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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 11-29-2011).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Question, with all of the time and effort you've put into your setup why haven't you actually dyno'd it yet? There has to be a dyno somewhere near to you. Wouldn't you want to know rather than just guess?

He doesn't need a dyno, he has the 1/4 mile slips.......

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 11-29-2011).]

quote Originally posted by weaselbeak: He doesn't need a dyno, he has the 1/4 mile slips.......

Well, yes and no. He keeps making statements about how much HP his car has, and most of these statements can be taken as though he has more than Fiero X. I'm just curious what makes him think his car has more when it's slower. Anyone can guess, but it's not really anything more than a guess unless it's backed up by something right? If he said he believed his car would do X in the 1/4 because of his races or his guesstimate of what his hp is, no one would believe it, and he would catch hell. I'm just curious how accurate he is on his guess. If you go to one of those 1/4 mile guessing sites, a car putting 450 to the wheels would run around a 10.5 - 10.6. A car running about 570ish would run in the mid 9's. I'm just trying to understand. Mstangs said dynos are just about bragging rights, isn't that what 1/4 mile times are for too, or are we all trying to be get away drivers over a very short distance?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Well, yes and no. He keeps making statements about how much HP his car has, and most of these statements can be taken as though he has more than Fiero X. I'm just curious what makes him think his car has more when it's slower. Anyone can guess, but it's not really anything more than a guess unless it's backed up by something right? If he said he believed his car would do X in the 1/4 because of his races or his guesstimate of what his hp is, no one would believe it, and he would catch hell. I'm just curious how accurate he is on his guess. If you go to one of those 1/4 mile guessing sites, a car putting 450 to the wheels would run around a 10.5 - 10.6. A car running about 570ish would run in the mid 9's. I'm just trying to understand. Mstangs said dynos are just about bragging rights, isn't that what 1/4 mile times are for too, or are we all trying to be get away drivers over a very short distance?

hah!



I already know I am running in the mid 9s, its not worth the $100 to go to a dyno and make it draw a line that says I am making ( a bunch) more power out of a 3800 than anyone on this forum. I have already matched fierox's times using 14psi less out of my turbo... When I put it on "fierox" boost levels nothing touches me.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: hah! I already know I am running in the mid 9s, its not worth the $100 to go to a dyno and make it draw a line that says I am making ( a bunch) more power out of a 3800 than anyone on this forum. I have already matched fierox's times using 14psi less out of my turbo... When I put it on "fierox" boost levels nothing touches me.

See what I mean? He's running 9's without anything showing he's actually done it, and he's making 700+ bhp without anything backing that up either. And people are defending him? If anyone else made these claims you'd be demanding proof.

Scott if you don't need to prove anything why make the comments in the first place? If you're not willing to back it up then why claim that you're making the most power?

See Mstangs, this is VERY much about bragging rights, and he's trying to slam yet another build thread while doing this.

One day this kid is going to piss off someone within driving distance of him. I hope they get it on video when he pisses himself as they're confronting him face to face.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: See what I mean? He's running 9's without anything showing he's actually done it, and he's making 700+ bhp without anything backing that up either. And people are defending him? If anyone else made these claims you'd be demanding proof. Scott if you don't need to prove anything why make the comments in the first place? If you're not willing to back it up then why claim that you're making the most power? See Mstangs, this is VERY much about bragging rights, and he's trying to slam yet another build thread while doing this. One day this kid is going to piss off someone within driving distance of him. I hope they get it on video when he pisses himself as they're confronting him face to face.

You know the only one he really seems to bother that much with his posting is you....He get you hook., line and sinker everytime......

quote Originally posted by mptighe: See what I mean? He's running 9's without anything showing he's actually done it, and he's making 700+ bhp without anything backing that up either. And people are defending him? If anyone else made these claims you'd be demanding proof. Scott if you don't need to prove anything why make the comments in the first place? If you're not willing to back it up then why claim that you're making the most power? See Mstangs, this is VERY much about bragging rights, and he's trying to slam yet another build thread while doing this. One day this kid is going to piss off someone within driving distance of him. I hope they get it on video when he pisses himself as they're confronting him face to face.

umad bro?

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 11-30-2011).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Scott if you don't need to prove anything why make the comments in the first place? If you're not willing to back it up then why claim that you're making the most power? One day this kid is going to piss off someone within driving distance of him. I hope they get it on video when he pisses himself as they're confronting him face to face.

