Thanks for the info... I figured that once the Bradava gives up its engine, I will let the engine in the Fiero run and see if it gets any better. I will also try cleaning out the carbon to see if that helps.

I spent some time this weekend with the engine running tracking things down.... It had a very bad rattle that ended up being a large nut resting in one of the exaust tubes and rattled like crazy when the engine was running. I certainly did not put it there, so I assume my little helper picked it up and put it where she thought it went (the exhaust is just about her height).

Removed the nut and the engine runs pretty good. I set the base timing and the minimum idle. I am getting the auto trans codes (since it is expecting to see and electronic auto trans and I have the non-electrical version installed). Those are the only codes showing so far and I will eventually take care of them.

Next is to fab up the filter housing for the intake.

Here are some video clips of the engine running... I think it sounds pretty good!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-11-2008).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I spent some time this weekend with the engine running tracking things down.... It had a very bad rattle that ended up being a large nut resting in one of the exaust tubes and rattled like crazy when the engine was running. I certainly did not put it there, so I assume my little helper picked it up and put it where she thought it went (the exhaust is just about her height). Removed the nut and the engine runs pretty good. I set the base timing and the minimum idle. I am getting the auto trans codes (since it is expecting to see and electronic auto trans and I have the non-electrical version installed). Those are the only codes showing so far and I will eventually take care of them. Next is to fab up the filter housing for the intake. Here are some video clips of the engine running... I think it sounds pretty good!

so youre not swapping the bravada engine in?

quote Originally posted by BobadooFunk: so youre not swapping the bravada engine in?

Not at this time. The roughness is no longer present, the rattling is gone and the engine is running pretty decent, so I will run it as is for the time being. If it goes south, I might search out a lower mileage engine to put it as both the one in the Fiero and the Bravada are 150K+ engines. I have the Bravada engine, trans, transfer, front diff and axles removed and on the floor in the garage - along with the engine harness and other misc electrical bits. What is left of the Bravada will be leaving sometime this week to the scrap yard.

I did a little work on the air filter today. Long term the battery will be relocated to the passenger headlight area to allow the filter to be mounted in the open area right below the battery/wheel well area like in this thread:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/083972.html

But until then the filter will be right under the decklid vent just to keep it simple.

Here is a pic retaining the flexible inlet tube:


And here is one with a stainless steel elbow.


Either way I will probably get a cover for the + terminal on the battery just for piece of mind.
I can retain the flexible rubber tube and have the filter down lower, or use a piece of stainless tube and mount the filter higher.

i must say i am quite interested in this swap and cant wait to hear your reviews on driving it and MPG... im a 6cyl fan ant that engine really just looks right and sounds great

Well it is finally time for a test drive!

This weekend I reinstalled the rear suspension, attached the rear sway bar, bled the brakes, reran the fuel line (too close to the new rear manifold), cut about 1 1/2" off the AC lines and installed them, installed the tranny cooler to the front crossmember, and used the stainless steel elbow for the air intake.

I ran the engine some more today with the car still in the air and the tranny shifted while the tires were spinning, so that is a good sign. Monday I will put the wheels on it for a drive around the yard. So far everything is running pretty good and there are no leaks. Maybe the poly bushings will loosen up eventually, but so far the engine does not appear to move when blipping the thottle.

Here is a pic from the top:


I am waiting for a video to upload.. I slowly reved the engine to 5K and then did several 3-5K throttle blips... I like the way it sounds.

oooo.. waiting!

I do not know how my camera turned the Fiero to grey, but trust me the car is still red!

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Here is a pic from the top:

I'm thinking that battery definately needs to be relocated. Just a suggestion.

Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: I'm thinking that battery definately needs to be relocated. Just a suggestion. Ron

Agreed! Maybe sometime later this summer...

looking good !

Well the 4.3 CPI Fiero finally pulled itself out of the garage. It went in there under its own power on 11/3/07 and now on 5/26/08 it is able to move itself again...

I took it for a shake down trip down the road a couple of miles. It shifts into each gear about 2500 rpm. The converter came with the tranny and was marked with 1895 stall, so I guess 2500 is about right for now - especially since I set the TV cable (cable fully extended at WOT). It shifted into each gear, but my road is rather twisty so I did not get up to 65-70 to see what the cruise RPMs are - will do after lunch.

I took a video after I got back from the maiden voyage so everyone can hear it outside, but it is still uploading.

Then I disconnected the fan and let it idle and heat up to 235 just to make sure no coolant hoses would pop off - rather have them pop off at home than on the road. Everything is checking out good and so far leak free.

I still need to put the interior back together and notch the decklid to clear the intake. Then install my emulator to start working on eliminating the auto tranny codes and get the TCC locking up.

ooo driving vids!

im loving this swap... hmm looks like theres room for a small turbo ... :P

I finally got through the first tank of fuel. I have been driving it back and forth to work - 19 miles 1 way with 9 stop lights. There are two 6-7 mile stretches that are open road. My house is located at a top of a very large hill, so there is quite a climb to get to the house as well. I drive this trek 6 to 7 times a week and have been for the last 2 years. For comparison my other vehicles have averaged the following doing this same drive:
1992 AWD Bravada with 4.3 CPI - 17mpg
1997 Full Size Chevy 4x4 extended cab truck with 5.7 - 17mpg
1988 SBC/Getrag Fiero - 17mpg

On the first tank, the 4.3 CPI/4T60 averaged 24mpg... much better!

