Of course not as cool as the topic made it sound lol... BUT
My thoughts are everywhere right now so ill give it to you in sections and you can try to piece together what im trying to get at.
-- DIY Vertical doors -- Templates that could be traced onto blank sheets of thick steel -- All pieces of design must be able to be worked by regular power tools and ..stuff. -- Uses pieces that can easily be found at hardware stores or scrap yards.
=Issues=
Reliability Strength quality of shelf / scrap parts ?Functional?
Has anyone messed around with building their own vertical doors with home garage tolerances and tools? Im definatly no expert but I think with the right combination of parts this could be done relatively cheaply. Im pretty creative and have more spare time than what i know what to do with, and with all the talk of vertical doors going around i believe im on a quest to build SOMETHING at least somewhat functional out of steel, junkyard parts and hardware store shelf items. Whatever i build, if it works, i want it to be easily made by others. I want the metal pieces to be easily traced from paper onto blank sheets of steel and be able to be cut my home garage tools.
Be open minded lol Ideas anyone? Parts that could be used? Pictures? Anyone have plans floating around?
Thanks!
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[This message has been edited by Chris Hodson (edited 04-01-2007).]
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03:52 AM
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Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3099 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
HOLY COW! I just took a gander over at AJ7's thread. He seems to be under some pressure by the community, i kinda feel bad for him, but pictures would be nice. I guess I better say it now, Im not promising anything lol. Ill never post deadlines because I KNOW im terrible at making them. Im just trying to maybe help us get closer to something functional and CHEAP. Or just have fun doing it! I saw someone post A really neat looking pedal setup for a street rod that was made with mostly hand tools. He mentioned something along the lines of how cool it is to take raw materials and turn them into art. I think this is neat, these are the kind of people I need to see posting here!
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04:41 AM
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
It's a cool idea for a thread, Chris, but does your everyday garage tools include a welder? I don't see a way of getting it together without one, and I don't think most people have one.
Don't let this stop you and this thread. Like I said above, It's a cool idea, and I'd like to see it progress.
Now, what can we use for the hinge??
Bob
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08:41 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
Here am I, and here is the post you mentioned from the other thread...
I made this firewall and pedal assemblies for my street rod project by hand: The tools used were a jig saw, 4.5" right-angle grinder, hand drill, hammer, and common hand tools. I have a drill press now, but did all the holes in these by hand. I still have hours and hours of finishing work to do but they assemble like high-end factory parts and works perfectly. I have to have the pedal mounts and the brake pedal adjusting block TIG'd on (they're bolted from the back now). That adjusting block was hand carved from a chunk of aluminum with the aforementioned grinder. I turned a threaded insert for it on the lathe, heated the block with a propane torch, and "press-fit" the insert into the block with a piece of wood and my hammer.
It just takes a little more time, but I love the "old world" craftsman feeling of turning raw ingredients into functional art - by hand!
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10:02 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
It's a cool idea for a thread, Chris, but does your everyday garage tools include a welder? I don't see a way of getting it together without one, and I don't think most people have one.
Don't let this stop you and this thread. Like I said above, It's a cool idea, and I'd like to see it progress.
Now, what can we use for the hinge??
Bob
If you don't have a welder you can design the parts so that they can be bolted together and taken to a welder. The mounts for my street rod's pedals are mocked up with bolts. I do have a MIG welder but want this stuff TIG'd. When he welds it, the bolts will be removed, the holes TIG'd full, and ground off flush.
There is another option but I haven't experimented with it yet. The little propane torch sized gas welding sets you can buy at Home Depot or Lowe's. They use an oxygen cylnder and Mapp gas in place of acetylene. The oxygen is relatively expensive and doesn't last long but should work well enough for tacking pieces together to take them to a professional welder.
I was tempted to start a thread like this to discuss how the Koenigsegg-style doors can really be done on a normal car. I'm glad I waited and glad you started it. I'll add what I can here to make this a productive discussion...
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 04-01-2007).]
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11:01 AM
Apr 2nd, 2007
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3099 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
HA YES! A start of an awesome thread my friends. And thats exactly the post i saw! Im glad your here! I take for granted sometimes that i have a few welders. I cant mig weld anything without it looking like crap due to my lack of gas but I have a stick welder and i mostly use 6013's on everything and i can make some very nice looking welds. I wouldnt think it would be hard to find a welder if you didnt have one yourself. Especially if you live in a farm community. Im not so sure about living in a city...but I have one lol and so far its a fact that one will need a welder and some basic skills to do this project. We can talk about how to get welders for people who dont have them later. A good place to find cheap tools is Harbor Frieght, they always have things on sale.
