I'm glad we're the kind of country that doesn't believe in redemption, doesn't believe in mercy, doesn't believe in clemency. Yep, that's us to a tee, we should be proud.

Merciless, that has a nice ring to it.

Just like Saddam.

JazzMan

I don't want to post the pictures of the murders on here as they may be too disturbing, but here are the actual crime photo's . . .

WARNING--- PHOTOS ARE DISTURBING
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookiewilliamsvictims.html

quote Originally posted by maryjane: San Antonio Express-News Let's begin, for a change, with the victims. First came Albert Owens, a 26-year-old clerk at a 7-Eleven store in Whittier, Calif. The gunman fired two shotgun blasts into his back as he lay prone on the floor. In prison, the murderer found great hilarity in the sounds Owens, the father of two, made as life poured out of his body onto a convenience store floor. Then came Yen-I Yang, his wife, Tsai-Shai Yang, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who ran a motel in Los Angeles. The same gunman shot Yen-I in the chest and abdomen, Tsai-Shai in the back and in the side and Yee-Chen in the face. The assailant fired his shotgun at close range, producing horrific wounds. This is how the Los Angeles County district attorney's office describes the scene encountered by deputies: "As they entered, they saw Yen-I Yang lying on a sofa. He was 'soaked with blood,' 'gasping for air, and making gurgling noises.' They also saw the bloodied body of Tsai-Shai Yang. She was making 'gurgling noises' and 'gasping for air,' with 'her knees drawn up under her, and her face down on the floor,' as if she had been forced to bow down before being killed. Lastly, the deputies found the body of Yee-Chen Lin lying on the hallway floor." The combined take from two robberies and the brutal murder of four human beings: about $220. Using both the testimony of eyewitness accomplices and physical evidence, prosecutors obtained four capital murder convictions. After the guilty verdict was read, the murderer looked at the jury and said, "I'm going to get each and every one of you mother f------." The jury sentenced him to death row. He spent most of his first six years there in solitary confinement for assaulting fellow inmates and guards. The California Supreme Court, the U.S. Supreme Court and even the whimsical 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals have all rejected his appeals. In 1979 when he murdered Owens and the Yang family and in 1981 when he was convicted and sentenced to death, this violent criminal was known as Stanley Williams. Today he is known amiably as Tookie, the author of children's books that advocate nonviolence and warn of the perils of gang life. Tookie's long-awaited appointment with the executioner on Tuesday mobilized into action his considerable cadre of supporters — including the glitterati of Hollywood and members of academia who have repeatedly nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize — to demand clemency from Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. While Williams has apologized for his role in glorifying gang violence, he has never shown any remorse for the four murders nor even acknowledged his guilt. Remember Williams' victims. And then, only then, consider that we put too many people to death in the United States. The political necessity to appear tough on crime compels prosecutors to seek the death penalty in more cases than is warranted. Compounding this in some cases is the absence of the option for true life sentences, an option prosecutors did have in the Williams case. Prior to this year in Texas, for instance, a life sentence meant eligibility for parole in 40 years. And the reality is that against these forces, individuals who do not have access to the best legal defense money can buy sometimes improperly end up on death row. Research by Lise Olsen of the Houston Chronicle presents strong evidence that Texas put to death an innocent man in 1993 when it executed Ruben Cantu. The death penalty should be reserved for the most heinous crimes where guilt is corroborated by every form of evidence beyond a doubt. Do the crimes and conviction of an unremorseful Williams fit that standard? Who will tell the Yang and Owens families otherwise? "Remember what he did. It always comes down to people saying, 'Well you know, he's done all this stuff, and he's done all of that stuff,' but he's not in prison for writing books," Wayne Owens, Albert's brother, told the Kansas City Star. "That's something that happened because he's in prison."

