My commentary will be on the car alone... I feel that I'm not in a position to comment on any of WCF's actions relating to the other stuff- and I'll leave it at that.
I was lucky enough to be attending FOCOA National Events back in the early 90s. So I was lucky enough to see the Fieros that Pontiac was willing to display at that time. I have pics of the Hot Rod SD "hornet" car, the real factory roadster, an original Indy Pace car, a PPG Pacecar (fastback), and I think there was another one- all sitting on the steps in front of the Pontiac building. Anyway- at that time, we were told that Pontiac would never show the Prototype cars to anyone in public. Ever.
When WCF started their posts about the event, I bit my tounge. Maybe I should have tried to raise doubt- but I didn't feel it was appropriate. Anyway- I was unsure of how exactly Peterson could have acquired a car that Pontiac wouldn't ever let out of their sight. Think of the collection of photos that exist of the 89-90 prototype: Pontiac supplied photos (maybe 6-8 shots at the most), a couple of shots from an Australian tour group who somehow found themselves in Pontiac storage yard, and the Video that FieroJohn-WI accidentally acquried at a swap meet. That's it. Pontiac never even allowed the car to visit an auto show (Detroit, Paris, Japan)- why would they show it to a bunch of ethusiasts?
I'm not slamming WCF here- they were given misinformation regarding the car, by the museum. That's difficult to get around. And I understand that their request for a "preview" was refused. I just think I'd have at least been a bit more skeptical in my publicity of the event.
Well... that's my commentary on what happened & I'll keep any other thoughts/comments about WCF to myself- as it would be inappropriate for me to say anything further!
I suppose that WCF could have attempted a little more investigation (Ask about vin's or SOMETHING), but give them credit guys they went though alot of work to set the thing up, THEY were being told by the museum guys it was a 89, why should they NOT beleive the guys it IS their museum.
As for WCF itself I havn't dealt with them personally so I won't comment on them.
Sounds like they tried real hard to set up a cool event, and things got kinda messed....
I suppose a public apology from them wouldn't be out of line.
As for getting lost?
IF you were dumb enough to NOT know where you were going, and DUMB enough not to bring a map and DUMB enough not to PLAN AHEAD so you knew where you were going and WHERE to turn and HOW to get there... That's your tough monkeys people, GET ORGANIZED why the hell do people have to hold your hand in that regard.
When I travel I carry a map, a backup map, directions that I create (internet, tripmaker) and phone numbers for other people, homes, cell's whatever. I also carry a GPS which I use for personal navigation, but I still do ALL the manual backup work incase even that dies.
I drove my way to Oley, PA for the PA tech day, Got their fine, got a TAD lost when I made a wrong turn, but I GOT THERE, cause I HAD A MAP....
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10:18 AM
mbramble Member
Posts: 852 From: Cantonment, FL Registered: Dec 1999
I for one feel that WCF doesnt no sh*t. I see all kinds of bad things they do on here. I am so glad I dotn live there or have ever had them work on my car. When u set up a big tour like this , u check things out. Why didnt WCF take a earlier tour before opening their mouths??? why didnt WCF, ask to see pics or anything??? does WCF know what a Fiero is??
I for one hope thsi will be the demise of WCF. I habe heard abotu bad cluthces, bad service and now this.
WCF, you are scammers just trying to plug yoru business.
Archie, you saw it coming adn you will know pick up all their business. I am so glad I didnt go there and waste my money and time.
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10:48 AM
Fino Member
Posts: 812 From: St. Johns, MI. USA Registered: Jan 2002
Originally posted by 86seyellow: I for one feel that WCF doesnt no sh*t. I see all kinds of bad things they do on here. I am so glad I dotn live there or have ever had them work on my car. When u set up a big tour like this , u check things out. Why didnt WCF take a earlier tour before opening their mouths??? why didnt WCF, ask to see pics or anything??? does WCF know what a Fiero is??
I for one hope thsi will be the demise of WCF. I habe heard abotu bad cluthces, bad service and now this.
WCF, you are scammers just trying to plug yoru business.
Archie, you saw it coming adn you will know pick up all their business. I am so glad I didnt go there and waste my money and time.
hahahaha...why don't you learn to read the thread first(before bashing) and then learn to spell or were you in such a hurry to bash wcf that you forgot how too.
as for the last bit, where do you think the customers that have had bad dealing with archie go to? yes, West Coast Fiero. and yes they have more pictures of differant cars. and no, i'm not going to post more pics cuz i don't need Chris on my back. that could/maybe/probably/(plug in whatever) be why archie was pissed off..knowing wcf gets some of his old customers.
