I'm glad some people have rational thought in this thread.

Removed by choice. I am tired of arguing this thread.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 08-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Untill you have an infinatly variable transmission that keeps the engine at its peak output ALL the time... then powerband does matter. My NA Quad 4 puts out just a hair less power then a 4.9, and if both had the perfect transmission, the 4.9 would edge the quad 4 out. (barring weight differences) Both are "high compression" motors, the 4.9 is well more then twice the engine. The 4.9 is FAR more drivable due to the fairly flat torque curve down low, and it "feels" faster, and it is a V8, but the Quad 4 can just about keep up, if the gearing is done just right. And that's without any boost. The Q4 still gets better gas mileage (given the 4.9 does get really good mileage for a V8...) and overall is more efficient. Now, lets just say you took the 4.9 and slapped the Quad 4's heads on it, and cranked the compression to match. You would be left with an engine that is really peaky with the horsepower, somewhere just above around 360 horses at the wheels. the torque would go up more, at about 310 at the wheels. Up from 170 hp, and 260 tq at the wheels. So what does this mean? Horsepower is an ideal measurement of power only in an ideal world. (automotivly speaking) Torque is a nice measurement of force, but force does not necessarily mean power. Sure a 4 cyl can be better, faster and more efficient then an 8, but if the 8 is built exactly the same as the 4, then its twice as powerful and half as economical, but still as efficient. So, there IS no replacment for displacment. Number of cylenders does not mean displacment, There are tiny 8 cyl's out there and HUGE 4 cyls. If you want more power, get a bigger motor, and apply the same technology as you did your little motor. If you boost a 4 and think you're onto something, try boosting the 8 and see how it does. Power band always applies, unless you have an infinatly variable transmission, that is also efficient. If you can make X amount of power only at 10,000 RPMs... Untill you can keep it at or near 10,000 RPM's for the entire quarter mile, it doesn't mean much. Boost can effectivly "multiply the displacment" of ANY engine, not JUST your 4 cyl. Does that sum it up?

I lost you at "infinatly"... Can you tell it to me slower and clearer?

Thats what makes Ferrari's sound so good.

Someone want to tell me why the fastest cars in the world on the drag track are all big V8's and not 4cyls

because 16,000hp V-16s are against the rules.

Whew!!!

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Someone want to tell me why the fastest cars in the world on the drag track are all big V8's and not 4cyls

You are aware that GM uses a production block AND head (though prepped for racing) ecotec four cylinder 2.0 Liter engine that run 8.6's in the 1/4 right? (yeah, that's 122 cubic inches).

How many production block and head V8's do you know of that run that? O sure, you could get a lingefelter twin-turbo 427, but that's still 7.0 liters of displacement, and those run somewhere in the mid 9's.

Yep they have done some interesting things with "Race Prepped" ecotech motors. I am very impressed with that. I have also seen 1300hp Twin Turbo Corvette V8's. Hell bigger is better, someone just posted a video of a Viper V10 making 2000hp on a chassie Dyno. Yes Two Thousand Horsepower. 4 poppers can be made to make power, but V8's can be made to make more. Back to what I stated and no stipulation on production or note. Bigger Motors make Bigger Power. If they did not, then everyone would just be trying to run a 4 second quarter on 2 cyl motorcycle engines. None of you can win the argument trying to say 4cyl is better than V8 for making raw power. You may scream till you are blue in the face. There is no replacment for displacment.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: You are aware that GM uses a production block AND head (though prepped for racing) ecotec four cylinder 2.0 Liter engine that run 8.6's in the 1/4 right? (yeah, that's 122 cubic inches). How many production block and head V8's do you know of that run that? O sure, you could get a lingefelter twin-turbo 427, but that's still 7.0 liters of displacement, and those run somewhere in the mid 9's.

Joe Amato did it with a Chevy 454 and a blower back in the 80's and ran 4.9 second 1/4 mile. The engine had 2200hp. But comparing race prepped engines isn't going to prove anything as some engines are designed to run 500 miles and some just need to run a few seconds for 1/4 mile. Neither would be good for towing as they are not built/designed for such use. Same as comparing a 350hp hemi in a truck and a 400hp turbo in a Honda. They were built for different reasons. It isn't so much which engine but more for what it was designed for. A Hemi V-8 in a Ram truck will out tow a SRT-4. The SRT-4 motor in the truck would reduce it's towing ability.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: You are aware that GM uses a production block AND head (though prepped for racing) ecotec four cylinder 2.0 Liter engine that run 8.6's in the 1/4 right? (yeah, that's 122 cubic inches). How many production block and head V8's do you know of that run that? O sure, you could get a lingefelter twin-turbo 427, but that's still 7.0 liters of displacement, and those run somewhere in the mid 9's.