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I'm glad we're the kind of country that doesn't believe in redemption, doesn't believe in mercy, doesn't believe in clemency. Yep, that's us to a tee, we should be proud. Merciless, that has a nice ring to it. Just like Saddam. JazzMan

I belive in clemency and mercy, just not in this case. Saddam and Williams are a great comparison. Peas in a pod. Merciless.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I belive in clemency and mercy, just not in this case. Saddam and Williams are a great comparison. Peas in a pod. Merciless.

I was comparing us as a nation to Saddam, not the guy on death row. From what I've see, though there are some doubts on the forensics that LA did (LA is known for the quality of their police work, right? LOL!) it is probable to me that he did commit the murders. The question hasn't been guilt or innocence, it has been about whether we as a society are capable of understanding and granting mercy and clemency to someone who, at least in part, has become a better person. The tone I see from many on this board is that we have no mercy, we shall not grant clemency, there is no redemption. Given that the current president never granted a stay of execution while governer of my state, never granted clemency no matter the circumstances, I'm not surprised at the names that don't believe in mercy on this forum.

How many here can directly associate themselves with a death penalty case? Raise your hand. My friend got murdered ten years ago and his murderer was on death row, his case just got commuted to life because of the Supreme court. All you folks that talk the talk without being there are just arm chair quarterbacks.

JazzMan

Everyone does the armchair quarterback bit, on any number of topics. Most have never owned or driven a real high performance race car, but it is accepted as ok to discuss it. Few have any real connection to the space program, but we all have an opinion on it and that is ok too. I see people here every week who speak about war, who couldn't be bagged up and thrown into a real firefight, but that's ok with me too. They're entitled to their opinons. For the most part, this discussion has been relevant to this particular case, not the death penalty and clemency in general. I truely don't believe this man has changed. He's been violent in prison, toward other prisoners and guards, and certainly has the capacity to be so again. Some of the most lenient courts in the land have looked hard at this case and it's still just as it was the day sentence was pronounced.
Our system works within the direction of the court.
Reasonable doubt. Not "100% beyond the shadow of a doubt."
It would be great if it could always be 100%, but that will never be in many many cases.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I'm glad we're the kind of country that doesn't believe in redemption, doesn't believe in mercy, doesn't believe in clemency. Yep, that's us to a tee, we should be proud. Merciless, that has a nice ring to it. Just like Saddam. JazzMan

I think he should be afforded every bit of the mercy he granted to his victims.
They certainly don't get a second chance.

F*ck clemency or how he changed or became better, he made a mistake if he is any better then he knows he should die and should die without wanting clemency granted. he murderd people he cant take that back he got sentenced to death, he needs to die. hang em high

death

I can.

As I answered in another thread when you asked the same question

quote originally posted by jstricker: To answer your question, Jazzman, yes I have known the families of a murder victim. I farmed ground for a lady that would be a second cousin to my father and we are very close to her. Her neice was murdered back in '96. The guy that did it was a convicted murderer out on parole and has been sentenced to die but that's on hold because of the legal dispute on KS death penalty constitutionality. This was definitely a case where had the death penalty been swift and sure for Mr. Gary Kleypas, Carrie would still be alive (he was on parole after serving 15 years of a 30 year sentence for killing a 78 year old man ). I didn't know Carrie well at all being a distant relative, only met her a time or two when she was visiting her aunt, but I used to know her mother reasonably well. If you want to read more about the case google up Gary Kleypas and Carrie Williams. FWIW, her mother is of the opinion that if she was 100% certain Kleypas would never get out again, EVER, that would be OK, but since he killed her daughter while he was on parole for another killing she really wonders if it wouldn't be SAFEST for everyone if he wasn't executed. As you can tell from that sentiment, she's not an ardent supporter of the death penalty, but really wonders if it doesn't have it's place. Here is one LINK. You have to scroll down a bit and look for KANSAS as the heading. This is the problem with the system. Had he not been paroled till he had served his full 30 years, Carrie would still be alive. Had he been executed for the first killing, Carrie would still be alive. Had he not experienced the fact that he could serve half his time and be out of prison, perhaps making him think he would get off lightly on other crimes, would she still be alive? We don't know how that entered into it.

