This probly should be in off topic.

I showed my Dad some articles of these Tuner cars getting 400+ hp and torque. He was amazed at the power they're getting out of these 4 bangers.
My Dad has a Dodge Ram with a Hemi that has 350 hp and 375 torque. Last Sat. were were towing a 19ft boat bothe the truck and boat had full tanks of gas. We had 5 people in the truck plus coolers etc. Fully loaded. We came up to a very steep and long bridge doing about 55 mph. My dad said lets see what this Hemi will do. When we were at the top of the bridge we had sped up to 70 mph. He said now let me see one of those 4 bangers do that. I didn't know what to say. Could a 4 banger boasting that much hp and torque do that and if not why?

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Naturally Aspirated? Probably not. The reason these four bangers are pushing out such HP numbers is from boost. In this sense, you have to keep the RPM's high (spool the turbo) to get into the torque. Look up some hemi dyno charts and compare them to that of a high power 4 cylinder like an Mitsubishi Evo or Subaru STI motor. A V-8 can make the grunt down low, 1500 rpms. A four cylinder is going to start making its power around 2500-3000 rpm .

It comes down to torque curve and gearing. Most of the 4 bangers make their power in the upper RPM ranges vs a truck V8 which is designed to have better low end response.

That said, if you're climibing a steep hill towing a load, and the RPM's fall, it's all over for the 4 banger. The torquey V8 will continue to plug away.

The 4 banger with turbo would likely have a very difficult time getting the load moving in the first place. Once it was moving, and assuming you could keep the revs up, it would accomplish the same thing. Wouldn't be very practical though.

I tow my fifth wheel with an F250 with a 460 EFI. Makes very little power over 4000 RPM, but between 1500 and 3500, it's an absolute beast. Would probably drag a strip mall down the street if you could break the foundation out of the ground.

Each engine has it's purpose. High winding turbo 4 bangers can be a load of fun on a road course with some spirited shifting. But I wouldn't want to drag the Coachmen around with one.

[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 07-29-2005).]

Random Task is incorrect.

By saying let's see what this thing can do, he means WOT. So it is in the best gear already. Now the 4 cylinder downshifts, sits at 5000rpm, and blows your door's off. Could the 4cyl do it with a boat and trialer and 5 people? Theoretically yes, and it'd beat the truck, but in real life probably not, becuase it isn't set up to pull a 6000lb trailer.

Your dad is under the old impression that torque wins races. That is also incorrect, torque WON races, at one point in time. Back in the day, gear ratios sucked. The reason torque won was becuz the high revving, high hp vehicles didn't have the egars to take advantage of it. Nowadays, almost any new car is going to have near perfect gear ratios, meaning at WOT, it is kept in its hp curve for the entire run. A good example is the 2.8 Fiero. It is great through 1st and 2nd, but after that, my Z34 BLOWS IT AWAY. I mean just runs away. The reason is the 3.4 has all that high end, and the gearing to keep it there. Thanks to the Fieros torque, it can hang with the Z34 until about 50, then the Z34 looks like it sprays it walks away so fast. With my buddy driving the Z34, me in the Fiero, I beat him off the line, and held him off until about 20-25, where he caught up and slowly passed me. I hit 3rd at like 50mph, and the Z34 just took off. By 90 he was easily 4-5 car lengths ahead.