So what do you think an ecotec with 8 cylinders would do?

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: The ferrari Has a HIGHER powerband, not nessecarily a longer one. And in the real world, Even if the gearing was there, a ferrari engine would were itself out really fast if you tried to tow with it. I mean you'd burn that motor out quick. I might have misunderstood your post, I don't know maybe you're defending the pushrod here, I actually can't tell. So you might work on being more specific when you're posting?

here is an example of what i mean for you since you are a little s l o w !
horsepower is a measurement of torque related to rpm (i think) ok take for instance: my friend and i:
we both have 87 fiero GT's
i have a 3.4 DOHC V6, while he has a 4.9 V8 we both have say... what 200 H.P. now he has WAY more torque than me, 275-300(4.9 V8) as opposed to my 215??????
my 3.4DOHC can out accelerate his 4.9 now mind you he can get me in a short race, because of the torque LIGHT TO LIGHT but lets say after 40 mph or whan i reach 2nd gear i pull on him and dont look back! i have a longer( and higher) powerband, As far as towing??? i think i can tow as well as his car!
the point is this an engines design makes it better! and as far as a HEMI?? a 3.4 DOHC is a HEMI !!!! Dodge owns the name not the design!!!! an LS1 is a HEMI

now a DOHC vs a pushrod engine the DOHC is a better stronger engine!
sq in for sq in the DOHC will outperform!!!

you can design a 4 cylinder to have amazing horsepower and torque and handle 10000 rpm constantly and have 600 hp and high torque and tow!! also its seems the main argument is BIG ENGINE vs small engine meaning that a V8 is Naturally a big engine ive seen in some cases 3 liter and smaller v8's and seen 4 cylinder and v6 engines larger than v8's....

case in point: a vipers 8.3 liter v10 500 hp 525 ft/lbs amazing numbers! now lets look closely at this perticular engine, 505 cubic inches, thats a lot of engine,is gonna make that number mainly because of the engines size!!!!

now a ferrari F430's 4.3 liter v8 483 hp 343 ft/lbs also amazing numbers! 262.9 cubic inches not a lot of engine compared to the vipers v10 its 242.1 cubic inches smaller thats almost 1/2 the motor to make almost the same hp! It benifits from DOHC,variable valve timing, and other such goodies!

now how this applies to the topic about the towing??? point is you can build an to have any given horsepower and torque number, but with a smaller engine, it needs more technology basically how most engines are made today........

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Yep they have done some interesting things with "Race Prepped" ecotech motors. I am very impressed with that. I have also seen 1300hp Twin Turbo Corvette V8's. Hell bigger is better, someone just posted a video of a Viper V10 making 2000hp on a chassie Dyno. Yes Two Thousand Horsepower. 4 poppers can be made to make power, but V8's can be made to make more. Back to what I stated and no stipulation on production or note. Bigger Motors make Bigger Power. If they did not, then everyone would just be trying to run a 4 second quarter on 2 cyl motorcycle engines. None of you can win the argument trying to say 4cyl is better than V8 for making raw power. You may scream till you are blue in the face. There is no replacment for displacment.

Re-read my post's. I've never once said that there IS a replacement for displacement, I said that 4 cylinders can be fast.

O, and just to be clear, the twin turbo corvette V8 might be making more power (1300), but so far GM has gotten 1000-1200 HP out of the ecotec. Yes i understand that the ecotecs only run so many 1/4 mile passes, and it's not quite a fair comparison, but still, 1000+ HP out of a 122 cubic inch motor? that's just awesome.

BTW what displacement are the big boy top fuelers?

Supposing that the ecotec made 1200 HP from 122 cubic inches, and the top fuelers were only 500 cubic inches, (and you compared the 9.8 HP per cube) the ecotec at 500 CI would make 4900 HP.

my point is that a 4 cylinder can make power for it's size. and yes, I know, if you actually did make a 300+ cubic inch 4 cylinder, I know it would make more power total than a 150 cube one.

