A 400hp turbo 4 will still kill a 350hp hemi in towing. The turbo 4 has the same powerband as the hemi, just bigger. Hell, an SRT-4 with a stage 3 upgrade puts down
Explain to me why the srt-4 has to rev to 5000rpm to get a load moving? It has just as much torque or more than most V-8s out there.
I'll say it again. The SRT-4 engine in a dodge ram putting down 400hp will out accelerate a 350hp hemi. There is no magic involved, the srt engine just has more power. How hard is to understand? Nobody will put a 4 banger in a big truck, its not practical, but it will pull just as well.
400hp>350hp
Why do you suppose Chrysler doesn't use a stage 3 - 4 SRT motor in their full size vehicles? Would the words torque, and dependability have any bearing? Another question, which motor is more prone toproblems due to neglected maintenance, the modified turbo 4 cyl or the naturally aspirated 8 cyl?
[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 08-02-2005).]
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06:25 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
It is FACT larger displacement with all things being equal, makes more power.
You can mod a small displacement motor to make big power
But bigger motors make bigger power.
I can't see why this has to be argued.
That 4 popper has a turbo then lets put a turbo on that V8
Oh but that 4 popper has a DOHC setup, OK lets get a DOHC Turbo V8 uhm, see where I am going. Wasn't it Callaway that made a Turbo Vette was a small block chevy that mad 800hp on pump gas and could be used as a daily driver.
More displacement means more power assuming all things are equal. Anyone that wants to argue that point is arguing just to argue.
Nobodies arguing that, but things are not equal.. A lot of v8's don't put out a lot of power compared to some 4's, and vice versa.. We were just arguing numbers to numbers, while pointing out that number of cylinders does not matter.
Ok then name a tuner car that can do it straight from the factory with no modifications other than the addition of a hitch?
When this is the question, as some have illuded too, the pulling vehicle's weight comes into play. The lighter vehicle will simply not be able to start/pull/stop a significant load safely due to limitations on traction.
------------------ RickN White 88GT 5spd White 85GT Auto
Dependability is not a factor in the question. Only the ability to pull a load. Please read the question.
Well if a SRT motor can do the same task as a 8 cyl why do you suppose they don't use the 4 cyl in the full size vehicles? I'll take a guess, first the 4 cyl has to move the mass of the vehicle and contents and/or passsengers then it has to move the additioinal weight of whatever it is towing. It takes lots of torque to do that unless you give the 4 cyl multiple forward gears like a semis.
[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 08-02-2005).]
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07:11 PM
DelawareFiero Member
Posts: 1050 From: Tod vor Schmach!! Registered: Apr 2004
The SRT-4 has 365lb/ft!!! read!!!!! Thats more than MOST V-8s offered in FULL SIZED PICKUPS!!!! This is not at high rpms! Why do you need tall gearing..... Jebus.
This is a kit offered by Mopar. If it wasn't reliable they wouldn't have sold the kit. V-8s are low hp/L, perfect fur pulling and reliability. Truck V-8s are not hot rod motors, they are rather pathetic.
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07:16 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
28psi????? Daily Driver, YIKES!!! Race Gas Daily Driver, YIKES!!!
Put those same variables on the VIPER engine and see who gets DESTROYED!!
Like I said
some peoples kids
That dyno is in a high hp car. Low rpm torque is only a factor in 1st gear in a drag race. All other gears will land the motor in its powerband, and yes it will walk a stock viper from a roll.
Speaking of pathetic motors, 8L and only 500hp? Turbo vipers are badass but stock they are not that impressive. They are fast, but they could be fast with a much smaller engine.
The SRT-4 has 365lb/ft!!! read!!!!! Thats more than MOST V-8s offered in FULL SIZED PICKUPS!!!! This is not at high rpms! Why do you need tall gearing..... Jebus.
This is a kit offered by Mopar. If it wasn't reliable they wouldn't have sold the kit. V-8s are low hp/L, perfect fur pulling and reliability. Truck V-8s are not hot rod motors, they are rather pathetic.
I didn't ask what numbers the SRT was doing. I asked why doesn't Chrysler use it in their full size vehicles? What about answering my question on maintenence also?