[This message has been edited by Sleeper (edited 03-03-2002).]
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10:53 AM
SKIDMARK Member
Posts: 1350 From: Chardon, Ohio, USA Registered: Sep 2001
If we could get over the name-calling and accusations, it would be nice to see some more pic's of the car PLEASE! Isn't that what this whole thread was supposed to be about anyway or is this just another flame war. This kind of cr@p happens all to often anymore.
Originally posted by 86seyellow: I for one feel that WCF doesnt no sh*t. I see all kinds of bad things they do on here. I am so glad I dotn live there or have ever had them work on my car. When u set up a big tour like this , u check things out. Why didnt WCF take a earlier tour before opening their mouths??? why didnt WCF, ask to see pics or anything??? does WCF know what a Fiero is??
I for one hope thsi will be the demise of WCF. I habe heard abotu bad cluthces, bad service and now this.
WCF, you are scammers just trying to plug yoru business.
from what I understand.. they DID ask to see the car before, and were turned down... WTF makes you think WCF are a bunch of scammers who don't know anything about Fieros??
I agree, it sucks big time that the museum screwed up and there wasn't an 89/90 prototype there.. and it also sucks that 4 people were left stranded.. that was poor planning.. but I've experienced the same thing in many places, especially Canada..(see comment below) Doesn't mean all Canadians are like that, and it doesn't mean all californians are like that.
I can understand why people would wish the demise of the Fieroshop... but d@mn, lately any time anything happens, people start saying they hope someone goes out of business! If I were in California, I wouldn't hesitate to have WCF work on my car.. I wouldn't count on receiving directions though (I use mapquest for that)
I'm just getting tired of all the flaming. yes, people screwed up. yes, people are mad. I find it hard to believe that WCF intentionally left anyone, knowing that they did not know where to go. I want to believe this was a misunderstanding, but I can definitely see where Chester, Elvira, Boomtastic & MsBeth are coming from in this situation.
I grew up in a small town, and I've found the same "every man for himself" mentality in every city I've been to, not just american ones. it really depends on the people involved though.
Originally posted by Boomtastic: Eric had a list of names that were attending. Hell - HE made the list himself, and checked off people before the group even left WCF. What happened to that list? (Probably got lost on the 60MPH+ ride down Sunset Blvd.) Why didn't someone use that to keep the group together? It was every person for himself once the cars started rolling towards the museum.
It would now seem that you are missing something. Were you offering "Hooked on Phonics" because you thought you were done with it?
There were over 60 people in the group that was supposed to be only around 40. The 32 Duece coupe showing had the two top levels of the parking structure filled and it had become a media event with Jay Leno and Tim Allen attending.
Did you NOT notice how many people were in line to get into the museum? Did you NOT notice or consider the logistical nightmare of trying to keep a caravan together on the streets of LA? Perhaps you failed to notice that they took us down to the basement in a freight elevator and it took two loads to get us all down there. And this was a tour that was supposed to top off at 35 people. Or did that slip under your keen observations on the Forum discussions?
I know for certain that you wouldn't have known that there were some that had to leave for other destinations (work, other appointments for the day etc.) right after coming out of the vault. Others went through the museum and checked out the sights. Everyone at a different pace. I know of one person in our group that took a half hour just looking at and video taping the vintage gas pumps because they collect that kind of thing. Others zipped through to go and see the Hot Rod show outside, while others still skipped the cars all together to marvel at the motorcycle section. Were we supposed to keep track of them? Were we supposed to have the where abouts of everyone in the group known at all times? Did you expect to be sent a permission slip for your parents to sign before this trip?
I will clue you in on one thing. Everyone was a grown up. Everyone was more than capable to go and find what interested them in this fine Automotive Museum all by themselves. I for one would have found having a school outing format (did you want everyone to hold hands and then take roll at the end of the day? Is that the kind of organization that you need?) too confining. We know that different people have different tastes and different paces so we were not about to go and try to keep that many people together in an already busy place. Its unrealistic.
Yet you still insist on being bitter on an honest mistake. You still insist on being insulting on an outing that did not go as well as any of us hoped. A mistake that I did apologize for. Out of that number of people (considering that a lot of us were from out of town, had never been to the museum before or were just along for the ride)that did have a good time, you got lost, got left behind, and then got bitter. Well, it is still possibe that your apparent theory that we set this whole thing up just to piss YOU off may be inaccurate.
Eric did work hard not to just get this event together but to also have a group get together and have a good time. We learned some lessons from mistakes that we would hope not to repeat in the future.