Number 1) This is the internet.
Number 2) Did you see his troll avatar?
Number 3) He has been at it for a while.


most of the time its
often I think he's
he thinks he's than you.
sometimes he has good info
someting he is full of
Just and
positive and everything else

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Dynos are made for tuning and nothing more(unless you count braggining rights)...The #s on a dyno can be made to read any number needed with just a few changes. I would say 1/4 mile times will tell you more about the HP a car is making then any dyno....

Its nice to see someone on the interwebz know and understand, exactly, what a dyno is... a TOOL, nothing more.

One other thing, ET is not as important in my book, its all about the MPH in a 1/4 run. Why? ET is hugely affected by driver error.

Back in my Evo days my stock turbo VIII put down 350whp on a Dyno Dynamics dyno at MASE Engineering. I had all kinds of people (including David Buschur) on EVOm say it was impossible for the mods and "only" 21psi. But then, it trapped 118mph on a hot, muggy night in Alabama. That shut them all up.


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2010 WRX, w2a chargecooled & stage II
1987 Fiero GT 3.4TDC w/ n20
KTM 250SX

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-30-2011).]

Good points Mstangs and nosrac. I guess I just get tired of watching idiots harass people for no reason. I know it's the net and this happens. People think they're safe over it, but you're only safe if no one knows who you are or how to find you. People that think their words will never come back on them are just plain fools.

Anyway I hope you show lots of progress Dean. Don't let this crap bring your thread down.

Wait, I must be that girl that can count to potato.

How does one calculate crank hp with et's?

9.?? in the 1/4 with a car that weighs 2??? pounds

Is there some mathematical formula out there that can calculate hp from et?
If: Crank HP = 700+, then weight + temp + wind + elevation - traction lose - reaction time - shift speed = < 10sec.
Dark, are you Steven Hawkings?

Wow, this thread just got a page longer. I suppose one more comment isn't going to break the camels back (sorry Dean). Michael, the people you don't see eye to eye with here have all built their own cars. You haven't (twice), because you don't know much or anything about the subject. So, you stick to your field, because you've already told me that you don't have the time outside of your professional career. If we have any questions about message therapy, we'll come to you. Fair?

a thought to consider on rods, instead of forged steel, i have been looking into aluminum. they are under $1000 a set (8), are all custom, and the alloys used in the last 5 years or so are supposed to not fatigue much more than steel. certainly good enough for your use. maybe not for 100,000mi car. usually cut 1/4 the weight offf of a good set of steel rods. they do require some engine warm up.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Wait, I must be that girl that can count to potato. How does one calculate crank hp with et's? 9.?? in the 1/4 with a car that weighs 2??? pounds Is there some mathematical formula out there that can calculate hp from et? If: Crank HP = 700+, then weight + temp + wind + elevation - traction lose - reaction time - shift speed = < 10sec. Dark, are you Steven Hawkings?

Simple... trap speed. Trap speed shows HP every day of the week, with scary accuracy.

quote Scott if you don't need to prove anything why make the comments in the first place?

I dont make the comments... You asked, I answered.

quote he's trying to slam yet another build thread while doing this.

I am trying to prevent it from turning into another pile of crap that was your build. I never slammed your car, nor am I slamming this one... The fact that you think I am is just your opinion, and it is not the opinion of the people "defending" me, so you are going to find you are the odd man out here. As mentioned before I built both of my 3800 turbo cars (and frankly a large handful of others, and had my hands on many more), so you bring nothing more to this thread than Ronald McDonald would.

quote One day this kid is going to piss off someone within driving distance of him.

The day I piss someone off on the internet by trying to help them, to the point where they enter my property to cause me harm, is the day I am glad I have a CCW. Until that day, I am not going to have any fears. As far as physical threats (which is what that was btw) go on pennocks, I have had more than a few, they all bitched out when they met me in person.... One even commented on how he bitched out and gave some excuse about how I was skinny or something???

quote Don't let this crap bring your thread down.

Again here you are making crap out of gold ( I thought people have been trying to convert crap into gold for years now??). The situation is... I have done EXACTLY what this guy is trying to do. I know what he is doing wrong from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, and I also know things that he (and I) could do better.... If the OP and I could mesh a bit here... we can both progress much further than one of us alone could in terms of engine building is concerned.

YOU are the only person here that seems to think I am such a bad person trying to help people.. I couldnt tell you why, it is more than likely a personal problem YOU have. As far as the "people within driving distance" go... they come see me for things based the POSITIVE attitude that I project on all things in life. I know that the way I do business so to speak is perfectly acceptable to people that I actually want to be friends with.