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quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Random Task is incorrect. By saying let's see what this thing can do, he means WOT. So it is in the best gear already. Now the 4 cylinder downshifts, sits at 5000rpm, and blows your door's off. Could the 4cyl do it with a boat and trialer and 5 people? Theoretically yes, and it'd beat the truck, but in real life probably not, becuase it isn't set up to pull a 6000lb trailer. Your dad is under the old impression that torque wins races. That is also incorrect, torque WON races, at one point in time. Back in the day, gear ratios sucked. The reason torque won was becuz the high revving, high hp vehicles didn't have the egars to take advantage of it. Nowadays, almost any new car is going to have near perfect gear ratios, meaning at WOT, it is kept in its hp curve for the entire run. A good example is the 2.8 Fiero. It is great through 1st and 2nd, but after that, my Z34 BLOWS IT AWAY. I mean just runs away. The reason is the 3.4 has all that high end, and the gearing to keep it there. Thanks to the Fieros torque, it can hang with the Z34 until about 50, then the Z34 looks like it sprays it walks away so fast. With my buddy driving the Z34, me in the Fiero, I beat him off the line, and held him off until about 20-25, where he caught up and slowly passed me. I hit 3rd at like 50mph, and the Z34 just took off. By 90 he was easily 4-5 car lengths ahead.

http://img198.echo.cx/my.php?image=img14408gf.jpg

Notice the torque curve-- Starts at 2200rpm and is damn near flat across the board... Thats a V-8 in a mustang.

Now look at a Subaru STI --- http://www.ultimate-racing.com/Products/STi/STi-Stage3-15psi-DynoSheet01.jpg

You have to be spinning 4300 RPM to be in your torque curve. In the sense of accelerating, 400ft lbs is 400 ft lbs, but if you can be making 400 ft lbs over a longer RPM spread, you can run a longer gear, meaning less shifting. In other words, you can accelerate from 75mph to 80mph in the STI where as you could accelerate 55mph-85mph in the mustang.

This notion of yours that torque doesn't races is totally false. HP is a DERIVATIVE OF TORQUE, Torque doesn't completely win a race, but your torque curve will! You gear your torque, NOT your hp.

quote Nowadays, almost any new car is going to have near perfect gear ratios

Perfect for what? Drag strip? Cruising? Auto-X?

You're fiero loses to your Z34 for several variables, BUT since were trying to stick to the subject, gearing provides a mechanical advantage to torque. After 2nd gear the fiero probably loses this advantage.

I could go on forever about this, but want to see your reply...

[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 07-29-2005).]

The difference is the RPM at which the engine generates that power. A big ole V8 can generate gobs of torque right from idle, whereas a little 4-banger has to rev like crazy to generate the same amount of torque.

Back in the "good old days", engine manufacturing technology wasn't up to the task of building high-RPM screamers. So when they wanted a more powerful engine, they just made a bigger one. But nowadays, we can build low-displacement, high-RPM engines that won't explode like a grenade when you stomp on the gas.

BTW, I agree with RandomTask. Torque at the wheels DOES win races. With no torque, the car is just going to sit there. It's pretty hard to win a race with a stationary car. And the gearing in the transmission is a TORQUE multiplier, not a HP multiplier.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 07-29-2005).]

Since the 4 bangers can run this much power at high RPMs, What if the car can do 70 MPH in 2nd or 3rd gear. Could he pull this load and accelerate if he kept his RPMs up and did it in 2nd or 3rd?

Bonzo

HP is work. The more hp you have, the more work your engine is capable of doing.

A 400hp 4 cylinder is more powerful than a 350hp hemi period. To take advantage of the low torque the 4cyl makes, it needs short gearing. To take advantage of the big torque the hemi makes, it needs longer gearing.

In a perfect senario, the 400hp 4 cyl will win.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: HP is work. The more hp you have, the more work your engine is capable of doing. A 400hp 4 cylinder is more powerful than a 350hp hemi period. To take advantage of the low torque the 4cyl makes, it needs short gearing. To take advantage of the big torque the hemi makes, it needs longer gearing. In a perfect senario, the 400hp 4 cyl will win.

True 400hp is more than 350hp but a few variables can make those 50 extra horse in the 4cyl less appealing. Would you rather have a tow truck with a 400hp 4cyl that needs to be all but maxed out reving to get your power or a 350hp hemi that give you most of it's power between idle and 3500rpm? My point is engines are tools, choose the right one for the task. I think most would prefer the hemi in the tow truck.

