You're using the stock PCM though. They haven't been hacked. It's hard to compare an LS1 with a hacked, fully tunable, fully customizable PCM (that's happy by itself put in other cars) with a stock N* PCM that is crapping itself with codes because it's not in a caddy talking to 4 other computers.

The ECM I use does not control a transmission like the stock N* PCM, but it is customizable and tunable. I have a basically stock northstar (2.5" exhaust, two cats, two full size mufflers - basically same setup as stock.... and a cone air filter.) I put down 256whp through a 4t80e. Someone on caddyforums did a negative hp dyno to find out how much power the transmission is using, and came up with 86hp. The baseline dyno readings were 211-215hp on the car, a stock "300hp" STS (211+86=297hp - right on the money). That is a 29% loss!

Using those numbers, I have a 341-360 crank hp N* depending on whether you use straight hp or % loss. True answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I won't know for sure until I get it back on the dyno to try this "negative hp" test. Not bad for just an intake and some tuning.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I prefer the LSx engines. None of these swaps is easy even with a kit. But I bet going with the LS kit you will get a more complete kit and more support. Now on the getrags I still don't know why many people still don't know that it is torque that has the potential to break a transmission and not HP. Case above the lower HP mentioned (hypotetical) engine will probably break it easier than the 30+HP N* just because it puts much more toque. I don't know you but many trans I have seen braking on hard launch it is not at high RPM (near peak HP) but at or near peak torque RPM (much lower RPM).

Actually, in the failures that have been posted on the forum, the prevailing factor isn't engine torque, but rather SHOCK LOAD stemming from dumping the clutch with a lot of torque and a flywheel that's WAY too heavy.

How much does the flywheel weigh?

quote Originally posted by Will: Actually, in the failures that have been posted on the forum, the prevailing factor isn't engine torque, but rather SHOCK LOAD stemming from dumping the clutch with a lot of torque and a flywheel that's WAY too heavy.

Actually I think the prevailing factor is the condition of the transmission. A 150K mile transmission vs a fresh rebuild makes more of a difference because of bearing wear & general transmission abuse & care (or lack of care) over the years. Yes Torque has something to do with it but the "slop" in the gears of a worn out transmission & things like worn out differential bearings will make the initial shock load take out a worn out transmission long before it'll take out a freshly rebuilt or newer transmission.

On my web site there are comments about how much engine we've put to some of the transmissions. But that was written 10 years ago when all Fiero transmissions were 10 years newer than they are now. Back in those days at least 70% of the swaps I (& my customers) did were Isuzus & they held up fine.... I know, I know, I know............ no one's gonna believe that today. But check it out......... ask around, a lot of people were at Bob Steigers show/open house in 2001 or 2002. I had my Red Finale there with a SBC & an Isuzu in it & I gave at least 30 people rides. Each one of those rides was 3 runs of 0 to 100 mph then brake to 0 (I had the big brakes on it too). That transmission & the car held up fine & I drove 120 miles home that same day. I drove it at least 6 more months before I sold it. Quite a few current FPP members were there that day including Oreif, DL10 & many NIFE members.

Additionally, about a year ago I was visiting JPT transmissions up in MI, & I found a NEW Fiero Isuzu transmission. It had all the correct Fiero shift levers & was coated in the now Yellowed protective film with the original packing plugs etc. I brought that transmission home with me & someday soon I'll put it into a Fiero with a SBC & you'll see that a good condition transmission will take a lot more than they were originally rated for.

I think that in most of the failures that have been documented here on the Forum, the person documenting the failure didn't document or didn't know the actual transmission condition prior to the failure. Just because it's a Getrag, doesn't mean that it's in good condition to start out with.

In other words, I think a transmission in a car that has had 8 owners & 200000 miles with little maintenance & a few abusive owners is much more likely to fail than a transmission like the Getrag that was in my 43000 mile Formula when I got it.