What'd I'd love to see would be a DOHC 500+ cube V8, with twin turbos, built like a top fueler. I wonder how much power something like that would make...

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Don't ever call me slow again. You are obviously the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. You're comparing a Viper 505 V10 to a ferrari 4.3 V8. well that's fine, but let me explain this to you, the 4.3 doesn't make a ton of power because it's DOHC, VVT, and other such goodies. It's because ferrari's design allows that motor to rev to 8K RPM's, AND breath that high. A viper with the right cam, headwork, and exhaust work will rev just as high, and make just as much power. just look at nascar small block V8's. those baby's sit a 9000 RPM all day long. Also you're sentence structure and grammar (or lack there of) are the reason you're posts are mumbling and incoherent. Not because of any lack of intelligence on my part. Just because a motor is a DOHC doesn't mean it's a better, stronger motor. That's a Comment from someone who's been reading a little to much car and driver. and not doing enough thinking on there own.

Now sir, i can nit-pick with you all day long, but thats childish, and you started anyway!

"So you might work on being more specific when you're posting?"

You said that about me????? I'm about to cry...(sniff)

And your comment on Car and Driver,(notice I used a lowercase, "C" on "comment" and uppercase "C and D" on Car and Driver, that's the correct way) I stated an engines design had everything to do what it's power output, you just proved my point, and made youself --nah i wont go there here is what you said... and i quote

" You're comparing a Viper 505 V10 to a ferrari 4.3 V8. well that's fine, but let me explain this to you, the 4.3 doesn't make a ton of power because it's DOHC, VVT, and other such goodies. It's because ferrari's design allows that motor to rev to 8K RPM's, AND breath that high"

Did you just say the same thing twice while saying they are not the same?

OMG you used breath??? That's outta context, the correct word is breathe! <---I did it also, I said "outta" istead of "out of" whats the matter with that?????????

DOHC, VVT, and other such goodies???? I kinda think thats called DESIGN!!!

now just have some fun dude

[This message has been edited by Exotic Rida (edited 08-05-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: now a DOHC vs a pushrod engine the DOHC is a better stronger engine! sq in for sq in the DOHC will outperform!!!

Yep, you did say it. you said a DOHC is a better stronger engine, but it was a good effort to try and made me look dumb.

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: exactly my point!!!!!!!!!!! a small motor can pull as godd as or better than a larger engine ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN! you can take a ferrari F430 v8 4.3L DOHC variable timing,high revving 483 hp 343 fb/ft a hemi is 5.7L! low revving pushrod do u really think it can tow like a HEMI??????? hell no....... it will tow tons better because of the longer powerband!!!

Read that again, does that even sound coherent?

and no, I didn't start anything, I stated that you should be more specific when you post something, does that sound like an unreasonable request given the above statement.

Well anyways, you enjoy you're DOHC motor when you're towing, go ahead and buy you're ferrari since it's got such a long powerband compared to the Hemi, and tow with it. It should easily last 100K miles, I mean, it's a DOHC vs a pushrod, DOHC's are always better, see, here, I found this on the internet that supports my theory that DOHC's are always better...

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: now a DOHC vs a pushrod engine the DOHC is a better stronger engine!

Now in all honesty, Do you really think a comment like the above is really true? Are you truely ignorant enough to believe that just because a car has DOHC's and 4 valves a cylinder that it's a superior motor? Well there are more parts than just cylinder heads on engines you know, they all make there own contributions. saying something like that is about as ignorant as saying something like "all V8's are better than 4 cylinders." It's called ignorance.

Okay, we're already off the original intented point of this post. The question has been answered. Yes, the four-banger could do it.

The questions of reliability, torque, horsepower, cylinders, displacement, etc., I guess are now what this is about, if bonzo doesn't mind us all just accepting this topic for what it's become. Lol. So let me help us all along with a helpful link to make sure we're all "up to speed."

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm

Read the cross-referenced articles too, like "How Horsepower Works," etc. Good stuff. All reliable information as well. I see many misconceptions indicated in what's been said here, and this should bring us all to the same page.

Hope it helps.

Top fuelers make their power running nitro methane fuel. Not sure what the ecotec's run.

I've picked up 3 negs so far, wow, way to control yourselves.... Sad when you can't have a good brawling discussion without people and their damn itchy ratings button... Get a life people, I havn't rated anyone in this thread...

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: the 4.3 doesn't make a ton of power because it's DOHC, VVT, and other such goodies. It's because ferrari's design allows that motor to rev to 8K RPM's, AND breath that high. .

