some of you may folow my shop thread and have seen some pics of the 3800 block that I am building but I figured it deserved its own thread. I am building this motor as bulit proof as I can and in doing so I am going way over the top with it because I want it to last as a DD as well as have over 700 HP. so this is what I have done. I started with a 99 GXP 3800 motor and tore it all the way down to just the block. it will be getting all new parts for the build. once the block was srtiped I pollished the valley as well as drilled return oil holes in it. I re moved all the plugs and bearings to get it ready for the machine shop. the crank has been turned and I am now waiting for the rods and pistons so I can take it to them. the pistons are Diamond forged coated at 20 over stock. I will be using the powdered metal rods with ARP bolts and total seal rings. the balance shaft will no longer be used and the engine will be ballanced. once the machine shop is done with it I will be taking the whole motor over to get it Cryoed and some parts will be RIM pollished and others will be coated. much more will be done to this motor as well so I will let you know as we do them with pictures but for now this is what I have for the motor now. as well as some of the things that have already been done.
the block..... Pollished the valley and drilled return oil holes also working on smoothing out the cast marks to give it a nice finished look. I already have ARP main studs, head studs, rod bolts, reuseable rocker bolts and SS header bolts new ZZP oil pump and Dbl. roller chain all bearings are tri metal and are being sent to Swaintech to be coated all new metal gaskets for the motor as well as 4 layer Cometic head gaskets. the cam will be custom made
the heads are being ported and pollished now and once done will go the the machine shop for new seats and guids for the new Manley HD over sized valves. I will be using roller rockers and I am not sure on springs yet I will have to see what the cam will need first.
some of the other parts and mods that I have done so far..
ZZP stage 3 composit intercooler ZZP fuel rails ZZP valve covers custom 8 grove smooth flow pulleys 110 amp alt. new water pump. port matched lower intake and supercharger to take full advantage of the intercooler re worked supercharger housing and roters for a tighter fit and recoated with a stronger teflon that will not flake off. all new bearings in the supercharger. romote oil filter 160 Tstat airtech fuel pump and oh yea I almost forgot a T76 turbo and full intercooler setup.
Yes it will be twin charged but before you all start trying to talk me out of it let me just say this I am building it for the WOW factor for shows and it may not stay in this form for long. this is my shop car and things will always chainge on it. I want to use it to test setups and this will be the first one. the idea for this one will be to use the supercharger to spool the turbo and let the turbo take over. the bypass is being custom worked to handle this. I will not be running more than 16 pounds of total boost.
the only reasons I am going to cryo and coat this intire setup is this... first I want it to be strong and last a long time and a firend of mine owns the place so it will not cost me near as much as it would someone else to do it.
this motor will be mated to an F40 6 speed that will also be cryoed and RIM as well as an LSD this setup will find its way into Kermit an 86 GT but I have already redone an 88 cradle to go into it the cradle has been re welded with a TIG and smoothed of all the holes and parts it will not need so it can be powdercoated. I hope you all will like this build and I will keep it as up to date as I can with all the things going on at the shop it is a little hard to do. I wanted to share this to show just how far you can take a 3800. you never know this may end up being a twin turbo 1000 HP set up one day this is whay I am making it as strong as I can I only want to build the motor once and play with external setups. D.
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10:28 AM
PFF
System Bot
lateFormula Member
Posts: 1048 From: Detroit Rock City Registered: Jul 2002
In case of a catastrophic failure, the powdered rods will brake in such a way that the damage caused by the broken rod will be minimal. They are rated up to 500hp. Crio treatment will improve their integrity and in case they brake, carnage will still be very minimal compared to a forge steel rod failure. Very good choice!!
What powder metal rods are you going with? OEM or something aftermarket?
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Originally posted by La fiera:
In case of a catastrophic failure, the powdered rods will brake in such a way that the damage caused by the broken rod will be minimal. They are rated up to 500hp. Crio treatment will improve their integrity and in case they brake, carnage will still be very minimal compared to a forge steel rod failure. Very good choice!!
I broke a powdered rod and it took out the side of the block and destroyed an aluminum oil pan. Why would you put a rod rated up to 500hp in a 1000hp engine?
What powder metal rods are you going with? OEM or something aftermarket?
I broke a powdered rod and it took out the side of the block and destroyed an aluminum oil pan. Why would you put a rod rated up to 500hp in a 1000hp engine?
Well, if it would've been forged steel it would've taken out the side of the block, the crank, the other side of the block, damage the head and who knows what else.
Were your powdered rods cryo threated? This process can really strengthen a part by more than 50% and increases the fatigue resistance. That resistance to fatigue is the key of this process because fatigue is what will cause the metal to fail.