More recently, a friend that Chris went to school with all through grade school and high school was murdered just a couple of weeks ago.

Of course, since you are SO morally superior to me (or any other conservative) you couldn't bring yourself to comment on either. Get off your high horse, you aren't the only one with an opinion that counts. I'm not a strong death penalty advocate to begin with but when it comes to redemption for people who do crimes such as these, I'll let God take care of that part when they have to meet Him. IMO, people that rape, murder, and do heinous acts such as those done by Stanley Williams aren't entitled to redemption by society, they forfeited that when the strangled, shot or knifed in cold blood their victims.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: How many here can directly associate themselves with a death penalty case? Raise your hand. My friend got murdered ten years ago and his murderer was on death row, his case just got commuted to life because of the Supreme court. All you folks that talk the talk without being there are just arm chair quarterbacks. JazzMan

I posted here in OT about my uncle being shot down in cold blood as he sat in his pickup in early 2004. The case is just now going to court in Arkansas, which is a death penalty state.

Edit, it's Lousiana, not Arknsas.

We still know little about the reasoning or motive other than a man walked toward the parked truck and put 2 "deer rifle" slugs thru the driver's door into my uncle.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-13-2005).]

Clemency - just against the death penalty in general. Jesus would choose clemency in this case, too.

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Scott Peterson was a good boy and he just made a simple mistake like killing his wife and unborn child. So lets forgive him and let him go free so he can do it again. Bullshit anybody that believes this type of justice is ignorant.
Don

quote Originally posted by Kelvin Vivian: Clemency - just against the death penalty in general. Jesus would choose clemency in this case, too.

Williams will get to plead his case with and be judged by the true supreme court in the hereafter.
If found to be repentant and rehabilitated, he spends all of eternity in bliss.

one hour

quote Originally posted by ka4nkf: Scott Peterson was a good boy and he just made a simple mistake like killing his wife and unborn child. So lets forgive him and let him go free so he can do it again. Bullshit anybody that believes this type of justice is ignorant. Don

But Sammy the Bull gets 5 years for 19 murders because he could rat on Don Gotti... now he's up on murder charges again (or at least that was the word in 2003). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Gravano

No redemption, no nothing but put back on the street because he could fry a bigger fish.

The problem is allowing deals for snitches.

I have to wonder if Williams is really innocent and testimony that was bought with deals to stop investigating other murders for potential suspects and a jailhouse snitch not getting the death penalty himself are part of why he's got less than an hour to live.

Strange enough, I feel if he was not in jail for these murders he would probably have died violently years ago out on the streets. He changed and it wasn't right off the bat. As for those pinning the responsibility for the Crips on him.. that's what he's been trying to fix for the last decade or more. Even one of the originators of the Bloods doesn't want to see him dead. Gangs were a reality long before the Crips came along, and there wasn't much alternative for those involved at the time. That's the cycle he's been trying to break. I think the claim he's running the Crips from jail is a load of crap personally. He has the respect of the gangs, even the ones that used to be trying to take his life. Kind of like a white priest that used to walk those neighborhoods at night talking with the gangs. They respected him and let him come and go... he wasn't pro gang, but he was civil. Tookie finally figured out how to be civil while in jail, I can't imagine that he'd be talking smack about anyone once he decided to try and turn it ALL around. Not just his personal life, but the lives of those in jail with him along with the lives of people outside in the real world.

I also think the Governors reasoning given for not giving clemency was BS. Sure read a lot into a book's dedication... I wonder who did that research for him. I seriously doubt he's read anything by Williams.