WTF part of the design allows it to make its broad powerband up high if its not the dohc and vvt? the only things left are the pistons,rods,crank,intake and exhaust. and only two of those have anything to do with breathing

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Now in all honesty, Do you really think a comment like the above is really true? Are you truely ignorant enough to believe that just because a car has DOHC's and 4 valves a cylinder that it's a superior motor? Well there are more parts than just cylinder heads on engines you know, they all make there own contributions. saying something like that is about as ignorant as saying something like "all V8's are better than 4 cylinders." It's called ignorance.

Sir, i have built race engines, stock engines, (its like a drug to me)!

The point, sir is this: inch for inch, a DOHC 4 valve engine, more often than not will make more H.P. than a pushrod engine given off the same design, let's see an example maybe? 3.4 pushrod and my 3.4 DOHC.

Or we can compare say a LT1 and a honda s2000: the s2000 makes 240 hp while an Lt1 makes in the Corvette 300! Thats only 60 more horsepower from a motor thats almost 3 times as large!

Now the other half: Do u really think an s2000 has the amount of torque a LT1 has??????? NO!

Now I'm not saying pushrod engines are garbage or anything, its cheap horsepower, that is why the engines need to be so large, not that there is anything wrong with that, the new corvette z06 engine is a pretty nice engine 505 h.p.,true it is a 7 Liter engine but thats how companies like chevrolet keep costs down, a ferrari F50 v12 is 4.7 Liters and makes more power (513 hp) But do you know how much that will cost???. The reason i compared a ferrari engine to a vipers earlier is this: I was proving that with a high level of design a small motor can be more powerful than a larger one, thus proving that with the right design a 4 cylinder can tow as good or better than a HEMI.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Top fuelers make their power running nitro methane fuel. Not sure what the ecotec's run. I've picked up 3 negs so far, wow, way to control yourselves.... Sad when you can't have a good brawling discussion without people and their damn itchy ratings button... Get a life people, I havn't rated anyone in this thread...

I gave you a (+) . I think you're keeping it civil and have a good arguement

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: WTF part of the design allows it to make its broad powerband up high if its not the dohc and vvt? the only things left are the pistons,rods,crank,intake and exhaust. and only two of those have anything to do with breathing

Maybe I'm just used to turbo motors and tuning those, But I know for a fact that you can make a nice flat fat torque curve just fine without VVT.

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: Sir, i have built race engines, stock engines, (its like a drug to me)! The point, sir is this: inch for inch, a DOHC 4 valve engine, more often than not will make more H.P. than a pushrod engine given off the same design, let's see an example maybe? 3.4 pushrod and my 3.4 DOHC. Or we can compare say a LT1 and a honda s2000: the s2000 makes 240 hp while an Lt1 makes in the Corvette 300! Thats only 60 more horsepower from a motor thats almost 3 times as large! Now the other half: Do u really think an s2000 has the amount of torque a LT1 has??????? NO! Now I'm not saying pushrod engines are garbage or anything, its cheap horsepower, that is why the engines need to be so large, not that there is anything wrong with that, the new corvette z06 engine is a pretty nice engine 505 h.p.,true it is a 7 Liter engine but thats how companies like chevrolet keep costs down, a ferrari F50 v12 is 4.7 Liters and makes more power (513 hp) But do you know how much that will cost???. The reason i compared a ferrari engine to a vipers earlier is this: I was proving that with a high level of design a small motor can be more powerful than a larger one, thus proving that with the right design a 4 cylinder can tow as good or better than a HEMI.

Now see, Look, this is a good arugumentative point right here. well organized, easy to read/understand and I got you to do it without you even realizing that you were.

anyways, let's not compare LT1's to S2000's, totally different motors, with totally different ideas behind them. Not to mention that one is roughly ten years older than the other. If you really, really wanted to compare the S2000 motor to a pushrod it needs to be either the LS6 or LS7

It's also not really that pushrod's are such cheap horsepower that corvette's and viper's use them, it's really more the torque these motors put out that's important to the car. It goes back to that saying the right tool for the right job. Also, for all ferrari's effort on the 3.6 V8 in the 360, all 400 horse's of those, in a car that weighs 400ish lbs less than a Zo6, it still runs a 1/2 slower quarter mile time. I don't personally care how much technology is in a motor if it's not that faster (or much more fuel effecient) motor of the two.

