Since the question asks if the 4cyl could accelerate the load as fast going up a hill, I imagine both engines will be at WOT.

You can build a turbo 4cyl to have whatever power curve you want. An 2.4L srt engine has quite a bit of torque because it has a long stoke for a 4cyl engine. A 1.8L Honda motor has way different characteristics.

quote Originally posted by bonzo: This is Bonzo Sr. The driver of the Ram. [snip] The bridge I was pulling this load up was 2 miles long and 175 feet high. That's about a 4% grade. I didn't floor the truck because some of the cargo was loved ones. I'm not sure what it would have done if I gave it all it had. Bonzo Sr.

Just thought I'd allow the driver to speak for himself.

Carry on....

quote Originally posted by bonzo: My Dad has a Dodge Ram with a Hemi that has 350 hp and 375 torque. Last Sat. were were towing a 19ft boat bothe the truck and boat had full tanks of gas. We had 5 people in the truck plus coolers etc. Fully loaded. We came up to a very steep and long bridge doing about 55 mph. My dad said lets see what this Hemi will do. When we were at the top of the bridge we had sped up to 70 mph. He said now let me see one of those 4 bangers do that. I didn't know what to say. Could a 4 banger boasting that much hp and torque do that and if not why?

Read it, I assumed it was WOT. Original question didn't say the throttle was feathered.

I have a modified turbo 4 banger in my buggy that i take to the dunes, to get up some of the hills i really have to get the boost up. But just because I have my RPMs up and boost up doesnt mean that they will stay up, it usually bogs down alot unless i get a good running start; and downshifting just makes for a nice trip back down the hill and another try back up. But then i see big V8 jeeps out there that can pretty much idle up the hill and the jeeps are even heavier.

i say the hemi no doubt, there are factors that you guys are probably overlooking

quote Originally posted by EightBall: I have a modified turbo 4 banger in my buggy that i take to the dunes, to get up some of the hills i really have to get the boost up. But just because I have my RPMs up and boost up doesnt mean that they will stay up, it usually bogs down alot unless i get a good running start; and downshifting just makes for a nice trip back down the hill and another try back up. But then i see big V8 jeeps out there that can pretty much idle up the hill and the jeeps are even heavier. i say the hemi no doubt, there are factors that you guys are probably overlooking

Uhhh.... Your buggy probibly has alot less power than the V-8 jeeps for one. Plus, a turbo has to be suited to a motor. If you loose boost or bog the engine, your turbo is probibly too big for the engine. You shoud have full boost in your usable powerband. Having to physically spool a turbo before climbing definitly sounds like its too big or you have a wicked boost leak.

We're saying a 400hp 4cyl is more powerful than a 350hp hemi, and it is. You don't know your engine is more powerful than their jeep engines.

quote Originally posted by EightBall: I have a modified turbo 4 banger in my buggy that i take to the dunes, to get up some of the hills i really have to get the boost up. But just because I have my RPMs up and boost up doesnt mean that they will stay up, it usually bogs down alot unless i get a good running start; and downshifting just makes for a nice trip back down the hill and another try back up. But then i see big V8 jeeps out there that can pretty much idle up the hill and the jeeps are even heavier. i say the hemi no doubt, there are factors that you guys are probably overlooking

Eightball. Just leave this one alone. We are, well most of us, have just agreed to let Crzyone play this one out, there is no way to win with him. Countless people in here have shown him why people uses larger engines. He just wants to make sure that his point is number one and no matter what anyone else wants to say matters.

However a turbocharged dune buggy must be cool. Got pics?

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 08-13-2005).]

I'm no rocket scientist, but...

400>350
450>400
500>450

See a pattern?

You are really hung up on the number of cylinders...

There is no way a 400hp V-8 can pull a load better than a 350hp V-12, think of all the extra wear on the V-8!!

quote Originally posted by crzyone:

figured i'd toss this in for comparison

Comparing a MODIFIED engine to a STOCK engine.

Welcome to

[This message has been edited by DelawareFiero (edited 08-15-2005).]

quote Originally posted by crzyone: I'm no rocket scientist, but... 400>350 450>400 500>450 See a pattern? You are really hung up on the number of cylinders... There is no way a 400hp V-8 can pull a load better than a 350hp V-12, think of all the extra wear on the V-8!!

It seems everyone has forgotten the original point, which is easily concluded by the above mathematical statements, no matter the cylinders, assuming going up a hill at WOT with correct gearing.

Its quite simple really, and the srt engine has a very nice power curve. Not like you need to be at 10,000rpm to make power.

Ok, here is my uneducated take on this. People are saying that for towing power a 4cyl can do it well as an 8cyl. For how long do you think?

Sure the srt-4 neon motor can make 400hp and if geared properly in a truck could pull as well or better than the 350hp V8. I dont think the motor would last for SH!T.

