Of course, since you are SO morally superior to me (or any other conservative) you couldn't bring yourself to comment on either. Get off your high horse, you aren't the only one with an opinion that counts
Again with the sleights, the mischaracterizations, the lies.
You sure seem stuck on sticking me with the little jabs every chance you get.
I never claimed to be morally superior to you or any other neocon. I just happen to think that you and your ilk f*cked up bigtime with the Iraq war and the total mishandling of the economy, but that's not superiority speaking, that's just me looking at the steaming pile o'crap that you're leaving behind you everywhere you go. And I'm not alone in feeling that way, millions feel the same as I do.
And why would I comment on the murders you've experienced? I thought my point was that most people haven't got direct experience, you're seeing to imply that everyone does have direct experience, that's just wrong.
You are the master twister, that's for sure, you should run for president.
JazzMan
IP: Logged
11:15 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Again with the sleights, the mischaracterizations, the lies.
Show me one post where I have lied. You can't do it.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: You sure seem stuck on sticking me with the little jabs every chance you get.
Not at all. As easy as you make it, it would be a full time job for me and quite frankly, I'm just not that interested in you.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: I never claimed to be morally superior to you or any other neocon.
No, your posts just portray that message with comments like "All you folks that talk the talk without being there are just arm chair quarterbacks." and "I'm not surprised at the names that don't believe in mercy on this forum"
Nope, no tone of moral superiority there, is there?
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
I just happen to think that you and your ilk f*cked up bigtime with the Iraq war and the total mishandling of the economy, but that's not superiority speaking, that's just me looking at the steaming pile o'crap that you're leaving behind you everywhere you go. And I'm not alone in feeling that way, millions feel the same as I do.
Again, no moral superiority displayed in that little comment (not to mention having NOTHING to do with the topic at hand).
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: And why would I comment on the murders you've experienced? I thought my point was that most people haven't got direct experience, you're seeing to imply that everyone does have direct experience, that's just wrong.
Uhhh..........Because YOU asked the question??? Or was it just rhetorical unless one of your left wing friends was to answer? It's always easier to have a discussion with those that parrot your views, you don't have to think nearly as much.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: You are the master twister, that's for sure, you should run for president.
I think it's only fair that upon proof that an innocent person has been executed, all of the rabid death penalty supporters here on PFF should commit suicide.
BTW, I support the death penalty, but not like some here have. I think the standards of proof should be much higher than they are. Look at Randal Dale Adams, Lenel Jeter, Joyce Ann Brown, all three were put on death row by prosecutors that abused the office of law, and all three were released because third parties worked tirelessly to prove their innocence. For every Adams I have to assume that an innocent person has been murdered by the state, you and me, and the true criminal went on to commit more heinous crimes.
Some will say that it's a neccessary tragedy that an innocent person was executed, I say to them: howabout we make you the next "unneccesary tragedy"?
Soft on crime I see. An 8 lb sledge hammer is just a shop hammer , a ten is my favorite no strain hammer. Now that twenty pounder, that is work. And my arms are not near as big as his.
Try that shop hammer all day long, making pebbles from boulders. It'll take the starch out of em and they can write their books at night or on Sunday.
I think it's only fair that upon proof that an innocent person has been executed, all of the rabid death penalty supporters here on PFF should commit suicide.
BTW, I support the death penalty, but not like some here have. I think the standards of proof should be much higher than they are. Look at Randal Dale Adams, Lenel Jeter, Joyce Ann Brown, all three were put on death row by prosecutors that abused the office of law, and all three were released because third parties worked tirelessly to prove their innocence. For every Adams I have to assume that an innocent person has been murdered by the state, you and me, and the true criminal went on to commit more heinous crimes.
Some will say that it's a neccessary tragedy that an innocent person was executed, I say to them: howabout we make you the next "unneccesary tragedy"?
JazzMan
Most of us don't believe in suicide--or murder. Both are mortal sins. Guess you'll have to pull the switch on us yourself--or energize the plunger.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-13-2005).]
