While technically it can never be legal, if all you have is a sniffer there is a few different ways to tune for emissions. But again emissions are all new to me, being blessed to live in Michigan we dont have emission testing (yet).
I am ordering some new electronics this week so keep updated, this winter will be busy.
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11:36 PM
Jan 15th, 2010
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
I will have a website up soon I want to say by the end of the week, as I cant get any physical work done this week due to illness (mono to be more exact), but I dont want to say for certain. I will update when it is up!
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09:18 PM
Mar 1st, 2010
Gandalf Member
Posts: 647 From: Stockport, England Registered: May 2009
I checked the FAQ at that ecotec forum before typing this, nada, so what exactly does LNF refer to?
LNF is the 2.0l Ecotec used in the turbocharged Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky, and 2008 to current Cobalt SS. LSJ refers to the supercharged 2.0l Ecotec used in the 2007 and earlier Cobalt SS and Saturn Ion Redline. The LNF replaced the LSJ as the forced induction engine of choice for GM after their contract with Eaton ended in 2006.
--Will
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07:19 PM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
But is it possible in case I want to keep drive-by-wire? I've driven plenty of cars with it and I have no issues with it. I can't tell anything about a lag/delay. (heck, I can't tell the delay between me pressing a key on a keyboard and it appearing on the screen either..)
I also like the idea of no-lift-shift, which I think necessitates drive by wire. (or Nissan's synchro-rev, which again necessitates drive by wire. (and probably an ABS module, but that's more of a dream anyways.) )
No-lift-shift has been a way of life much longer than we've had computers. My dad was doing no-lift-shifting in his '66 Mustang 289 4-speed. That was nearly 40 years before DBW appeared in mass-production. The secret is to apply force to the shifter before kicking the clutch, so it's already in neutral before the clutch is really disengaged, then even as the shifter is sliding into the next gate, your left foot is sliding off the clutch pedal. Do it right, you'll shred the tires every time, and never kiss the rev limiter. Another thing the old dudes didn't have, just wind it until the engine feels out of breath. I love modern EFI, but DBW is only about emissions, nothing else. The '92 'vette had effective traction control without DBW, so GM claiming that DBW was necessary for the LS6 in the Z06to be winter-driveable is pure B.S. Snapping the throttle closed causes a sudden spike of HC, so DBW lets the computer slow the rate at which the blades close. DBW is to reduce HC more than anything else.
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08:00 PM
Will-Martin Member
Posts: 1164 From: DFW, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2002
Thank you. Now the first few posts of this thread make more sense to me.
The first few posts are talking about the direct injection used in the LNF engines. This means the injectors inject the fuel directly into the combustion chamber instead of into the intake manifold where it mixes with the intake air and is pulled into the chamber by vacuum or by vacuum/forced induction. The pressure that must be used to inject the fuel with direct injection is substantially higher than a typical fuel rail / fuel injector setup. So everyone is saying that for the management system to work with all Ecotec setups, it should probably account for the direct injection in an LNF application.
While technically it can never be legal, if all you have is a sniffer there is a few different ways to tune for emissions. But again emissions are all new to me, being blessed to live in Michigan we dont have emission testing (yet).
I am ordering some new electronics this week so keep updated, this winter will be busy.
So is there NEVER any possibility of the Ecotec swap being emissions legal?
You can make an emissions legal ecotec no problem you just wouldnt want to use megasquirt. You can use the swap with the stock ECU like you would in any other swap. Me personally I see nothing wrong with the stock ECU theres plenty of ways to use it with boost and HPtuners allows you to change everything else.
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01:39 PM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
You can make an emissions legal ecotec no problem you just wouldnt want to use megasquirt. You can use the swap with the stock ECU like you would in any other swap. Me personally I see nothing wrong with the stock ECU theres plenty of ways to use it with boost and HPtuners allows you to change everything else.
Ah ok...I guess I just don't understand/know much about the Megasquirt system, but I guess if its possible with the stock ecm and possible tuning still then thats cool
Originally posted by Fiero Finale: Ah ok...I guess I just don't understand/know much about the Megasquirt system, but I guess if its possible with the stock ecm and possible tuning still then thats cool
It is not OE so it will never be emissions legal even if you pass the tests and have all emissions systems operating... With that said... unless they know how to find your ECM and realize that it is not OE... well you get the idea.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 05-26-2010).]
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07:08 AM
Apr 3rd, 2011
jeffndebrus Member
Posts: 2772 From: Jacksonville, Fl- usa Registered: Aug 2001
The LNF output is tempting, especially with the GM 290 / 340 upgrade being $428. That's just $5.35 per ft-lb! But the LSJ not needing the extreme fuel pressure is more appealing than the LNF's huge numbers.
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10:48 AM
Apr 5th, 2011
jeffndebrus Member
Posts: 2772 From: Jacksonville, Fl- usa Registered: Aug 2001
After my jaw surgery in Dec. I was going to be selling the business to a local who was interested in everything I had and wanted to expand the entire venture. This however ended up falling through and I still have the business.