The condition of the transmission at the time of an engine swap has a lot more to do with a failure rate than wether the engine being used has a torque rating of 280 vs 330 FtLb.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 07-22-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You're using the stock PCM though. They haven't been hacked. It's hard to compare an LS1 with a hacked, fully tunable, fully customizable PCM (that's happy by itself put in other cars) with a stock N* PCM that is crapping itself with codes because it's not in a caddy talking to 4 other computers. The ECM I use does not control a transmission like the stock N* PCM, but it is customizable and tunable. I have a basically stock northstar (2.5" exhaust, two cats, two full size mufflers - basically same setup as stock.... and a cone air filter.) I put down 256whp through a 4t80e. Someone on caddyforums did a negative hp dyno to find out how much power the transmission is using, and came up with 86hp. The baseline dyno readings were 211-215hp on the car, a stock "300hp" STS (211+86=297hp - right on the money). That is a 29% loss! Using those numbers, I have a 341-360 crank hp N* depending on whether you use straight hp or % loss. lTrue answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I won't know for sure until I get it back on the dyno to try this "negative hp" test. Not bad for just an intake and some tuning.

So, Ryan what can you provide for a N* swap? PCM? Harness? Modified cradle? What ???

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I'll be watching.

-felix


'88 T-Top 5spd
1102 of 1252

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: So, Ryan what can you provide for a N* swap? PCM? Harness? Modified cradle? What ???

I can provide an ECM with tuning software and wiring diagrams. I have built harnesses in the past. I don't like to build them because they take so long...

Buy Ryans PCM & software & Diagrams , Send me your N * wireing harnes , your fiero wireing harness Your Fiero cradle . I will modifie your harness & cradle for 1,500 dollars. You pay shipping both ways . This is for a 4T80 trans .

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I have personally killed a NOS fiero muncie 4speed third gear with a 240HP motor, It is NOT POSSIBLE to run with any 4speed muncie on a motor with more than 240 crank HP, and you say that its very easy to do it with your "300 hp" v8's. My guess is the hp rating is a bit exaggerated, or serious work has been done to your 4speeds. I'll just assume that the HP numbers are exaggerated after seeing your famous "v8 dyno video" puffing more unburnt fuel than an oil refinery.

My car has had a ZZ4 V-8 in it for almost 3 years now. It has a stock 1986 Muncie 4-spd with a SPEC III clutch.
The car was dyno'd at 309 rwhp and 349 rwt. The engine was rated by GM at 355hp/405 torque
Runs the 1/4 mile in 12.3 seconds. (It has had a total of 8 runs, 12.34@111mph being the best)
It has been run at least 22+ times on various road courses (including yesterday!)

Abuse will kill any trans regardless which engine is used. If you have killed one and worn out two others, You need to learn how to use a manual transaxle.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

quote Originally posted by Archie: Actually I think the prevailing factor is the condition of the transmission. A 150K mile transmission vs a fresh rebuild makes more of a difference because of bearing wear & general transmission abuse & care (or lack of care) over the years. Yes Torque has something to do with it but the "slop" in the gears of a worn out transmission & things like worn out differential bearings will make the initial shock load take out a worn out transmission long before it'll take out a freshly rebuilt or newer transmission.

I know about the difference between a worn transmission and a fresh one. I found that out when I installed the box in my Northstar and found that 3rd gear synchro was basically non-existent. Beretta drivers think they've got champ cars, I guess. So I rebuilt it myself.

Buuuut... When the case splits around the VSS boss and the right diff bearing boss tries to leave the case, that's a failure due to loading, not due to wear. The right diff bearing takes almost none of the radial load but takes ALL of the end thrust from the final drive mesh. When that boss is broken out of the case, it's because the end thrust exceeded the tensile strength of the case. That happens when the transmission is subjected to too much torque, period. Now fatigue of the aluminum over the years and from multiple shock loading incidents may play a part in the readiness of that part to break in a particular incident, but the primary enabling factor is excessive shock loading.

