Wait a second! I got time....Yea, maybe I can just clean around the shafts, PBR numerous times a day for a few days. Let the chemicals do the work. In a few days then I will grab it with a vise grips and see what happens. There is a good 1/2" there.. No heroics needed...yet. Your right Lou! ------------------ 84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-22-2009).]
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10:10 PM
aeffertz Member
Posts: 798 From: Ladysmith, WI Registered: Feb 2009
Did you take off your front bumper to jack that back this far up?
No man, it just looks dramatic because of the angle. It is about 45" up there. Doesnt ground the nose. Block the front tires front and back cause I think it gets light up there balance wise. It worked easy really. If you look closely you will see that my jacks didnt even need blocks under. But I did use block to raise the jack, see the pink bricks.... ------------------ 84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-20-2009).]
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10:14 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
Well, there is a coat of solid carbon over everything in there. Say....1/32nd of an inch. The center intake valves had spark plugs with too hot a rating so they are whiter, not cleaner. But no it's not like caked in there. Here's a closer pic..
Those white valves are exhaust valves. They're slightly hotter because the center two cylinders get a slightly leaner mixture distribution. Were your plugs "white white" on the ceramic, or were they tan?
[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 05-20-2009).]
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10:30 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Those white valves are exhaust valves. They're slightly hotter because the center two cylinders get a slightly leaner mixture distribution. Were your plugs "white white" on the ceramic, or were they tan?
errr OhYea!! I knew that...(not really). The plugs were white...maybe tan but only on the metal. Really not far from normal.... They were a different brand so I thought.....probably...
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-21-2009).]
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11:22 PM
May 22nd, 2009
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Woah!, here's something I just found out. Pistions that are .030 oversize are LESS than 1/32nd of an inch larger than stock. When I first saw the cylinder bores I thought man they are almost like new, but now I understand that wear is measured in way smaller incriments than I had the jist of. Just picked up a "vernier" micrometer and it measures at .0078125" incriments. This is the standard cheap kind and it can be that precise. $6.00 Menards. Now I need ti pick up a locking compass divider and I will be ready to go.... Since were talking like 1/64th of and inch it seems like just a cylinder hone could even out the pistons but if it were that simple there wouldnt be so many machine shops....?
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-22-2009).]
Here's something that seems odd to a 1st timer. The pistion bores look like there has not been extensive wear....and it has 175,000 miles on it.... It's knocking me out! Doesnt look like a bore job is in order but I gotta check the #s later for sure. Oh, notice the 2 bolts that broke off... These will be a pain...ug
Those broken head bolts may not be as hard to remove as you think. On the Duke the head bolts are "torque to yield", you tighten them to a specified torque and then "go a little more"...and they're not all the same amount, it depends on the length of the bolt. Make sure you follow the torque specs closely.
I had one of those same bolts broken on my '86 Duke when I got it and was afraid it was gonna be bad. I was replacing a blown head gasket and was doing everything in-frame, so I knew it was gonna be a pain. It was broken off a little shorter than yours, sticking up about 1/8". I took a scribe and cleaned all the gunk out of the chamfer, sprayed it with WD-40 (I know, there's better stuff to use, but hey), and let it set for about a day. When I went to take it out I took a cold chisel and hammer and started to back the thing out. After only a few light taps it started turning, and the rest is history.
When those suckers break off in a Duke it's not so much that the bolt is stuck in the threads, but more because of the torquing procedure. The bolts are torqued almost to the yield point, which can introduce tiny fractures in the bolt allowing corrosion to set up inside the bolt itself.
Which brings us to the following public service announcement: Always use new head bolts whenever you do the head on a Duke.
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08:30 AM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Oh well didnt work.... I will try drilling down through the center with a small bit and then expand the hole with larger bits and go for the "easy out" tool. If that doesnt work I can then continue expanding the hole and eventually pick out the pieces of the bolt. This way will work it's just a pain. I think the left handed drill bits might help here. I need a set of bits anyway.