I was just going to end up selling all my equipment and dissolving the operations, however Feb-March have been "hot" in a sense I have been more busy than I was in all of 2010.
In order to keep operating, I am restructuring everything!
I will be selling two levels of Engine Management Solutions. One for the cheaper group of people, who want to get the ecotec into a vehicle on in the cheapest, safest, and most reliable way. Prices will be up as soon as I get everything squared away, if it goes the way I want it to, it will be *cheaper* than my current prices.
The next setup will be higher-end, every damn option you can want from a standalone, these will be a bit more expensive but if you have a compulsive-disorder where you need to tweak every aspect, this is the one you want.
My website is being 100% overhauled and will be completely functional for once.
-What my kits do not offer, they are NOT emissions compatible. Strictly "off-road" use only -No automatic transmission compatible, this will hopefully change. But if the transmission is vacuumed controlled with no input from the ECU then it could work. -Air Conditioning can work but not if it runs through the ECU.
-Idle is a PITA in my opinion. The base kit will not use any idle sensor. You set the idle by using the throttle stop screw on the stock Throttlebody, then using the cold-start options you increase fuel while it is cold and slowly decreases to normal levels as it warms. This has caused me ZERO problems and makes it super simple to adjust idle without the need of the ECM (once the cold-start settings are set). Eliminates another thing that can go wrong.
-The two major changes with the Ecotec are the cranks, the older uses a 7 tooth crank. This style crank is cheaper and easier to use. These Gen 1 engines were used until 2005-era. The 2nd generation uses a 60-2 tooth and cost me more to put together. Ignition needs to be changed in the ECU to work or I can add a 7x trigger wheel to the front of the pulley and use the style of the Gen1 ignition, this is the most versatile but the most expensive.
-The LNF, direct-injected, turboed 260hp Ecotec is NOT supported, nor are the other direct-injected engines. However this is under research for a possible addition. Your options are to use the block, but an older style head (LSJ, L61). Powerwise you can outdo the LNF quickly, but without the complications of the extras.
As you know, I will be interested in one of these setups at some point, and with the way gas prices are going up I bet you'll sell more of these than people will sell SBC kits.
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01:11 AM
May 2nd, 2011
longjonsilver Member
Posts: 1064 From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia Registered: Nov 2001
im still following this thread. i have gotten my duke to run real well after spending much time and money figuring out the problem. ill stick with it for now, but as it is using oil, my next motor will definitely be an ecotec with megasquirt as i can use my factory gauges. jon
------------------ I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Yeah the Ecotec is a great performer, besides the mpg of the engine, it could still turn a 15.0 or less in the 1/4 nearly stock. Which is much better than the v6 as well. On the highway, with minimum extra weight, you can run at AFR in the 16-17:1 ratio range with a bit of massaging of the spark timing and get awesome mileage and barely working the engine.
I am going to start posting some videos of my Ecotecfiero on youtube to give you guys some video proof of ecotec-coolness
New website is up and running www.dicepd.com along with new (lower) prices on the base ECM. Still adding some stuff to it but the basics are there
Hiya! I sent you a PM on EcoTechForum a bit ago... You can ignore it. I'd rather chat here. It's more on-topic. It looks like with the combination of your kit (I take it it's MegaSquirt?) and Roger's mounts, the work of swapping an Ecotec with it's transmission is cut down considerably. I've got a budget, and I've got the space to work. I'm going to make this happen. My biggest question I have right now is which donor to use. I'd like to start with a 2.4 (LE5) simply because of the added displacement and power. I'm not going to do any power upgrades at all. I just want to get the swap done to start with. I think I should start looking for an '06-'07 Cobalt. Can you give me any input on it? I'm swapping into an 88 Formula, btw. It's currently in the shop getting a new paint job.
[This message has been edited by benjamin.long (edited 05-07-2011).]
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09:59 PM
May 7th, 2011
Kento Member
Posts: 4218 From: Beautifull Winston Salem NC Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by benjamin.long: Roger's mounts, the work of swapping an Ecotec
OK link to this please.
------------------
**************************************** 88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252 Time to start Working TONY! There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!
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11:29 AM
benjamin.long Member
Posts: 87 From: Fleetwood, Pa, USA Registered: Apr 2011
Hiya! I sent you a PM on EcoTechForum a bit ago... You can ignore it. I'd rather chat here. It's more on-topic. It looks like with the combination of your kit (I take it it's MegaSquirt?) and Roger's mounts, the work of swapping an Ecotec with it's transmission is cut down considerably. I've got a budget, and I've got the space to work. I'm going to make this happen. My biggest question I have right now is which donor to use. I'd like to start with a 2.4 (LE5) simply because of the added displacement and power. I'm not going to do any power upgrades at all. I just want to get the swap done to start with. I think I should start looking for an '06-'07 Cobalt. Can you give me any input on it? I'm swapping into an 88 Formula, btw. It's currently in the shop getting a new paint job.