I'd much rather see the guy continue to spend his life behind bars than killing him. Save the death penalty for those like Sammy the Bull, Ted Bundy, etc... Save it for those you can truly tie to a murder with direct physical evidence like DNA, video, gunshot residue etc... not that he owned a gun similar to the one used and that it was in someone elses pocession and that someone claims he was boasting about it that may have been involved in it. Not that we took someone else off death row for implicating him. Are people that stupid that when jailed on first degree murder charges they immediately confess to the guy in a cell next to them... hmm Crip confessing to a white supremist... who just happens to have his case file... do you buy that? Also confessed to the people who were being investigated for another murder, who had the shotgun under their bed... umm... no one see another senario here? I've got some reasonable doubt, maybe not enough to let him out, but more than enough to not wack him.

I will officialy be glad my name is not "tookie" in about 2 mintues

Well, he's dead... I hope they got the right guy and it brings some closure to the victims families.

How many violent gang members like Williams actually "own" guns anyway? They may 'have' guns and 'access' to guns but I doubt many actually legally go down and purchase one that could be traced back to them. Reasonable doubt, by a jury, appealled and looked at by Lord knows how many different appeals courts all the way up to the Supreme Court of the US. None saw any or enough evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the court where he was initially tried & sentenced or lack of evidence from the prosecution, or enough evidence of hanky panky by the prosecution to even reccomend a hearing on it. By his own admission, he spent the last 2 decades doing what he came to ENJOY. Reading and writing. People wanted his death sentence commuted to life imprisonment, so the guy could spend the rest of his life ENJOYING himself. I'm reminded of a line from Helter Skelter. "If you give a man the whip, and he enjoys the whip---What have you really done?"

Now, if they said commute his sentence and make him swing a 8 lb sledge hammer under a 12 gage armed gunline, 10 hrs/day for the rest of his life, then I'd be all for it.

For all the pain he caused the world with his gang backed drug dealing, it's only just that he died by the needle.

holycrap ! breaking news ! turns out they got the wrong tookie! he was innocent!
the real killer was Tookie the wookie from planet Kasyyk!

Apparently the affidavite I posted a link to (up a few posts) was a witness that only came forward on the 10th of this month.

The only thing that made him special was the fact that he was having an impact from behind prison walls. I was watching FOX coverage since it was only live coverage at the end. Severely slanted, comparing him to Hilter over the Nobel Peace Prize nomination. Their coverage was obviously for killing him and using everything they could to justify it. It was the things like declarations that he had said things rather than reporting that someone had testified he'd said something I found a bit bothersome about coverage. No mention of the latest problems with the case or the problem with informants that are profitting from testimony.

The informant issue is my biggest problem with the whole case. People with motive to lie under oath to get out of their own troubles. I think if I ever get arrested I'll have to request a gag so I can refute anyone that says I confessed something to them...

I am pro and anti death penalty. Anti because it simply doesn't work as a deterrent ( psychology 101-- when you get to that state in which you are willing to kill, consequences don't matter) and pro because where are we going to put all these people? On the surface that is a weak argument because there are only a few dozen people awaiting execution. But lets look at all the murder convictions in states that don't have the death penalty and all the murdrers appealing their cases. Numbers in the thousands. Perhaps to avoid prison overcrowding we should instead release all the rapists and child molesters to make room for all the murderers we don't execute.

quote Originally posted by JenzGT2: My husband is a guard, and yes, he believes he is still running things from death row. If he really left the gang the other gang members would have put a hit out on him. Instead the inmates are threatening and assaulting the guards over Tookie's impending death. He is locked up and still causing trouble all over the state. This should have happened a long time ago, he is just manipulating the system. I bet you won't hear on the news how many Correctional Officers are assaulted over this. There are a lot of Crypts on the yard my husband works on and I can't wait to get the call that he left work OK. Jen

Well Jen now that it is one, lets hope the gaurds get some peace. They don't deservie it.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Remember that no one goes looking to prove people that have been executed as innocent. You can look at the facts that got ignored, covered up, were fabricated and say they were probably innocent of the crime they were executed for, but no court will 'prove' it.