HING: I work at a hotel, The door hinges are effin sturdy! Very thick metal used for heavy doors. Ill go home later tonight and snap a few photos. I think these could be used. Also i remember seeing on my berreta, the trunk has a hing shaped almost like the arm that holds the door on the vertical door setups that are out. Im thinking a stock fiero hing could be manipulated so this "idea" remains bolt on. Im going to go home and play in the garage a bit with the hinges. Ill post pics later.
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01:33 AM
Apr 4th, 2007
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3099 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
WELL.. i didnt get around to welding anything up. Im still at a lack of parts. But look at these bad a$$ hinges i do think these could work for something....Besides a hotel door...
Im still lookin for some more junk i could use. Ideas?
you need something that will hold up the the vibration of a car going down the road. I think your door hinges will not hold up. I would look for a machine hinge, something that will hold up to vibration.
ehhh... yeah... wouldnt use that hinge. that just reminded me of a butterfly door I saw, they just made it hinge on the window frame with regular hinges. (bolted to the outside of the door) rofl...
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08:29 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
Typically, when people say "vertical doors" they mean the type of hinge like Madcurl has on the silver car. They swing out a bit, like a normal door, and then pivot up. These are patterned after the trademark Lamborghini "scissor" doors.
AJ7's thread is about Konigsegg style doors which seem to just roll forward from a pivot located much lower, at the bottom front corner of the door. They actually swing out as well, but the hinge is designed so the door remains parallel to the side of the car.
I am trying to imagine where you are considering using a hinge like the commercial door hinge in your pictures. To do either style of vertical door mentioned above, you're going to have a tremendous side load on the pins. A typical door hinge wasn't designed for this. The weight of the door is carried more on the plates than the pin. I think repeated use of this style hinge would result in the pin wearing rapidly, and possibly breaking while the door was hanging in mid air!
I am not trying to discourage you, and may have some ideas for the type of parts you need. First I need to know which type of action you desire.
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 04-04-2007).]
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10:17 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
I was going to do a 3D model but I looked at the Konigsegg pics again (from AJ7's thread) and they actually illustrate my point perfectly.
You need bearings in the hinges that are designd to carry high side loads. Tapered roller bearing, such as those found in automotive wheel hubs are the best answer. It would be a bit more expensive than architectural door hinges, but you can still get used parts.
For the two pivot points that swing the door out you could use non-driven front wheel spindles and bearings. Go to a wrecking yard and buy four complete knuckles, remove the spindles from them, and the bearings from the hub/rotors. I suggested non-driven front wheel parts because they are longer and typically have smaller diameter spindles. A small, high-production, vehicle would give the lowest cost, and smallest part. You will need to have four pieces turned at a machine shop to replace the hubs. The right diameter steel tubing with half-inch wall thickness will work. Just have them turn each end to accept the bearing races.
For the door pivot, you can use a front-drive style bolt in hub, and the outer exle end. I suggest the front-drive style hub assembly for this because it is typically much shallower in overall thickness; and has a large diameter "pin" to carry the weight of the door better. The ideal setup would be a C4 Corvette hub/bearing assembly and 4WD S10 front axle outer end.
Look at the Konigsegg pics and see if you can figure out where I am going with this. I have some work to do now, but I'll elaborate more later.
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 04-04-2007).]
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11:14 AM
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jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
WELL.. i didnt get around to welding anything up. Im still at a lack of parts. But look at these bad a$$ hinges i do think these could work for something....Besides a hotel door...
You are joking right? A hotel door hinge on a car? You mean like this?
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11:51 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Notice the distant between the mounting area and the fender. That's alot of clearance between the two. I'd say you'd need a really wide front wide-body fender to accomplish this task..unless you're making the device shorter?
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12:14 PM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
Originally posted by madcurl: Notice the distant between the mounting area and the fender. That's alot of clearance between the two. I'd say you'd need a really wide front wide-body fender to accomplish this task..unless you're making the device shorter?
A lot of design and testing would need to be done, but I believe it can be shorter on a Fiero. Notice the thickness of the Konigsegg door? That hinge has to swing the door out a long way to clear the body.
Any way it's done it would be a LOT of fabrication, and probably three times the cost the person thinks they will spend. I have decided that it is just too much of an investment (time and money) for the end result for my project, but I am still willing to help anyone interested in doing it. I have a lot of ideas on how to go about it and I am sure I could make it work.
I am still looking into a "vertical" door setup for my Camaro, but not Konigsegg or Lambo style. My design would be more of a butterfly type action. The reason I am considering it is my car is a marketing tool and doors hanging in the air draw people towards the vehicle at events. I like to showcase the design in the stuff I fabricate and the Konigsegg and Lambo style hinges don't give me enough "canvas".
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 04-04-2007).]