I think I'll just stick with turbos, I'm not to sure I really like these N/A engines.

The no replacement for displacement doesn't hold any water.. Thats like saying there si no replacement for anything else that makes power. "Yeah, but give it 2 more liters and it will make more power. See, no replacement for displacement".. Ok, so what if the argument was changed to no replacement for RPM.. "Let it handle more RPM and it will make more power"

Should be changed to "There is no replacement for displacement except forced induction or RPM"... OR

"Displacement and RPM and efficiency are all different ways to get power from a motor."

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: The no replacement for displacement doesn't hold any water.. Thats like saying there si no replacement for anything else that makes power. "Yeah, but give it 2 more liters and it will make more power. See, no replacement for displacement".. Ok, so what if the argument was changed to no replacement for RPM.. "Let it handle more RPM and it will make more power" Should be changed to "There is no replacement for displacement except forced induction or RPM"... OR "Displacement and RPM and efficiency are all different ways to get power from a motor."

No, you're kinda missing the point. Yeah you can make more power from less motor by letting it breathe higher and/or putting forced induction on it, but the people in this thread arguing that are simply saying that if you had a 150 CI 4 cylinder, turbo, nitrous, and rev'd to 8K, and then built a 700 CI V8, Turbo, nitrous, etc. the bigger motor will make more power.

In other words, anything you can do to a four, you can do to a V8 5 times the displacement and make a heck of a lot more power.

I don't want to argue the displacement statement part of this thread, this was just a clarification.

So much garbage to sift through but may I ask this question .

In the real world how come tractor trailers don't have 4 cylinder engines if they have such great towing ability????
How come the big 4 automakers are not using 4 cylinders in their truck .????
Why do have to rev 4 banger my engine so hard to make torque to tow .??????

Obviously there is a lot of misinformation about different engines discussed here and what they can do sopme are bisaed to the DOHC and some are to the push rods engines but bigger engines are mure durable less prone to fatigue failure as for their smaller counterpart ,here is an example last week took a 28' Wellcraft to the local a local marina using a borrowed 1991 Toyota pickup to tow it ,pushed it in was fine but after loading on the trailer it strained to pull it out and we almost lost the truck.....at that point another boater with a Silverado came to our assistance and pulled us out with out any effort whatsoever so what should I believe is the 4 cylinder stronger?.

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: So much garbage to sift through but may I ask this question . In the real world how come tractor trailers don't have 4 cylinder engines if they have such great towing ability???? How come the big 4 automakers are not using 4 cylinders in their truck .???? Why do have to rev 4 banger my engine so hard to make torque to tow .?????? Obviously there is a lot of misinformation about different engines discussed here and what they can do sopme are bisaed to the DOHC and some are to the push rods engines but bigger engines are mure durable less prone to fatigue failure as for their smaller counterpart ,here is an example last week took a 28' Wellcraft to the local a local marina using a borrowed 1991 Toyota pickup to tow it ,pushed it in was fine but after loading on the trailer it strained to pull it out and we almost lost the truck.....at that point another boater with a Silverado came to our assistance and pulled us out with out any effort whatsoever so what should I believe is the 4 cylinder stronger?.

Tractor trailers use 6 cylinders.. Not the magical 8.. How come they aren't using 16's? a v24 would surely create an engine so powerful we'd only need 1 transport truck!

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: So much garbage to sift through but may I ask this question . In the real world how come tractor trailers don't have 4 cylinder engines if they have such great towing ability???? How come the big 4 automakers are not using 4 cylinders in their truck .???? Why do have to rev 4 banger my engine so hard to make torque to tow .?????? .

because us americans are brought up to belive bigger is better! America iconized the V8 thats why
we have v8's in most of our cars. Europe and other countries, are brough up on efficeincy (sp?) thats why you see all kinds of engines in other countries!

will we ever see a ford or dodge with a sub 5 liter DOHC engine (it can be a v8 for that matter) that makes more horsepower and torque than a 5.7 HEMI or a 5.0 TRITON????

no!!

think on it would you buy a HEMI dodge truck or a 4.0 DOHC v8 full-size truck with 375 hp and 400 torque??????
id bet my bottom dollar more than 3/4 of america will still pick the HEMI just because its a HEMI

in the 60's and 70's all the talk was this:

"I have a 327" or "I have a 396" or "I have a 427"!
all of which are v8's...........