I do think it's impressive that the transmission would split the case in that way rather than ripping teeth off gears.

The Isuzu's habit of shedding teeth from 2nd gear can come from fatigue cracking in the teeth, as most of those failures seem to happen when the transmission is NOT loaded. I've thought it would be interesting to use Japanese market gears in an Isuzu in a Fiero and see how long they lasted.

So am I wrong in assuming that you haven't developed the capability of rebuilding these transmissions in-house?

quote Originally posted by Archie: On my web site there are comments about how much engine we've put to some of the transmissions. But that was written 10 years ago when all Fiero transmissions were 10 years newer than they are now. Back in those days at least 70% of the swaps I (& my customers) did were Isuzus & they held up fine....

Maybe its time to update your webpage and get rid of some of the comments. I mean it is 10 years later and alot changes in 10 years.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Maybe its time to update your webpage and get rid of some of the comments. I mean it is 10 years later and alot changes in 10 years.

It's in process right now, I'm told by my new webmaster that I'll be ready to be put up for testing in the next few days.

Archie

ok all this talk about transmissions, and i still dont know which one to use.. someone tell me the best tranny available for a ls swap.. dont care about price, i want quality...

quote Originally posted by advancedwiringsystem: ok all this talk about transmissions, and i still dont know which one to use.. someone tell me the best tranny available for a ls swap.. dont care about price, i want quality...

I'd say a real low mileage or rebuilt Getrag 5 speed.

Or the G6 6 speed ~~~~~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr0CLuB-EbI

what size engine is that in the video??? Archie if you were building for yourself would you use rebuilt getrag or g6???

If you want a stick shift with any high horsepower V8 (Northstar, Chevy or whatever), I'd recommend the G6 6-speed. It's a pretty beefy unit.
If you want an automatic, I'd go with a 4t65e. It's got more aftermarket than the 4t80e and you can build a 65 to be stronger than the 80. And it weighs about 100 lbs less than the 80.

quote Originally posted by advancedwiringsystem: what size engine is that in the video??? Archie if you were building for yourself would you use rebuilt getrag or g6???

It's a 350 Chev. Right now my V-8 cars are G6 6 speeds. About 70% of the cars I've built in the last year have been 6 speeds.

I have no doubt that a good solid rebuild to a Getrag 5 speed will do fine behind a LS swap. However, It's not cheap to get one rebuilt & you don't really know if the builder did a good job rebuilding it until you get it in the car.

I have a whole area in the shop with used transmissions sitting on the floor (about 25 of them) that, In my mind, were not in good enough condition to be rebuildable. That's why I decided to get into the 6 speeds. If you could buy a new Fiero configured Getrag brand new now days, I very likely wouldn't have got into the 6 speed. However, a lot of the cars I build are using new engines, new suspensions, new brakes, new exhaust & a lot of other new parts, it's kind of hard to justify putting in a 20 year old transmission. I'm not really into automatics, a Sports Car (which is what we all think a Fiero is) should be a stick shift to be as much fun as it should be. One of my customers, who is also on this Forum gave me advance information the configuration of the 6 speed before it was released in the G6. I managed to find one of the G6 prototype cars that had been wrecked in testing by GM & I bought the driveline out of it. So I was able to actually have an operational G6 6 speed in my Finale roadster before you could go into a Pontiac Showroom & but a 2006 G6 6 speed car.

Hope that helps.

Archie

hey archie you emailed me about your ls based kits. In the email you ask if i was going to turn the intake manifold around, does that have to be done?

quote Originally posted by advancedwiringsystem: hey archie you emailed me about your ls based kits. In the email you ask if i was going to turn the intake manifold around, does that have to be done?