I sure wouldnt want to try to tow a car trailer at 75 mph with a 400 hp honda, but its not problem with a 400 hp Hemi. Wanna take bets on which engine blows up first? (assuming the honda can even get up the first hill) Maybe the honda can go 160 mph .........................................but so does the Charger.

I understand small cubes and torque. I used to drive a tr4 with a super charger and blow the doors off of the new cameos (back when they first came out.) . but it wasn't all torque and horsepower. It was HORSEPOER TO WEIGHT RATIO. The fellas that are enamored with high output 4 bangers would be REALLY happy with a properly built V8 in the same car. (If installed so you could keep the weight distributed.) Ya can't just jump on horsepower or torque.. How wide is your torque band and how light is your car...............

And one more point. Ever wonder why smaller engines with the the same amount of hp seem to always have less torque than one with more displacement? While displacement may or may not equal hp it seems to always equal more torque.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: HP is work. The more hp you have, the more work your engine is capable of doing. A 400hp 4 cylinder is more powerful than a 350hp hemi period. To take advantage of the low torque the 4cyl makes, it needs short gearing. To take advantage of the big torque the hemi makes, it needs longer gearing. In a perfect senario, the 400hp 4 cyl will win.

Your opinion please. Which is better - 3.4 V6 DOHC or Caddy V8? You've had both. The DOHC is a "screamer" the other has "low RPM grunt".

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Fiero Fiesta - July 24, 2005 - Calgary, Alberta <--- click this LINK

3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I sure wouldnt want to try to tow a car trailer at 75 mph with a 400 hp honda, but its not problem with a 400 hp Hemi. Wanna take bets on which engine blows up first? (assuming the honda can even get up the first hill) Maybe the honda can go 160 mph .........................................but so does the Charger.

Ain't saying nothing, let the kids learn the hard way !

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Car History: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025670.html

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I sure wouldnt want to try to tow a car trailer at 75 mph with a 400 hp honda, but its not problem with a 400 hp Hemi. Wanna take bets on which engine blows up first? (assuming the honda can even get up the first hill) Maybe the honda can go 160 mph .........................................but so does the Charger.

That's an important point.

The 400 horse 4 banger is designed to accelerate a light car quickly. With the right gears it may be able to tow a heavy load, but it's going to be screaming at high rpm and high boost continutiously. How long is the engine typically under those loads during a race?

The 4 banger is going to blow up much quicker. Maybe not right then, but over the course of time. The large high torque engine can pull the same load at lower rpms, which is less stress on the engine and it can pull it all day long.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-29-2005).]

quote Originally posted by fierosound: Your opinion please. Which is better - 3.4 V6 DOHC or Caddy V8? You've had both. The DOHC is a "screamer" the other has "low RPM grunt".

Read post above this one.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: By saying let's see what this thing can do, he means WOT. So it is in the best gear already. Now the 4 cylinder downshifts, sits at 5000rpm, and blows your door's off. Could the 4cyl do it with a boat and trialer and 5 people? Theoretically yes, and it'd beat the truck, but in real life probably not, becuase it isn't set up to pull a 6000lb trailer.

...its not set up to pull a 3 ton trailer. but theroetically it would, and beat the truck? huh??? you lost me here. remember... 3 ton load + hill. thats the parameters you have to deal with. aint gonna happen, theory or real life. tie a boat on the back of that 400hp 4banger and give it a hill... watch your rpms fall off like leaves in october.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: <snip>A good example is the 2.8 Fiero. It is great through 1st and 2nd, but after that, my Z34 BLOWS IT AWAY. <snip>

apples and oranges?

hmmm, i'll put my 3800 against your 3.4 and you wont see nothing but my tailights the whole time.

again, apples and oranges.

for some reason, i lost your logic here.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Your dad is under the old impression that torque wins races.

now lessee... torque doesnt win races huh. tell that to kenny bernstein. anytime you think you can top him with your nawz squirtin, turbo'd 4banger, just let him know... he'll move over and letcha by.

sorry but i'm in no mood to sit here and listen to parkinglot physics. the rest of you, carry on.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: HP is work. The more hp you have, the more work your engine is capable of doing. A 400hp 4 cylinder is more powerful than a 350hp hemi period. To take advantage of the low torque the 4cyl makes, it needs short gearing. To take advantage of the big torque the hemi makes, it needs longer gearing. In a perfect senario, the 400hp 4 cyl will win.