Now as far as the trucks, the nissan titan is a DOHC v8 and makes more torque than fords v8 and the HEMI.

and another anwser to your question, do u really think DODGE would have made the sales they did if they didnt bring back the HEMI name???

no! its all on marketing!

another anwser
the reason that you have to rev a smaller 4 or 6 cylinder engine that high to make the power is because its small, and you have to rev the engine to make a lot of power . but up at high revs a pushrod engine cannot even get there to make the argument.

yeah and i know you can build a pushrod to rev to 7000 and higher rpms but DOHC engines can rev almost 3 times as high nad make more power.

ive driven a few supercars (well actually only one) a ferrari f355 6 speed and ive driven the latest 405 hp z06 they have complete diffrent personalities while the vette has that put you in the seat feel the ferrari has a felling alike a roller coaster, it just keeps pulling and pulling and pulling making your stomach turn!

and also
SEMI trucks use 6 cylinders bro!

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: So much garbage to sift through but may I ask this question . In the real world how come tractor trailers don't have 4 cylinder engines if they have such great towing ability???? How come the big 4 automakers are not using 4 cylinders in their truck .???? Why do have to rev 4 banger my engine so hard to make torque to tow .?????? Obviously there is a lot of misinformation about different engines discussed here and what they can do sopme are bisaed to the DOHC and some are to the push rods engines but bigger engines are mure durable less prone to fatigue failure as for their smaller counterpart ,here is an example last week took a 28' Wellcraft to the local a local marina using a borrowed 1991 Toyota pickup to tow it ,pushed it in was fine but after loading on the trailer it strained to pull it out and we almost lost the truck.....at that point another boater with a Silverado came to our assistance and pulled us out with out any effort whatsoever so what should I believe is the 4 cylinder stronger?.

we've already gone thru this - none would buy a 4 cyl full size truck.
be big - be meaty - be Frank
need a big motor, for the big truck, to carry the big butt.
its all in what people will buy.
we love V8's. pure muscle.
we giggle at high strung 4 bangers buzzing along on the verge of self-destruction.

I love my Suburban, with its 350 V8, 4x4 & ground clearance. in 4wd low, its a real stump puller. buts its an old < 200 HP TBI POS. I know strapping a turbo'd ecotech in would be stronger than whats in it now. but NO Frackin way would I do that. a 4 banger Suburban - lol. just like a 4 banger 'vette - aint gonna happen.

and like Capt said earleir - no reason you can't turbo a V8.....

the 4 bangers of the late 70's & the 80's were dismal, and anyone who's owned one will probably never associate a 4 banger with power. maybe when this generation gets older, you will see full size trucks with 4 bangers.

electric gots all these internal combustion POS's beat in raw low end pulling grunt.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Is your V8 turbo or supercharged? Cuz hey, wait, O look, yep, my four cylinder ALREADY is TURBO'D It's not that 4 cylinder people think that V8 guys CAN'T do something, it's just that 99% DON'T do it. So arguing that you could turbo your V8 is rather pointless cuz you're not going to. NOT TO MENTION, it has NOTHING to do with THIS argument

It has everything to do with this argument. People are comparing turbo 4-cylinders against NA V8's, acting like the V8 can't be turbo'ed as well. There is no replacement for displacement, if you were to compare 2 motors, both VVT, redline 8000, DOHC 4V/Cyl, 1 2.0L and another 6.0L the 6.0L would make more power. Comparing a turbo 4-cyl to a na V8 is comparing apples and oranges.

My Dad has the same car as you, in fact the same color and EVERYTHING. The thing is a dog, and its to say it came with that turbo from the factory. 1.9L 120 hp motor w/ DOHC and it can only keep up with my stock pushrod '88 GT. How many people do you think actually put turbos on Saturn SL2's? I'd be willing to bet more people put superchargers on LS1 Camaros than there are people who put turbos on Saturn SL2's.

And putting a vortech supercharger on WAS something I was planning to do to my LS1.

Bigger is Better.