[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 08-02-2005).]
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07:20 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Because its not practical. The question did not pertain to practicality or reliability, only the ability to pull the load. Please read the question.
The question is could a 4 cyl tuner car do that task. Implicit in the question is can a tuner car setup for normal everyday driving/racing do it. I think not when you think about that question. Remember in addition to hp and torques you also need proper weight distribution to transfer that power to the ground. I don't think a lightweight FWD car fits the bill.
[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 08-02-2005).]
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07:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
All I imply is a 400hp motor is more powerful than a 350hp motor, no matter what their dyno's look like or how many cylinders they have. Obviously a "tuner" car does not have the weight, brakes or transmission to tow. Put the engine in the exact same vehical and the 400hp motor will pull more.
Because its not practical. The question did not pertain to practicality or reliability, only the ability to pull the load. Please read the question.
The original poster sounds like a young member. Just simply answering the question ("...Could a 4 banger boasting that much hp and torque do that and if not why?...), which is yes, would be irresponsible if the answer was not put into proper context.
------------------ RickN White 88GT 5spd White 85GT Auto
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07:44 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
He said now let me see one of those 4 bangers do that. I didn't know what to say. Could a 4 banger boasting that much hp and torque do that and if not why?
Where do you see the type of vehical the motor is in? All that is said is can a 4 banger tow the load, and the answer is yes.
I showed my Dad some articles of these Tuner cars getting 400+ hp and torque. He was amazed at the power they're getting out of these 4 bangers.
Crzyone, let's keep things in context. You notice where the son mentioned he showed his dad a article on Tuner Cars? Then the dad states he'd like to see a 4 banger do that. Now I think most would assume the dad is talking about a 4 cyl tuner car doing it as opposed to a 4 cyl dodge ram, but hey I could be wrong.
Please read the question in proper context.
[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 08-02-2005).]
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07:52 PM
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4547 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
The arguement is moot unless they are both towing a 500lb trailer, then the 4cyl would still win. A 4cyl car is not going to pull an 8000lb trailor, it wouldn't even come up as a comparison would it? Thats why I assumed the 4cyl would be in the larger vehical.
Yeah, that would be 8" total movement per revolution.
Oh, and the speed at TDC and BTC is 0 mph. That would put the max piston speed at 2x your calculated speed per distance, but it's not linear acceleration. The acceleration graph will be a sine wave, and I'm not remembering off hand how much impact that will have, but it will make the max speed less than that 2x theoretical max for the linear acceleration model.
Oops, I misread how Jazz was calculating it. As far as the peak speed goes, the peak of a sine wave is 1.6 times the average of the whole wave. So if the average speed were 363 mph, the peak would be 580 mph. The 273 mph would be 437 mph.
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08:52 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Your kidding us right? We just spent 2 days explaining this.. 400 lb/ft is 400 lb/ft..
Unrivalled is right.
400lb is 400lb but as everyone has pointed out. It does not matter a rats a$$ if it has 1000lbs of torque if it can only make it at a very narrow power band. If you try to go in one gear you will over rev that power band and loose power, so you hit the next gear but it drops the power band too low and you loose your power.
If you are going to make a itsy bitsy teeny weeny motor make massive power you end up giving up the longer power band of a larger motor.
You would have to keep that 4 popper in its power band.
That is what has been decided over the past 2 days.
You can tell your dad "one of those four-bangers" could do it. Not a stock one, but a highly modified one could.
More displacement per cylinder generally means more torque. This is why semi truck engines are so huge, yet have only six cylinders. They need to create torque because they have heavy loads to carry (I escort oversize loads).
However, the ricers only need to move a few thousand pounds of car. Therefore, they're built (whether stock or modified) with that in mind. It is possible to built a four-banger that could do it, but unlikely that most people would go to the trouble of building a four-banger powered car for it. People who want high-powered cars do it for speed, not towing.
As for traction . . . a four-banger with rear wheel drive, wide tires with a good-sized contact patch and that much weight on the back would have plenty, I'm sure.