Overall driving impressions... I am not a huge auto fan, and I find the 1895 stall converter annoying. At a stop, if I release the brake, the car will not move until I hit the gas, then it revs up to 1300 to 1500 and finally starts moving. My truck starts taking off with the release of the brake and is shifting to second at 1300 to 1500... I will be looking for a tighter converter for sure.

This 4T60 has the 3.33 final drive and I would prefer something with a lower final drive to reduce cruise RPMs. Since the tranny will have to come out to replace the converter, I might was well swap in one with the final drive I want. I am thinking the 4T60 from a late 80's 4.5 caddilac will have a tighter converter and a lower final drive and still be non-electronic controlled.

This is a fairly early 4T60/440-T4 - I pulled it from an 86-87 Rivera with 3.8 10+ years ago. The TCC does not behave like most of the 4T60 swap threads say it should. Put 12V to the TCC and ground the other terminal, the converter will NOT lockup in 1st or 2nd but will lock up once in 3rd gear and stay locked up into 4th as well. Everything I have read says that this should not happen, but it does. It will even unlock while coming to a stop once the tranny downshifts to 2nd (I am using non-brake activated 12V for this test). With the 1895 stall, having the TCC lockup while shifting to 3rd is close to a 2000 rpm drop (3K to 1K) and really lugs the engine. I found a thread where somone used a 60 PSI pressure switch in the governor pressure port and this would ground at about 50mph. I could not find a 60 psi switch, but found a 52psi one that a tranny shop used to control the TCC on some Dodge trannys. I hope to have this installed this week and see when it will lock up the converter.

Overall I am please with the swap and I am getting used to driving it. The mileage back and forth to work is 7 mpg more than my other vehicles, so I am please with that as well. I still need to take it on a long road trip to see what it will pull down on the highway.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Put 12V to the TCC and ground the other terminal, the converter will NOT lockup in 1st or 2nd but will lock up once in 3rd gear and stay locked up into 4th as well.

The 4T60 in the a Grand Prix with a 3.1L that I used to own operated exactly like this when you bypassed everything else and applied 12V directly to the solenoid. When everything was wired correctly there would be a slight 3-5 sec delay between the shift into 3rd and the torque converter locking up under light throttle and I agree that it did tend to lug down the engine quite a bit. Under heavier throttle it wouldn't lock up till much later. I have always been miffed as to why others report differently about the 4T60 but that car was my only experience with that transmission so I have always figured that there were differences between years.

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: The 4T60 in the a Grand Prix with a 3.1L that I used to own operated exactly like this when you bypassed everything else and applied 12V directly to the solenoid.

Cool, glad I am not the only one to have found this to be the case!

I installed the 52psi pressure switch in the pressure port for the governor. Now the TCC will lockup at 44mph and unlock at 40. Under normal load this will lock TCC up midway through 3rd gear which feels just about right. This is nice with the 1895 stall and actually feels lilke it is a 5 speed auto and keeps from lugging the engine.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-17-2008).]

So what is the report on your fuel tank mod?

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: So what is the report on your fuel tank mod?

I think the snorkle end fell off. Before the first fillup, I used the fuel pump to pump the tank dry (or as close to it as possible), then I added back 1 gallon and went to the gas station to fill it up. I could only put in 9 more gallons so it was shutting off and only giving me 10 gallons in the tank...

I need to figure out a more reliable method of holding the snorkle without using an open flame...

2nd tank averaged 28.4 doing the daily commute! This easily confirms the 24 on the first tank, but I will hold off celebrating the 28 until it does it a second time.

For this tank, I had the pressure switch controlling the TCC and it was engaged more of the time than when I was switching it on/off manually.

It still has a slight occasional stumble, so I have a new Dephi Injector Spider on the way. I still need to get some interstate travels to see what mpg it can pull down on the interstate.

So far I am pretty pleased!

That's excellent! Good to see such a large motor doing that kind of mileage

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I think the snorkle end fell off. Before the first fillup, I used the fuel pump to pump the tank dry (or as close to it as possible), then I added back 1 gallon and went to the gas station to fill it up. I could only put in 9 more gallons so it was shutting off and only giving me 10 gallons in the tank... I need to figure out a more reliable method of holding the snorkle without using an open flame...

I love the idea. Can you tap the end of the tube with a thin set of threads and screw it into the plastic hole?

quote Originally posted by kwagner: That's excellent! Good to see such a large motor doing that kind of mileage

The 4.3 is not know for good fuel efficiency, but most applications were over 3500lbs, had the aerodynamics of a brick and sometimes burdened with AWD/4x4. My 4.3 CPI AWD Bravada never got more than 24mpg on the interstate and 17 doing the work commute, so if the 28 on the commute is legit that is quite impressive (and better than the old 2.8/isuzu)

my snorkie pics (old setup)

------------------



87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box
S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Last two tanks of gas were 25.4 and 26.5 mpg and now I have about 1000 miles on the swap. I need to replace the lower pan gasket since it has started to leak a bit, and I installed a new CPI spider a couple of days ago. I also want to replace the spark plug wires (they are old 2.8 plug wires) with some high quality cut to fit red plug wires.