More valves doesn't always mean more power:

Ford 4.6L SOHC 3V/Cylinder V8

300 HP @5750
320 TORQUE @4500

GM 4.6L DOHC 4V/Cylinder Northstar V8

300 HP @ 6000
295 TORQUE @ 4400

I know there are other things that help make power in an engine, but more valves does not always mean more power. The Ford engine has 1 less valve per cylinder than the northstar, same displacement, but it makes the same horsepower and 25 more torque. I'd say, weight, gearing, and other things equal, the car with the Ford 4.6 would edge out the Northstar. They both have the same horsepower, but in 1st gear the Ford would pull the Northstar more and it would hold that distance for the rest of the race. My point here is that both horsepower and torque are needed to win races. You don't see Ferrari's winning at the dragstrip, the engines have loads of horsepower because they redline high but they don't generate as much torque, plus their gearing is made for speed not acceleration. Only rev the Ferrari engine to 6k and see how much horsepower it makes, it makes something closer to its torque. Now rev my LS1 to 8k (theoretically, if it didn't blow up) and it'd make a lot more than its torque and would probably have numbers similiar to a Ferrari engine. Now the LS1 would blow up before 8k rpms because its not made to hit that like the Ferrari, but then again my LS1, as a crate engine costs around 4k-5k. Anyone know how much a Ferrari V12 costs? I know its more than $5000. Technology can make a car fast but you also have to pay for that technology. I'd rather have my less-than-20k Camaro than a 200k Ferrari that's only slightly faster, although I wouldn't kick the Ferrari off my driveway if someone gave it to me for free .

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: the 4 bangers of the late 70's & the 80's were dismal, and anyone who's owned one will probably never associate a 4 banger with power. maybe when this generation gets older, you will see full size trucks with 4 bangers. electric gots all these internal combustion POS's beat in raw low end pulling grunt.

I vowed to stay out of this thread but some interesting comments by Pyrthian...

It's all about perception, forget the dyno, forget the torque curves and average power... anyone that grew up in this country during the 70s and 80s associates a 4 banger with a small crappy low power car and the only engine that makes power is a V8. I must be a part of that old school then because I replaced my 4 banger with a V8. True a quad 4 probably would have made the same power or better than a 4.9L V8, but there is a certain emotional appeal to the V8.

Same with an electric car, because of the crappy battery design people think electrics are slow when I could easily build a 12 second 1/4 mile electric car, (although it might only have a range of a 1/4 mile )

quote Originally posted by Tinton: My Dad has the same car as you, in fact the same color and EVERYTHING. The thing is a dog, and its to say it came with that turbo from the factory. 1.9L 120 hp motor w/ DOHC and it can only keep up with my stock pushrod '88 GT. How many people do you think actually put turbos on Saturn SL2's? I'd be willing to bet more people put superchargers on LS1 Camaros than there are people who put turbos on Saturn SL2's. And putting a vortech supercharger on WAS something I was planning to do to my LS1.

It didn't come from the factory with the turbo ace, I put that on there. Wait, Now you are comparing the 1.9 saturn to a 2.8 fiero? making it sound like it's slow too? I don't understand how that works, it's got 10-15 (depending on fiero 2.8 model) less HP, and 48 less ft lbs, but it can keep up and you're trying to make it sound slow? :WTF:

as far as how many people have turbo saturns, well, turbosaturns.net is down currently, but there are over 20 people on there that have them, or nitrous, or built N/A motors. sure not as many as there are camaro guys, but like I said, do YOU have a turbo? Not, I'm thinking about getting one, I've been thinking about putting a northstar in my fiero for 2 or 3 years, But I'm talking already done. No, you don't. I however DO already have the turbo. Also, I never said my motor is better, or that a turbo couldn't be done on a V8, so don't try to stuff that down my throat like I said that.

O, and re-read what I've personally said, I never once argued anything against displacement making more power. Here just in case you can't find it on your own.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: In other words, anything you can do to a four, you can do to a V8 5 times the displacement and make a heck of a lot more power. I don't want to argue the displacement statement part of this thread, this was just a clarification.

Check that out, I did say it. I did say that a bigger motor would make more power, and only just a few post's above that last one from yourself.

So it's not fair to compare a turbo 4 to an N/A V8? So are you saying we all need to have EXACTLY the same motor for every car produced anymore so we can compare them all? Do you think we should just do away with all motors that aren't V8's?

So what would be a fair comparision given the context of the orignal question?

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Check that out, I did say it. I did say that a bigger motor would make more power, and only just a few post's above that last one from yourself. So it's not fair to compare a turbo 4 to an N/A V8? So are you saying we all need to have EXACTLY the same motor for every car produced anymore so we can compare them all? Do you think we should just do away with all motors that aren't V8's? So what would be a fair comparision given the context of the orignal question?