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04:43 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 16083 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Looks like the making of a strong 3800. Everything that you are doing sounds ideal but if you really make 700HP, I would recommend that you look into using custom Carrillo H Beam Connecting rods. A good source of info on components for racing prepped 3800 is Zoomer at ZZ Performance. When ever I add a modificatrion I usually get in touch with Zoomer. The guy with the fastest 3800SC in the world usually has good info to pass on. Good luck on the project. Sounds awesome.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-27-2011).]
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05:12 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
the heads are being ported and pollished now and once done will go the the machine shop for new seats and guids for the new Manley HD over sized valves. I will be using roller rockers and I am not sure on springs yet I will have to see what the cam will need first.
Careful putting valves in, the seats are a major pain to deal with and can not be cut back to the point it removes the hardnening. Roller rockers decrease horsepower in every situation I and zzp have run across. You are most likely not going to be running anything that would make a stock rocker not work so I wouldnt worry about it. Custom rockers are only going to be requried to run custom lifters that would require special installation procedures.
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custom 8 grove smooth flow pulleys
This is a huge waste of time... You dont need 8rib for a supercharger setup with a stock pulley on it.
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airtech fuel pump
In tank? Sump stock tank? Fuel cell? What fuel are you running?
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and oh yea I almost forgot a T76 turbo and full intercooler setup.
Big turbo
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Yes it will be twin charged but before you all start trying to talk me out of it let me just say this I am building it for the WOW factor for shows and it may not stay in this form for long. this is my shop car and things will always chainge on it. I want to use it to test setups and this will be the first one. the idea for this one will be to use the supercharger to spool the turbo and let the turbo take over. the bypass is being custom worked to handle this.
A custom bypass setup will most likely not be worth your time.. Make the stock one open under turbo boost, but remember plenty of air will be going through the supercharger as well.
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I will not be running more than 16 pounds of total boost.
Wut? You have a 1000whp turbo, that will do just fine up to 30psi. I struggle to make much more than 450whp on 16psi without a supercharger meddling with the pressure ratio.
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this motor will be mated to an F40 6 speed that will also be cryoed and RIM as well as an LSD
LSDs are completely useless in a fiero. Spend your money on the clutch and leave the transmission alone.
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you never know this may end up being a twin turbo 1000 HP set up one day
you need 2 1000whp turbos to make 1000whp or something?
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06:36 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
Well, if it would've been forged steel it would've taken out the side of the block, the crank, the other side of the block, damage the head and who knows what else.
If it were forged it probably wouldnt have broken in the first place. Maybe use wooden connecting rods? when that brakes it wont damage anything else.
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06:40 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41355 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Every person in this thread is stupid, shut up and enjoy the thread, I like how everyone here is a genious but none of you have a shop or any good reputation
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07:57 PM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
Not doubting your decision, just wondering why you used a Series2. I thought Series3 had better strength and oil capabilities from the start. Maybe your modifications surpass the Series3 differences. Just curious.
Every person in this thread is stupid, shut up and enjoy the thread, I like how everyone here is a genious but none of you have a shop or any good reputation
you do realize that your post put you in this thread? . . . .DOHHHHHH, now i am in it!!
on a side note, any idea what you are shooting for in a max rpm range? the short stroke in these things seems like 7000 would be a no brainer, and 8000 should be a very realistic target?
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08:20 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
you do realize that your post put you in this thread? . . . .DOHHHHHH, now i am in it!!
on a side note, any idea what you are shooting for in a max rpm range? the short stroke in these things seems like 7000 would be a no brainer, and 8000 should be a very realistic target?
heads, and the ignition system limit things to about 6500.
Careful putting valves in, the seats are a major pain to deal with and can not be cut back to the point it removes the hardnening. Roller rockers decrease horsepower in every situation I and zzp have run across. You are most likely not going to be running anything that would make a stock rocker not work so I wouldnt worry about it. Custom rockers are only going to be requried to run custom lifters that would require special installation procedures.
im interested in why this is, not that im doubting. im assuming your talking about zzp's 1.6 aluminum roller rockers. if you could explain more id appreciate it as i was going to go this route as well.
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08:55 PM
La fiera Member
Posts: 2298 From: Mooresville, NC Registered: Jun 2008
Every person in this thread is stupid, shut up and enjoy the thread, I like how everyone here is a genious but none of you have a shop or any good reputation
Originally posted by Greenmeansgo: Every person in this thread is stupid, shut up and enjoy the thread, I like how everyone here is a genious but none of you have a shop or any good reputation
Genius. G - E - N - I - U - S. If you have the moxie to come back in here ranting, be sure you bring your dictionary. Oh, and be sure you have a "shop" and at least sixty people without a high school diploma who sing your praises. /aggravated
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Originally posted by La fiera: Well, if it would've been forged steel it would've taken out the side of the block, the crank, the other side of the block, damage the head and who knows what else.
