather forecasting). However, I knew a lot of guys who's grades were not good enough to qualify for a technical skill, or a college scholarship, who were drafted into the Army and their first tour after AIT was Southeast Asia. In the '60s and early '70s, if you didn't get a scholarship, or had enough pull to get into the Guard, you ended up in SEA. It was a fact of life. It wasn't because you were dumb; it was because there was a need for warm bodies. That's what happens when the US gets into an open-ended conflict with no end insight. To me, the ones who seen to be feeling the major effect of the current situation are the reserve and guard units which have experienced multiple activations because the current administration doesn't want to suffer the consequences of instituting a draft to build a sufficient active-duty force to handle the current world-wide deployment of forces (whew, long sentence). When the reserve/guard has an operation tempo higher that a lot of active-duty units, something is wrong here. Guess I've opened another can of worms here, eh?
I will respectfully disagree with nearly everything you stated here. Of course I grew up in the Army of the 80s. The military is weaker and wimpier. If I took a squad of 12 new Soldiers and told them to take a hill, 6 would ask why exactly they should take the hill, 4 would flat out refuse to obey the order, and 2 would say "F you Sarge, you take the damn hill if you want to."
I have more problems from the 26 and younger Soldiers in discipline, training, and values than I do with any other age group. 5 years ago, I would have said 24 and younger, 10 years ago I would have said 22 and younger. 5 years from now, I'll say 30 and younger.
Ace you're a smart guy, do you honestly believe John Kerry meant to insult our troops, instead of insulting George Bush? I know you're a Republican and this is political season, but what possible good would come for Democrats out of railing against our troops one week from an election? And to top that off, why did Kerry focus on Bush through the whole speech only to suddenly call troops dumb at the end? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?
I see no reason to allow people in the military to believe they were insulted when they have enough to worry about as it is. Don't let these politicians yank your chains just so they can stay in office and reward their friends for helping get them elected.
And BTW for the rest of you, Kerry wasn't referring to the troops at all he was referring to the Administration getting the UNITED STATES stuck in Iraq. Meaning this is what happens when ignorant people start wars in places they don't understand. Some of you already know this, but I see even one Kerry defender thinks he actually was talking about military personnel. All you have to do is look at the whole speech and not take one line out of context. Kerry maybe a dufus when it comes to phrasing lines in his speeches, but he isn't a military hater. Even when he spoke out against Vietnam, he was talking about leadership and the strains it puts on ground troops. I know it takes some brain power to decipher the man's internsions, but they are earnest intentions if you look at them.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 11-03-2006).]
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09:47 AM
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
There is no such offense for an enlisted person. Conduct unbecoming is a Commissioned Officer offense only. So unless there are a bunch of "Os" holding the banner, that will not stick.
Originally posted by fierobear: You never tire of being a pain in the posterior? Or being wrong, for that matter?
Do you have focus problems or something? The topic isn't about me.
Try to stick to the topic, maybe even make a post about it. You might actually fool others into thinking you are slightly above the maturity level of a grade school child.
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11:05 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by 84Bill: Do you have focus problems or something? The topic isn't about me.
Wow, I couldn't tell, judging by your multitude of posts arguing about how YOU are right, and the rest of the people here (mostly active military) are WRONG.
quote
Try to stick to the topic, maybe even make a post about it. You might actually fool others into thinking you are slightly above the maturity level of a grade school child.
I'm here to learn something, being that I've never been in the military. As for maturity level, you prove yours (lack of, that is) on a DAILY basis. Regardless of the thread subject. So you ain't one to lecture me.
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11:12 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Only problem with your analysis is Kerry and Bush graduated from (for all intents and purposes) the same schools with what amounts to the same GPA from what I hear. I don't know of anyone in the administration that dropped out of school or didn't study, so just what point was he trying to make?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO:
Ace you're a smart guy, do you honestly believe John Kerry meant to insult our troops, instead of insulting George Bush? I know you're a Republican and this is political season, but what possible good would come for Democrats out of railing against our troops one week from an election? And to top that off, why did Kerry focus on Bush through the whole speech only to suddenly call troops dumb at the end? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?
I see no reason to allow people in the military to believe they were insulted when they have enough to worry about as it is. Don't let these politicians yank your chains just so they can stay in office and reward their friends for helping get them elected.
And BTW for the rest of you, Kerry wasn't referring to the troops at all he was referring to the Administration getting the UNITED STATES stuck in Iraq. Meaning this is what happens when ignorant people start wars in places they don't understand. Some of you already know this, but I see even one Kerry defender thinks he actually was talking about military personnel. All you have to do is look at the whole speech and not take one line out of context. Kerry maybe a dufus when it comes to phrasing lines in his speeches, but he isn't a military hater. Even when he spoke out against Vietnam, he was talking about leadership and the strains it puts on ground troops. I know it takes some brain power to decipher the man's internsions, but they are earnest intentions if you look at them.