HP is work, but the power curve has a lot to do with it as well. Most small displacement engines with high horsepower tend to have a smaller power band than a larger displacement engine. Usually if you take the HP vs. RPM range of the engine then average the HP across that range, You'll find out that the 350hp Hemi will have a higher average HP than the 400hp 4-cyl. The flatter power curve will provide better sustained power as in towing. So in the "towing" scenario, the larger displacement engine would win.

The day the fastest 4 banger is faster than the fasted V8 on the drag track. I will concede.

The top fuel V8 cars are in the 4 second quarters now arn't they. What is the fastest 4 cyl running.

Turbocharged engines have a broad powerband if the turbo is suited for the motor. 400hp is peanuts compared to what 4 cyl engines can produce. There are plenty of Hondas out there with 700whp.

Like I said before, HP is work. The more HP an engine has, the more work it can do.

I am a Power Engineer, I work with this type of stuff every day

This engine is 2000hp at 300rpm. It may have 35,000lb/ft of torque, but it still only does 2000hp worth of work. A modified turbocharged N* can do more work.

Turbocharged straight 6

Turbocharged V-10, same hp and rpm as the 6cyl.

A 400hp engine will beat a 350hp engine. There are many tricks you can use to keep the smaller displacement engine in its powerband, including a high rpm stall converter.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 07-30-2005).]

Let's apply a little common sense here, just because it's possible to do something, doesn't make it a wise decision.

What do you mean? A 1L engine and a 6L engine can produce the same hp. They do the same amount of work. The only reason the 6L engine is better is because it will be more durable. Thats it.

Here you go, Twin turbo, Twin supercharged V-16 Diesel. 1000hp at 1800rpm. A modified toyota supra engine would wax this one in the amount of work it can do. A Supra engine can produce 1500hp.

There is nothing magical about a 5.7l hemi making 350hp. A 350hp 4cyl does the same amount of work, with weight savings to boot.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: What do you mean? A 1L engine and a 6L engine can produce the same hp. They do the same amount of work. The only reason the 6L engine is better is because it will be more durable. Thats it. Here you go, Twin turbo, Twin supercharged V-16 Diesel. 1000hp at 1800rpm. A modified toyota supra engine would wax this one in the amount of work it can do. A Supra engine can produce 1500hp. There is nothing magical about a 5.7l hemi making 350hp. A 350hp 4cyl does the same amount of work, with weight savings to boot.

Your theory has merit if you are only looking for the end result of accomplishing that goal. But what about everything leading up to the goal? If my goal is to travel 20 miles they are many ways to accomplish that. I can walk, jog, run, cycle, drive, take a bus or train. But which one is more practical within a given scenario? That's the key and given this scenario the 4cyl is just not practical even tho it maybe capable of accomplishing the goal.

I agree, but look at the original question. Yes, a 400hp 4cyl will accelerate with a load as fast as a 350hp hemi, although in a real world senario, probibly not, due to gearing.

With proper gearing, a 400hp 4cyl will out accelerate a 350hp hemi. A 350hp hemi will out accelerate a 300hp diesel, although the diesel will have more torque. See what I mean?

quote Originally posted by Unrivaled: Your theory has merit if you are only looking for the end result of accomplishing that goal. But what about everything leading up to the goal? If my goal is to travel 20 miles they are many ways to accomplish that. I can walk, jog, run, cycle, drive, take a bus or train. But which one is more practical within a given scenario? That's the key and given this scenario the 4cyl is just not practical even tho it maybe capable of accomplishing the goal.