We learned that even museums misunderstand Fieros. We learned that PCH can get turned into a parking lot because one traffic signal intersection begins to malfunction. We learned that even with maps and itineraries we might still lose someone (even when we put them on our website: http://clubs.hemmings.com/fieroswest/Peterson%20Tour.htm). We learned that we do need to find out of people from out of town who may be intimidated by downtown Los Angeles and have someone "buddy up" with them to keep them in pace with the rest of us. (I myself do get intimidated by LA because I do not travel that far into downtown. So Larry, from San Diego, and I stuck close to Keith and Phil Huff's Fiero.)
We put on this event because we thought we had something to share with the Fiero community. We were misled by an honest mistake that even our Vault Guide apologized for. Hindsight is always 20/20. I apologize to Boomtastic, not for WCF because they have very little to apologize for, but for not being as organized in the way that YOU see fit. It might be easier to organize things in Wareham, MA but they can get pretty fouled up around here even with the most detailed of planning.
And while we are calling 'em as we see'em, I personally learned that there are still some people that will come to LA and need to be given a detailed map of LA, told exactly where to be and what to do in a rigid schedule, given a list of phone numbers to call if they get seperated (culled?) from the herd and a place to meet if they get lost.
We have a small group of people here in LA, but they usually need their own helmet and ride a special bus. We could have at least gotten an autocross racing helmet for you, Boom!
You are right though. We could have done more to make sure that you had a better time....
Thank you to all the people who did come from out of state, out of town and for those select few that came from out of their mind to join us.
At the end of the night, we recounted our adventures, our misfortunes and shook hands with a lot of new friends. It was good to meet logicdragon, sleeper, Al and a lot of the people who I know primarily from their screen name rather than their given name.
Its a credit to Cliff's hard work and organization that we have gotten together. We have already taken the lessons learned from this event and finding ways to apply them to Western Regionals in Truckee.
And for anyone who really is unfamiliar with an event or is prone to get lost, do let coordinators know so that they can have someone keep an eye out for them. Perhaps next time we can have everyone talk about the good time they had.
[This message has been edited by WKDFIRO (edited 03-03-2002).]
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01:07 PM
Smoooooth GT Member
Posts: 8823 From: Lake Palestine, Texas Registered: Jun 2001
Originally posted by Sleeper: there was more than the supposed 30 people in town, more like 50, so of course they are going to party. [b]so why do you keep saying that? humor me please...
[/B]
I say that because every post from Eric mention's alcohol.. Like he's alway's buzzed.... You know there were VERY FEW PEOPLE from out of town like Chester and them... How hard would it have been for Chris West to say "Thank you for coming soooo far to attend one of our event's." He could have done that after everybody was outside... That way everyone would have been leaving at the same time. No one would have gotten left..... I'm not saying hold thier hand's.. Just could have said a few thing;s to them afterword's instead of just bailing without anything at all!!!!! It was just one of the RUDEST thing's I have EVER heard of!! I STILL DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE MUSEUM DID'NT EVEN KNOW THAT IT WAS AN 84 INSTEAD OF AN 89-90!!!! Ya'll should have at least been a little sceptical and not advertised a 89-90 unless you knew for sure!! As many people that WCF deal's with in the Fiero Community, Don't you think that someone would have already seen it???? I guess IF I was in Chris's shoe's and had Fu(ked up that BAD.. I would have run out too....... To sum it all up in 2 word's... YA'LL SUCK!!!!!!!!
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01:36 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
As for maps, etc? Maybe it *could* have been handled better. Maybe a little attention could have been paid to those from *way* out of the area?
In the end though, I'm a big boy. If you give me an address, or just lat/long cords, I'll find my way there.
All in all though, sounds like kind of a bummer guys. Sorry.
Best! Ben.
(Glad I didn't blow off work! ;0)
quote
Originally posted by DaRkLoRD: I've experienced the same thing in many places, especially Canada..(see comment below) Doesn't mean all Canadians are like that, and it doesn't mean all californians are like that.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
well all i have to say is,i had a good time, i was disapointed in the car but i really felt bad for the out of towners that came so far,but atleast it was a shot at seeing a car we all are dieing to see,i myself enjoyed myself and it was nice to meet everyone, i do however feel bad that i didn't say good buy to chester and his wife and boomtastic and his wife,very nice people and i hope we will see each other some time again,wkd it was nice to meet you also, plus the others that were there,i myself had a little problem,when we got to the musuem, i left my keys locked in my car, and i had to call AAA to get them out,i would of stayed more but i had to leave at that time,so again i say thanks wcf for at least trying, and i hope to go for more events in the future,yours truely, AL. 84 Idy 4 speed 86 GT 89 WS6 GTA 5.7L
------------------
[This message has been edited by AL (edited 03-03-2002).]