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12:56 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Any way it's done it would be a LOT of fabrication, and probably three times the cost the person thinks they will spend. I have decided that it is just too much of an investment (time and money) for the end result for my project, but I am still willing to help anyone interested in doing it. I have a lot of ideas on how to go about it and I am sure I could make it work.
I agree. Plus a major company is about to maket this style of hindge making it available to those with deep pockets (no doubt smaller for applications). I've said it before, the cost isn't going to be under 2k and why should it? Especailly when the regular VDC kits are close to 2k. My guess is nearing the 4k range if not more? The kit should be on display at the SEMA 2007 show.
Notice the distant between the mounting area and the fender. That's alot of clearance between the two. I'd say you'd need a really wide front wide-body fender to accomplish this task..unless you're making the device shorter?
no one is probably noticing the large area that the door skin covers...
I agree. Plus a major company is about to maket this style of hindge making it available to those with deep pockets (no doubt smaller for applications). I've said it before, the cost isn't going to be under 2k and why should it? Especailly when the regular VDC kits are close to 2k. My guess is nearing the 4k range if not more? The kit should be on display at the SEMA 2007 show.
what company? I knew there was some that were working on it or probably working on it.. but which one are you talking about?
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01:31 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
I agree. Plus a major company is about to maket this style of hindge making it available to those with deep pockets (no doubt smaller for applications). I've said it before, the cost isn't going to be under 2k and why should it? Especailly when the regular VDC kits are close to 2k. My guess is nearing the 4k range if not more? The kit should be on display at the SEMA 2007 show.
Correction: The price is $4,500 with a patent pending. The kit will need extensive modification (welding) + other major tweaking and will devue at SEMA 2007 but will be out in limited supplys in 60-days. SEMA is held in late OCT-early NOV 2007.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 04-04-2007).]
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02:45 PM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
I wonder if there could be pins put in to take the load off of the hing when the door is shut. That would take a lot of wear out of the assembly. Most of the wear will be vibration in the closed position. If you had pins that took the load off of the hing you could build them out of lighter materials but I still wouldn't use cheap door hinges.
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05:46 PM
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shawnkfl Member
Posts: 2457 From: Largo, Florida Registered: Oct 2004
This door hinge, isn’t your everyday door hinge. That’s why it came to mind. These doors are designed to take a heavy beating from repeated use. When I started working here they told me the safest place to lock yourself in is the breakfast room. I guess these doors were made to put up with a lot of stuff. I know there are a few spares up in the storage room I could get my hand on if I wanted. I have faith in these. Im going to try and call the manufacturer to find out the specs. If I can figure out who that manufacturer is…
Ha! don’t worry about discouraging me. I love the input, your thoughts, suggestions, everything is good. I think this whole thing is fun.
I think we are shooting for the classic Lamborghini "scissor" doors. I think no matter what its going to have to open out a bit to clear the fender before it actually goes up right? Something not very complicated that could somewhat easily be replicated at home. I don’t care about making a profit if something works, I don’t really care about patents, all that seems to slow the creative process lol “and pictures“ . I just want others to have access to the design and be able to make in in their home garage.
Damn Todd, you have a lot of info. Im glad you’re here. You got my mind working. I like the wheel bearing idea.
“You are joking right? A hotel door hinge on a car? You mean like this?” OM goodness lol no way, not like that lol. WOW someone did that lol? This hinge is on a totally different playing field then those. Wow lol. How embarrassing.
Im not sure I care for the Konigsegg doors. What’s going to be the “easiest” to fabricate, lambo or butterfly? I hope junk yard parts for this project “once we decide on something that may work” wont get to 2-4k lol.
Thanks for responding everyone. I wasn’t expecting to get that many. That made my night J
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12:53 AM
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3099 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
Check these out. I was trying to think of something smaller for bearings like riding lawnmowers, I know its not Junkyard parts but they are still somewhat cheap. Maybe these could be used?
You guys really want to make them yourself? Maybe I'll show ya how... If you really want to, I'll draw up some stuff on my computer when I have time, that will show you how to make some to work like the regular kits, but with cheap stuff that you can find locally.. but yes, you will have to weld, and you will need a drill press... (just a really good drill will work).
So, should I make some "blue prints" for it and post? or do you guys not think I even have any designes or anything?
btw, this would be almost a copy of what is already out there, so I couldnt sell it anyway.
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09:11 AM
TXGOOD Member
Posts: 5410 From: Austin, Texas Registered: Feb 2006
You said the key word "almost". Why are people so worried about copying something. Everything has been done at least once. If you change it up a tiny bit it is not a copy of anything. On here they mention regular door hinges for example. I work in the construction field and we deal with at least 4 manufacturers of door hinges and if the name wasn`t on them you couldn`t tell the difference from one to the other. The "name" is trademarked but not the basic design because all housing door hinges work basically the same. I would think this would be the case in car parts too.