Only problem with your analysis is Kerry and Bush graduated from (for all intents and purposes) the same schools with what amounts to the same GPA from what I hear. I don't know of anyone in the administration that dropped out of school or didn't study, so just what point was he trying to make?
John Stricker
There is no problem with my analysis, it just happens to be the truth. His point was valid, even if they did both end up at Yale law. Bush entered on a legacy, not because of his academic merits. And when he got there, he was considered intellectually lazy by his professors. Maybe he chose easy classes, who knows. Either way it wasn't Kerry that said "Shiite? Sunni? I Thought they were all Muslims!" That was our idiot in Chief. The same guy that tossed our top terror expert Dick Clarke aside after being warned Iraq was the wrong target, and the same guy who abandoned the great war planning mastermind Colin Powell. Remember the Powell doctrine? It's what won us the first Gulf war. Now we have the Rumsfelf doctrine. Just enough troops to loose control of security, and then loose the war because of it.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 11-03-2006).]
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11:22 AM
Mr. Pat Member
Posts: 1860 From: Melbourne, VIC Australia Registered: Apr 2003
Just realized that I might have come across a little rough in that last post. My apologies for that. However the military way of life gets softer and softer every day. Hell shortly after I joined they started issuing "stress" cards to the recruits in BMT. If they felt they were getting yelled at too much and too stressed out they would pull their little card out and have a little nap time. lol. Nothing like the wall-to-wall counseling and heavy labor that used to exist.
Either way I have to get to bed, still working 12 hour shifts.
Later.
Oh and thanks for correcting me there, however I don't have any pipes. Got rid of my hookah a couple years ago.
Dude when did this happen? I was in BMT 2 yrs ago and we didnt have stress cards. If you didnt like it you stood in the corner like a dunce. Least thats what my TI told a few kids to do.
------------------ 1986 GT, LT1/4T60E. In the middle of cam/port, new interior, paint and waiting on new wheels. Itll blow you away!! http://hometown.aol.com/ptfiero/index.html build http://dtcc.cz28.com/Customer/LT1Fiero/index.htm
Originally posted by fierobear: Wow, I couldn't tell, judging by your multitude of posts arguing about how YOU are right, and the rest of the people here (mostly active military) are WRONG.
So you set about hijacking a thread to prove your little personal vendetta? Like I said IF YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST. apparently the military has changed because I was NEVER allowed to demonstrate the level of disrespect these men demonstrated. Kerry IS NOT my hero nor do I even like the guy but IN UNIFORM I was tought maintain a certin level of profesionalism and disciplin. Apparently that is not the case anymore
So
**** off.
quote
I'm here to learn something, being that I've never been in the military.
Quite apparent you were never in the military because you lack a critical skill.. Learning with open ears instead of an open mouth. Paying attention to detail... Etc..
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11:30 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I don't care who said what at some point in the administration, this thread isn't about that. I don't care how Bush got in, you SAY he was just a legacy and didn't deserve to be there, but have nothing to back that up.
The fact remains he graduated with a passing GPA. From all accounts he had about the same GPA as John Kerry. For all YOU know, Kerry took easier classes than Bush. Let's face it, John Kerry hasn't exactly shown anybody that he has a gift for public speaking either, particularly after this last comment. Bush did stay in school. He has a degree from a very prestigious school, just like John Kerry. So what, exactly, was KERRY trying to make a joke about?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO:
There is no problem with my analysis, it just happens to be the truth. His point was valid, even if they did both end up at Yale law. Bush entered on a legacy, not because of his academic merits. And when he got there, he was considered intellectually lazy by his professors. Maybe he chose easy classes, who knows. Either way it wasn't Kerry that said "Shiite? Sunni? I Thought they were all Muslims!" That was our idiot in Chief. The same guy that tossed our top terror expert Dick Clarke aside after being warned Iraq was the wrong target, and the same guy who abandoned the great war planning mastermind Colin Powell. Remember the Powell doctrine? It's what won us the first Gulf war. Now we have the Rumsfelf doctrine. Just enough troops to loose control of security, and then loose the war because of it.
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11:39 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Quite apparent you were never in the military because you lack a critical skill.. Learning with open ears instead of an open mouth. Paying attention to detail... Etc..
Yes, Bill, you are sooo superior to me in every way. I bow to you.