The last consideration is the size of the power band, as mentioned. I didn't understand until recently that two cars that both have 300hp and 300 ft/lbs tq might not be equal, because they could have completely different power curves. This is what transmissions are for - and that's why I say a four-banger could do it, because you can shift to keep it in the power range best-suited to it - but if you have to shift all the time, while the other car is making the same power in the same gear that you have to go through several gears to maintain . . . well, you're beat.
Anyone feel free to correct me if any of this is wrong. My intent is just to help answer the original question.
The last consideration is the size of the power band, as mentioned. I didn't understand until recently that two cars that both have 300hp and 300 ft/lbs tq might not be equal, because they could have completely different power curves. This is what transmissions are for - and that's why I say a four-banger could do it, because you can shift to keep it in the power range best-suited to it - but if you have to shift all the time, while the other car is making the same power in the same gear that you have to go through several gears to maintain . . . well, you're beat.
Anyone feel free to correct me if any of this is wrong. My intent is just to help answer the original question.
Not correcting you at all, just stating that a larger displacement engine doesn't necessarily have a larger powerband (in fact, it's usually the opposite), but taht powerband starts at a lower RPM.. But as stated, thats what stall converters are for.. I'd rather have my 4banger make larger numbers from 3k-6.5k than from 1k-2500k....
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12:28 AM
865spd Member
Posts: 805 From: Tri-Cities, Washington, USA Registered: Oct 2004
**** people come on. 4 bangers are not made for towing and we all know V8's have lower torque end. We know a 4 cylinder car could not pull as much as a truck. what more are we arguing about? If a high powered 4 banger was good for pulling then they would already have one in a truck right?
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03:04 AM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Originally posted by Unrivaled: I didn't ask what numbers the SRT was doing. I asked why doesn't Chrysler use it in their full size vehicles? What about answering my question on maintenence also?
because NOONE would buy it. when you buy an oversized vehicle, it must have an oversized engine, to carry the oversized ass. instead of "yeah, its got a Hemi" it would be "yeah, its got a 4 banger" - it just wont sell..... and what about maintenence? thats what warrenty's are for. drive it untill it makes noises, then take it to the dealer. WTF?
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09:46 AM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Not correcting you at all, just stating that a larger displacement engine doesn't necessarily have a larger power band (in fact, it's usually the opposite), but taht powerband starts at a lower RPM.. But as stated, thats what stall converters are for.. I'd rather have my 4banger make larger numbers from 3k-6.5k than from 1k-2500k....
Uh ya Uh Huh, the 2 pulse fire per rotation 4cyl has a broader power range than the 4 pulse per rotation V8. Uhm ya OK Johnny. LOL. Maybe if it was a 2 stroke.
Uh ya Uh Huh, the 2 pulse fire per rotation 4cyl has a broader power range than the 4 pulse per rotation V8. Uhm ya OK Johnny. LOL. Maybe if it was a 2 stroke.
Sigh.. You're right.. A 4cyl could never have a broader power band than a v8.. You ARE kidding right?? Perhaps this is the wrong hobby for you?
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12:13 PM
PFF
System Bot
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Sigh.. You're right.. A 4cyl could never have a broader power band than a v8.. You ARE kidding right?? Perhaps this is the wrong hobby for you?
See there you are "could" I am not talking about "What if I" or "Ya you could boost" if all things being equal a 4cly motor DOES NOT have a broader power band than a V8. You can take a 2.5 Duke and toss enough Nitrous at it to give it torque at 500 rpms. But Motor to Motor, Turbo to Turbo, V8's have a more even torque curve than 4cyl's. That is a simple fact of life.
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12:56 PM
Aug 4th, 2005
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
See there you are "could" I am not talking about "What if I" or "Ya you could boost" if all things being equal a 4cly motor DOES NOT have a broader power band than a V8. You can take a 2.5 Duke and toss enough Nitrous at it to give it torque at 500 rpms. But Motor to Motor, Turbo to Turbo, V8's have a more even torque curve than 4cyl's. That is a simple fact of life.
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. Please stop, its embarassing.....
