So for you, you'd advocate the death penalty? Otherwise it would be "cruel and unusual punishment", wouldn't it?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I can't think of ANYTHING worse than being locked in a cell for the rest of your life as a convicted murderer awaiting death row for something you know you didn't do. That would literally be hell. I'd be knocking my brains out against a cell wall once I knew I was never getting out.

It's the same **** , they are in there for years and years and years anyways. I say it's better to let a guilty man go free than to lock up 1 innocent.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I'm still trying to figure out if you were trying to be clever or you're just that ignorant. I'd like to think the former but I fear it's the latter. John Stricker

Calling me ignorant, I'll just add that to the long and growing list of insults you've directed at me. Sigh.

Damn, I hate having a stalker. Of course, it's just a cyberstalker, but next time I'm in Kansas I'll have to keep my eyes out for a psycho driving a combine.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Calling me ignorant, I'll just add that to the long and growing list of insults you've directed at me. Sigh. Damn, I hate having a stalker. Of course, it's just a cyberstalker, but next time I'm in Kansas I'll have to keep my eyes out for a psycho driving a combine. JazzMan

I suspect you are one of the very few people who came to that conclusion from his post. Believe it or not, the whole world isn't out to get you James. Or me, or anyone else for that matter. None of us are that dang important, even in our own minds.

You truly have managed to transform yourself into a pale imitation of what you once were to this group Jazzman. It's a sad thing to see.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Calling me ignorant, I'll just add that to the long and growing list of insults you've directed at me. Sigh. Damn, I hate having a stalker. Of course, it's just a cyberstalker, but next time I'm in Kansas I'll have to keep my eyes out for a psycho driving a combine. JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Ahh.. praises kindness and forgiveness, doesn't it..

There is abundant provision for kindness and forgiveness. Just interesting that you single out the things that you want. There also has to be provision for righteousness, justice, and holiness. Please refer back for multiple looks at the significantly missing portion of the face of the ONE dead girl.

Kindness? He got to live, what, 25 years? He wasn't beaten for his crimes, as far as I am aware of. He was given food and shelter from the elements. He obviously was given access to visitors, educational opportunities, writing opportunities, etc. Please, at this point, refer back to the dead girl with the significantly missing face. And then please try to again decry any deficiency of kindness.

Exodus 21:15 "And he that SMITETH his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death."

The hebrew word translated SMITETH there means kills. So I'm not quite sure what any contradiction would be. There was an establishment of a government system going on in that section, and was an authorizing by God to a group of people certain governmental authorities and responsibilities.

FYI. The Exodus section is a context of jewish law being established for that time period. Doesn't apply to us. The genesis section preceded the jewish law, and is a general principle.

You don't have to take it as a rule book. No problem. Johnnyk was the one bringing mortal sin into the whole issue. I just answered that specific erroneous viewpoint. And by the way, if you are taking the Bible as a metaphor, which is fine, what metaphor are you getting regarding how to handle murderers?

Figured I would share this. Take it for what it's worth.
Or not.

"In the midst of this media orgy of sympathy for Tookie, a short review of just some of his criminal history might be in order:

Since the press won't bring you up to date, perhaps we can help out. Tookie was convicted of murdering 7-11 clerk Albert Owens by shooting him twice in the back with a shotgun. Tookie bragged to his friends afterward that "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," and then laughed about doing it. Then there was the Yang family. Tsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin were immigrants from Taiwan...and they ran a motel in South Central Los Angeles. That was, until Tookie came on the scene. On March 11, 1979, Tookie kicked down the door to the motel office and shot all three and killed them, again with a shotgun.

So off Tookie went to death row. But if you listen to the media, we're supposed to believe Tookie became an angel in prison, right? Wrong...let's take a look at the Tookster's prison record and his "conversion." But wait...if you listen to the Hollywood left, we're supposed to believe Tookie was a model prisoner...he's reformed! He's renounced his killing ways! Not if you look at the facts.

In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up...and told a guard "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do...one of these days I'll trick you boy." Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate...and didn't stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." Sounds reformed to me. But there's more...1986...he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991...Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993. Get the idea?"

