Which is a better engine? More reliable? Aftermarket support?

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I'll be watching.

-felix


'88 T-Top 5spd
1102 of 1252

LS1, LS1 & LS1

I don't know about better engine, or which one's more reliable, but the LS-1 wins hands down in the aftermarket category...nothing else comes close, not even the vaunted Honda aftermarket.

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: Which is a better engine? More reliable? Aftermarket support?

Northstar. LS1. LS1.

The northstar is actually very reliable, but it's achilles heel is blowing head gaskets. Timeserting the head bolt holes in the block would make it 300,000 mile reliable, but that is a lot of work compared to just installing a used engine.

Aftermarket support goes to LS1 hands down.

But quad cams are where it's at. And if you don't understand that now, you probably never will.

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Ryan - Northstar GT - 256RWHP / 258TQ

Owner of the first paddle-shifted, Northstar powered fiero.

Swap wise, the northstar has more valid characteristics in a fiero. The fact that you dont need a fancy adapter plate, makes it a bit more valid than the ls1.

I like the tuning support that the ls1 market has, along with the baseline power just a bit above the northstars. But honestly in a manual fiero, the northstar wins here again, because the ls1 is not generally a high rpm motor that the fiero manual really really needs to be mated with.

I think the questions you asked were a bit biased to a motor that has the legacy the LS1 has, because it really is the very top design of the 350 started 40 some years ago. the northstar is more of a science project that started about 15 years ago, with no major changes, so it really is far from the refined perfect motor that the LS1 is. So to change your original post a bit to better suit.

quote What one is better with a manual? Which one is easier and cheaper to swap?

Northstar, northstar

do you want a Ferrari or a baby Corvette??

In my opinion the archilles heel of the Northstar is the lack of aftermarket tuning cpability.

If you like tuning your engine, then the Northstar is not for you. I spent hours talking with an individual that has a running Northstar in his car, yet he has an LS1 on another cradle that he plans to swap in for that reason.

Don't forget about the LS4 being an option when it comes to V-8 swaps. I am working on this swap slowy now and things are looking good with it.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: In my opinion the archilles heel of the Northstar is the lack of aftermarket tuning cpability. If you like tuning your engine, then the Northstar is not for you. I spent hours talking with an individual that has a running Northstar in his car, yet he has an LS1 on another cradle that he plans to swap in for that reason.

Could you explain a little more please? What do you mean by "tuning"? Like add-on parts? Cams? Heads? Or computer tuning?

If you are going to do a high buck V8 swap, consider the LS2. The power to weight ratio on this lightweight engine is exceptional. Due to the expense not many Fiero owners seem to have one so Archie may be the only source of info on these swaps.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Could you explain a little more please? What do you mean by "tuning"? Like add-on parts? Cams? Heads? Or computer tuning?

I'll try, but it's all second hand information, so I may get it wrong...

But the Northstar Caddy ECM is just barely cracked. You can bolt in a Northstar and get it to run, but that's about it. Like in the early days of the 4.9 people were either driving them around in limp mode, using an ECM from another car, or slapping a Carb on them. The Northstar is not that bad, but if you want to make any major changes to the engine like a cam, heads, timing, or add a power adder like a turbo or super charger, it will be very difficult to get it to run right and tune it. If you go with an aftermarket ECM, now you have issues with the auto transmission. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble unless you live in California and want a stock V8, or you can't live without the thought of an overhead cam V8.

On the other hand the LS1 has tons of after market support across the boards.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I'll try, but it's all second hand information, so I may get it wrong... But the Northstar Caddy ECM is just barely cracked. You can bolt in a Northstar and get it to run, but that's about it. Like in the early days of the 4.9 people were either driving them around in limp mode, using an ECM from another car, or slapping a Carb on them. The Northstar is not that bad, but if you want to make any major changes to the engine like a cam, heads, timing, or add a power adder like a turbo or super charger, it will be very difficult to get it to run right and tune it. If you go with an aftermarket ECM, now you have issues with the auto transmission. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble unless you live in California and want a stock V8, or you can't live without the thought of an overhead cam V8. On the other hand the LS1 has tons of after market support across the boards.

