The only reason Matt and I are worried about RPMs is just so we can interface better with our transmission limitations. There is no more extra power up there.

quote Originally posted by Xyster: ZZperformance made the claim. Unfortunately this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_OE3GLYac4 ) doesn't prove it.

That sure sounds like an 8000 RPM buzz.............

quote Originally posted by mptighe: So, here is the question. If someone built two identical engines with identical levels of boost, but one was stroked, would it not make a difference at all? Wouldn't the displacement allow for some gains? Or is it just that the gains wouldn't justify the additional expense?

Without any intent to make a negative contribution to this thread or, fuel debate, all else the same increasing the displacement will make a difference. I believe the question is where more so than how much as it relates to your cylinder head flow. Obviously more displacement will not make the heads flow more than they are capable of, but it will insure that you produce more power and torque under the curve over stock displacement until you reach their limit. I'd expect 4.2L to get you past 60 ft quicker than 3.8L with the same heads.


I stroked my 3900 to 4.2L and although the stock motor is quick off the line I'd compare the difference as a baseball's response to a bunt vs. a homerun swing. Higher compression played its part to but you can't get around the laws of physics.

I just saw through Facebook today that ZZP is releasing a 4340 connecting rod very soon. It might be a more cost effective alternative to look into.

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'04 Mazda RX8 Build Thread
'88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph (Sold and gone now)
GM Tuners

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 12-14-2011).]

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: I just saw through Facebook today that ZZP is releasing a 4340great connecting rod very soon. It might be a more cost effective alternative to look into.

I was just going to post this.

quote ZZPerformance.com New 4340 rods coming for the 3800. Stronger than powder metal, 20% lighter. whats the cost?! 2 hours ago · Like ZZPerformance.com Not much more than the powder rods 2 hours ago · Like

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 12-14-2011).]

yea, I saw it as well. would have come in handy about a week ago
I have already sent a stock rod out to be used as a sample but if that does not work out I will be going with those rods.
D.

Dean,

Make certain that you use a good fuel pump and/or regulator! It would really be bad if you had to tow your own car back to the shop.

Nelson

quote Originally posted by hnthomps: Dean, Make certain that you use a good fuel pump and/or regulator! It would really be bad if you had to tow your own car back to the shop. Nelson

yea, lol not funny I guess this is why I am trying to find US vendors to build the parts for us for now on. made in China crap!
for those that do not know what happened, we finished the black Mera and it was on its way home "twice" and the fuel pump went out "twice" we figured out that it was a bad regulator that was not letting fuel flow back in the return and it was over heating the pump so now I have to send it back and get a new one.
D.

http://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-pumps Made in the USA

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: http://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-pumps Made in the USA

Haha, this time you beat me to it! From what I have seen/researched, this is probably the best in-tank fuel-pump on the market right now.

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'04 Mazda RX8 Build Thread
'88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph (Sold and gone now)
GM Tuners

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 12-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: http://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-pumps Made in the USA

Thank you for this link sir.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: Haha, this time you beat me to it! From what I have seen/researched, this is probably the best in-tank fuel-pump on the market right now.

you beat me to saying he beat me to it!

Bump for an update

I have not updated this thread in a while because I am still on the hunt for parts and we have made a deal with an engine builder for the use of his shop to flow the heads and engine dyno the motor before it ever goes in the car. but it will take time to get this one done.
so for now the thread is in slow mo.
D.

setting this up on an engine dyno is going to take quite a bit of time... Good luck and dont skimp on anything. You will need tons of fuel/octane/intercooling to push it.

Maybe I should google it but what are the advantages to putting it on an engine dyno? Is there some things you can test or adjust differently than when its in the car and on a chassis dyno? Do you fab it all up in the car, pull it, put on the engine dyno or just put it together enough to run outside the car then re-fab everything once it goes in the car. What about the charge pipe, wiring harness, fuel pump(do you use the one you are putting in the car, same size lines and stuff)?

I could see manufactures doing it to test designs or longevity. Are you going to try different turbos, intercoolers, camshafts?

Just wondering how it all works.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

No real advantage other than ease of working on the engine like adjusting valve lash on solid lifter camshaft

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Maybe I should google it but what are the advantages to putting it on an engine dyno?

I'd expect an engine dyno to be the ultimate approach to tuning an engine. I can't see a chassis dyno offering anywhere near the precision in tuning environment than an actual engine dyno. The more I work on tuning my engine, the more I realize how inadequate the numerous "How to tune..." stickys on various websites are. There are some important tables that are essential in maintaining the consistency of the tune that are either never, or under addressed, like the AFR vs, coolant temp table for example, not to mention the "caveman" nature of tuning from a datalog instead of emulation/real time tuning.