Link

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Figured I would share this. Take it for what it's worth. Or not. "In the midst of this media orgy of sympathy for Tookie, a short review of just some of his criminal history might be in order: Since the press won't bring you up to date, perhaps we can help out. Tookie was convicted of murdering 7-11 clerk Albert Owens by shooting him twice in the back with a shotgun. Tookie bragged to his friends afterward that "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," and then laughed about doing it. Then there was the Yang family. Tsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin were immigrants from Taiwan...and they ran a motel in South Central Los Angeles. That was, until Tookie came on the scene. On March 11, 1979, Tookie kicked down the door to the motel office and shot all three and killed them, again with a shotgun. So off Tookie went to death row. But if you listen to the media, we're supposed to believe Tookie became an angel in prison, right? Wrong...let's take a look at the Tookster's prison record and his "conversion." But wait...if you listen to the Hollywood left, we're supposed to believe Tookie was a model prisoner...he's reformed! He's renounced his killing ways! Not if you look at the facts. In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up...and told a guard "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do...one of these days I'll trick you boy." Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate...and didn't stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." Sounds reformed to me. But there's more...1986...he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991...Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993. Get the idea?" Link

Just to point out that it's very slanted and I along with others have pointed out that

A) Tookie was not a nice law abiding citizen when arrested or after being imprisoned until spending something like 6 years in solitary.

B) Every site I've seen that slanted for executing him uses this

" Tookie bragged to his friends afterward that "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," and then laughed about doing it."

What everyone fails to mention that this was testimony from a gang member, apparently one gang member. It's not something Tookie told cops, it's not something that came from multiple sources, seems that one guy said he was bragging all over town. I haven't seen anything that backs that testimony up, apparently the same guy is still out there saying it. Is it true? I have no idea... the guy saying Tookie said it could actually be the shooter for all I know.

C) Being convicted of horrendous murders doesn't mean you did it... all those freed from death row for false convictions show that. Tookie was not a good law abiding citizen when arrested for the murders... that's a given. He wasn't a good prisoner for the first decade or so while in prison either... that's a given. Still doesn't mean he committed the murders he died for.

D) His manner in dying, his manner in refusing to admit guilt to the end even if it might have saved his like. These add to the arguement that maybe he was telling the truth.

E) That editorial leaves out any mention of the good he did, much in the manner in which Arnold blew off the pleas based on one of his books dedications, the fact that he still insisted he is innocent of the murder charges and worse... claimed that his efforts at reducing gangs and gang violence was ineffective. Coming from a real model citizen... what has he done about gang violence, how good of a citizen was he in his youth... http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldoui1.html Good thing for him his past didn't stop him from being allowed to run a state.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Figured I would share this. Take it for what it's worth. Or not. "In the midst of this media orgy of sympathy for Tookie, a short review of just some of his criminal history might be in order: Since the press won't bring you up to date, perhaps we can help out. Tookie was convicted of murdering 7-11 clerk Albert Owens by shooting him twice in the back with a shotgun. Tookie bragged to his friends afterward that "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," and then laughed about doing it. Then there was the Yang family. Tsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and their daughter, Yee Chen Lin were immigrants from Taiwan...and they ran a motel in South Central Los Angeles. That was, until Tookie came on the scene. On March 11, 1979, Tookie kicked down the door to the motel office and shot all three and killed them, again with a shotgun. So off Tookie went to death row. But if you listen to the media, we're supposed to believe Tookie became an angel in prison, right? Wrong...let's take a look at the Tookster's prison record and his "conversion." But wait...if you listen to the Hollywood left, we're supposed to believe Tookie was a model prisoner...he's reformed! He's renounced his killing ways! Not if you look at the facts. In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up...and told a guard "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do...one of these days I'll trick you boy." Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate...and didn't stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." Sounds reformed to me. But there's more...1986...he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991...Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993. Get the idea?" Link

LOL, go back a day and what is Neil saying. Link.

"Tookie's Termination is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. It won't happen. First, the federal courts are likely to grant a stay or two. After all, he was only sentenced about 24 years ago. What's the rush? Secondly, I believe that the main reason the execution of Tookie Williams won't be executed is because Schwarzenegger knows full well that as soon as Tookie's death is announced there will be riots in South Central Los Angeles and elsewhere. The huge media exploitation of this story has made drop-dead sure of that. There are thugs just waiting for an excuse ... not a reason, an excuse. The rioting, of course, will lead to wide scale looting. There are a lot of aspiring rappers and NBA superstars who could really use a nice flat-screen television right now.