Well this all seems to be one HELLUVA mixup! Who's fault? Who knows? I've read through all of the posts here and I think that the blame should be laid on the museum for lying about having an 89/90 prototype. Yes some people did get lost, bad directions whatever, I wasn't there, so I don't know what went on with that, so I'm not going to comment.
But my main point for this post is, it's the museums fault for lying about having an 89/90 prototype. So is there any legal action that can be taken out against the museum to cover people expenses for the wasted trip?
Instead of arguing, you people should think about that as a possibility. That way you might get some money back.
------------------ Dan 1985 Silver GT
400HP LT1 Conversion has begun......
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05:38 PM
Smoooooth GT Member
Posts: 8823 From: Lake Palestine, Texas Registered: Jun 2001
Hey Smooth, as far as I can tell, you did not attend this event. I think that pretty much negates your right to be a total prick about all this. I really don't think the New Hampshire folks really need you to take up for them.
Remind me not to invite you to anything I might orginze. I'd hate to see you get lost or run out of gas or snag your hangnail due to my lack of consideration.
And for anyone who visits LA to see ONE CAR(?!) and can't find anything else of interest to see without it being pointed out for them, I pity y'all. For those who don't know, the Petersen Museum is the automotive equivialent of the Smithsonian. Widen the horizon folks. Sometimes Space Mountain is shut down at Disneyland, too.
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08:29 PM
BAM-BAM Member
Posts: 2258 From: Las Vegas, Nv. Registered: Feb 2000
All I can say about WCF is that I have been a guest in their shop and have purchased products form them. I have never had a single missdealing with Chris or Eric and found them to be very personable. I guess it's all in what you expect out of people. California is a very busy place and the pace is nerve racking for those of us who don't visit regularly. Soootah and I know what the I-10 and I-605 Parking lots are like and the general pace of everyday, everyone traffic is far quicker than a measly 60MPH down Sunset Blvd. I'm sure if Chester, Boomtastic and the others contact Eric or Chris "PRIVATELY" they will find them to be rather embarrassed and appologetic about the whole situation. I give them credit for their effort and feel bad that they had to be lied to about the 89. Chock it up to experience and move on. Take Care!!!
Peace, B2 OUT!
------------------ 85GT 3.4L Eibachs and Poly's 17" Konig Monsoons Kumho Ecstas Interior is all "Mike'd" up
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08:38 PM
Smoooooth GT Member
Posts: 8823 From: Lake Palestine, Texas Registered: Jun 2001
Remind me not to invite you to anything I might orginze. I'd hate to see you get lost or run out of gas or snag your hangnail due to my lack of consideration.
B]
Thanks Stimpy... I don't think I even mentioned you ..??? Why are you even saying anything to me??? Are you part of WCF??? It does'nt matter if they need me to take up for them... I'm not taking up for them... I just pointing out the FACT that WCF are RUDE F^CKING PRICK'S!!!! Thank you Stimpy for NOT realizing my point that tthe East Coast people did'nt even get a Thank you for attending my event!! They just got left!! hank you Stimpy.. I was hoping to meet you this summer sometime... I guess I'll just have to try and just stay here on this side of the state line..??..
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08:42 PM
stimpy Member
Posts: 8197 From: Salinas, CA Registered: Jan 2000
OK... I AM DONE WITH THIS THREAD OK... ANYONE HAVE THE # TO WCF?? I TRIED TO GET IT OFF THE WEB PAGE BUT IT WON'T OPEN..i'LL GIVE THEM A CALL INSTEAD OF POSTING ANYMORE!!!! I apologize to all PFF member's for my action's in this thread... Sorry Cliff!!! Everyone know's that I am NOT NORMALLY like this but... It just got to me that they were that rude !!! I just need the # to the shop or even Chris West house!!