I'd say yes. On the LS1 Throttle body that sues a cable the cable attaches on the right side of the TB & that could interfere with the Shock tower. On most of the the fly by wire TB's the TB motor is on that side. Turning around the intake has so many advantages, that I can't think of a reason not to do it.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: It's in process right now, I'm told by my new webmaster that I'll be ready to be put up for testing in the next few days. Archie

Good Deal!!!!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: If you want a stick shift with any high horsepower V8 (Northstar, Chevy or whatever), I'd recommend the G6 6-speed. It's a pretty beefy unit. If you want an automatic, I'd go with a 4t65e. It's got more aftermarket than the 4t80e and you can build a 65 to be stronger than the 80. And it weighs about 100 lbs less than the 80.

Hey, Formula88; I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Are there any shift kits for the Northstar's 4t80 auto tranny? I'd like mine to shift harder and later on down the road, I'd like to install paddles ( I know...I'm lazy, hehe). I would imagine there is, but I'm too busy with other items.

I know there's paddle shift that a guy here in CA is using on his 3800SC auto, but I don't know the details of how good it's working in his car. In my case, it's a option now since my car has passed the inspection. I'd rather let my fingers do the shifting. Besides, if it's good enough for the Ferrari guys, it's good enough for my chopper.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Hey, Formula88; I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Are there any shift kits for the Northstar's 4t80 auto tranny? I'd like mine to shift harder and later on down the road, I'd like to install paddles ( I know...I'm lazy, hehe). I would imagine there is, but I'm too busy with other items. I know there's paddle shift that a guy here in CA is using on his 3800SC auto, but I don't know the details of how good it's working in his car. In my case, it's a option now since my car has passed the inspection. I'd rather let my fingers do the shifting. Besides, if it's good enough for the Ferrari guys, it's good enough for my chopper.

No to my knowledge. I know places that specialize in the 3800SC sometimes offer stuff for the 65. Even CHR Fab doesn't list anything for the 4t80e. They make stuff to convert the N* to RWD. A quick check on Summit didn't find anything either.

I know GM has built a 4t65e to hold around 1000 HP in a drag race Ecotec. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. The lack of aftermarket parts for the stock N* tranny is the main reason I'd use something else.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Hey, Formula88; I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Are there any shift kits for the Northstar's 4t80 auto tranny? I'd like mine to shift harder and later on down the road, I'd like to install paddles ( I know...I'm lazy, hehe). I would imagine there is, but I'm too busy with other items. I know there's paddle shift that a guy here in CA is using on his 3800SC auto, but I don't know the details of how good it's working in his car. In my case, it's a option now since my car has passed the inspection. I'd rather let my fingers do the shifting. Besides, if it's good enough for the Ferrari guys, it's good enough for my chopper.

I've got both the 80e and paddle shifters.... works great. It would be interesting to find out if the PCS unit lets you downshift with the overrun clutch engaged or not. You might have to disable the gear selector switch so it doesn't know what gear your shifter is in for it to work like a real manual. There is a shift kit for the 4t80e, you'd want to talk to AJxctman about getting one.

WWW.powertraincontrolsolutions.com

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I've got both the 80e and paddle shifters.... works great. It would be interesting to find out if the PCS unit lets you downshift with the overrun clutch engaged or not. You might have to disable the gear selector switch so it doesn't know what gear your shifter is in for it to work like a real manual. There is a shift kit for the 4t80e, you'd want to talk to AJxctman about getting one.

quote Originally posted by seabee1678: i have been running one John Goebels [Goebel Racing Transmissions] sense 1999 in my Toyota pickup truck .383 stroker with 700R4 manual shift ,no govner,no TV valve,constant pressure [230 lbs].Have to shift down to first every time you come to a stop. Stay in 4 TH lock up un til you shift to 3 RD. No cluch could stand the kind of punishment this SOB has gone through. John makes one for the 4E65 also . So if you want to shift gears and have the best of both worlds an auto matic is the way to go. The transmission I have connected to my LS1 going in my Fiero is a 4T65E HD. It is highly modified . GRT cuts the toruke converters open , welds the fins up, sets the stall ,temkin bearings, kelvar clutches, & etc. As far as this 4T65E HD will hold is up to test.I have alot of $$$$ in it.