Didn't we just dicuss that the number of cylinders has ZERO bearing on how a motor performes or its "powerband"? Look at a caddy 4.9 and look at a ferrari V-8. The ferrari has the same powerband of a NA high hp 4cyl. The 4.9 has the powerband of a diesel engine. How can you say to me that a V-8 has a broader powerband? It has nothing to do with the number of cylinders like that comparison shows.
Lets put 2 4.9's together to make a V-16. It should have a broad powerband right, look at all those cylinders and power pulses.... Wow, it makes 400hp and 550lb/ft. Not bad for a 9.8L engine. As you can most obviously see, adding or subtractiong cylinders does not make for a better powerband. The powerband is exactly the same as a 4.9 times 2. Take 4 cylinders away, its powerband is the same devided by 2.
What defines a motors powerband is its stroke vs bore, its VE, its cam, number of valves, rocker ratio etc etc. Its not its number of cylinders. Please tell me you understand.
Yes, a 5.7L V-8 makes alot of torque, but a 5.7L V-4 would make just as much assuming it has the same VE.
Small displacement 4cyl forced induction motors can have a very broad powerband, as shown by the srt-4 stage 3 dyno numbers. If you lack displacement, forced induction makes up for it. There is absolutly no reason a 400hp 4cyl forced induction engine would not beat a 350hp NA V-8. They both have broad powerbands, the 4cyl motor is just more powerful. Again, the 4cyl 400hp motor is MORE POWERFUL.
It could be a NA 400hp 4cyl motor with a 10k rpm redline. As long as the gearing is suited to the motor for pulling, it will outpull a V-8. It would be very impractical, and starting out at 4000rpm would be more than annoying, but it would pull the load.
[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 08-04-2005).]
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03:17 AM
CTFieroGT87 Member
Posts: 2520 From: Royal Oak, MI Registered: Oct 2002
It seems like everyone is looking at peak hp and tq numbers and simply comparing. What I notice most tuner guys never grasp is that average hp and tq is the most important value. The average torque value for a V8 with 350ft/lbs peak across 1000-5000rpms might be 280-300ft/lbs. While an I4 with 400ft/lbs peak across 1000-to say 6000rpms would only average 200-250ft/lbs. (Theoretical numbers here). I choose the V8 because its much more consistent when I push the pedal, regardless of what rpm I'm at.
------------------ Christian Thomas 87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd 301rwhp/345rwtq Next Mod: Not sure yet
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11:13 AM
Exotic Rida Member
Posts: 563 From: new orleans louisiana, now displaced to atlanta Registered: Jan 2004
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. Please stop, its embarassing.....
Didn't we just dicuss that the number of cylinders has ZERO bearing on how a motor performes or its "powerband"? Look at a caddy 4.9 and look at a ferrari V-8. The ferrari has the same powerband of a NA high hp 4cyl. The 4.9 has the powerband of a diesel engine. How can you say to me that a V-8 has a broader powerband? It has nothing to do with the number of cylinders like that comparison shows.
Lets put 2 4.9's together to make a V-16. It should have a broad powerband right, look at all those cylinders and power pulses.... Wow, it makes 400hp and 550lb/ft. Not bad for a 9.8L engine. As you can most obviously see, adding or subtractiong cylinders does not make for a better powerband. The powerband is exactly the same as a 4.9 times 2. Take 4 cylinders away, its powerband is the same devided by 2.
What defines a motors powerband is its stroke vs bore, its VE, its cam, number of valves, rocker ratio etc etc. Its not its number of cylinders. Please tell me you understand.
Yes, a 5.7L V-8 makes alot of torque, but a 5.7L V-4 would make just as much assuming it has the same VE.
Small displacement 4cyl forced induction motors can have a very broad powerband, as shown by the srt-4 stage 3 dyno numbers. If you lack displacement, forced induction makes up for it. There is absolutly no reason a 400hp 4cyl forced induction engine would not beat a 350hp NA V-8. They both have broad powerbands, the 4cyl motor is just more powerful. Again, the 4cyl 400hp motor is MORE POWERFUL.