Why is the 4 cyl not capable? Get it in the right gear, and you are better off than you will be with the Hemi. Then you near redline, and hit the next gear at a perfect RPM to again make great power. WIth proper gear ratios, at WOT the 4 cyl will never be out of its power range, and it will walk the Hemi. Therefore, in my opinion, the 4 cyl would be better in the scenerio he described (towing up a hill at WOT). Now if you are towing, and not shifting at redline, and not going WOT, the Hemi will be better I agree, but not at WOT redline shifts.

A point that hasnt been addressed. Is that 4banger stock? Isnt the 350 horse Dodge stock? Lets see what happens when we mod the Hemi like you modded the 4banger. No contest because there is no substitute for cubic inches. Period. Dont even try to dispute it because once you mod your engine with power adders and etc, you are out of the ballpark, comparison wise. Stock for stock, theres no replacement for displacement. You can make this awesome power at screaming RPMs but guess what... Kenny Bernstein, et al get 6,500 to 7,000hp and ET at around 4 seconds and theyre pushing the envelope nearing or exceding 5 digit RPM ranges. For those of you with the calcs, figure out the torque of an engine capable of what he has listed on his website. He doesnt list torque but hes got trap speed, ET and horsepower.

Engine Supercharged 500 cubic inch TFX Forged Aluminum hemi V-8 block
Bore & Stroke 4.19 x 4.50 inches
Horsepower 6,500
Acceleration Zero to 100 miles per hour in 1.0 seconds [possibly 60'? Still impressive]
Zero to 270 miles per hour in 3.0 seconds [I'm assuming they get this from the 1/8th mile mark]
Zero to 330 miles per hour in 4.5 seconds [I also assume this to be the trap speed and ET]
Weight 2175 pounds (with driver)

So far, youre not really impressing me. You'll never make this kind of power. My point... dont compare your highly modded 4banger against a stock engine. When you can speak these numbers, come talk to me. Until then, you are complete bullshit. To compare in another light... you have 4 cylinders and so far the best I've seen is around 1500 hp max. Twice 4 is 8... twice 1500 is only 3000... just a bit shy of what the big boys play with, doncha think? Its time you sit this one out.

At least this thread has been more or less a gigglefest. I have a customers car in my lot with a sheared axle due to what you cant do, and thats produce torque. Talk to Tom who needs axles that cost $1600 because hes tired of replacing them. What breaks them? Not horsepower. That I can assure you.

wtf are you talking about? Read the original question. This is a modified 400hp 4cyl vs a 350hp stock Hemi. We are not discussing which motor has more potential when modified.

From what I'm getting from all this info is I can tell my Dad that the 4 banger could do it if it was geared right to keep the RPMs right. It might only be able to do it a few times before blowing up but it could do it.

Bonzo

Time for me to chime in on this buddy!!!!!
if it was all displacement all of us would do SBC v8 swaps!!!
this has gone 2 far..........

basically both sides are right BUT its all in the engines design!!!!!!!
think of a ferrari f430 v8 or a 360 modena v8 or even a Enzo v12!!!!!!!

now apply this...... a c5 zo6 corvette has 405 hp and 400 torque right???? and a 360 modena has 400 hp and 275 torque the ferrari is a better engine and WAY less displacement!!!!!!!! 5.7 vs 3.6 a big azz diffrence both are N/A so what the fuss is about(no replacement for displacement?? thats a crock)

the ferrari has DOHC 5 valves per cyinder and has a 8500 rpm redline and the ls6 has a lower redline but more hp 5 and way more torque 125, its the engines ability to carry a given amout of torque to its horsepower peak! hell a car can have 700 lb/ft but only 300 hp and it will suck!!!! now reverse the power figures in a smaller compact high revving design!! 700 h.p. and 300 lb/ft.