It doesn't matter, in either situation the lower rotating assembly is ruined. This engine is well known for its availability at a low cost. New heads and crank come with a new block.
Dean I'm with the others here, the powdered rods haven't been doing well lately. With your power goals, I'd invest in some stronger rods.
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Originally posted by Raydar:
By the way, I'm with this guy also. Should be fun to watch.
[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 11-28-2011).]
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11:38 PM
Nov 28th, 2011
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
im interested in why this is, not that im doubting. im assuming your talking about zzp's 1.6 aluminum roller rockers. if you could explain more id appreciate it as i was going to go this route as well.
thanks for the info on the rods, I will look into it. I did look at forged rods but at the cost point it would stall out the build at 1800.00 for the set. I am not woried about blowing things up because I do have spair parts but the goal is to keep it together as long as I can and find the weak points as we go. as far as HP like I said it will be as much as we can get out of each setup and then chainge to another and see what we get. the motor its self I hope to only build once. the S2 is a strong block that was way over built from the factory and we are just adding to it to push it to the limit. but keep in mind this will not be realy raced it is just a shop demo car that will be used for testing the setups that we do. I would rather blow up my car and make the others last. I have no real goals in mind for this uther than taking it as far as we can and posting up the results here for others.
I will not get into a debate about what works and what does not unless I have proof that it does or does not work from our testing. this motor is being built and tested by some of the best engine builders in the south east as a test bed for power vs reliability. keep in mind that we are looking for more than 3 HP per CI and not that long ago it was unheard of.
I do talk to ZZP almost every week as well as others in the field my choices on what parts to use are not just a shot in the dark they come with a lot of research to find what works best for others as well.
I hope you enjoy the thread but lets keep it fun. thanks, D.
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08:05 AM
whodeanie Member
Posts: 3819 From: woodstock,Ga.,USA Registered: Jan 2008
This will be fun to watch. Good luck Dean. You're still getting my car for the make-over. Depending on how far you are on this you may be able to use my setup to see how you want to run your 3800 / f40.
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05:19 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
thanks for the info on the rods, I will look into it. I did look at forged rods but at the cost point it would stall out the build at 1800.00 for the set. I am not woried about blowing things up because I do have spair parts but the goal is to keep it together as long as I can and find the weak points as we go.
Its been determined that long ago the rods are the weakest part by a LARGE margin. Upgraded rods on stock pistons even would net a very significant gain in strength while leaving stock rods in there is going to net a motor that is excatly as strong as a 200k mile pulled out of a junkyard.
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I will not get into a debate about what works and what does not unless I have proof that it does or does not work from our testing. this motor is being built and tested by some of the best engine builders in the south east as a test bed for power vs reliability. keep in mind that we are looking for more than 3 HP per CI and not that long ago it was unheard of.
Well, I have been doing 3+ HP per CI on my 3800 fiero for about a year now. Its nothing special, and completely "heard of".
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I do talk to ZZP almost every week as well as others in the field my choices on what parts to use are not just a shot in the dark they come with a lot of research to find what works best for others as well.
I hope you enjoy the thread but lets keep it fun. thanks, D.
there is only so much practical information you are going to get from a vendor... If you come to them saying you want all these parts... they are going to limit the advice and upsell their cash cows.
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08:22 PM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
without doing anything to a stock 3800 sc bottom end , they hold up really well .if you want to make it stronger get a low mile block and throw in some forged rods and pistons .the cryo treating is a waste of time and money .if you start with parts that can take the abuse then you dont need cryo , shot peen and all the other wonder treatments that are supposed to work miracles .i dont know prices for 3800 rods and pistons but i am sure you could get them for less than 1800.00 .my eagle rods and wiseco pistons with rings were around 900.00 for my ecotec.carillos are more money but i dont think they are that much better .i would spend money on new aluminum heads before the other stuff .that would give some bling and lower the weight too .
What's all this talk of forged 3800 rods? When did they come into existance? Last I heard, there were no forged rods available for this engine. Also, last I heard, the series 3 rods have been holding up to 700 hp.
Looking for higher revs? Look for titanium valvetrain components. I don't know if they are currently available for this engine, and I'm not gonna look...cuz I can't afford them anyways.