It's mostly correct..... I wouldn't even call the N* PCM cracked. However, I sell a chip/ECM that covers the popular years (95-99) and makes tuning relatively easy. At $50, it is cheaper than even a megasquirt ECM kit you have to assemble yourself. However you are right - if you use that, or any aftermarket ECM you will need a transmission controller if you want to use the auto.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I'll try, but it's all second hand information, so I may get it wrong... But the Northstar Caddy ECM is just barely cracked. You can bolt in a Northstar and get it to run, but that's about it. Like in the early days of the 4.9 people were either driving them around in limp mode, using an ECM from another car, or slapping a Carb on them. The Northstar is not that bad, but if you want to make any major changes to the engine like a cam, heads, timing, or add a power adder like a turbo or super charger, it will be very difficult to get it to run right and tune it. If you go with an aftermarket ECM, now you have issues with the auto transmission. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble unless you live in California and want a stock V8, or you can't live without the thought of an overhead cam V8. On the other hand the LS1 has tons of after market support across the boards.

Although I don't like my BS3 ecu, it allows me to tune every aspect of my Northstar. It uses a WBO2 sensor, and I can change every variable. I can even change individual cylinder fueling if I wanted. My ecu was $2600us which is a downside but it has all the tuning capability of almost any other aftermarket ecu out there, LS1 included.

If your friend was trying to tune the stock N* computer, then he was right. Its not cracked and there is no tuning to be done. If he had Ryan's computer or my aftermarket ecu then there is a ton of tuning potential.

There is aftermarket for the N*, not sure why people think there is not. You can get everything you need from www.chrfab.com Cams, springs, retainers, pistons, rods, porting, exhaust, ecu's, intakes, turbos, superchargers etc etc. Lots of aftermarket for the N* but less selection of different brand names making the same part.

I personally like the N* because its a 32V all aluminum DOHC V-8. There is a cool factor with having an exotic V-8 behind you.

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Buy a fiero, become a mechanic
3.4 dohc Install
Sub Install
Northstar Install

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: Which is a better engine? More reliable? Aftermarket support?

"Better engine" is a matter of opinion. It's easier to get a Northstar to spin to 8,000 RPM, but it's easier to get 400 ftlbs of torque from an LSx.
"Reliable" is a wash. They're both designed for 100K+ mile lifespans by GM and feature similar technology & construction. The LSx is more likely to frag a transmission due to its torque and will be harder on clutches. A stock Northstar can run 12's with a stick.

Aftermarket support is better for the LSx... after all, only GM makes Northstar blocks, but aftermarket LSx blocks are already here.

I agree. I think reliability is a wash. The next big questions are what kind of horsepower do you want to run and do you which engine's character do you prefer? 300 - 400 HP is very easy with either, so that's a wash, too. Then it just comes down to personal preference.

If I were doing a Northstar, I'd bite the bullet and get the CHRFAB electronics, wiring, etc. They also have upgrade parts to get some serious HP out of the Northstar. There isn't much aftermarket for it, but they've got some good stuff.

With the LSx, the sky's the limit. 350HP LS1, 400HP LS6 or LS2, and with a cam and head swap, 500+ HP is easy to attain. Once you get over 400 HP naturally aspirated, I'd give the nod to the LSx, unless you specifically want a high rpm screamer. 6500 - 7000 is about max for an LSx. Even the LS7 uses titanium connecting rods to get to 7000 rpm.

The Northstar will buzz up a lot easier. Set it up for a high rpm power band and it should be a screamer on a road course, and a bit easier on the transmission.

I love them both. If I had the money, I'd like to have one of each. A Formula LS2 and a GT Northstar. (both with a 6-speed, of course)

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-14-2007).]

The northstar is more exotic. N* Ftw here.

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At the dealerships, which engine frequents they're repair shop?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: At the dealerships, which engine frequents they're repair shop?

Why not enlighten us?

Quite a few LS1s have an oil consumption problem and piston slap at startup. Gm will tell you its normal for your car to burn a few quarts per oil change interval....

It was already mentioned about the early head gaskets on the N*s.

Lets see, the 3.4dohc likes to eat valves when the timing belt goes, the 3400 and 3800 like to drink antifreeze when the intake gasket leaks, the LT1 fries its Optispark... The Northstar is not the only GM engine with an issue, which is an issue corrected by propper maintinance.