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09:37 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
------------------ ( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor bastard ) :) Eric Nelson Technician, West Coast Fiero 310-305-4111
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10:01 PM
Sleeper Member
Posts: 726 From: Torrance, Ca Registered: Mar 2000
Stimpy, WCF, grinthock, artherd, WKDFIRO and others; I think the real issue here as far as the waaay out of towners goes, wasn't so much the fact that the 89-90 wasn't there. It also wasn't that those that traveled so far didn't have maps, or directions or other places to go. It was the fact that WCF set this weekend event up, with the MAIN attraction of the weekend being the non existent 89-90 Fiero. WCF were the hosts. If you are a guest and/or visitor in the hands of the hosts/event coordinators, you tend to believe when they say they will have everything set up, especially for those coming litterally from the other side of the country. This is what they led everyone to believe, and these people took them at their word. If Boomtastic, Ms. Beth, Chester, Elvira and others had been led to believe that once the tour was over, everyone was litterally on their own minutes after it was done, I bet they would have prepared a little differently. Don't you?
Now, the 89-90 prototype Fiero turns into a big -ooops-, and once the tour is over apparently the "hosts" blasted outa there and tried to wipe their hands clean of the mess. "Oh, some had other appointments, had to go to work, blah, blah blah. Nice try. The 89-90 screw up may not have been directly WCF's fault, but they certainly didn't do anything to make the rest of the weekend memorable for anyone, instead they blasted outa there leaving them all behind not knowing what was going on. Nice hosts.
"(did you want everyone to hold hands and then take roll at the end of the day? Is that the kind of organization that you need?)"
This attitude of wanting Boomtastic and other "guests" to stop whining about wanting someone to have held their hands is just plain rediculous. It is THIS attitude which is what they are saying they didn't like. They didn't like it then, and they certainly do not like it now either. As for some others who have posted their feelings on this including myself, we obviously don't like hearing this kinda attitude within the Fiero community either.
Obviously their were some who didn't do enough investigating before advertising what they did. OK, maybe the museum wouldn't allow a sneak peak. Maybe the museum didn't really know what they had. Maybe the museum didn't have knowledgeable employees. Maybe, maybe, maybe. You can't tell me that WCF being not far from the museum, couldn't go talk to, call or e-mail someone else at the museum until they found someone that was "in the know". But the big boo boo here was that WCF didn't show any hospitality once the tour/main event was over. They then didn't show any remorse for what happened. No opology, no nothing. Even if they had been duped a bit themselves, they still should have remembered that they were the hosts and event cooordinators for the trip >to and from< the museum.
I wasn't there either. However, I know Chester, Elvira, Boomtastic and Ms. Beth personally. They are not whiners or cry babies. They don't need people to hold their hands. They are nice people who obviously had a bad situation made worst by hosts who have no clue how to show any hosptitality. WCF and a few others are the ones crying the loudest, complaining about others the longest, stating over and over that it wasn't "their" fault, and insulting the intelligence of their guests after "they" left their guests standing alone wondering what was going on and wondering where everyone went. It obviously went from bad to worse.
Instead of WCF and some of it's freinds/club cronies attacking these nice people, they should instead be feeling embarrased and at least opologizing for being such poor hosts after the fact. Not that at this point that it may help any this late in the game. They shouldn't have done it to them in the first place. I see a few like stimpy, grinthock and artherd saying that Boomtastic and others should have acted like grown ups. I think we on the forum can easily see who are the ones who should be acting like grown ups.
The big crime here was really the poor coordination, hospitality and attitude by WCF, not so much the museums possible screw up of not knowing what they had. Added now attitudes from some (most from those trying to defend WCF-very poorly I might add) that are just making it worse.
I see a sad, sad example by WCF and those who want to defend them of what it means to be proud members of a great Fiero community. WCF, you embarrased the rest of us with this poor handling of the whole situation. You and your idiotic defenders should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Originally posted by Fiero5: Stimpy, Instead of WCF and some of it's freinds/club cronies attacking these nice people, they should instead be feeling embarrased and at least opologizing for being such poor hosts after the fact. The big crime here was really the poor coordination, hospitality and attitude by WCF, not so much the museums screw up of not knowing what they had.
Ya know, Steve, I'm not attacking anybody. If anything, I'm wishing this would blow over before too many people make total asses of themselves, on both sides. I am neither a friend nor a club crony of WCF. However, I think to classify the poor coordination of this thing as a "crime" is laughable. Get over it people.
Now, I am not directing this to either Mr& Mrs Boomtastic or Mr & Mrs Chester. Sucks that you had a bad time in Southern California. Millions of tourists each year usually fare better. But all you sideliners who lost neither time nor money over this, give it a rest, will ya?
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11:17 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
Originally posted by Boomtastic: Hey moron - read my first post. I defended him by explaining this prior, but obviously you missed something in my post. Shall I explain it to you or just spring for the "Hooked on Phonics" series for you?? While you were all galavanting around southern Cali, you left behind some pissed off people. Maybe you should have had more consideration before you decided to slink out of the parking lot and leave folks behind. Or
In your defense, I can understand that you'd be upset, being so far away from home and such. There are some things that probably could have been done better.