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02:07 AM
whodeanie Member
Posts: 3819 From: woodstock,Ga.,USA Registered: Jan 2008
I am only going with the Cryo and RIM because a local company does it and they are friends of mine. they want to show their products to my customers as well as all of you here on the forum. but it will increase the life of the engine and trans as well as make it stronger. I could run it with no oil for up to 30 without fail ( not that I would ever want to ) as far as rods I have only found one company that has them and they are 1800 a set. everyone I have talked to said they are not going to make them because not enough demand for them. with the S3 powdered rods they will hold up to 700 HP and with the Cryo and RIM they would hold in the neighborhood of 1000 HP and that would be good enough for me unless you can show me a company and a part # for a forged rod for this set up for under 800 I guess I will have to stick with this setup. D.
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08:07 AM
TXGOOD Member
Posts: 5410 From: Austin, Texas Registered: Feb 2006
I am wondering, and not being sarcastic or critical, but I truly wonder why someone would want over 700 Hp in a Fiero? I have read threads where people say that over 300-400 in a Fiero is bordering on extreme. I mean is 700 Hp truly considered a daily driver?
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09:42 AM
whodeanie Member
Posts: 3819 From: woodstock,Ga.,USA Registered: Jan 2008
I am wondering, and not being sarcastic or critical, but I truly wonder why someone would want over 700 Hp in a Fiero? I have read threads where people say that over 300-400 in a Fiero is bordering on extreme. I mean is 700 Hp truly considered a daily driver?
LOL! I know but when I say a daily driver I mean once or twice a week for 8 miles and for shows. it is going to be a shop Demo car that gets taken to shows and to show our customers just how far you can take a 3800. not that it is for everyone but I love to push the limits of what can be done in what ever we do. becides life is too short to be normal, it is much more fun to do what you love and I do love this.
we have corvettes, cameros, mustangs and even Lambos here every day with over 1200 HP so to do this in a Fiero not that far out. the next one we build will be an LS3 with way more than this one but that will be later. for now we do so many 3800 swaps that it just fits what we do. D.
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10:00 AM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
Originally posted by TXGOOD: ...why someone would want over 700 Hp in a Fiero?
Highway pulls. I've been in a 600hp Fiero that could have used more umph to pull on an Underground Racing TT Gallardo. You get used to the power, in fact it really isn't even very unmanageable in a solid Fiero.
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10:07 AM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
it is only 700 HP when you want it .with modern electronics and fuel injection/boost control these high HP motors are very streetable .you just cant use all the power on the street so turn down the boost for daily driving .i have about 240 at the wheels now and i seldom floor it . i can fry my 245's even with running that low power .i run 10PSI now .
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10:10 AM
PFF
System Bot
TXGOOD Member
Posts: 5410 From: Austin, Texas Registered: Feb 2006
SEE! I am not the only Crazy one here and yes it will be dialed down for street use but I want it to make a big Dyno # and my only other goal for it is to spank my friends C6 ZO6 with twin turbos in a race D.
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10:29 AM
JumpStart Member
Posts: 1412 From: Central Florida Registered: Sep 2006
I am conservatively over 700hp at the flexplate..... and it is nothing too crazy. Its really fast and the tires get pretty sad when racing it out on the highway, but it is fairly controllable.
Due to the nature of a big turbo, a manual trans, and the complete and utter inability to shift quickly, this car is not going to be doing much of anything uncontrollable assuming he has the correct tires on it. Justin's car is in the upper 500hp range, probably about 600 crankshaft horsepower on 21psi, which is where a decent cam/heads car would be at 16psi.
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05:29 PM
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
I am conservatively over 700hp at the flexplate..... and it is nothing too crazy. Its really fast and the tires get pretty sad when racing it out on the highway, but it is fairly controllable.
Due to the nature of a big turbo, a manual trans, and the complete and utter inability to shift quickly, this car is not going to be doing much of anything uncontrollable assuming he has the correct tires on it. Justin's car is in the upper 500hp range, probably about 600 crankshaft horsepower on 21psi, which is where a decent cam/heads car would be at 16psi.
Question, with all of the time and effort you've put into your setup why haven't you actually dyno'd it yet? There has to be a dyno somewhere near to you. Wouldn't you want to know rather than just guess?
Question, with all of the time and effort you've put into your setup why haven't you actually dyno'd it yet? There has to be a dyno somewhere near to you. Wouldn't you want to know rather than just guess?
Dynos are made for tuning and nothing more(unless you count braggining rights)...The #s on a dyno can be made to read any number needed with just a few changes. I would say 1/4 mile times will tell you more about the HP a car is making then any dyno....
Dynos are made for tuning and nothing more(unless you count braggining rights)...The #s on a dyno can be made to read any number needed with just a few changes. I would say 1/4 mile times will tell you more about the HP a car is making then any dyno....
x2
There was a Corbra in town here who had a shop put a whipple on it. It made 610whp on THEIR dyno. It was laughable to say the least.