No 4cyl on the market was engineered for long term abuse under constant heavy torque loads. We all know how well they do in 2500lb rollerskate chassis.

If they are so bulletproof with HP up to 1000hp 4 banger. why arent they using them in tanks, motorhomes, Bulldozers or 18 wheelers?

they CAN make the same power.... but it all comes down to what the motor was engineered for. 4bangers are simply not strong enough, not DESIGNED, to pull heavy loads. They were not engineered to do it, period! Just like the 2.5 iron duke was not engineered to make more than 93hp. You have to look at the motors purpose when it was created.

I want to see someone actually make a 400hp 4banger, put it in a fullsized truck (gear it to perfection), and regularly haul heavy loads in the sum of at least 100,000 miles, which is moderate considering you can put closer to 200,000 miles on a solid V8 fullsized truck that has been regularly maintained.

[This message has been edited by Roland (edited 08-15-2005).]

You've just stated exactly what I have been saying for pages.

A 400hp 4cyl can pull the load just as well, but the durability isn't there. This is why they are not offered in heavy duty trucks.

Turbocharged and supercharged engines are usually built heavier from the factory. I think a 3800sc would make a pretty wicked truck engine, they are very sturdy, could easily get a reliable 300hp out of them.

well yeah i have less power but i have to rev the crap out of my motor and they just barely try so it kinda puts it in the same ballpark

my turbo was made for the motor i have it on, its actually an early generation srt-4 motor; and i didnt say i had any problems with spooling but when your going up a hill and losing rpms the turbo isnt going to be pumping as hard, so then you have less hp and it bogs even more and it just keep going on until your engine dies unless you push the clutch in and get the revs up and dump it.

thats why you cant rely on a turbo like you can a V8, the curve on a beefy 8 gets up quick and stays there and on a turbo 4 is takes alot of rpms. you might have the same hp and torque between the two motors but what really matters is at what rpms you make your high torque an hp. Torque is what you need in pulling anyway, take a look at diesel motors, one could have 100hp but have 600ft/lbs of torque and it could outpull a ricer with 400hp and only 400ft/lbs.

I wont argue beyond this because i agree with Capt Fiero

but for those pics of my buggy, here ya go... note: in the one with my dad jumping it those legs are the guy's in the background standing next to his buggy (people have asked me if that would hurt having your legs hang out the bottom of the buggy lol) despite what it looks like my buggy is getting about 7ft of air there!

[This message has been edited by EightBall (edited 08-16-2005).]

Thats a sweet little buggy you have there!

Are you running an intercooler at all?

quote Originally posted by EightBall: thats why you cant rely on a turbo like you can a V8, the curve on a beefy 8 gets up quick and stays there and on a turbo 4 is takes alot of rpms. you might have the same hp and torque between the two motors but what really matters is at what rpms you make your high torque an hp. Torque is what you need in pulling anyway, take a look at diesel motors, one could have 100hp but have 600ft/lbs of torque and it could outpull a ricer with 400hp and only 400ft/lbs.

nice bugyg - but you are making huge generalizations too - just because it has 8 cyls doesn't mean its got the powerband you imagine - powerband varies a lot even among v8's of the same size
from what you describe with your car it sounds like it wasn't built up properly,

you say you have to rev the crap out of a 4cyl to get power.. lot at the two dynos posted - the srt has its peak hp lower than the hemi and carries it longer.

I think nuclear powered rocket ships driven by african barking toads would be the best thing to haul. This thread is passed dead horse...

Geez, is this thing still going?

ya, kinda like the Iraq war

quote Originally posted by Roland: ya, kinda like the Iraq war

?!

quote Originally posted by Roland: ya, kinda like the Iraq war

Exactly.....................and the Weapons of Mass Destruction is the 4 Banger with excellent tow capacity (compared to the vehicle in question of original post), that can't be found. It's been interesting to see some members "twist" this subject matter around, make false un-reasonable statements, and contradict themselves. Kinda reminds of taking all common sense, and throwing it out the window.

LOL

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Exactly.....................and the Weapons of Mass Destruction is the 4 Banger with excellent tow capacity (compared to the vehicle in question of original post), that can't be found. It's been interesting to see some members "twist" this subject matter around, make false un-reasonable statements, and contradict themselves. Kinda reminds of taking all common sense, and throwing it out the window. LOL

400>350 .. that should be the end all be all of the conversation. a 4 banger with more torque and more hp, will pull it faster up a hill. finished.

Put that Four Banger in your Mustang Johnny!!!

Cali, I know you like V-8s but you have to agree with the numbers....

It's not a question about the numbers you guy's turned this thread into, it's the intent question originally posted, which you guys seem to take as let's make something unique to do the job. Name just one 4 cyclinder vehicle out their on the road that will pull as good, loaded the exact same way, and as long (lifetime durability) as the vehicle mentioned in the first post. As I said earlier, just because something can be done, it doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do.