Look for Arnold to give Tookie a pass."

Neil predicting wide scale L.A. riots and looting!

Yep those South Central "thugs" "aspiring rappers and NBA superstars" are just waiting for an excuse. What a freaking racist.

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 12-15-2005).]

I believe that Tookie got what he had comin' here on earth ......... if in his soul he was truly redeemed .... then he shall be given his just rewards in heaven. ......... or hell.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: SUPREME COURT DECISION " Claims of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence have never been held to state a ground for federal habeas relief absent an independent constitutional violation occurring in the underlying state criminal proceeding....This rule is grounded in the principle that federal habeas courts sit to ensure that individuals are not imprisoned in violation of the Constitution—not to correct errors of fact. [Herrera v. Collins, June 25, 1993]" Another one... "Roger Keith Coleman was charged with murder in 1981. Throughout the eleven years between his arrest and his execution in May, 1992 he maintained that he was innocent; substantial evidence in the case pointed to another individual. A court-appointed attorney represented him at his trial. Coleman is widely believed by those who have followed his case to have been innocent, and to have received incompetent legal representation. The issue in the Supreme Court case was not actual innocence, however, but whether he could be denied an appeal in the Virginia Supreme Court simply because his attorney filed notice of appeal three days after the 30-day deadline. A key argument in the 6-3 decision is that the "petitioner" (Coleman) bears the risk for attorney errors. Justice O'Connor writes for the majority: There is no constitutional right to an attorney in state post-conviction proceedings.... Consequently, a petitioner cannot claim constitutionally ineffective assistance of counsel in such proceedings. [Coleman v. Thompson, June 24, 1991] One moral of this story seems to be that raising substantive issues after the original trial is extremely difficult, especially if one lacks the resources for adequate legal representation." SO it can happen, it has happened, it'll continue to happen. Again, I'm not anti death penalty, I'm anti a system where it doesn't work correctly... and that's what we have. The Green River Killer got life after murdering many dozens of women over a period of decades because he testified against himself... should have been tied out in the sun, had his entrails pulled out through his ass and salted while peppers were ground into his eyes along with his pecker being dipped in acid. Had the proof including DNA, physical evidence etc... Same goes for the DC sniper duo. They got caught with the weapon, in the car used etc etc.. fry them. Having a system more interested in closure and being sure the paperwork was correctly handled than being damned sure you've killing the right person isn't acceptable to me . Having a legal system more interested in dotting i's and crossing t's than the truth doesn't cut it for me.

That's all very interesting but hardly the point. Tell me the name of just one of the 1000 people executed since 1979 who was innocent and let me see the proof.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: A question for those happy to see Tookie executed... Is there ANYTHING that someone in his position could have done (guilty or not) that would make you feel he should have had his sentence changed to life without the possibility of parole? Just curious if anything would qualify for clemency.

That is an interesting assumption. That those that think he should get executed are HAPPY about it. I am FOR him being executed, but I'm not happy about it.

Regarding anything qualifying for clemency that he could do. No. No matter what good thing he did, it does not erase and fix what he had already done. He killed 4 people. Saving the others doesn't bring back the dead ones.

For all those feeling sorry for Tookie and his kind of person, please volunteer to adopt a murderer and take him home with you, then watch over him taking on the responsibility of him being a law abiding citizen. I know we'll all feel safer knowing that a convicted murderer is living at your home and we know you'll sleep peacefully with this fine misunderstood felon under your roof with your children. He could be a nice baby sitter for you and your family.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: For all those feeling sorry for Tookie and his kind of person, please volunteer to adopt a murderer and take him home with you, then watch over him taking on the responsibility of him being a law abiding citizen. I know we'll all feel safer knowing that a convicted murderer is living at your home and we know you'll sleep peacefully with this fine misunderstood felon under your roof with your children. He could be a nice baby sitter for you and your family.

Please go back and find a quote from someone in this thread expressing the opinion that Tookie should be released from prison.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Regarding anything qualifying for clemency that he could do. No. No matter what good thing he did, it does not erase and fix what he had already done. He killed 4 people. Saving the others doesn't bring back the dead ones.