I swaped out my 195 thermostat for a 160 for example to keep temps in a more practical range for boost. If you're not aware that table exists you'll fiddle with what might already be a perfect VE table disrupting a wide range of tune accuracy when you only need to scale the aformentioned table. Put considerably larger injectors in and you're in for another headache. I don't imagine the cost is too much more than what is spent in gas over weeks of logging and tuning cycles.

If it's perfect on the dyno the likely inefficient "taxes" experienced after it's installed in the car will not throw the tune off on the lean side if it is even perceptable at all.

Last but not least, it will make possible some awsome video unlike any we've seen from a Fiero related swap.

the flow bench and engine dynos are just tools to get us where we want to be with the build but great ones.
the dyno will be used for brake in of the motor as well as tunning for the power range we would like without all the headach of installing it in the car just to pull it back out and chainge things.
we will be testing things in real time and be able to tune on the fly. one of the mods to this setup will be a not so stock computer that will be running the setup. we will be testing this set as well and if it works out we will most likely be selling them soon. no more HP tuner headaches.
more to come.

Just so ya know, I think you're all crazy.

But you're also dang entertaining to watch.

quote one of the mods to this setup will be a not so stock computer that will be running the setup. we will be testing this set as well and if it works out we will most likely be selling them soon. no more HP tuner headaches. more to come.

The first mod in this thread that is beginning to make any sense. PM me if you would like to discuss some of my experiences with aftermarket ECU's on 3800s.

quote Originally posted by Stubby79: Just so ya know, I think you're all crazy. But you're also dang entertaining to watch.

and your not ?????????????? lol!

got a few more parts in today

Manley HD valves, Manley 150 lb springs, keepers, and locks
on the way... Northstar TB and comp R lifters.

[This message has been edited by whodeanie (edited 12-30-2011).]

quote comp R lifters.

Adjustable T&D rockers on order too now I take it?

I hope you had the head studs drilled out and retapped for the T-D rockers before you buttoned everything up.

The only advantage I can see with using an engine dyno, is to make sure everything is functioning properly, and to test various physical combinations (cams, valvetrain, heads, intake, etc...) but not for the actual tuning of the A/F across the RPM band, because once you put the load of the drivetrain on the motor, it all changes...

i think....

Either way, it's not going to hurt anything.

[This message has been edited by Genopsyde (edited 12-31-2011).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Adjustable T&D rockers on order too now I take it? I hope you had the head studs drilled out and retapped for the T-D rockers before you buttoned everything up.

no, T&d rockers in this one. it would be too muck work to get them installed.

the great thing about this build is it has made me do a lot of research on this engine, the setups and the parts. this helps me with the other builds we do as well. we know what works and what works even better.

I will say this to all here the 3800 in stock form it no ancor, these engines from the factory with basic mods will handle almost anything you can throw at them. this build it way over the top for R&D as well as find out just how far you can take one. it will take time to get this one the way I want it because we are testing every part of the build before it ever goes in the car. my only goal is a reliable power house that can and will be driven on the street for shop promotion and Dyno runs. it will not be raced so no 1/4 mile times will ever be done because it will be running a 6 speed trans not an auto.

I know that this is not for everyone but if I tried to build a car based on that it would never get started.
D.

quote Originally posted by whodeanie: no, T&d rockers in this one. it would be too muck work to get them installed. the great thing about this build is it has made me do a lot of research on this engine, the setups and the parts. this helps me with the other builds we do as well. we know what works and what works even better. I will say this to all here the 3800 in stock form it no ancor, these engines from the factory with basic mods will handle almost anything you can throw at them. this build it way over the top for R&D as well as find out just how far you can take one. it will take time to get this one the way I want it because we are testing every part of the build before it ever goes in the car. my only goal is a reliable power house that can and will be driven on the street for shop promotion and Dyno runs. it will not be raced so no 1/4 mile times will ever be done because it will be running a 6 speed trans not an auto. I know that this is not for everyone but if I tried to build a car based on that it would never get started. D.

Ok so no T and D rockers, what are you using to adjust the valve lash? The OER lifters are basically a solid lifter.

Im interested to know what ening management you'll be using. Certainly hope is isnt MS or BS3. Haltec, Motec, Aem?

Any new progress?
I really want to see how this turns out!

this thread will be killed I will start a new one in General for the full build on my Kermit project.
D.