I've built a couple 4 Cyclinder High Horse Bangers, one Turbo, one natural, and both needed rebuilds before they hit the 20,000 mile mark. They're nice while they run, but it don't last long.

Out.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-16-2005).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Put that Four Banger in your Mustang Johnny!!!

Price of gas I was considering a 4cylinder diesel.. It'll be unique.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: It's not a question about the numbers you guy's turned this thread into, it's the intent question originally posted, which you guys seem to take as let's make something unique to do the job. Name just one 4 cyclinder vehicle out their on the road that will pull as good, loaded the exact same way, and as long (lifetime durability) as the vehicle mentioned in the first post. As I said earlier, just because something can be done, it doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do. I've built a couple 4 Cyclinder High Horse Bangers, one Turbo, one natural, and both needed rebuilds before they hit the 20,000 mile mark. They're nice while they run, but it don't last long. Out.

What's funny is all the V8 guys saying how the 4 cylinder guys have twisted around and turned the numbers to our liking.

When just about every V8 guy is talking about durability, which was never even part of the original question. Sounds like V8 guys might be contradicting themselves and twisting things around too.

Name one vehicle out there that would pull as good huh? I'm almost positive that that's not what the original question asked, I'm pretty sure that it asked if a 4 cylinder could do it. Not if there was one that was. That also sounds like twisting the original statement around a bit to make the V8 argument stronger.

I think what the fact is, and the argument is. If you could build a tranny with infinite ratio's a 4 popper could do it as well as a V8, however.

I have not seen a single 400hp tunner car ever built for towing.

Trucks are built for towing.

If you take a regular 400hp Tuner motor and slap it into the exact truck with the exact same trans as that the truck was using, it will not tow as well as it having the lower horsepower higher torque motor.

If you try it in a Civic it will spin the front tires to all hell.

The fact of the matter is that 400hp tuner cars are not built to pull trailers. They are not geared to pull trailers.

I will admit IF you could design a perfect tranny to keep it in the perfect rpm curve a 400hp 4 popper could outpull a lesser power 350hp V8.

However if you go to any tuner car show, and find a 400hp even a 400hp all wheel drive car, like a Subaru, and set up a drag race, 1/4 mile race, 350hp Truck hauling 4000lbs vs a 400hp Subaru hauling 4000lbs the Truck will win.

I know I know I said I would not get back into this topic but ah what the hell I was feeling spunky today. I just got back from wiping the streets of some Ricers in my tractor motor 4.9, 5spd. Eh so I short shift and keep the power between 3400 and 4600 it still goes like I want it to.

------------------
85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 08-18-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: (.......................................)

What is it about my statement posted above: " Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do ! " , that you don't understand????

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: I think what the fact is, and the argument is. If you could build a tranny with infinite ratio's a 4 popper could do it as well as a V8, however. I have not seen a single 400hp tunner car ever built for towing. Trucks are built for towing. If you take a regular 400hp Tuner motor and slap it into the exact truck with the exact same trans as that the truck was using, it will not tow as well as it having the lower horsepower higher torque motor. If you try it in a Civic it will spin the front tires to all hell. The fact of the matter is that 400hp tuner cars are not built to pull trailers. They are not geared to pull trailers. I will admit IF you could design a perfect tranny to keep it in the perfect rpm curve a 400hp 4 popper could outpull a lesser power 350hp V8. However if you go to any tuner car show, and find a 400hp even a 400hp all wheel drive car, like a Subaru, and set up a drag race, 1/4 mile race, 350hp Truck hauling 4000lbs vs a 400hp Subaru hauling 4000lbs the Truck will win. I know I know I said I would not get back into this topic but ah what the hell I was feeling spunky today. I just got back from wiping the streets of some Ricers in my tractor motor 4.9, 5spd. Eh so I short shift and keep the power between 3400 and 4600 it still goes like I want it to.

I would like to be the first to congratulate you that you finally see the point that we were making. That's dead on what we've been saying this whole thread (or at least myself, and I believe cryzone). I'm glad we've finally reached an agreement.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: What is it about my statement posted above: " Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do ! " , that you don't understand????

I understand it just fine, but this argument wasn't about the practicality of the 4 cylinder, it was about the hypothetical possiblity that it could happen, under any and every correct circumstance.

quote Originally posted by bonzo: He said now let me see one of those 4 bangers do that.

For lack of an intelligent comeback…I don't like your dad. =P

Four-bangers have their place, as do V8s. A four-banger's place is typically not uphill in a truck towing a…anything.

[This message has been edited by timwdegner (edited 11-17-2005).]

Just thought this video was appropriate given the discussion:
Little car tows trailer