Its obvious now that I tried to help the wrong person.... And Michael, I know for a fact that I am not the only one that feels this way about YOU.

I agree with absolutely everything above. He's being way to sensitive. And I understand exactly why he is, but I'm not about to start that whole ordeal in TECH. Back to TECH. Lets talk about some TECHnical details.

LOL! you guys kill me sometimes
Update on the motor. I have all the pulleys on the way now as well as the rest of the bolts I needed for it.
also the Dbl. Roller chain set and an SFI 8 rib balancer. the crank and the block are going to get Cryo today as well as powdercoating the cradle from an 88 to go in the car with this setup.

the pulleys are the ones we now sell they are 8 rib and all billet the water pump and the alt will be under driven by 10% and the SC pulley is 3.8
the SFI balancer will be 5% under driven on the SC side only. the turbo will take care of the rest.

the hardest part of this build is the money, I am just like everyone else here I buy the parts as I can. but it is not my only car so I can wait and do it right the first time.
I will post up some more pics of all the parts as they come in.
D.

Back to the build D! Your builds make me sad to look at mine... LOL

Hopefully when this thread hits the Construction Zone all the noize above can be deleted..............................

If money is an issue, please listen to our advice on where you can save money.

The guys making the most power out here in the 3800 world are running a significant amount of OEM stock parts.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Wait, I am that girl that can count to potato. Is there some mathematical formula out there that can calculate hp from et? If: Crank HP = 700+, then weight + temp + wind + elevation - traction lose - reaction time - shift speed = < 10sec. Dark, are you Steven Hawkings?

http://www.fantasycars.com/...0&submit=Get+Results

hawking is busy. dont call.

you know the best way to do an ultimate engine build thread is to just build it and post it as you go .putting a list of stuff you are going to buy and build ahead of time is just baiting us .and some of us are master baiters .

this looks like iit is going to be an exciting build, keep us all updated. everyone will have their opinions about what is or isnt the right part to use so just choose the best you think you have the means and the resources for.

Ignoring the parts others have already listed, i dont really like the part about the crank being "cut". I think a new oem crank would have been a better choice, but GL with the bearings/bottom end, I'm hopin it works well for ya. i think we will all learn a bit from this build about what actually works in the field.

I knew this thread would get lots of responces like this. I know that a lot of the stock parts are plenty strong enough to handle a lot of power but I am not doing a quick budget build here. when I started this project I knew that it would take time to get it all together due to funds and my time to work on it. and when it comes to motors here it is like building an ideal woman and saying it is the best one ever but it may not be the same for everyone.

the parts I am using have been chosen by me after countless phone calls with other 3800 builders and our work with them as well as other motors.

keep in mind this is going to be a shop showpiece to show just how far you can take one of these motors as well as a demo car and test mule for parts we sell.
D.

quote Originally posted by whodeanie: the clutch will be from Spec it will be custom made for this setup to handle the power.

Hopefully they will make you a dual disk setup. Their stage 5 single wont cut it.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Hopefully they will make you a dual disk setup. Their stage 5 single wont cut it.

yes, we are working on a dual disk setup

quote Originally posted by whodeanie: yes, we are working on a dual disk setup

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote I know that a lot of the stock parts are plenty strong enough to handle a lot of power but I am not doing a quick budget build here.

Meh. You are confusing spending money with things being better.....

quote http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/whodeanie70/008-14.jpg

If someone gave me those heads to put on a motor, I would scrap them and put stock ones on. You lost the dshape on the exhaust ports, and overall they are uneven looking. The valve seats also look like stock ones that have been cut....

quote the axles are being custom made by a local company

Custom outers or are you running a new outer knuckle?

quote I will also be installing an LSD.

As said before, this is a great place to decrease complication and increase your wallet. A LSD will never function as a LSD unless you break an axle and want to load it on the trailer under power.

It would also be cheaper to just get a ST5 cam, instead of doing a custom grind.

I figured I'd throw my $0.03 in the ring here. I have ABSOLUTELY no experience working on cars, just what I have read on the internet.

As for spending money on a build. It is the cheapest man who pays the most. This theory has been proven over and over again in my field.

The D shape on the heads? With a roots blower, lesser exhaust restriction has been proven over and over again to make more power. All the headers we build are not D shaped, so why should the chambers be. Every set of ported heads on a 3800 that I have seen have round exhaust ports.