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11:37 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Today was measuring day for the block. Most everything passed. The crank endplay, connecting rod end play, connecting rod bores, crank journals, piston size, block bore, the whole schpeel. Tentative on the bores as I have yet to get the proper tool there. So, it LOOKS like no major surgery, just bearings, bolts, seals and cleanup. There was a ding on the oil pan, cylinder 3 got some scuffing, and mineral build up in the water jackets, and surface rust on the block all of which was remedied today. When I get the locking caliper/divider I can double check on the bore sizings and get the bearings.
Didnt have a telescoping guage for the cylinder bores so I fabricated one out of aluminum pipe shown here. With it I am getting a bore size of about 4.004 which seems crazy for a 175,000 miler. So to be sure I am waiting to obtain a dedicated measuring devise to double check.
Things coming along.
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-23-2009).]
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11:42 PM
May 24th, 2009
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Well had a little down time so I gasket matched the ports on my intake manifold. While I was at it I polished the aluminum. At first I just wanted to clean it good but then I remembered someone saying something about how aluminum can be polished up. Used a small coarse steel wheel for basically all of it then finished with a larger fine. It's not like chrome but it is smoother. I figure it will keep better (grime won't stick as well) so it was worth the time. I hear they have clear engine enamel now.... ------------------ 84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-24-2009).]
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12:47 AM
PFF
System Bot
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Here's something I dont hear much about. Besides gasket matching the ports I smoothed the transition from the TBI to the runners by carving a concave path. This way the 2" port eases to the 90 degree change of direction. I think this will allow more air than if the charge were to have to go another 1/4" and make an abrupt change.
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01:01 AM
Jun 9th, 2009
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Well I found a lot of metal to remove on the exhaust side but it cant be roughly hogged to match so much. What I could do is allow the exhaust to flow better by carving a shallow transition. The English call this "Gas Flowing" I guess. The pipes and welds wont allow for porting more than a few centimeters in but that's enough to make things flow a little better. See the pic to know what I mean. ...OOHHH so thats how to fit a round hole with a square peg....hmmmm
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 06-30-2009).]
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02:18 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Well, got those bolts out! The heat really worked.. Just heat it up for the time it takes to drink a beer...like 15 minutes and than give a try. All the head bolts get a thread sealing so this may be why they tend to stick. One of the bolts came out without drilling the other was drilled like this...
Then I heated it up for a good while with the extractor inserted and it came out easy.
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and , Now ya gotta check the top "deck" of the BLOCK to see if all that heat on 1 spot "warped" it !
Yea, checked it with a straightedge and a feeler and there no major warpage.
The project is taking a lot longer than I thought. But I wanted to actually measure before replacement or machining. Here's a list of what needed done... New gaskets: Head, Intake manifold, Exhaust manifold, EGR, Rear main seal New piston rings New cam shaft (performance) New valve lifters New bearings: Cam, Main, Connecting rod New freeze plugs all around New head bolts Valves refinished Bores deglazed Massive cleaning, wire brushing and rust treatments New paint for the block, pan, covers and snorkel Porting (gasket matching) basically every port Previously exchanged the stock EFI with the Holley Big Bore I was lucky to obtain Also trading out the old muffler for a Glass Pack.
Here she is so far...
Went with the traditional red/black and silver.... Every thing is waiting for those goofey bolts. And some Decals from Fiero Sails.
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 06-30-2009).]
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09:04 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
I wanted to show everyone how easy it is to do the porting. All I used was a rotary rasp on a high speed drill. Like this one. It is pretty cheap but decent removal of metal is possible. Another good thing is it seems to work nice and slow. It didn't seem easy to take off too much like I have heard others warn about with the die grinders and flame shaped carbide rotary files.
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 06-30-2009).]
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09:33 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Rustoleum will work for muffler ,,use VHT ceramic for the exhaust manifold
Alright....I already painted the manifold with the Rustoleum. So Ill just paint the glass pack with the same. Well, it wouldnt be so much work to take off the paint on the manifold and buy a can..... Maybe I'll do that. Thanks
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rustoleum not suitable for exhaust manifold,,it should not catch on fire but watch it untill it just smells bad even 1300 rated paints will burn on a V 6 manifold the iron manifolds the paint does not burn as fast.. My post on performance parts is just for information,, you have to do some research.... I have pages of duke performance info some no longer relevant,, the sites are gone,,, but the parts are out there.. like the custom manifold to mount weber carbs on a duke ,,or the dohc pontiac factory head for a duke !!