You got that right. Even given a chance, they won't do it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32616-2004Dec28.html
http://www.insideout.org/documentaries/dna/thestories2.asp
http://www.truthinjustice.org/DNA-DP.htm

Good Luck!

quote Originally posted by Kelvin Vivian: Clemency - just against the death penalty in general. Jesus would choose clemency in this case, too.

Jesus wasn't always right. People forget that. The "What would Jesus do"? question is rhetorical. If we all did what Jesus did we'd all be wandering the planet with no possessions, no job (or purpose), and watching our kids starve. Jesus is a, "do as I say, not as I do" life lesson.

As for the Death Penalty, I've said this before but it's worht repeating. When I have to listen to disingenuous people like Mike Farrell and Jesse Jackson talk about the "barbaric" nature of the Death Penalty I feel a great sense of despair about the collective arrogance of our species. The fact remains that these people think they are God and know better than the rest of us. What's even MORE annoying is to here them use that argument in a psychological game of projectionism on those of us who know that the death penalty is a must. I know it doesn't sound like it all that often but the reality is that I am a humble man. I accept my insignificance in the Grans scheme of the Universe and I'm OK with that. I'm just glad to have the chance to even be here. I could have been easily replaced by one of a billion other sperm cells. I'm pretty lucky. Since I do NOT think I am God I acknowledge that I have no power to cure these monsters like Williams. If I were God I would wave my hand and resurrect the lives of those Williams brutally murdered, I'd heal his warped mind so that he was a productive member of society instead of a threat to it, and I'd basically do exactly what the liberal left thinks is right and negate the NEED for the death penalty by negating the CAUSE of it. But I'm NOT God! I don't have those powers. All I have is the power of the vote. And I vote to remove from our society permenantly those individuals who are incurable. Williams, despite his books, has never once admitted his crime, apologized for it, written a book about the err of his ways, he's comitted crimes while in prison, and basically proved beyond a shodow of a doubt that he is the same bully he always was. The best way for me to protect society is to remove the cancer from it. Life imprisonment is a joke. It is a myth. People do not spend LIFE in prison. The very term "Life Imprisonment" is offensive. It is a political term and not one of reality. A dead man can never kill again. People sentenced to "life imprisonment" are responsible for tens of thousands of murders....after they were sentenced. Escapees, parolees, work detail releasees, etc. are all responsible for the deaths of people who THOUGHT they were protected form these animals. No one LIKES the Death Penalty but the fact remains that as a society, until we grow enough to ensure the safety from harm for all citizens (thousands or millions of years of evolution from now) we will have to muddle through the best way we mere mortals can.

I feel safer now that Williams is dead.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Jesus wasn't always right. People forget that. The "What would Jesus do"? question is rhetorical. If we all did what Jesus did we'd all be wandering the planet with no possessions, no job (or purpose), and watching our kids starve. Jesus is a, "do as I say, not as I do" life lesson..

So Jesus had no purpose?

Anyway, if you are sentenced to life without parole you are not going to be on work release. Also their mail/phone calls are screened so they don't set up any illegal activity.

As screwed up as this justice system/gov't is I always have to laugh when people support them killing people.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 12-13-2005).]

Good, hes gone . My only problem now is that they execute by lethal injection...WTF...? They never give their victims that option. Just making them go to sleep is part of the reason its no deterent. I personally rather see them go back to hanging or electrocution. Firing squad would be ok too....just so they make sure to hit a lot of non vital body parts first so hes got a while to think about it while hes cringing in pain.

Being a law and order advocate, it's not hard for me to say that the sentence should be carried out. But also trying to be opened minded, I'm willing to considered (though it's too late for Tookie) that convicted felons, specifically murderers may redeem themselves while waitng on death row. Therefore, may I suggest that we relocate all of these redeemed murderers to the communities where they are apparently welcomed. All residents maybe not be wholly in favor of this, but I'm sure those folks so against the death penalty will easily convince your neighbors.
Though not likely to happen, I can already imagine the National Guard or FBI surrounding some community.