Troyboy has mentioned to me on several occasions, that the N* has reduced the amount of engine repairs vs. older pass styles. Granted, maybe the dealership mechanics are now working on issues mentioned involving the N* now?

LS1.

I like both, but not many motors can beat the LS1 for performance vs. size/weight. Its quite a bit smaller than a N* because of the ohv design and has more hp/torque (except fot the supercharged N*s).

I really like the LS1 and especially the LS6, great engines.

The N* only makes sense because it does not need an expensive install kit and you can install it like any other fiero engine swap. Uses a fiero flywheel or a spec aluminum one.

yeah the Northstar is great that it produces good power in stock form and doesn't need a kit. There are tuning options, but not without some issues. So like most things in life it's not for everybody, so it depends on what you want.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: yeah the Northstar is great that it produces good power in stock form and doesn't need a kit. There are tuning options, but not without some issues. So like most things in life it's not for everybody, so it depends on what you want.

im with him, it depends on what you like. my eldo has 160k on the clock and still runs strong. i think N* is more fun to drive but the ls1 has more power potential. if it were me, i'd go with a N*, run 12's and be happy. but the major downside is if it ****s up(head gasket), you'll be better off replacing the engine than trying to fix it.

I would just take that oppertunity to throw in some cams, gaskets, springs, retainers and put it back together. Now you have 375hp from chrfab's mild cams and no valve float at higher than stock redline.

One other thing to consider is ease of maintenance. Every Northstar Fiero I've seen doesn't appear to have much room to get to anything in the engine bay. Not sure if it's an issue - maybe a Northstar Fiero owner can fill us in. But it would definitely be something to consider.

When all else fails - drive both and see which one puts a bigger smile on your face.

Actually, an Northstar looks like a pretty easy engine to do maintanence on. I have only seen a few Small block chevs in Fieros, but never looked closley at them. I have seen a few 4.9l engines, and stuff like plugs are probably about the same as an LSX engine. The northstar spark plugs go through the valve covers, which are on the top of the engine, and easy to get to. On a pushrod chev engine, they stick out the side of the head, and look alot harder to get to, probably simmilar to a 2.8L or worse. The Northstar was designed to be a FWD transverse engine, where a LSX's for the most part are for RWD. The Small block chevs I have seen in a Fiero have the engine very close to the pasenger side, so stuff like a water pump or alternator replacement or even belt replacement may be difficult, where on a northstar, there is lots of room. Then again, I have worked on a northstar, and only seen other V8's in Fieros.

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84 Fiero Sport Coupe #1192 :: 86 Fiero Base Coupe Quad 4 HO :: 1998 Dodge Neon EX 2Dr 2.0L DOHC Auto

I cut out my trunk almost completely which makes access much easier to pretty much everything. If I didn't do that, taking off my coilpacks might be a bit of a chore.

At this point I would look to the Future at the LS3 6.2 or the new 3.6 DI FI V6.

The LS3 shoulds us most fo whats available already for the LS2

The 3.6 would take some work but will be avaialble in 300+ HP soon.

Or we also have the 2.0 Ecotech Turbo in the new HHR and comong Cobalt. it is expected to be around 260 HP and ypu would drop some weight.

It's pretty obvious in my mind as to which is better. The N* fits between the strut towers. The SBC doesn't clear with the water pump.

This is a major factor in my opinion.

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: It's pretty obvious in my mind as to which is better. The N* fits between the strut towers. The SBC doesn't clear with the water pump. This is a major factor in my opinion.

So the N* is an easier swap than a LSx? I don't have any fab skills so I need the easiest way to go.

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I'll be watching.

-felix


'88 T-Top 5spd
1102 of 1252

[This message has been edited by FieroTheCat (edited 07-15-2007).]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought the N* required a bit of modification to the cradle to fit. I'd still do the N* and am planning on one in a 84 for a local owner.

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: So the N* is an easier swap than a LSx? I don't have any fab skills so I need the easiest way to go.

If this is the case then you might want to re-think what swap you wanna do. There are swaps out there that you can buy every part needed to swap the motor/trans in that is plug/play.

quote Originally posted by topher_time: Correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought the N* required a bit of modification to the cradle to fit.

It does.

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: So the N* is an easier swap than a LSx? I don't have any fab skills so I need the easiest way to go.

Actually, that's not the question you asked initially.