a pushrod 6 liter v8 with 300 hp/700ft/lbs 5500 rpm peak
a DOHC 4.5 liter v8 with 700hp/300 ft/lbs 9000 rpm peak

which would you rather have in your fiero or vette or any sports car????
displacement means something but its not everything is cracked up to be !!!!!

hell a viper a 8.3 liter!!! thats a lot of DISPLACEMENT!!!!! but only 500 h.p.??
why ????? BAD DESIGN!!!!! not saying it wont get the job done but too much engine for so little hp

an enzo's v12 makes 150 more h.p. with 2 less liters!!!!!! and donet give me that crap about ITS A V12 ITS BETTER
because a ferrari f430 v8 makes 483 h.p. and its almost 1/2 the size of the vipers v10

now think on that!!!

[This message has been edited by Exotic Rida (edited 07-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: which would you rather have in your fiero or vette or any sports car???? displacement means something but its not everything is cracked up to be !!!!!

That really wasn't what I was asking but you do have a point. The question is wether a 400hp 4 banger could pull the load up a hill and accelerate like the 350hp Hemi did.

Bonzo

quote Originally posted by bonzo: That really wasn't what I was asking but you do have a point. The question is wether a 400hp 4 banger could pull the load up a hill and accelerate like the 350hp Hemi did. Bonzo

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: which would you rather have in your fiero or vette or any sports car???? displacement means something but its not everything is cracked up to be !!!!!

That really wasn't what I was asking but you do have a point. The question is wether a 400hp 4 banger could pull the load up a hill and accelerate like the 350hp Hemi did.

Bonzo

true........
and to think 90% of all cars on the street are HEMI's as in the design of the engine.............

but not saying the hemi is a bad design a 4 banger can make a lot of torque and more hp than the HEMI and pull the load faster you just have to design the 4 banger right..... DOHC (of course) 4 valves per cylinder high redline and variable valve timing and it will pull more than the HEMI!

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: Time for me to chime in on this buddy!!!!! if it was all displacement all of us would do SBC v8 swaps!!! this has gone 2 far.......... basically both sides are right BUT its all in the engines design!!!!!!! think of a ferrari f430 v8 or a 360 modena v8 or even a Enzo v12!!!!!!! now apply this...... a c5 zo6 corvette has 405 hp and 400 torque right???? and a 360 modena has 400 hp and 275 torque the ferrari is a better engine and WAY less displacement!!!!!!!! 5.7 vs 3.6 a big azz diffrence both are N/A so what the fuss is about(no replacement for displacement?? thats a crock) the ferrari has DOHC 5 valves per cyinder and has a 8500 rpm redline and the ls6 has a lower redline but more hp 5 and way more torque 125, its the engines ability to carry a given amout of torque to its horsepower peak! hell a car can have 700 lb/ft but only 300 hp and it will suck!!!! now reverse the power figures in a smaller compact high revving design!! 700 h.p. and 300 lb/ft. a pushrod 6 liter v8 with 300 hp/700ft/lbs 5500 rpm peak a DOHC 4.5 liter v8 with 700hp/300 ft/lbs 9000 rpm peak which would you rather have in your fiero or vette or any sports car???? displacement means something but its not everything is cracked up to be !!!!! hell a viper a 8.3 liter!!! thats a lot of DISPLACEMENT!!!!! but only 500 h.p.?? why ????? BAD DESIGN!!!!! not saying it wont get the job done but too much engine for so little hp an enzo's v12 makes 150 more h.p. with 2 less liters!!!!!! and donet give me that crap about ITS A V12 ITS BETTER because a ferrari f430 v8 makes 483 h.p. and its almost 1/2 the size of the vipers v10 now think on that!!!

Now something for you to consider. Just think of how much more powerful the ferarri would be with that same design if it had more displacement or the displacement of the Corvette.