In WCF's defense, I know how difficult it is to put on events like this, with 20 or more cars and 50 people.
Before the drive, they handed out maps, schedules and told everyone that keeping a caravan together the whole time would be next to impossible. They said to follow the schedule and maps if people became separated.
Eric and some others were also walking around the museum, telling people "meet at the silver Shelby at 1:15." If they missed you, they either didn't run into you or didn't recognize you (there were a lot of new people there for this. It's easy to miss someone).
quote
where you driving the green Fiero? If so, I completely understand why you would feel like you do ....
Next?
No, I was driving the medium red 88GT in front of you on the way to the museum, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
Oh, by the way, my post was not directed at you, but the others here in the forum that weren't there, but did the usual "jump on the uninfomed but p****d off" bandwagon.
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11:30 PM
Fiero5 Member
Posts: 8882 From: Arecibo, PR Registered: Jun 2000
----------------- quote by stimpy: "Ya know, Steve, I'm not attacking anybody." -----------------
Oh really?
----------------- quote by stimpy: "And for anyone who visits LA to see ONE CAR(?!) and can't find anything else of interest to see without it being pointed out for them, I pity y'all. For those who don't know, the Petersen Museum is the automotive equivialent of the Smithsonian. Widen the horizon folks. Sometimes Space Mountain is shut down at Disneyland, too." -------------------------
Um, sure stimpy
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11:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
Boomtastic Member
Posts: 2359 From: Athens, Alabama Registered: May 2000
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WKDFIRO: It would now seem that you are missing something. Were you offering "Hooked on Phonics" because you thought you were done with it?
There were over 60 people in the group that was supposed to be only around 40. The 32 Duece coupe showing had the two top levels of the parking structure filled and it had become a media event with Jay Leno and Tim Allen attending.
Irrelevant & incorrect. First of all, Eric should have known that the Deuce show was on the same day. The museum did not dream up a 400 car show overnight. Secondly, Eric had the list of persons that were to attend. If any others magically appeared at the shop and museum, that's HIS problem, not mine. My name was on a list created LONG before then. He should be a big boy (as you like to put it) and be able to handle it.
Did you NOT notice how many people were in line to get into the museum?
Yes, and I - like many others - stood in line while WCF and his buddies ran into the museum. We had to ask the museum staff to pull us out of line so that we could join you. Did you realize that?
Did you NOT notice or consider the logistical nightmare of trying to keep a caravan together on the streets of LA?
I knew it would be difficult, but not impossible. The 60 MPH ride through Beverly Hills was impressive, especially since it was a 35 MPH zone. What's wrong with that picture? That doesn't sound like a group that WANTS to keep people together. And even Chris West himself was shaking his head after looking at the maps - this PRIOR to anyone even getting them. Frankly, the maps sucked. They didn't explain d!ck. My local car club can move 80 Fieros over 100 miles annually with little problems and no loss of members. Shall I clue you in on a secret? Common courtesy is a start. Maybe a walkie talkie at the front and rear is another good idea. Hmmm .. try following the yellow brick road and see if the Wizard has any brains left for you guys ..
Perhaps you failed to notice that they took us down to the basement in a freight elevator and it took two loads to get us all down there. And this was a tour that was supposed to top off at 35 people. Or did that slip under your keen observations on the Forum discussions?
And what does the fright elevator have to do with anything? This was a service elevator - one that the musuem uses for transporting materials, not people. Perhaps you were expecting the Taj Mahal of elevators? Sorry they did not line it with shag rug for you.
I know for certain that you wouldn't have known that there were some that had to leave for other destinations (work, other appointments for the day etc.) right after coming out of the vault. Others went through the museum and checked out the sights. Everyone at a different pace. I know of one person in our group that took a half hour just looking at and video taping the vintage gas pumps because they collect that kind of thing. Others zipped through to go and see the Hot Rod show outside, while others still skipped the cars all together to marvel at the motorcycle section. Were we supposed to keep track of them? Were we supposed to have the where abouts of everyone in the group known at all times? Did you expect to be sent a permission slip for your parents to sign before this trip?
How about accountability? It's YOUR show - you handle everything, from start to finish. And that's what DIDN'T happen. I understand that people have their own objectives, and there's nothing wrong with that. Life goes on outside the Fiero. But if you've got the day planned, and that's what was posted on the WCF web page, then follow through with it. Don't leave people behind, ESPECIALLY if they are guests - no matter where they came from. I'm sure all of the 'clique' were accounted for, right??