If you don't have any fabrication skills & you plan on building it yourself, neither one of the 2 engines is going to fill the bill. Unless you ket a kit that gives you step by step instructions on how to put it together.

But then someone already told you the NStar doesn't require an engine conversion kit.

What does a "Kit" for the V-8 include?

It includes a complete and dual exhaust system. But when you do the NStar you get to fabricate the exhaust system from scratch.
A "Kit" would include a larger radiator to handle the cooling of a larger engine, the NStar that they claim makes as much power as the LS1 is also going to make just as much heat (or more) so It'll also need a radiator.
A "Kit" for the Chevy engine would include the correct flywheel & clutch to make it work properly, The NStar will need it too & you'll have to get one that will work first time.
Any swap is going to need a bunch of fitting, fasteners, hoses, clamps, vacuum lines & directions. With a "Kit" you get the instructions that tell you exactly what to buy & how to put it together. Or you can buy all those little items as part of the "Kit". With the NStar, you'll need to do some research on exactly what you need then make countless trips to parts stores to run them all down.
The point is that some people use the term "Kits" like it's a negative thing. But in reality 75% of what you get in a "Kit" is stuff that you'll need no matter what engine you swap into the car. The other 25% of a "Kit" is the custom made parts, R&D & pre-fabbed parts that make your job putting it together a lot easier than starting a NStar swap without a "Kit" & just hoping that the person who's advising you on the Internet, sticks with you thru the whole project & knows what he's talking about.

Some said changing the spark plugs was easier on the NStar. Come on, let's get a little reality into this. I think the recommended plug change interval on the LS1 is 30K miles or more & I'm sure it's more than that on the NStar. So just how important is changing the plugs in the criteria for making a big decision like this?

Besides, I think the LSx plugs are easier to change. In this picture you can see the Red plug wires & see where the plugs are. And you can get to the 4 front plugs just as easy from underneath.



On the NStar the 4 plugs on the rear bank are pointed right at you after you remove the coil packs to get to them......



On the front side you get the change the plugs blind like you have to change them on a 2.8 V-6 Fiero. In this picture, there is no decklid on this car (no rear window either) & this is the forward valve cover, the plugs are down inside that valve cover.



I think that the person who was bragging on how mush easier the NStar plugs were, hadn't actually looked at an LSx for spark plug accessibility.

Someone talked about ease of maintenance & getting the Alternator off etc. Well it looks like the A/C compressor, Alternator, Starter & exhaust system are pretty easy to find in this picture.



Not so easy to find in this picture, There's the exhaust & the A/C compressor & I'm sure the alternator is up in there also. But where's the starter????



That's right, the starter is under the intake manifold.

They'd like you to believe that the NStar can be done without any major fabrication.

This is a Design One Assembled car & it's on an '87 engine cradle. If you know what a stock cradle looks like from the underside you'll see that a lot of fabrication has been done to this cradle.......













If you were fabricating a NStar swap today & the information you were getting from the forum wasn't any more accurate than the info you've got in the last 2 days, I'm thinging that you'd be wishing you'd have started with one of those "Kits".

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: Some said changing the spark plugs was easier on the NStar. Come on, let's get a little reality into this. I think the recommended plug change interval on the LS1 is 30K miles or more & I'm sure it's more than that on the NStar. So just how important is changing the plugs in the criteria for making a big decision like this? Besides, I think the LSx plugs are easier to change. In this picture you can see the Red plug wires & see where the plugs are. And you can get to the 4 front plugs just as easy from underneath. Archie

@ 100,000 miles for all Northstar engine. Better to get a Northstar with 6,000 miles or less....then you won't need to worry about no stinkin' spark plug wires nor in search of a starter, hehe.

Edit: I talked to Kevin at D1S and he said, "It should take about a hour to change out all 8-spark plugs." Also, on two of my Northstars I have a custom 4-core radiator from D1S, but on #015 chopper I have the stock radiator w/o any issues. I have a 4-core waiting in the wings once the stock one wants to start acting up.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 07-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: But then someone already told you the NStar doesn't require an engine conversion kit.

By kit I was refering to the parts you can't get at the local auto parts store, like the adapter plate, starter shims and all the other custom made pieces for the LSX. I can definitly say that if the N* did have a kit it would be hugely popular. Nothing on a N* install is beyond most people's ability to fabricate, but there are also a lot of custom made pieces such as mounts.