Jazzman, your stated ideal sounds like anyone should be able to get out of trouble by jumping thru hoops.
No it wasn't, please don't tell people I said something that I didn't say. I never said he or anyone should get out of trouble by jumping through hoops, and you know that cliffw. You know it well.
The only issue I saw was that he was doing some good WRT the gang problem, now that he's dead he can't do anything at all. Clemency, if it was warranted, would not let him out of prison, it would just converted his death sentence to life without parole. That's not "getting out of trouble" cliffw, you can see and agree with that.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw: Tha was what probation and parole is for and he had those hoops. He jumped thru them. He did what he had to do instead of doing what he should have done to begin with. Time and time again. It taught him he could avoid consequences. And taught him well, he was trying it again.
Now you're just making stuff up. Parole and probation were never available to him under a death sentence. I can't even figure out what you're trying to say here.
JazzMan
IP: Logged
11:33 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by Toddster: Jesus wasn't always right. People forget that. The "What would Jesus do"? question is rhetorical. If we all did what Jesus did we'd all be wandering the planet with no possessions, no job (or purpose), and watching our kids starve. Jesus is a, "do as I say, not as I do" life lesson.
I think it's only fair that upon proof that an innocent person has been executed, all of the rabid death penalty supporters here on PFF should commit suicide. JazzMan
Rabid death penalty suppoerters? Dude why is everything so one way with you?
IP: Logged
12:59 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
What if every good thing he has done is a ploy to get Clemency. Once obtained he goes back to the gangsta life style. Can we sentence him back to death?
What if... he would have still been in prison the rest of his life with no possibility of parole unless the courts found in the future that he was not guilty. He couldn't go back to the gangsta life unless your talking about in jail gangs... and why would he. Sounds like he pretty much got the respect of everyone he was imprisoned with no matter which gang they were with if any. Including a lot of the guards. What possible motive would he have for turning back to that life when he's explained in writing what was so wrong with it? Most turn to gangs for the protection, respect and 'family'... he had all that without being a banger for the last decade or so. The idea that someone turns around that was a violent bastard as a ploy and manages to pull it off perfectly for 15 years without a miss as damn near a saint when he wasn't a conman to begin with seems like a pretty far stretch of the imagination. He was a big powerful violent uneducated sob... who became an educated, peaceful, civilized person who had done some aweful things in his past. The way he went to his death pretty much showed he had changed although it was in the same vein as drowning a suspected witch... if they drown they weren't a witch. He didn't go out fighting, didn't curse anyone out, struggle, spit or anything. Sad thing was that some idiot that was a witness said he was 'defiant' right to the end because he looked their way. All the other media witnesses said he looked to his witnesses, looked once to the media, chatted with the guards and only looked annoyed after 15 minutes of the nurse trying to find a vein in his left arm with the needle and apparently gave some advise on finding it or something. Went peacefully... only comments at the end were by three of his witnesses who said "The State of California has executed an innocent man"
No comment at the end like "dang ya got me", No riots... no gang violence... no reprisals. Did I miss something?
Now you're just making stuff up. Parole and probation were never available to him under a death sentence. I can't even figure out what you're trying to say here.
JazzMan
He's saying the same thing so many others have said here. The hoops Wiiliams was jumping thru were self serving, to enable him to escape the death penalty and continue doing what he had come to enjoy. Reading, writing and appearing to put on a good front for the public and especially to those who might be able to keep him breathing Albert Owens' and the Yang family's air. Death--that's the trouble he was trying to get out of, by trying to convince people he was just a misunderstood guy. Hoops. Just as it is at any prison, there's a game to play, hoops to jump thru to get a good grade from the parole board. His handpicked witnesses all said an innocent man was executed. Guess he picked them for a reason. The jury, the appeals system, the California and US Supreme court all said differently.