The outer cv joint and hubs should be made larger as they are a weak point according to the driveshaft shop. They are only good up to 500whp before they have issues.

A torsional LSD will greatly benefit the car IMO. It is a lot of money, but the car will launch much better and oversteer in the turns a bit, but, I have one and wouldn't think of losing it if I had to swap the transmission in the future.

As for the trap speed to determine whp. I searched and found a few online calculators....entered my trap speed, car weight, and looked at my dyno slips. More than 70whp off on both cars. Maybe I went a little too easy at the track to save my axles and transmission.

Other than that, Good luck on your build Dean. I'll be watching and I hope I learn a few things from a great builder.

Dave

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www.hausofguru.com

quote but the car will launch much better

An open diff gives a 50/50 power split to the rear tires... what would a LSD be able to do any better?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: An open diff gives a 50/50 power split to the rear tires... what would a LSD be able to do any better?

Wins the n00bs over

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: An open diff gives a 50/50 power split to the rear tires... what would a LSD be able to do any better?

I undertsand the arguments as well as the point of view that an LSD is not needed in a Fiero, but if I were going for a higher HP engine in any car (front engine-front drive, front engine-rear drive, or rear engine-rear drive) that provided enough torque to spin the tires with ease I would install an LSD. Ideally an open differential will provide a 50/50 torque split to the drive tires. But that can go out the window with something as simple as unequal length halfshafts. The main reason I would do it is because in an open differential if you lose traction mometarily with one tire, the differential starts doing it's job as a differential and the likely outcome is wheelspin of the PS tire. In a high HP application if one tire begins to spin that allows the engine to rev up faster due to reduced resistance, and that open differential is going to bear the brunt of that abuse. I've seen differentials get grenaded, and the root couse is commonly one of the spider gears failing. When the torque is being evenly distributed out both sides (50/50), both halfshafts/axleshafts rotate at the same speed and the entire differential rotates as one (which means the spider gears are not rotating). When the tires are not spinning at the same speed (speaking in terms of a one legged burnout), the spider gears are spinning allowing one tire to spin while the other one is applying zero torque through that tire. An LSD simply "locks up" the differential under torque load, which forces the torque to be evenly distributed between both sides.

DH I'm sure you already know this, I simply explained it for those who may not understand it. I am also sure I have not changed your mind, but I will side with Dean on his decision to use an LSD in his trans. I would too.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: outer cv joint and hubs should be made larger as they are a weak point according to the driveshaft shop. They are only good up to 500whp before they have issues.

That's an easy fix. I learned this the hard way after breaking many outers like Justin recently did. I also dislike look of the heads but they should be better than stock...

quote DH I'm sure you already know this, I simply explained it for those who may not understand it. I am also sure I have not changed your mind, but I will side with Dean on his decision to use an LSD in his trans. I would too.

Sure I understand it, but after sliding around highways at 100mph, I can tell you a LSD is the last thing I would need in my car... There are much better ways to put money into this, spending 2000+ on a paperweight is not one of them.

I have never had issues spinning both tires when I need to...

quote They are only good up to 500whp before they have issues.

Rating axles at horsepower is pretty dumb. It is quite easy to break them with quite a bit less power... Violent crap going on at the wheels is where you are going to run into the biggest issues.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 12-02-2011).]

Will this car have an 88 cradle? Wheel hop wasnt as big of an issue as traction was for me...

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 12-02-2011).]

I'd just like to say that this is Dean's build. If he wants to paint the car with a pink Hello Kitty on the hood, that's his way of building it. A torsional differential is a matter of opinion on usage. He said that he is building the car more for show and a WOW factor. Well it would be a little embarrassing doing a one wheel burnout at a local car show with all that power. All the older guys will ask what kind of V8 the car has, the younger guys will wonder if there was room for a bigger turbo, and guys about my age and Dean's want to know if there is enough chrome to keep the power level up.

If I were to throw my opinion into this, I would recommend using the Ecotec due to the fact that it has been successfully built to over 1000whp. In 5 years the 3800 will be concidered old school. BUT, I am really curious to see the limits of the 3800 pushed. The highest hp 3800 I believe is in the 800+ hp range.

Dave

Do you really want > 800WHP? Do you have enough engine bay in the Fiero???

I was able to check that car out with the big single. Its impressive.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: I was able to check that car out with the big single. Its impressive.

Does it have > 750HP now? If so in a lil azz Fiero that would be wicked insane x2^10 on roids fast?