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09:25 AM
xgamefan Member
Posts: 174 From: new holstein, Wisconsin Registered: Jan 2006
Nice work Chris...sketch it, posterboard taped to the car, then cutout in plywood. Thats how I did the doors on my Probe and yes it was done with everyday garage tools and a welder. However the main brackets use the existing mounting holes. the hardest thing I had was getting the 2 150# shocks in the perfect spot so the door would go up and down easily. I think I had to drill and tap at least 6 different locations but hey It can be done. This is what mine looked like
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10:23 AM
xgamefan Member
Posts: 174 From: new holstein, Wisconsin Registered: Jan 2006
You guys really want to make them yourself? Maybe I'll show ya how... If you really want to, I'll draw up some stuff on my computer when I have time, that will show you how to make some to work like the regular kits, but with cheap stuff that you can find locally.. but yes, you will have to weld, and you will need a drill press... (just a really good drill will work).
So, should I make some "blue prints" for it and post? or do you guys not think I even have any designes or anything?
btw, this would be almost a copy of what is already out there, so I couldnt sell it anyway.
I would like to see them. I want lambo doors so bad but nobody makes any kind of even close to affordable kit.
------------------ having an import that can run 11's...is kinda like comming out of the closet....your going to suprise a lot of people....but in the end your still gay
What a passanger would say in nascar "Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should go faster. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Can I put my feet out the window? Man, you really like Tide...”
Living with a conscience is like driving a car with the brakes on.
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10:27 AM
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xgamefan Member
Posts: 174 From: new holstein, Wisconsin Registered: Jan 2006
You said the key word "almost". Why are people so worried about copying something. Everything has been done at least once. If you change it up a tiny bit it is not a copy of anything. On here they mention regular door hinges for example. I work in the construction field and we deal with at least 4 manufacturers of door hinges and if the name wasn`t on them you couldn`t tell the difference from one to the other. The "name" is trademarked but not the basic design because all housing door hinges work basically the same. I would think this would be the case in car parts too.
the reason I said almost... you need a CNC to make alot of those kits, possibly a lathe.. I'd just use things you can go to a local hardware store and buy.. Oh, and people have been sued for making knock-offs already (these are different than those hinges), guess what happend? the company that got sued, baught out the other company... thaught that was kind of funny... lol
I would like to see them. I want lambo doors so bad but nobody makes any kind of even close to affordable kit.
how does $300 sound? If you have a welder and drill press, maybe a few other tools.. it might cost less. that price does depend on what quality of materials you use, and what struts..etc.
I'll start working on it off and on when I have to wait for things to get done...
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10:38 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
how does $300 sound? If you have a welder and drill press, maybe a few other tools.. it might cost less. that price does depend on what quality of materials you use, and what struts..etc.
I'll start working on it off and on when I have to wait for things to get done...
Well I got both so thats no prob. Sounds like a price I would like.
------------------ having an import that can run 11's...is kinda like comming out of the closet....your going to suprise a lot of people....but in the end your still gay
What a passanger would say in nascar "Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should go faster. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Can I put my feet out the window? Man, you really like Tide...”
Living with a conscience is like driving a car with the brakes on.
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11:25 AM
fieropimp Member
Posts: 422 From: Port Huron, Mi Registered: May 2004
Hmmm I wonder if they would work those dont look too bad I wonder if anyone has used them.
------------------ having an import that can run 11's...is kinda like comming out of the closet....your going to suprise a lot of people....but in the end your still gay
What a passanger would say in nascar "Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should go faster. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Can I put my feet out the window? Man, you really like Tide...”
Living with a conscience is like driving a car with the brakes on.
Hmmm I wonder if they would work those dont look too bad I wonder if anyone has used them.
I wouldn't recommend those, I'd stick with the decah style ones... those only have 2 mounting points and HAVE to be welded, Ofcourse I would recommend to weld any of them... alot more strength. the design I'll post later, will be the decah style stock mounting locations. It wont just be for fiero's, I'll tell you how to make it for any car.
btw, I do have a design for a lambo kit that I need to make a prototype for to make sure it will work the way it says it should on paper.. If it works, I'd be able to sell those kits for about $400-500. because of the simple design... ofcourse this is aways into the future for me.
Originally posted by AJ7: how does $300 sound? If you have a welder and drill press, maybe a few other tools...
quote
Originally posted by AJ7:...I wouldn't recommend those, I'd stick with the decah style ones... those only have 2 mounting points and HAVE to be welded, Ofcourse I would recommend to weld any of them...
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