CALLING ALL DUKE OWNERS PURCHASE EVERY MARINE DUKE FINNED VALVE COVER YOU CAN FIND !! THE ONLY EXTRA MARINE DUKE VALVE COVERS SHOULD BE ON FIERO,S ....even better than a super duty valve cover..If you are a duke owner & in your heart you do not covet a fin valve cover ,,, begone with you.. this is the most neato jet visual mod !!
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12:28 AM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
You bet I want a finned valve cover! I was thinking of making my own via pouring some molten aluminum. I have ordered the Pace Car 84 decals which give a good ribbed look but it (IS) just a decal. Woah on the DOHC. I was thinking of that too!!!! You reading my mind? Seems there is no reason why not after looking at it from the inside. Also no reason why not on a timing chain although I have no prob with the fiber gear, it's very 80's future thinking retro. On the double carbs...why not a higher outpour fuel injecter? Also, I have plans for a fuel warmer and supercharger set up taking my Duke to Smokey Y territory!... But 1 HP per cubic inch will be quite sweet if it can be done with mods....but I am dreaming (not that I won't do those things next year) and I gotta get this Duke rolling THIS WEEKEND!!!!!! YEEHAaaaaa!
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01:10 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
YAAAhooey! This 4th of July there will be fireworks in my garage one way or another! Either I will start up this hopped Duke and take it for a thrilling spin or it will blow up! Or....I will get pissed and torch it!!!! Stay tuned!!!
Today I will lower the Duke onto the cradle connect the tranny and electric and see how far I can get after that. The 4th I will complete the hook up and start it up and BAM! who knows?
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 07-03-2009).]
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01:14 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25624 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
"YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME, IT'S A CRAPPY MOTOR, GET A V6, blah blah!!!"
Hah... but to answer your question.... well, I'm sure there are TONS of responses on what and what not to do, but just in case any of this has been missed, I became aware of the following:
1 - Make sure you go with an 85.5+ motor. It has roller lifters. All 84s, and many early 85s had flat-tappen lifters. The roller lifters, while not necessarily producing more horsepower, do reduce drag, less heat, etc... and ultimately lead to better performance, and a smoother engine.
2 - The stock exhaust manifold isn't so bad, but if you can find one of those old Hooker Headers, it's a great improvement and especially made for the Fiero.
3 - Replace the factory cat with a newer style one. The one that came stock on an 84 Fiero is nothing but a charcoal pellet filled canister, it hurts perfomance badly, and does nothing for emissions (honestly). The newer cats that use the ceramic honeycomb innards are MUCH MUCH more efficient.
Got some VHT ceramic paint for the glass pack and manifold. Will have to wire brush the manifold again but hey....I got a handle on that and have the tools already...no prob!! This stuff seems like it wold be good for the entire exhaust so as to keep the corrosion to a minimum doesnt it? Gotta remember that when replacing exhaust parts....
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01:24 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
"YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME, IT'S A CRAPPY MOTOR, GET A V6, blah blah!!!"
Hah... but to answer your question.... well, I'm sure there are TONS of responses on what and what not to do, but just in case any of this has been missed, I became aware of the following:
1 - Make sure you go with an 85.5+ motor. It has roller lifters. All 84s, and many early 85s had flat-tappen lifters. The roller lifters, while not necessarily producing more horsepower, do reduce drag, less heat, etc... and ultimately lead to better performance, and a smoother engine.
2 - The stock exhaust manifold isn't so bad, but if you can find one of those old Hooker Headers, it's a great improvement and especially made for the Fiero.
3 - Replace the factory cat with a newer style one. The one that came stock on an 84 Fiero is nothing but a charcoal pellet filled canister, it hurts perfomance badly, and does nothing for emissions (honestly). The newer cats that use the ceramic honeycomb innards are MUCH MUCH more efficient.