Thanks guys. I'm saving the links.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I can provide an ECM with tuning software and wiring diagrams. I have built harnesses in the past. I don't like to build them because they take so long...

Ryan, will your electronics work with a Getrag?

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I'll be watching.

-felix


'88 T-Top 5spd
1102 of 1252

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: Ryan, will your electronics work with a Getrag?

Everyone who's bought one has a manual... getrag & isuzu... I'm the only one with an "auto" (semiauto ).

Who wants one when their is not one that will hold up to torque

quote Originally posted by seabee1678: Who wants one when their is not one that will hold up to torque

Uhhh, have you been reading the last few pages? A getrag in good condition should handle a N* just fine. An auto just doesn't suit the motor in my opinion.

My getrag has survived WOT runs, no failure yet. 2003 N*.

quote Originally posted by Will: Actually, in the failures that have been posted on the forum, the prevailing factor isn't engine torque, but rather SHOCK LOAD stemming from dumping the clutch with a lot of torque and a flywheel that's WAY too heavy.

What do you think causes that shock load?? But you said it yourself.

Not sure what flywheel options you have with a sbc but you can get an aluminum fiero flywheel. That will reduce shock load on the transmission, less MOI.

Best setup I've heard of is using a flexplate with a small diameter twin disc clutch bolted to it. Super light weight and much smaller MOI.

Its the stored energy in a heavy flywheel that will destroy a transmission. Most failures I've heard of are usually off a launch or between shifts. Both are going to shock the transmission with flywheel energy. How many have failed when loaded in gear accelerating? Probably few if any at all.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Hey, Formula88; I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Are there any shift kits for the Northstar's 4t80 auto tranny? I'd like mine to shift harder and later on down the road, I'd like to install paddles ( I know...I'm lazy, hehe). I would imagine there is, but I'm too busy with other items. I know there's paddle shift that a guy here in CA is using on his 3800SC auto, but I don't know the details of how good it's working in his car. In my case, it's a option now since my car has passed the inspection. I'd rather let my fingers do the shifting. Besides, if it's good enough for the Ferrari guys, it's good enough for my chopper.

Have you seen this paddle shifter kit?

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Uhhh, have you been reading the last few pages? A getrag in good condition should handle a N* just fine. An auto just doesn't suit the motor in my opinion. My getrag has survived WOT runs, no failure yet. 2003 N*.

My Getrag has 108k miles on it. That's not too bad - is it?

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I'll be watching.

-felix


'88 T-Top 5spd
1102 of 1252

quote Originally posted by FieroTheCat: My Getrag has 108k miles on it. That's not too bad - is it?

I wouldn't run a V8 or high torque engine with that unit without an overhaul. 100K is about the limit.

quote Originally posted by Will: I wouldn't run a V8 or high torque engine with that unit without an overhaul. 100K is about the limit.

Would I want to overhaul my 108k mile Getrag or get a 6 spd? What is the price of a 6 spd anyway?

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I'll be watching.

-felix


'88 T-Top 5spd
1102 of 1252

Don't even know if the 6 speed will work with the N*? Need to see the bellhousing to find out what needs to be clearanced for the starter. Need to see if the transmission will fit with the big N* water manifold. You would be venturing into uncharted territory with a 6 speed Northstar.

Overhauling a Getrag 5 speed will definitly be cheaper and easier.

The best thing about the 6 speed is that you can get a new one or low miles one very cheap. You can't get that on a Getrag. The 6-speed overal swap is not cheap but I think it is a great investment if you want to keep your Fiero for ever. I installed a new one in mine and just bought another brand new spare for $500. Try that with the others.

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Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