I will clue you in on one thing. Everyone was a grown up. Everyone was more than capable to go and find what interested them in this fine Automotive Museum all by themselves. I for one would have found having a school outing format (did you want everyone to hold hands and then take roll at the end of the day? Is that the kind of organization that you need?) too confining. We know that different people have different tastes and different paces so we were not about to go and try to keep that many people together in an already busy place. Its unrealistic.
Obviously your world is pretty small.
Yet you still insist on being bitter on an honest mistake. You still insist on being insulting on an outing that did not go as well as any of us hoped. A mistake that I did apologize for.
Hang on! It wasn't about an apology from you, and let's make that clear. I'm sure that you were not guilty in the matter, and I respect your apology just the same.
Out of that number of people (considering that a lot of us were from out of town, had never been to the museum before or were just along for the ride)that did have a good time, you got lost, got left behind, and then got bitter.
What got us bitter was that Eric stood next to Elvira and never said a word about leaving. He vanished into the crowd, and that was the last time we saw him. We walked outside and saw Fiero after Fiero leaving, and that's what really pissed off the mood. Eric made it clear that there was no food places around the museum, so guess where we were going to eat? Paradise Cove. And how do you think we felt when we walk outside and see everyone leaving without saying a word?? I'd like to think that you would be hurt and pissed off. Correct me if I'm wrong, OR come out to the east coast and we'll try it in person.
Well, it is still possibe that your apparent theory that we set this whole thing up just to piss YOU off may be inaccurate.
WRONG!! I never stated or implied that.
Eric did work hard not to just get this event together but to also have a group get together and have a good time. We learned some lessons from mistakes that we would hope not to repeat in the future.
At least there is some silver lining then?
We learned that even museums misunderstand Fieros. We learned that PCH can get turned into a parking lot because one traffic signal intersection begins to malfunction. We learned that even with maps and itineraries we might still lose someone (even when we put them on our website: http://clubs.hemmings.com/fieroswest/Peterson%20Tour.htm). We learned that we do need to find out of people from out of town who may be intimidated by downtown Los Angeles and have someone "buddy up" with them to keep them in pace with the rest of us. (I myself do get intimidated by LA because I do not travel that far into downtown. So Larry, from San Diego, and I stuck close to Keith and Phil Huff's Fiero.)
We put on this event because we thought we had something to share with the Fiero community. We were misled by an honest mistake that even our Vault Guide apologized for. Hindsight is always 20/20. I apologize to Boomtastic, not for WCF because they have very little to apologize for, but for not being as organized in the way that YOU see fit. It might be easier to organize things in Wareham, MA but they can get pretty fouled up around here even with the most detailed of planning.
Nicely put, and accepted.
And while we are calling 'em as we see'em, I personally learned that there are still some people that will come to LA and need to be given a detailed map of LA, told exactly where to be and what to do in a rigid schedule, given a list of phone numbers to call if they get seperated (culled?) from the herd and a place to meet if they get lost.
We have a small group of people here in LA, but they usually need their own helmet and ride a special bus. We could have at least gotten an autocross racing helmet for you, Boom!
Thanks, but I have a nice Shoei I will bring next time.
You are right though. We could have done more to make sure that you had a better time....
Thank you to all the people who did come from out of state, out of town and for those select few that came from out of their mind to join us.
At the end of the night, we recounted our adventures, our misfortunes and shook hands with a lot of new friends. It was good to meet logicdragon, sleeper, Al and a lot of the people who I know primarily from their screen name rather than their given name.
Its a credit to Cliff's hard work and organization that we have gotten together. We have already taken the lessons learned from this event and finding ways to apply them to Western Regionals in Truckee.
And for anyone who really is unfamiliar with an event or is prone to get lost, do let coordinators know so that they can have someone keep an eye out for them. Perhaps next time we can have everyone talk about the good time they had.
Here's hoping! Okay - I'm done. We all agree that mistakes were made, and hopefully we can rise above this. The car - for what it was - was fairly nice. Who wouldn't want it in their driveway? Sure, it wasn't what was expected, and that was a big let down. Maybe everything combined led to this flame war. Let's end it, okay?
------------------ Boomtastic
[This message has been edited by Boomtastic (edited 03-03-2002).]
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11:40 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27079 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by chester: one else there. All I have to say is anyone planning to travel to see these folks in the future might want to tattoo a map to their a$$ just in case cause there is no help out here.