Upon reflection, on second thought, we should not discriminate on this issue, child molestors and rapist should also be allowed into these redeemed communitites.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-13-2005).]

I'll take that challenge. My stepfather's daughter (I can't honestly call her a sister since I never really got to know her) was murdered by her ex husband because she was getting child support and he didn't like it. he murdered her and threw her down some type of well where she stayed for weeks until the police finally broke him and he confessed. Now he's in jail for life. I think he should die. We all have our opinions. You're right, I have no mercy for convicted killers. Same with rapists, they should die too. I'm not Republican and I'm sick of the insinuations you keep making about how people who support the death penalty or the war are either Republicans or Inbred hicks. That Democratic party line you're towing is getting old.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I was comparing us as a nation to Saddam, not the guy on death row. From what I've see, though there are some doubts on the forensics that LA did (LA is known for the quality of their police work, right? LOL!) it is probable to me that he did commit the murders. The question hasn't been guilt or innocence, it has been about whether we as a society are capable of understanding and granting mercy and clemency to someone who, at least in part, has become a better person. The tone I see from many on this board is that we have no mercy, we shall not grant clemency, there is no redemption. Given that the current president never granted a stay of execution while governer of my state, never granted clemency no matter the circumstances, I'm not surprised at the names that don't believe in mercy on this forum. How many here can directly associate themselves with a death penalty case? Raise your hand. My friend got murdered ten years ago and his murderer was on death row, his case just got commuted to life because of the Supreme court. All you folks that talk the talk without being there are just arm chair quarterbacks. JazzMan

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: As screwed up as this justice system/gov't is I always have to laugh when people support them killing people.

...even more funny is they'll say anyone who advocates against it is arrogant and "thinks they are God."

I disagree that someone should be judged whether or not they should get clemency based on that they never admited guilt, appologized, or showed remorse. Say you were wrongfully convicted sitting on death row and you did not commit the crime, you pled not guilty through everything. Why should you admit to the crime and appologize for something you did not do?

You all who want to give them life do know that us as taxpayers pay more annually to keep them that a lot you make a year right? There never going to be productive except maybe to make licence plates so why do we need to support them. What happens in 20 years when the prisons get more crowded and they let even ' lifers' get out............? Here in Ohio, 9 years is considered a life term under certain conditions.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: You all who want to give them life do know that us as taxpayers pay more annually to keep them that a lot you make a year right? There never going to be productive except maybe to make licence plates so why do we need to support them. What happens in 20 years when the prisons get more crowded and they let even ' lifers' get out............? Here in Ohio, 9 years is considered a life term under certain conditions.

Because the appeals process of a death penalty conviction is totally free to the taxpayer. Please educate yourself.

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: Because the appeals process of a death penalty conviction is totally free to the taxpayer. Please educate yourself.

Not neccessarily true. All court costs, including the wages of the court are paid by the taxpayer. The wages of attorneys may not be paid, but the judge, baliffs etc are.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Jesus wasn't always right. People forget that. The "What would Jesus do"? question is rhetorical. If we all did what Jesus did we'd all be wandering the planet with no possessions, no job (or purpose), and watching our kids starve. Jesus is a, "do as I say, not as I do" life lesson. I feel safer now that Williams is dead.

All I say is render unto Caesar what is Caeser's and unto God what is God's. Under our laws, he was guilty, and the punishment - his life. However, don't be surprised if you see Tookie standing next to God - for God forgives. He forgave Paul who murdered many a Christians. People will eventually learn how deep God's love is - if not now, later when they see gays, murderers, and others who are despised in our society standing next to God.

In the end, families of murder victims say that it's best to forgive, because to hold on to hate and anger only destroys us physically, mentally and spiritually. This life is not all there is.

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88 GT T-Top 5-spd #338 of 1252
87 SE 4-cyl 5-spd sunroof, spoiler, performance sound
85 2M4 base coupe T-Top 5-spd, rackless decklid, 15-in 88 GT rims, aero-conversion

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Not neccessarily true. All court costs, including the wages of the court are paid by the taxpayer. The wages of attorneys may not be paid, but the judge, baliffs etc are.