Another point, not many would prefer a 400hp 4cyl towing thousands of pounds stopped on a steep incline over the hemi.

[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 07-30-2005).]

Back in the turbocharged days of F1 they had 1.5L engines making 1000hp with 60psi of boost. Not like they had a displacement restriction, thats just the lightest most powerful combination they could make. You can't tell me those engines arn't reliable.

quote Originally posted by Exotic Rida: Time for me to chime in on this buddy!!!!! if it was all displacement all of us would do SBC v8 swaps!!! this has gone 2 far.......... basically both sides are right BUT its all in the engines design!!!!!!! think of a ferrari f430 v8 or a 360 modena v8 or even a Enzo v12!!!!!!! now apply this...... a c5 zo6 corvette has 405 hp and 400 torque right???? and a 360 modena has 400 hp and 275 torque the ferrari is a better engine and WAY less displacement!!!!!!!! 5.7 vs 3.6 a big azz diffrence both are N/A so what the fuss is about(no replacement for displacement?? thats a crock) the ferrari has DOHC 5 valves per cyinder and has a 8500 rpm redline and the ls6 has a lower redline but more hp 5 and way more torque 125, its the engines ability to carry a given amout of torque to its horsepower peak! hell a car can have 700 lb/ft but only 300 hp and it will suck!!!! now reverse the power figures in a smaller compact high revving design!! 700 h.p. and 300 lb/ft. a pushrod 6 liter v8 with 300 hp/700ft/lbs 5500 rpm peak a DOHC 4.5 liter v8 with 700hp/300 ft/lbs 9000 rpm peak which would you rather have in your fiero or vette or any sports car???? displacement means something but its not everything is cracked up to be !!!!! hell a viper a 8.3 liter!!! thats a lot of DISPLACEMENT!!!!! but only 500 h.p.?? why ????? BAD DESIGN!!!!! not saying it wont get the job done but too much engine for so little hp an enzo's v12 makes 150 more h.p. with 2 less liters!!!!!! and donet give me that crap about ITS A V12 ITS BETTER because a ferrari f430 v8 makes 483 h.p. and its almost 1/2 the size of the vipers v10 now think on that!!!

Now think on what those engines cost, apply the extra dollars of the expensive engines to parts / machining to build up the engines you mentioned, and you're in for a really big surprise.

If those motors were mass produced, they would be cheap to build. The fact that they are in hand built sports cars is why they are so expensive.

Small displacement multicam engines are just more efficient than 2 valve per cylinder. SBCs and Hemi's are nice, but old tech. Put dohc heads and destroke those engines and then see what happens.

My 4.6L dohc N* makes as much hp stock as a Corvette 5.7L LT1 with more than 1L displacement advantage. The N* is mildly tuned, the LT1 is a fairly hot sbc.

Technology is a replacement for displacement.

Edit cause I can't spell

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 07-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMojo: A point that hasnt been addressed. Is that 4banger stock? Isnt the 350 horse Dodge stock? Lets see what happens when we mod the Hemi like you modded the 4banger.

no **** - but that wasn't the original statement or question - engine vs engine - not engines potential vs the other engines potential

you don't point at a stoxk fiero and say - yeah its got 200potential hp and point at vette and say its got 1800 potential hp - no you state its actual statistics.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Technology is a replacement for displacement.

No it isn't !!! Technology is Technology, when applied correctly the larger displacement is going to win.

Maybe you're too young to remember why the Hemi was banned in NASCAR, or why they made race teams put intake restricter plates on larger displacement engines in many Race Categories such as Forumla 1, etc., etc..

Why don't you talk John Force into running a Northstar next year !

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by crzyone: I am a Power Engineer, I work with this type of stuff every day This engine is 2000hp at 300rpm. It may have 35,000lb/ft of torque, but it still only does 2000hp worth of work. A modified turbocharged N* can do more work.

So, why aren't you using modified Northstars? Certianly they'd be smaller and less expensive.