Wonder what the family of the victims said? Well, I guess we don't need to think too much about the victims--they're ancient history. Laid to rest and long rotted to dust by now, what wasn't blown away or bled out onto the floor where they were left gasping and gurgling. They don't matter. I wonder if they begged Williams for their lives--before he pulled the trigger? Did he laugh in their faces, as he called them buddah heads, as reported by someone whom he related the killings to? Let's not think about that. After all, they didn't write about their lives. They didn't get a chance to.
What job? I thought you were a full time farmer? LOL!
JazzMan
I read these threads and whenever your name pops up it's always offensive/defensive. Never an outlook, never an opinion. In your mind what you say goes or the other person is always wrong. Why?
There is one aspect to this that seems to have been missed. If Williams had been reprieved from the death sentence, how many defence lawyers would have used his example to avoid the death sentence being passed in the future? I can just hear it now.... "Well your Honour, my client has commited several bloodthirsty, heartless and cruel murders, but if he is allowed clemency, he will become a good, well-behaved model prisoner, writing wonderful books, condemning his previous life-style, extolling the virtues of leading a full and productive life in prison.After all, Tookie Williams did it, so why shouldn't my client be extended the same opportunity?" And as it would have been a precedent already set, the arguments would then have come down to pure conjecture.I wonder why I have never even remotely come close to being charged with murders that have been commited near me? Could it be, I don't live a lifestyle even remotely close to those who are? Nick
------------------ fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!! Responsibility: the solution for our World's Dilemmas.. Yahoo messenger:nickcannspain MSN Messenger-nicholascann@hotmail.com
I read these threads and whenever your name pops up it's always offensive/defensive. Never an outlook, never an opinion. In your mind what you say goes or the other person is always wrong. Why?
Ahh-a lot of people have been wondering that lately.
IP: Logged
07:01 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
OK, the state pays to house the prisoners, Ill give you that. Now who pays the taxes that build the prison, pay for its utilities, food, employees including guards, the court house, judges, ' free ' lawyer...etc...etc ? You need to educate yourself. Last I remember hearing in Ohio, cost was around $30K per year per prisoner.
From what Ive seen on tv including lots of Court TV coverage, he was far less than a model prisoner. He beat up inmates, guards, and anyone else when he was given the chance from day one. He was so bad at one point he was put in solitary confinement for 6 years.....again educate yourself.
IP: Logged
07:31 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
OK, the state pays to house the prisoners, Ill give you that. Now who pays the taxes that build the prison, pay for its utilities, food, employees including guards, the court house, judges, ' free ' lawyer...etc...etc ? You need to educate yourself. Last I remember hearing in Ohio, cost was around $30K per year per prisoner.
This was the 12th execution in California since the 70's, the 2nd this year. Compare that to California's total of about 160,000 inmates.
What difference does cost make when the CIA is using secret prisons throughout the world to hold people without any legal standards. Really.
IP: Logged
11:02 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
There is one aspect to this that seems to have been missed. If Williams had been reprieved from the death sentence, how many defence lawyers would have used his example to avoid the death sentence being passed in the future? I can just hear it now.... "Well your Honour, my client has commited several bloodthirsty, heartless and cruel murders, but if he is allowed clemency, he will become a good, well-behaved model prisoner, writing wonderful books, condemning his previous life-style, extolling the virtues of leading a full and productive life in prison.After all, Tookie Williams did it, so why shouldn't my client be extended the same opportunity?" And as it would have been a precedent already set, the arguments would then have come down to pure conjecture.I wonder why I have never even remotely come close to being charged with murders that have been commited near me? Could it be, I don't live a lifestyle even remotely close to those who are? Nick
That first part makes no sense... it's not the promise that you'll change, it's showing you have changed. The last part makes sense... choose your friends/associates carefully.
IP: Logged
12:58 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
The whole death sentencing senario is scarily biased and politicized.