You missed his sarcasm... it costs millions to get someone to the death chamber. Last number I heard here was $54K a year per prisoner to jail them.. your mileage may vary. Kick loose a couple of the potheads and that's pretty easy to deal with.

The whole death sentencing senario is scarily biased and politicized.

Problem 1... if someone is brought to trial, then by regulations no one can sit on the jury that is against the death penalty. Look at the responses here and tell me that isn't a slanted jury. Your much more likely to be found guilty in a death penalty case than in a case with a lower sentence potential. So biased juries are a given.

Problem 2... way way way to much politics involved. Prosecutors careers are made on big cases like this. Everyone on the prosecution sides future is based on convicting someone to show closure, right or wrong. Also to show they aren't soft on crime. Comments I heard on Arnold's refusal to grant clemency was that it's a good opening move for him re-election campaign. This was on FoxNews.

Problem 3... allowing people to testify for reductions in sentences and other favors. Two murders outside of the ones Williams was executed for had people's sentences reduced or dropped for testifying. Prosectutors hid the fact that they were using compensated informants as witnesses. This happens all the time, a case in Mobile Alabama were practically every reputable black man was jailed on conspiracy to distribute drugs. That case left most of the towns black business people in jail with 20 year sentences based on the testimony of 5 known drug dealers that backed their stories up as a group around a table as part of a deal to get themselves out of jail. This isn't rare, it's a daily occurence... people shouldn't be getting put to death on the testimony of jailhouse snitches and other suspects in cases.

Problem 3... Poor representation for the defense. Everything the state has is thrown at finding a person guilty in a capital offense case, if your stuck with a public defender... your screwed. It's been found OK that a lawyer sleeping through a trial involving a death sentence that never made any motions at all was an adequate defense... hey can't expect your court appointed lawyer to stay awake and actually defend you... that would be unreasonable.

Problem 4... Appeals process, people destroying evidence or refusing to allow new tests etc because of procedures. I find in ridiculous that people want the appeals process eliminated/shortened when there are so many people proven innocent on death row. The claim that the processes take to long and cost to much need to be put up agains the fact that we are taking someones life as a community. Damned well better be sure you've got the right person, I don't care how much or how long that takes. The mob mentality of a speedy trial then string em up only because we can't just string em up first is a bit sickening. I posted links here and you all can find plenty of others about hundreds of people that have been released from prison or had sentences commuted because of evidence that was found later, technology that evolved that allowed evidence to be retested, or that someone else admitted to the crime years later. Others have been put to death that were not guilty or most likely not guilty. Getting rid of the appeals process because it doesn't allow quick closure for the victim (screw it if we've got the wrong person) is wrong. One thing for a person to commit murder, it's another for our government to do the same.

I've got more issues... but that's enough ranting for now.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: The question hasn't been guilt or innocence, it has been about whether we as a society are capable of understanding and granting mercy and clemency to someone who, at least in part, has become a better person.

What do the rest of us get as precious as the gift of life, because we have become better persons ? It was not one strike and your out. Based upon his past, he was determined to be a threat to society. There is a society in prison. His prison record upheld the determination.
How do you figure he became a better person ? Most people who go to prison come out worse.
He learned and manipulated the streets. He did the same in prison. The streets and prison were his life and he was manipulating for more life. Prison is much like life. You still have the in crowd, some have more status than others, some have more riches than others. As anyone can serve during a war, or live during a depression, thru a hurricane, or many other life events. One can not live thru a murder.
Jazzman, your stated ideal sounds like anyone should be able to get out of trouble by jumping thru hoops. Tha was what probation and parole is for and he had those hoops. He jumped thru them. He did what he had to do instead of doing what he should have done to begin with. Time and time again. It taught him he could avoid consequences. And taught him well, he was trying it again.