Rob D
Well, for some of you (excluding the group from the Northeast), this would work really well. All you'd have to do is pull your head out a few inches and read the map.
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11:40 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27079 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Boomtastic: [SNIP] I digress. I now know, first hand, that this group is incapable of putting together an event. Frankly, I'm surprised you can tie your shoes together.
Why would they tie their shoes together? Makes it tough to walk that way.
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11:43 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27079 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by 86seyellow: I for one feel that WCF doesnt no sh*t. I see all kinds of bad things they do on here. I am so glad I dotn live there or have ever had them work on my car. When u set up a big tour like this , u check things out. Why didnt WCF take a earlier tour before opening their mouths??? why didnt WCF, ask to see pics or anything??? does WCF know what a Fiero is??
I for one hope thsi will be the demise of WCF. I habe heard abotu bad cluthces, bad service and now this.
WCF, you are scammers just trying to plug yoru business.
Archie, you saw it coming adn you will know pick up all their business. I am so glad I didnt go there and waste my money and time.
This is ridiculous. Where do these a**holes come from?
Eric asked the museum to see the car prior and they said no. NO. What part of NO is so difficult for you to understand.
By the way, we watched Archie's V8 install video for comic relief.
Sorry for those who took the trip and were dumped on their @ss.
------------------ TRiAD Motorsports ~ Performance Tuning of European, Japanese and Domestic Automobiles Project MR1 / Let the modding begin! ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com * AIM ~ Michael Blue 72 Only the dead have seen the end of war. ~ Plato
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11:52 PM
chester Member
Posts: 4063 From: State of insanity...moved in and comfortably numb... Registered: Jun 2001
IF you were dumb enough to NOT know where you were going, and DUMB enough not to bring a map and DUMB enough not to PLAN AHEAD so you knew where you were going and WHERE to turn and HOW to get there... That's your tough monkeys people, GET ORGANIZED why the hell do people have to hold your hand in that regard.
Dude are you an idiot? I'm DUMB because they left us behind? Bite me. We found our way back to the hotel just fine. The point was being ditched at the museum. Not in traffic, not anywhere but AT THE MUSEUM. There was a bunch of people at the gift shop along with us. NO ONE SAID JACK SH*T ABOUT MEETING ANYWHERE. We turned around and everyone was gone. By the time we got out of the museum (since we had to park in an aux parking lot)and down the block, everyone was already in their Fieros zipping out of the parking lot. At this point it doesn’t really matter. But you know what you can do.
Originally posted by grinthock: I probably would have driven a bit to go see it.
I suppose that WCF could have attempted a little more investigation (Ask about vin's or SOMETHING), but give them credit guys they went though alot of work to set the thing up, THEY were being told by the museum guys it was a 89, why should they NOT beleive the guys it IS their museum.
As for WCF itself I havn't dealt with them personally so I won't comment on them.
Sounds like they tried real hard to set up a cool event, and things got kinda messed....
I suppose a public apology from them wouldn't be out of line.
As for getting lost?
IF you were dumb enough to NOT know where you were going, and DUMB enough not to bring a map and DUMB enough not to PLAN AHEAD so you knew where you were going and WHERE to turn and HOW to get there... That's your tough monkeys people, GET ORGANIZED why the hell do people have to hold your hand in that regard.
When I travel I carry a map, a backup map, directions that I create (internet, tripmaker) and phone numbers for other people, homes, cell's whatever. I also carry a GPS which I use for personal navigation, but I still do ALL the manual backup work incase even that dies.
I drove my way to Oley, PA for the PA tech day, Got their fine, got a TAD lost when I made a wrong turn, but I GOT THERE, cause I HAD A MAP....
Not worth the aggrivation. Let's end this. We know the story, we saw the "real side" of Eric from WCF. Thanks for the great time Boomtastic and MsBeth.
[This message has been edited by Elvira (edited 03-04-2002).]
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11:54 PM
chester Member
Posts: 4063 From: State of insanity...moved in and comfortably numb... Registered: Jun 2001
Originally posted by Smoooooth GT: I just got off the phone with Eric at WCF... All I can say is.. It's alway's better to get the *other* side of the story!!
It's all over with .. I apologize to EVERYONE if I offfened anyone!!! It's all over!!!!
Hmmm, other side of the story huh? Well why don't you enlighten us cause it should be pretty F*cking interesting. PM if needed.
Originally posted by chester: Hmmm, other side of the story huh? Well why don't you enlighten us cause it should be pretty F*cking interesting. PM if needed.
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