The Saturn is slow because the car only weighs around 2400 lbs. My 88 GT is fully loaded with every option and weighs about 2800 lbs. The fact that the Fiero, with a pushrod motor and no top end, can keep up with the SL2 means the SL2 is slow.

Compare NA vs. NA please. Turbo or supercharging throws it completely out of the ballpark. Only riceboys actually compare Turbo vs. NA or SC vs. NA and they only do it so they have something to feel good about. They don't even begin to think that if I had the same add-ons (but made for my engine) the comparison would make sense and his engine wouldn't hold anything to my V8.

And I'm not just thinking about adding a S/C, I'm saving up my money for it. A vortech kit with intercooler costs $5000 or more.

My post was not just directed at you, it was directed at other people in here, and anyone else who reads this that thinks that "oh you can turbo a 4-cyl and make big power, you obviously cannot do it to a V8 too, duh duh duh duh".

quote Originally posted by Tinton: Compare NA vs. NA please. Turbo or supercharging throws it completely out of the ballpark.

this thread is about a 400+ tuner car - which is most likely Turbo'd and its ability - or lack thereof - to pull a 19 ft boat up a long steep grade, compared to a Dodge Ram w/350 hp HEMI.

we do seem to have agreement all around that it can do it.

I understand the frustration in the V8 crowd. sucks seeing neons & civics eating up Z-28's & Mustangs.
but, like many above said - you can turbo a V8 also.....but, for some reason, dont see much of that. maybe its to complicated a project for the old school....

the cam/carb/header jacked up w/Kragers days are over - let loose the buzz-bombs w/their fart cans & spinner rims!

quote Originally posted by Tinton: More valves doesn't always mean more power: Ford 4.6L SOHC 3V/Cylinder V8 300 HP @5750 320 TORQUE @4500 GM 4.6L DOHC 4V/Cylinder Northstar V8 300 HP @ 6000 295 TORQUE @ 4400

True, both engines have about the same power. Now take away 1 intake valve on the ford engine and now compare the results. It would now be like every other pushrod engine we are comparing to. The N* is mildly tuned from factory, it is afterall pulling a cadillac. Its capable of huge hp numbers and rpm, thats why its favored by chrfab for high power sand rails.

The reason we are comparing a turbocharged 4 to a NA V-8 is because the original question asks us to. I'm sure he didn't mean 400hp NA 4cyls, that just requires very high rpm. A 400hp turbocharged 4cyl is very drivable, and is a "tuner" engine.

If you guys want a direct comparison of motors, here's one

LT1 VS LT5. The LT5 is superior in every way to an LT1. Both are 5.7L, but the LT5 is a DOHC sbc. Only reason its not offered in a corvette, or any other dohc engine is because the purists don't want them, although its performance is much greater. Could you imagine a DOHC LS6 in a corvette? Chevy would be competing with ferrari and Lambourghini. How about DOHC heads on a Viper? It would psycho, probibly another 200hp just from the heads alone. VVT on a DOHC motor means you don't sacrafice low rpm torque and can have a much broader powerband while still having high rpm power.

Displacement means nothing if you don't have proper airflow into a motor. You can achieve a much higher hp/L with a dohc motor over a pushrod 2 valve per cylinder motor. Sportbikes achieve about 165hp/L. If you add 4 more cylinders you have a 2L V-8 with 330hp. Thats more power than the ford 4.6L engine from only 2L. Sportbikes are very capable of being pushed hard and have great durability and reliability. This is a clear indication that displacement alone does not mean more power.

We are really getting off topic. Here is a recap

The 400hp 4 cyl motor can pull the load as well as a 350hp hemi, but a 4cyl will never be offered in a truck because it is impractical and would not sell. It physically has the power to pull a load, but you get more durability with a low hp/cyl engine such as a Hemi V-8 or a Turbo Diesel engine. Big motors also offer more curb weight which is beneficial to towing.

I have never seen a single rice racer car with ANY amount of horsepower towing a boat out to the lake. They park them and use dads V8 pickup or SUV.

As for semis................there turbocharged diesels and their a completely different animal from both of the others. If I remember, most of them are less than 300 hp. They have no trouble pulling 20 ton trailers. Id venture to say a twin supercharged import wouldnt be able to even budge it without blowing axles or trannies in a million parts or turning the engine into a pile of scrap metal while trying.