It could be a NA 400hp 4cyl motor with a 10k rpm redline. As long as the gearing is suited to the motor for pulling, it will outpull a V-8. It would be very impractical, and starting out at 4000rpm would be more than annoying, but it would pull the load.
exactly my point!!!!!!!!!!! a small motor can pull as godd as or better than a larger engine ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN! you can take a ferrari F430 v8 4.3L DOHC variable timing,high revving 483 hp 343 fb/ft a hemi is 5.7L! low revving pushrod do u really think it can tow like a HEMI???????
hell no....... it will tow tons better because of the longer powerband!!!
It seems like everyone is looking at peak hp and tq numbers and simply comparing. What I notice most tuner guys never grasp is that average hp and tq is the most important value. The average torque value for a V8 with 350ft/lbs peak across 1000-5000rpms might be 280-300ft/lbs. While an I4 with 400ft/lbs peak across 1000-to say 6000rpms would only average 200-250ft/lbs. (Theoretical numbers here). I choose the V8 because its much more consistent when I push the pedal, regardless of what rpm I'm at.
Your talking about the powerband, which is what everyone is talking about.
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11:43 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
exactly my point!!!!!!!!!!! a small motor can pull as godd as or better than a larger engine ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN! you can take a ferrari F430 v8 4.3L DOHC variable timing,high revving 483 hp 343 fb/ft a hemi is 5.7L! low revving pushrod do u really think it can tow like a HEMI???????
hell no....... it will tow tons better because of the longer powerband!!!
The ferrari Has a HIGHER powerband, not nessecarily a longer one. And in the real world, Even if the gearing was there, a ferrari engine would were itself out really fast if you tried to tow with it. I mean you'd burn that motor out quick.
I might have misunderstood your post, I don't know maybe you're defending the pushrod here, I actually can't tell. So you might work on being more specific when you're posting?
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11:47 AM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Untill you have an infinatly variable transmission that keeps the engine at its peak output ALL the time... then powerband does matter.
My NA Quad 4 puts out just a hair less power then a 4.9, and if both had the perfect transmission, the 4.9 would edge the quad 4 out. (barring weight differences) Both are "high compression" motors, the 4.9 is well more then twice the engine. The 4.9 is FAR more drivable due to the fairly flat torque curve down low, and it "feels" faster, and it is a V8, but the Quad 4 can just about keep up, if the gearing is done just right. And that's without any boost. The Q4 still gets better gas mileage (given the 4.9 does get really good mileage for a V8...) and overall is more efficient.
Now, lets just say you took the 4.9 and slapped the Quad 4's heads on it, and cranked the compression to match. You would be left with an engine that is really peaky with the horsepower, somewhere just above around 360 horses at the wheels. the torque would go up more, at about 310 at the wheels. Up from 170 hp, and 260 tq at the wheels. So what does this mean?
Horsepower is an ideal measurement of power only in an ideal world. (automotivly speaking) Torque is a nice measurement of force, but force does not necessarily mean power. Sure a 4 cyl can be better, faster and more efficient then an 8, but if the 8 is built exactly the same as the 4, then its twice as powerful and half as economical, but still as efficient. So, there IS no replacment for displacment. Number of cylenders does not mean displacment, There are tiny 8 cyl's out there and HUGE 4 cyls. If you want more power, get a bigger motor, and apply the same technology as you did your little motor. If you boost a 4 and think you're onto something, try boosting the 8 and see how it does. Power band always applies, unless you have an infinatly variable transmission, that is also efficient. If you can make X amount of power only at 10,000 RPMs... Untill you can keep it at or near 10,000 RPM's for the entire quarter mile, it doesn't mean much. Boost can effectivly "multiply the displacment" of ANY engine, not JUST your 4 cyl.
I really hate it when 4-cylinder guys argue that their engine is better, when its supercharged or turbocharged. Like I can't SC or turbo my V8 too .
Is your V8 turbo or supercharged? Cuz hey, wait, O look, yep, my four cylinder ALREADY is TURBO'D
It's not that 4 cylinder people think that V8 guys CAN'T do something, it's just that 99% DON'T do it. So arguing that you could turbo your V8 is rather pointless cuz you're not going to.
NOT TO MENTION, it has NOTHING to do with THIS argument
this horse is dead....