Problem 1... if someone is brought to trial, then by regulations no one can sit on the jury that is against the death penalty. Look at the responses here and tell me that isn't a slanted jury. Your much more likely to be found guilty in a death penalty case than in a case with a lower sentence potential. So biased juries are a given.
Problem 2... way way way to much politics involved. Prosecutors careers are made on big cases like this. Everyone on the prosecution sides future is based on convicting someone to show closure, right or wrong. Also to show they aren't soft on crime. Comments I heard on Arnold's refusal to grant clemency was that it's a good opening move for him re-election campaign. This was on FoxNews.
Problem 3... allowing people to testify for reductions in sentences and other favors. Two murders outside of the ones Williams was executed for had people's sentences reduced or dropped for testifying. Prosectutors hid the fact that they were using compensated informants as witnesses. This happens all the time, a case in Mobile Alabama were practically every reputable black man was jailed on conspiracy to distribute drugs. That case left most of the towns black business people in jail with 20 year sentences based on the testimony of 5 known drug dealers that backed their stories up as a group around a table as part of a deal to get themselves out of jail. This isn't rare, it's a daily occurence... people shouldn't be getting put to death on the testimony of jailhouse snitches and other suspects in cases.
Problem 3... Poor representation for the defense. Everything the state has is thrown at finding a person guilty in a capital offense case, if your stuck with a public defender... your screwed. It's been found OK that a lawyer sleeping through a trial involving a death sentence that never made any motions at all was an adequate defense... hey can't expect your court appointed lawyer to stay awake and actually defend you... that would be unreasonable.
Problem 4... Appeals process, people destroying evidence or refusing to allow new tests etc because of procedures. I find in ridiculous that people want the appeals process eliminated/shortened when there are so many people proven innocent on death row. The claim that the processes take to long and cost to much need to be put up agains the fact that we are taking someones life as a community. Damned well better be sure you've got the right person, I don't care how much or how long that takes. The mob mentality of a speedy trial then string em up only because we can't just string em up first is a bit sickening. I posted links here and you all can find plenty of others about hundreds of people that have been released from prison or had sentences commuted because of evidence that was found later, technology that evolved that allowed evidence to be retested, or that someone else admitted to the crime years later. Others have been put to death that were not guilty or most likely not guilty. Getting rid of the appeals process because it doesn't allow quick closure for the victim (screw it if we've got the wrong person) is wrong. One thing for a person to commit murder, it's another for our government to do the same.
I've got more issues... but that's enough ranting for now.
That's so, so true. The bottom line? Don't get caught-up with gangs, bad company and alike. Make sure you have "bank" just in-case someone tries to put a murder wrap on you whether you're innocent or not. You'll need it to hire a good attorney. And by all means----get an education!
IP: Logged
01:21 PM
LAMBO Member
Posts: 1677 From: Lucas, Iowa, USA Registered: May 2000
Scott!Your comment doesn't make sense, if you don't mind me pointing out why...You say "it is not the promise that you'll change, it's showing you have changed." If he has already been executed, he can't show he has changed!! Nick
IP: Logged
01:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by jstricker: Show me one post where I have lied. You can't do it.
ooh! ooh! mr. kottah! mr. kottah! i can think of a couple of instances. for example: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/035710.html now, a lawyer might argue that subtle distortion, evasion and misdirection with the intent to mislead is not technically a lie. bill clinton might have agreed. but the clue here is intent. if you intend to mislead, it's a lie.
IP: Logged
02:48 PM
larryemory Member
Posts: 838 From: Greensboro, NC USA Registered: Jan 2003
Look at Randal Dale Adams, Lenel Jeter, Joyce Ann Brown, all three were put on death row by prosecutors that abused the office of law, and all three were released...... JazzMan
Huh? They were put to death and released? Where are you getting our information? Fact is there is no PROVEN case where an innocent person has been executed. A very few have been proven innocent while on death row. That in itself ia a tragedy because it took years in most cases. If perfection is the standard no human activity would ever be attempted.