I can't speak for the earlier N* engines but I can show some install pics of my car.

This is simply all the modification that needs to be done to the cradle. Cut off part of the original crossmember and weld on a bigger better one. Add a gusset to the original crossbar for strength. The remaining part of the crossmember is used for one transmission mount.


Again, not sure about the earlier N* engines but taking off the 2000+ intake to access the starter is a 5 minute job, no jacking up the car to get to it. The TB to intake is just a rubber hose that you unclamp, unbolt the fuel rail and unbolt the intake manifold. Took me literally 5 minutes.


Starter is very accessable (not like it should ever fail but if it does its a 10 minute job to replace)


2000+ coilpacks look a bit different from the pics Archie is showing, but the bottom side bolts are a pain to remove when in the car. The N* is a very wide engine. Modern spark plugs are good for 100k miles, the abity to change them out easily is a bit over rated. Should only need to do it once or twice in the engines lifetime. (nobody should be tuning engines by examining the spark plugs)



My fiero has not overheated with the stock fiero radiator so far, but this is Canada, not too many 100* days so I can't give a valid opinion. The N* is definitly not an engine swap for a beginner. Like Archie said, its 100 trips to the local parts store to put together and there is a lot of fabrication. Something you will get satisfaction about is the fact you built it yourself from scratch, probably the same feeling Archie had when he built his first SBC fiero. Every N* swap is different, everyone has a different way of doing it.

Since this thread is about the engines and not the installs, its all personal preferance. The 2 engines will perform well in a fiero out of the box, both could get the fiero into the 12s stock. Both have good aftermarket, both get good mileage, both are reliable. The 2 engines have different personality, either you want a motor with more bottom end torque or a motor that likes to rev a little higher to make its power.

Only "advantage" I can see the N* having over the LS1 is the lower torque. A bit more fiero transmission friendly. There is also the option to buy an aluminum flywheel from CHRFAB with the N* bolt pattern already drilled in it. Less mass to shock the fiero driveline as well. So, lower torque and lower MOI means less fiero transmission snapping goodness.

As I said, I really like both engines. Neither engine is cheap or easy to install.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 07-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: If you don't have any fabrication skills & you plan on building it yourself, neither one of the 2 engines is going to fill the bill.

I think we can all agree on that.

If you can't cut metal and weld, or can't spend the money on someone who can, it would be best to install a V6 that drops in place with no modifications.

quote Originally posted by Archie: That's right, the starter is under the intake manifold.

Where it's safe from road grime and exhaust heat, and will never need to be replaced.

Well, I've had the N* in an 86GT and while it was fun, it just wasn't as fast as I thought it'd be. Granted, it was an AT, but my 5spd 3800SC (S1) feels much faster, albeit with lots less hp.

Given the choice b/t the 2, I'd go with an LSx and an Archie kit

As far as changing the spark plugs on a N* it takes 15 minutes to do all 8 . I know because I did it and timed it to see just how long it takes. I am Starting an LT1 swap now with one of those Kits so I will let you know which is the easier swap. Also with the N* there is no cutting away of the car body/frame.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I'll try, but it's all second hand information, so I may get it wrong... But the Northstar Caddy ECM is just barely cracked. You can bolt in a Northstar and get it to run, but that's about it. Like in the early days of the 4.9 people were either driving them around in limp mode, using an ECM from another car, or slapping a Carb on them. The Northstar is not that bad, but if you want to make any major changes to the engine like a cam, heads, timing, or add a power adder like a turbo or super charger, it will be very difficult to get it to run right and tune it. If you go with an aftermarket ECM, now you have issues with the auto transmission. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble unless you live in California and want a stock V8, or you can't live without the thought of an overhead cam V8. On the other hand the LS1 has tons of after market support across the boards.

I agree. More support in the LS1 world.

As for after-market alternatives for the Northstar....I've only seen two companies outside our Fiero world.

Here's a company that is over looked: http://www.mechtech-ms.com/hps.php

and you already know about http://www.chrfab.com/index.htm Both companies are located in CA, hehe. If you have deep pockets for after market bolt on goodies and live outside CA...sky's the limit.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 07-16-2007).]