But killing him does?

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: But killing him does?

No. That's the point. NOTHING brings them back. So once he DOES it, he CAN'T DO anything. Doing all these other proposed things doesn't. So then he has to pay for it. His payment for killing 4 is that HE gets killed for doing it.

Please refer back to the linked photo of the girl with a significant portion of her face blown off for assistance.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Jesus wasn't always right. People forget that.

I am mystified by your statement... I would assert the exact opposite.

I haven't read every post on here, I'm impressed though that it has as many responses as it does. I think it boils down to a very simple concept. A sentance was given based on events of the time. People died during that time. tookie has had time to change where as those that died have not. How can events of the future change the facts of the past let alone influence or change reasonable decisions based on evidence and the conscience of a judge and jury who decided his fate?

------------------

So if I got this straight, If I knock down your door, blow your wife / gf and kids away with a shotgun, I can write some childrens books about how bad it is to do that and they open the cell door and tell me to go on my merry way.........

And....just about anyone ever convicted of doing anything denied they were guilty, or that they were framed. I just saw that Joe Smith ( killed the 11 year old girl in Fl) said he was not guilty, it was mistaken identity even though everyone hes known for years immediately IDd him from the video tape of him kidnaping her, wore his uniform ... with his nametag on it, and drove a car exactly like his neighbors, whos he had happened to borrow at the same exact time.......give me a break. I hope they dont take 20 years to fry him...but Im sure they will. And when they do, they wont torture him like he did to her, theyll just put him down for a nap.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: put him down for a nap.

The exucution should be the same as the charge.. an eye for an eye..

Murder someone with a baseball bat... Batter up... rape and kill someone? ..heres bubba... stab someone?..have you met mr knife? shoot someone? click.. start running while I reload..

[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 12-15-2005).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: So if I got this straight, If I knock down your door, blow your wife / gf and kids away with a shotgun, I can write some childrens books about how bad it is to do that and they open the cell door and tell me to go on my merry way......... And....just about anyone ever convicted of doing anything denied they were guilty, or that they were framed. I just saw that Joe Smith ( killed the 11 year old girl in Fl) said he was not guilty, it was mistaken identity even though everyone hes known for years immediately IDd him from the video tape of him kidnaping her, wore his uniform ... with his nametag on it, and drove a car exactly like his neighbors, whos he had happened to borrow at the same exact time.......give me a break. I hope they dont take 20 years to fry him...but Im sure they will. And when they do, they wont torture him like he did to her, theyll just put him down for a nap.

No one here at all suggested opening the cell door and letting him go. Your twisting an arguement by falsifying what was proposed. If it could be proven the case against him was false to begin with and that he didn't commit the murders then and only then could I see him being released. With him dead that sure isn't going to happen.

In the second case you present which I know zip about... you state they have video of him committing the crime. That pretty much trumps snitches getting out of their own murder convictions by pointing at someone else and saying... "Yeah, he told me he did it".

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Ok, maybe a bad choice of words... it was near 4 am and I wasn't able to sleep. But you answered my question honestly and I thank you for that.

No problem, friend.

I just know that some people DO relish the revenge factor and are happy that the guy gets executed.

There are others that believe the death sentence is part of the execution of justice in a society, but it is a solemn, sad thing. I just wanted to be sure you know which camp I am in.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: You truly have managed to transform yourself into a pale imitation of what you once were to this group Jazzman. It's a sad thing to see. John Stricker

Now I'm a sad and pale imitation?

It just gets better and better.

BTW, I'll admit to being pale. Blond hair, light skin and eyes, childhood history of blistering sunburns, etc. The sun is my enemy.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Just curious, if it turns out that Williams was innocent, say a credible person comes forward with uncontrovertable proof that the murderer was someone else, what should be done? Should the Prosecutor be charged with capital murder, tried, convicted, and executed? Should the state pay out a one billion dollar settlement? More? A billion seems reasonable to me, BTW. Should the real shooter be tried? Or not, since he has the perfect defense that someone else was tried and executed for the crime? Of course, this is all speculative since Williams is dead now, but I would be interested in what people have to say. Or not. JazzMan

**** happens. Being the founding member of the Crips, he's probably killed plenty more than 4 people and not been charged, either directly or indirectly. I have no sympathy for him.