HA HA HA ha!! Yea yea! Got Dickman's cat on it now thanks. As for the other stuff....doing the best with what I got. Thanks again!
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My Duke is still apart in the garage right now and I won't get to work on it again 'till Monday. Not doing anything as neat as this though.
Man!!! I would have to admit one thing.. An overhaul will take at least twise as long as you think. ug. Anyway I was able to insert the engine into the car (ug), connect up, paint (manifold paint), and install the entire exhaust, drain and fill the transmission, install the starter and trans splash guard, cut a few bolts down as I will omit the air conditioner and use the same bolts and begin the electic reconnect.
Right now I have an appointment but will (WITH ANY LUCK AT ALL!) start it up today...the 7th. Exactly 2 months from beginning the project.....
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10:43 AM
Jul 17th, 2009
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Yea! It runs!.... Pretty smooth, less noisy, I can tell it is more powerful but I have yet to take it out. Had it running on the 10nth about. I still gotta set the alignment better, put the hood on. But yea it's pretty cool. I got the decals last night and the bay looks awesome. Before when I first started it I had to fish around for the timing. It did get me to within striking distance. At first it worked better quite a bit advanced.....like 40 degrees! But I changed out all the vacuum hoses and reversed a suspected backwards cat and it fired right up in base mode and better ECM standard mode. It runs very smooth. I DID take it around the block and it has more power at launch although that was never an issue. Also I notice it is easier to get in the 3-4000 rpm range and the engine does not seem taxed in the least. I put on that glass pack muffler and it does sound fine at idle but at launch it sounds like a Harley. Not sure I dig that so much but I will see. Will show pics soon, apparently this library PC wont allow uploads.
But hey the operation seems to have been a success!! Totally worth it too! Spent about 300 bucks plus more for tools and stuff. Now it's smoother, stronger and better looking! I will get back with 0-60 times and gas mileage in a few weeks.
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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 07-21-2009).]
Last night I flushed and filled the coolant system. That wraps up the project. It runs great and I am sure it is quicker. I will be breaking in the engine for the next 500 miles and will cap off this thread with gas mileage, 0-60 times and general satisfaction #s for ya.
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12:26 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
I wanted to show pics of the gasket port matching... This is the intake done with the rotary file on a high speed drill. Took off 1/8" on 3 sides and smoothed passage.
Here's the exhaust manifold again as it was quite off the gaskets.. Notice the hole was round and now it's more square to match the gaskets. This was done on all 3 openings.
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03:32 PM
Jul 26th, 2009
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Didnt know it but my fuel pump was pretty tired giving only 6 psi! I guess this is enough for normal operation but not for stepping on it. So I replaced mine(rust treated the tank while I was at it) and woah!! This Duke rocks!!! For a Duke anyway wow! I am sure it will have #s like most V6ers. I.E. most 60 degree's are not fresh and well maintained. I bet I will get 8ish seconds 0-60. I have yet to get my plates but I have taken it around the block and when I accelerate the front comes up a little and I can feel the body kinda twist. The RPM jumps up to 4000 immediately with no restraint when gunning the engine. This is a different Duke than when I started! Doing these mods is definitely worth it!!
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01:41 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by White 84 SE: I am sure it will have #s like most V6ers. I.E. most 60 degree's are not fresh and well maintained. I bet I will get 8ish seconds 0-60.
I don't see where you've done enough work to support an honest 50 hp gain to put you in the same ballpark as a 2.8
quote
Originally posted by White 84 SE: Doing these mods is definitely worth it!!
I spent a considerable amount of time on a flowbench (as did a couple other guys at Roush) and none of us could achieve appreciable gains from port work on an 84-86 (767) casting head. I can say with certainty that what you've picked up is only a few cfm on the intake side and nothing on the exhaust side unless you've removed the restriction at the collector.
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07:57 PM
aaronkoch Member
Posts: 1643 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Aug 2003
Kurt, also consider that he went from tired old motor to fresh rebuild, new plugs, unclogged exhaust, etc. May not be 140HP, but I could totally see how it would feel MUCH faster than it used to.