Hey Ben, I just got your email through the site. I am going to answer your questions here, but I am going to send you an email. For some reason I think my emails are all going directly to the spam folder. If you could let me know if my email made it back to your inbox and not spam it would be very helpful
Unfortunately no standalone can successfully control the VVT of the LE5 (yet) but you can do what I did and use a LE5 bottom end with a L61 head. This is 100% bolt-on. However, the L61 cams are way to tiny for the LE5 displacement and stroke. With the stock L61 cams, it drives normal around town but it runs out of air over 4,000 rpms and I mean it just stops revving and going any faster, it is that bad.
I will be publishing a .pdf file for the swap soon on my website. It will be a few pages long but will outline the various ways of swapping an ecotec.
IMO if you are looking for a gas-mileage vehicle and no power upgrades (besides the necessary ones for the swap), the L61 is a better pick. Like I have stated before with the stock MT2 fiero transmission, I got 47mpg with it and I believe with less than $300 bucks in modifications it can run low 15s in the quarter mile, maybe even high 14s if massaged enough, which is quite quicker than a v6 fiero.
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12:32 PM
benjamin.long Member
Posts: 87 From: Fleetwood, Pa, USA Registered: Apr 2011
Hey Ben, I just got your email through the site. I am going to answer your questions here, but I am going to send you an email. For some reason I think my emails are all going directly to the spam folder. If you could let me know if my email made it back to your inbox and not spam it would be very helpful
Unfortunately no standalone can successfully control the VVT of the LE5 (yet) but you can do what I did and use a LE5 bottom end with a L61 head. This is 100% bolt-on. However, the L61 cams are way to tiny for the LE5 displacement and stroke. With the stock L61 cams, it drives normal around town but it runs out of air over 4,000 rpms and I mean it just stops revving and going any faster, it is that bad.
I will be publishing a .pdf file for the swap soon on my website. It will be a few pages long but will outline the various ways of swapping an ecotec.
IMO if you are looking for a gas-mileage vehicle and no power upgrades (besides the necessary ones for the swap), the L61 is a better pick. Like I have stated before with the stock MT2 fiero transmission, I got 47mpg with it and I believe with less than $300 bucks in modifications it can run low 15s in the quarter mile, maybe even high 14s if massaged enough, which is quite quicker than a v6 fiero.
Thats a shame about the VVT control. What kind of control does the VVT need? Could the VVT be locked at a setting and left alone? I guess I'll stick with a 2.2 then. Do I need any of the existing wiring harness when I get the engine? I guess a L61 and F23 from a Cavalier is the way to go. What should I ask for from the donor? I'm waiting to hear back from Roger Theiln about his swap parts. I left a message at the number on his website, but the greeting was really generic. I hope it's the right number. Ps. I did get your email. I'll build a higher end turbocharged version when I get more experience with the engine.
Thats a shame about the VVT control. What kind of control does the VVT need? Could the VVT be locked at a setting and left alone? I guess I'll stick with a 2.2 then. Do I need any of the existing wiring harness when I get the engine? I guess a L61 and F23 from a Cavalier is the way to go. What should I ask for from the donor? I'm waiting to hear back from Roger Theiln about his swap parts. I left a message at the number on his website, but the greeting was really generic. I hope it's the right number. Ps. I did get your email. I'll build a higher end turbocharged version when I get more experience with the engine.
Locking the stock cams is something I've looked into, I've also been in contact with a guy in europe who has hacked the VVT system for a swap and has tuned it, but its come up with numerous issues doing so, but has made a lot of progress over the years. The only wiring harness you need is around the engine for the male plugs of the sensors, although if you had the entire engine wiring, you could make a single plug like the cavaliers had.
Turbocharging it, ECM wise has no changes except tuning for the boost, unless your going to go over 20psi then I have to upgrade the MAP sensor.
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02:50 PM
benjamin.long Member
Posts: 87 From: Fleetwood, Pa, USA Registered: Apr 2011
Locking the stock cams is something I've looked into, I've also been in contact with a guy in europe who has hacked the VVT system for a swap and has tuned it, but its come up with numerous issues doing so, but has made a lot of progress over the years. The only wiring harness you need is around the engine for the male plugs of the sensors, although if you had the entire engine wiring, you could make a single plug like the cavaliers had.
Turbocharging it, ECM wise has no changes except tuning for the boost, unless your going to go over 20psi then I have to upgrade the MAP sensor.
It seems to me that locking the vvt would be a reasonable solution if it can be done. If it's not possible, then I'll go with a 2.2 just to get it done. Is the 2005 Cavalier a good donor?
I can't wait until your product is tweaked to perfection. I'm sure you will sell tons of these. DOHC, faster than a 2.8l, and 40+mpg...sounds like the perfect swap for a daily driven Fiero to me.
I want to say by the end of the week, as I cant get any physical work done this week due to illness (mono to be more exact), but I dont want to say for certain. I will update when it is up!
. I had issues with fonts, links and pictures when I first got it up and going. 
With that said... unless they know how to find your ECM and realize that it is not OE... well you get the idea. 