IP: Logged
03:13 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Most of us don't believe in suicide--or murder. Both are mortal sins. Guess you'll have to pull the switch on us yourself--or energize the plunger.
If they'e mortal sins, isn't god going to punish him enough? There is no logic to what you are saying.. You want him fried, or you want him to be punished somehow, so god can punish him.... And why isn't the death penalty a mortal sin.. Don't be pro capital punishment if you aren't willing to do it yourself (and sin).
IP: Logged
03:36 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
You're going to have to be more specific. That's a 4 page thread and I have several posts in there and neither the time, nor inclination, to read the whole thing to figure out just what the hell it is you're talking about.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by lurker:
ooh! ooh! mr. kottah! mr. kottah! i can think of a couple of instances. for example: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/035710.html now, a lawyer might argue that subtle distortion, evasion and misdirection with the intent to mislead is not technically a lie. bill clinton might have agreed. but the clue here is intent. if you intend to mislead, it's a lie.
IP: Logged
04:22 PM
larryemory Member
Posts: 838 From: Greensboro, NC USA Registered: Jan 2003
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Remember that no one goes looking to prove people that have been executed as innocent. You can look at the facts that got ignored, covered up, were fabricated and say they were probably innocent of the crime they were executed for, but no court will 'prove' it.
That is absolutely not true. Files have been searched by the thousands (innocence project and others) and a very few people on death row have been found innocent. The number is minescule compared to the population of death row. There is not one proven case of an innocent person being executed.
IP: Logged
04:48 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 32848 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by blackrams: Being a law and order advocate, it's not hard for me to say that the sentence should be carried out. But also trying to be opened minded, I'm willing to considered (though it's too late for Tookie) that convicted felons, specifically murderers may redeem themselves while waitng on death row. Therefore, may I suggest that we relocate all of these redeemed murderers to the communities where they are apparently welcomed. All residents maybe not be wholly in favor of this, but I'm sure those folks so against the death penalty will easily convince your neighbors. Though not likely to happen, I can already imagine the National Guard or FBI surrounding some community. Upon reflection, on second thought, we should not discriminate on this issue, child molestors and rapist should also be allowed into these redeemed communitites.
OK, apparently my idea to house all these criminals in lifer communities isn't going to go over, how about another suggestion, give every voter the oportunity to vote their feelings on the death penality, once the votes are tabulated, those not in favor of the death penality pay an additional payroll tax to support these murders so they can redeem thenselves. There, now everyone is happy, well, almost everyone, I guess the victims and their families will have to accept it, but I'm sure those not in favor of the death penality can find a way to satisfy them.
------------------ Ron Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-14-2005).]
IP: Logged
05:59 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
That is absolutely not true. Files have been searched by the thousands (innocence project and others) and a very few people on death row have been found innocent. The number is minescule compared to the population of death row. There is not one proven case of an innocent person being executed.
I already stated the problem with this arguement. There are plenty of cases out there where most people knowledgable on the cases agree the person executed was most probably innocent, but they are dead and no one retries cases where the defendant has been executed.
Here is a sample where an appeal based on new evidence and a confession was denied and the person originally convicted executed. Link here ... http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Huma/HumaLine.htm and a good sized quote follows:
" Leonel Herrera, convicted of murder in Texas, claimed that new evidence available eight years after his conviction showed that he was innocent of the murder and that his brother had committed (and confessed to) it. His appeal to the United States Supreme Court was denied in a 6-3 decision and he was executed. The essential rationale for the denial was stated by Chief Justice Rehnquist, writing for the majority:
Claims of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence have never been held to state a ground for federal habeas relief absent an independent constitutional violation occurring in the underlying state criminal proceeding....This rule is grounded in the principle that federal habeas courts sit to ensure that individuals are not imprisoned in violation of the Constitution—not to correct errors of fact. [Herrera v. Collins, June 25, 1993]
In other words, unless the petitioner can show that his constitutional rights were violated, his plea of "actual innocence" will not entitle him to a hearing. "Actual innocence" by itself is not a constitutional claim. The court majority recommends that those who have evidence of actual innocence seek executive clemency from the governor of the state. (In the present political climate of the U.S. this prerogative of the chief executive is almost never exercised or even considered.)