Overall it is running pretty good and I am pleased with the overall results. Since completing the swap, this car has assumed the daily driver role and delivering 25 to 26 average MPG. My 17 mpg truck has been parked and only is used when I need it for truck stuff.

Hopefully before the end of summer I will get the A/C charged... I can not remember the last time I had working A/C in a fiero

The new tires for the blue SBC car finally came in (245/45/16) so the wheels purchased for the 4.3 car were finally installed today! Now both cars have matching wheels!

It's got to be an optical allusion but, the Red Coupe looks bigger than the Blue parts car.

Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: It's got to be an optical allusion but, the Red Coupe looks bigger than the Blue parts car. Ron

Its not bigger, its just puffing its chest and standing up on all fours trying to pick a fight with its bigger brother... but it just hasn't got enough in the trunk to back it up (atleast not yet!).

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Its not bigger, its just puffing its chest and standing up on all fours trying to pick a fight with its bigger brother... but it just hasn't got enough in the trunk to back it up (atleast not yet!).

Ron

I drove the SBC car most of last week, but the 4.3 is back to daily driver status this week. Haven't done anything to it since the CPI spider replacement.

I filled it up today and that tank averaged 26.7mpg.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I also want to replace the spark plug wires (they are old 2.8 plug wires) with some high quality cut to fit red plug wires.

I stumbled across this today. Don't know if it is a good deal or not but thought about your project when I saw it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...m=&item=190237073869

I have a couple of thousand miles on the swap and it continues to work pretty well and the fuel mileage continues to be in the 25-27 range.

A couple of issues have come up from the use of a used tranny:
Tranny has developed a couple of leaks.
The TCC solenoid stopped working this last weekend.

The two items of the swap that I really do not like are:
The near 2000rpm stall of the converter
The 3.31 final drive - does not significantly lower highway RPM from the Isuzu

I am a die hard manual tranny guy, but opted to go 4 speed auto to greatly lower the cruise RPM for a significant fuel mileage increase. The near 2000 stall is really annoying to me and it must go. I ordered a converter from a 4.5 V8 Cadillac application with a 1525 (Autozone part # GM70 - $93.99). The 4.3 is a lower torque application, so the stall with the 4.3 should be slightly less. While the tranny is out for the converter swap, the leaks and the TCC solenoid will be fixed. If this converter is not tight enough, then I might just have to swap back to the Isuzu that was originally in the 88.

Here are some pics of the engine/tranny/cradle back out of the car and ready for disassembly. As you can see space is a premium in the garage these days...

I realy like the 4.3 and think you did a great job and I am wanting to put one in my 86 GT . I want to use a 96 or up due to they have better heads I think but Iam scarde sh## less of the wiring so I would do a carb plus i want a cam that wouldnt work with the computer but would like a 4 spd auto

im really likeing this thread... i was thinking aout the 4.3 also but i hadnt seen any 1 put 1 in yet.so i didnt know where to begin.. ( i havnt done and engine swap yet with a fiero yet).. so i still have to decide between 4.3l and 3.8 sc.... but nice thread and it should be alot of help

Engine man a wiring harness isn't that big of a deal. There are a few issues to work out but many people on here can help with that. A lot of people get their first panic attack when the pull the harness apart and then look at it like a bunch on noodles. Here's the true way to look at a harness.... ONE WIRE AT A TIME. That's it. The vast majority of the wires will return to the ECM. The rest will go to one of four places. C203, C500, Power Distribution block, or ground. The hardest part is deciding which fuse a wire should go to, That we can help you with.

Ok thanks I dont know what would happen with the cam I want to use it dosent say computer compatable what would the computer do with the fuel go crazy

Thanks for the compliments.

engine man
At one time I was intimidated with the wiring too, but as stated above do one wire at a time. I prefer to totally disassemble the harness and run each circuit 1 at a time to route the wires where I want them. With the 4.3's - if you get a minivan harness, they have significant excess length.

I will eventually swap out to the 96+ engine for the heads and MAF setup, but I had two of the CPI engines already, so it was a no brainer to start with those. As far as agressive cams, tuning is a requirement to make them work, but many people run very agressive cams with EFI... it is all in the tune.

I am keeping the 4.3 mostly stock because its purpose is a fun commuter car with a target average of 28+ mpg for my commuting (and I am about 2-3 mpg away from that on average right now).
There will not be much activity on the disassembly this until next week sometime.

Thanks for the pep talk and i will take all of you up on picking your brain I noticed that you spread the cradle rails can i get away with out doing that. I have a 86 GT it has a bad engine so instead of just puting a stock engine in then doing a swap latter i fell just suck it up and do the swap now.