Later in the opinion Justice Rehnquist notes, "As the foregoing discussion illustrates, in state criminal proceedings the trial is the paramount event for determining the guilt or innocence of the defendant." Thus the only point at which an accused but innocent person has a substantial opportunity to be vindicated is at the original trial. After that, s/he is presumed guilty; though appeals are possible, their scope is quite narrow—particularly in the view of the present U. S. Supreme Court. However, it is often precisely at the trial level that accused persons receive incompetent representation.(8) The lower the fees paid by state or county to attorneys for indigent defendants, the greater the risk that they will receive an inadequate defense. The issue is not only incentives for attorneys to work hard at the case, but also attorneys' ability to hire investigators, ensure the presence of alibi witnesses, and consult forensic experts."
IP: Logged
06:05 PM
PFF
System Bot
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
If they'e mortal sins, isn't god going to punish him enough? .... And why isn't the death penalty a mortal sin.. Don't be pro capital punishment if you aren't willing to do it yourself (and sin).
Genesis 9:6 " Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed."
God sets the rules. If you obey His rules, it isn't a sin. So, no, it isn't a "mortal" sin. It isn't ANY kind of sin.
Who did God delegate the actual killing of the person to? "...by MAN".
Here's something from Amnesty International website. I'll do some math you can check as you read the quote that follows.
Number of prisoners executed since 1977... 944 (thru 2004 so actual number is now probably right at about 1000) Number released for innocence.................. 122
That's about 1 innocent released per 8 executed. (This is after a jury trials) You don't think we are executing innocent people? So if in a slow year 40 people were executed, about 5 people that year (on avarage) would have been found rotting away on death row that were found to be innocent. Out of those 40 killed, what are the odds some more were also innocent? Do you think there is an acceptable number of innocent people to execute? One a year? Every other year? I doubt anyone here would feel that way if they were the one getting the injection. I don't think it's an 'insignificant' number. The first page in a google search of "innocent execution" brought up about 60 case studies I read. I'm not anti-death penalty... I'm anti-death penalty where you can be executed because your court appointed lawyer making $400 a day failed to file proper paperwork within 3 days. Where someone else can get off death row by testifying that you confessed to the crime. Where the courts can ignore new evidence and the actual killer's confession and wack you anyway because your trial was 'fair'. Where the jury is tilted towards sentencing the defendant right from the start because by statute you have to be for the death penalty to sit on the jury, you CAN'T sit on that jury if your not willing to see that person put to death. That means automatically you've got a jury willing to see you die, that is NOT a jury of your peers. When you've got prosecutors tossing the death penalty around like it's a parking fine and giving the defendant about as much chance as the average person does in traffic court alone, there are going to be problems. The fact that the appeals are for fighting technicalities where the prosecution/judge/jury can lose for having done things wrong, but not for introducing new facts that prove innocence is just wrong. The burden of proof on us as a society should be way higher before we take a life, but we've got a political climate where the burden of proof is pretty damn low even when the cost is 10's of thousands of lives, so why worry about a couple of chumps in prison.
"Execution of the innocent As long as the death penalty is maintained, the risk of executing the innocent can never be eliminated.
Since 1973, 122 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004 and three up to December 2005. Some prisoners had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation. Other US prisoners have gone to their deaths despite serious doubts over their guilt.
The then Governor of the US state of Illinois, George Ryan, declared a moratorium on executions in January 2000. His decision followed the exoneration of the 13th death row prisoner found to have been wrongfully convicted in the state since the USA reinstated the death penalty in 1977. During the same period, 12 other Illinois prisoners had been executed. In January 2003 Governor Ryan pardoned four death row prisoners and commuted all 167 other death sentences in Illinois.
11. The death penalty in the USA
* 59 prisoners were executed in the USA in 2004, bringing the year-end total to 944 executed since the use of the death penalty was resumed in 1977. * Over 3,400 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2005. * 38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law. The death penalty is also provided under US federal military and civilian law."
IP: Logged
06:46 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
I'm anti-death penalty where you can be executed because your court appointed lawyer making $400 a day failed to file proper paperwork within 3 days.
That can't happen. That is the point. The appeals process is one in which defendants can argue that a point of law was overlooked or misinterpreted. In those cases the verdict can be set aside or a new trial can be granted. NO ONE dies without every possible i being dotted and every possible t being crossed.
IP: Logged
06:54 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
That can't happen. That is the point. The appeals process is one in which defendants can argue that a point of law was overlooked or misinterpreted. In those cases the verdict can be set aside or a new trial can be granted. NO ONE dies without every possible i being dotted and every possible t being crossed.
SUPREME COURT DECISION " Claims of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence have never been held to state a ground for federal habeas relief absent an independent constitutional violation occurring in the underlying state criminal proceeding....This rule is grounded in the principle that federal habeas courts sit to ensure that individuals are not imprisoned in violation of the Constitution—not to correct errors of fact. [Herrera v. Collins, June 25, 1993]"
Another one...
"Roger Keith Coleman was charged with murder in 1981. Throughout the eleven years between his arrest and his execution in May, 1992 he maintained that he was innocent; substantial evidence in the case pointed to another individual. A court-appointed attorney represented him at his trial. Coleman is widely believed by those who have followed his case to have been innocent, and to have received incompetent legal representation. The issue in the Supreme Court case was not actual innocence, however, but whether he could be denied an appeal in the Virginia Supreme Court simply because his attorney filed notice of appeal three days after the 30-day deadline. A key argument in the 6-3 decision is that the "petitioner" (Coleman) bears the risk for attorney errors. Justice O'Connor writes for the majority:
There is no constitutional right to an attorney in state post-conviction proceedings.... Consequently, a petitioner cannot claim constitutionally ineffective assistance of counsel in such proceedings. [Coleman v. Thompson, June 24, 1991]
One moral of this story seems to be that raising substantive issues after the original trial is extremely difficult, especially if one lacks the resources for adequate legal representation."
SO it can happen, it has happened, it'll continue to happen. Again, I'm not anti death penalty, I'm anti a system where it doesn't work correctly... and that's what we have. The Green River Killer got life after murdering many dozens of women over a period of decades because he testified against himself... should have been tied out in the sun, had his entrails pulled out through his ass and salted while peppers were ground into his eyes along with his pecker being dipped in acid. Had the proof including DNA, physical evidence etc... Same goes for the DC sniper duo. They got caught with the weapon, in the car used etc etc.. fry them. Having a system more interested in closure and being sure the paperwork was correctly handled than being damned sure you've killing the right person isn't acceptable to me . Having a legal system more interested in dotting i's and crossing t's than the truth doesn't cut it for me.
I can't think of ANYTHING worse than being locked in a cell for the rest of your life as a convicted murderer awaiting death row for something you know you didn't do. That would literally be hell. I'd be knocking my brains out against a cell wall once I knew I was never getting out.
IP: Logged
08:06 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Your numbers are misleading, at least the way you're presenting them.
According to your numbers, there are 3,400 on death row now and 944 have been executed so that means the total on death row OR executed since the death penalty was resumed is 4,466 (including the 122 that have been released). 122 were released so the appeals process and other means have resulted in an error rate of convictions (NOT EXECUTIONS) of 2.7%.
Now that's the number of wrongful convictions, NOT executions. It is probable that the vast majority of those that WERE truly innocent have been released........but PROBABLY NOT ALL.
This is my problem with the death penalty. Let's say that after conviction, appeals, and all avenues were followed, we as a society have a 2/100 of 1% error rate in wrongful executions. That's .02% we execute wrongly. That error rate means that 1 PERSON, 1 HUMAN BEING was killed in error, by what is thought to be one of the most "just" societies that has ever been established.
That one life wrongly put to death is too many, at least for me.
Now that's not to say I'm strongly against the death penalty. If there is absolute, iron-clad evidence that the person is guilty of murder, then I say they warrant the death penalty, but our justice system would have to be revamped in capital cases to do that. For instance, finding someone in the act and they later confess, I don't have a problem in the world with sending them to meet their maker. But that's not the case in our current legal system.
When we as a society take a life, that is an awesome responsibility and thing to do. If it's just, then I have no problem with it. If there is any doubt, even the slightest, then the death penalty is simply to irrevocable.
One more thing on your numbers as they're presented, your quote says that 38 of the 50 states have the death penalty. KS is one of them, but in actuality, our death penalty has been tied up in court and we effectually don't have one at the moment, I wonder how many other of the 38 are in the same boat? I suspect that only half or less of that number have a FUNCTIONING death penalty.
Again, I'm not arguing with your numbers, just trying to portray them in a more accurate light.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa:
Here's something from Amnesty International website. I'll do some math you can check as you read the quote that follows.
Number of prisoners executed since 1977... 944 (thru 2004 so actual number is now probably right at about 1000) Number released for innocence.................. 122
That's about 1 innocent released per 8 executed. (This is after a jury trials) You don't think we are executing innocent people? So if in a slow year 40 people were executed, about 5 people that year (on avarage) would have been found rotting away on death row that were found to be innocent. Out of those 40 killed, what are the odds some more were also innocent? Do you think there is an acceptable number of innocent people to execute? One a year? Every other year? I doubt anyone here would feel that way if they were the one getting the injection. I don't think it's an 'insignificant' number. The first page in a google search of "innocent execution" brought up about 60 case studies I read. I'm not anti-death penalty... I'm anti-death penalty where you can be executed because your court appointed lawyer making $400 a day failed to file proper paperwork within 3 days. Where someone else can get off death row by testifying that you confessed to the crime. Where the courts can ignore new evidence and the actual killer's confession and wack you anyway because your trial was 'fair'. Where the jury is tilted towards sentencing the defendant right from the start because by statute you have to be for the death penalty to sit on the jury, you CAN'T sit on that jury if your not willing to see that person put to death. That means automatically you've got a jury willing to see you die, that is NOT a jury of your peers. When you've got prosecutors tossing the death penalty around like it's a parking fine and giving the defendant about as much chance as the average person does in traffic court alone, there are going to be problems. The fact that the appeals are for fighting technicalities where the prosecution/judge/jury can lose for having done things wrong, but not for introducing new facts that prove innocence is just wrong. The burden of proof on us as a society should be way higher before we take a life, but we've got a political climate where the burden of proof is pretty damn low even when the cost is 10's of thousands of lives, so why worry about a couple of chumps in prison.
"Execution of the innocent As long as the death penalty is maintained, the risk of executing the innocent can never be eliminated.
Since 1973, 122 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004 and three up to December 2005. Some prisoners had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation. Other US prisoners have gone to their deaths despite serious doubts over their guilt.
The then Governor of the US state of Illinois, George Ryan, declared a moratorium on executions in January 2000. His decision followed the exoneration of the 13th death row prisoner found to have been wrongfully convicted in the state since the USA reinstated the death penalty in 1977. During the same period, 12 other Illinois prisoners had been executed. In January 2003 Governor Ryan pardoned four death row prisoners and commuted all 167 other death sentences in Illinois.
11. The death penalty in the USA
* 59 prisoners were executed in the USA in 2004, bringing the year-end total to 944 executed since the use of the death penalty was resumed in 1977. * Over 3,400 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2005. * 38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law. The death penalty is also provided under US federal military and civilian law."
, a ten is my favorite no strain hammer. Now that twenty pounder, that is work. And my arms are not near as big as his.
