quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: So far my reconditioned long block search turns up $1200.00.

How about this one?

New connecting rods,, this is because of the problems from the factory,,NEW NEW NEW..
the second place not to scrimp is the cam bearings ,,if you have one doubt about this have an engine rebuilding shop do this ..you must use extreme care to install the cam bearings and make sure the cam has the proper clearence..
this is where many run into trouble use EXTREME CARE TO FIT THE CAM AND CHECK CLEARENCE ,a common problem is scratching the cam bearings,, use assembly lube only on the cam surfaces..any time you poke the cam in the engine ""ass,y lube"" do not use oil..
I have posted before on proper engine assembly from the cheap Garage ,,you can save money by cleaning out block your selve,,rifle cleaning brushes and tooth brushes are good here ..clean out the passageways,,you can use a scrub brush and hot water and soap to clean engine.. you can use foaming cleaners,, remove as much rust as possible ..you finish off by laying hose with nozzle in sun to heat water and spraying a few times, dry well
If you run low on money always spend on the block and scrimp on the head,, it is easy to remove on a duke
on cams that have threaded holes use bolts threaded into the cam to aid install you will see what I mean
an area where people screw up is when the crank is placed in the block think about it?? and drop in,, in one easy fluid movement (yea sure( No bong activity before)
you can hone the intake manifold .. remove flywheel before you put on engine stand,,at the cheap garage we build an engine stand from 2x4 the engine sits on/in it..AN ENGINE STAND PAYS IN EASE AND QUALITY WORK
I rescue diff size boxes from dumpster for parts

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: How about this one?

Woah! Rollers and a stronger crank and the work already done....sheeesh!

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: How about this one?

Oops... I just noticed that's a VIN U motor. You want a VIN R.

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: Oops... I just noticed that's a VIN U motor. You want a VIN R.

Naw..thanks man! I totally appreciate the suggestion and heads up, way cool! But really, doin it is enjoyable sorta and I learn alot about me car. I have found more rust around the rear of the space frame than I assumed. It will be great to address that while I have it's back end in the open air!

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-14-2009).]

I emailed the fiero store about there performence cam for the duke.
I asked how much extra hp I could get from it.
They replyed about 10hp.
Just thought i would share that bit of info...

2x4 is actually for motor cycle use ,,you want something you can place the engine on and turn it around ,,try to borrow or rent engine stand,,probably to late for this ,,
you can use 2x 6 not as easy to move as motorcycle engine ,,you have to have a bench to lay it on
I use card board for a lot of different things,,better than a creeper under a fiero,,you would lay cardboard under your engine stand which is just a box ,square or retangle you add 2x4,s to box to bring engine to where you want it.
you can also build a cheap garage stand from a stout piece of plywood bolted to the clutch end ,how you brace the front is up to you
a duke is light enough you can supend it from garage beam or a stout saw horse keep the weight off the beam except when you move or turn the engine..just make sure it will not chrash to the floor
any parts you reuse should go back in the CORRECT hole
soak reused valve train parts in chem dip
I clean lifter bores with old denim material
because of problems from factory,,duke fiero rods should be new,,DO NOT TAKE A CHANCE HERE crank journals that are not scored,OR GROOVED ,that are nice and smooth can be cleaned with crocus cloth
WHEN OLD PISTONS ARE REUSED CLEAN OUT WITH RING GROOVE WITH OLD BROKEN RINGcarefull
wobble valves around in guide to check fit
never reseat valves with drill use rotating suction cup,, don,t care what the performance magazines say
plasti gage is your friend
clean dirty spark plug wires with hand cleaner ,,keep the liquids away....the hand cleaner penetrades enough....use pistons to push rings down in cylinder and check gap,,I like it "tight" with lube,,it feels better
if you are clumsy! carefull scraping carbon ,,liquid gasket desolver/ cleaner may be your friend
the duke manifold can be partially honed
I know that honing lifter bores is recommended DON<T do it unless they are messed up
if you know what you are doing,, you can match push rods for a quieter duke,if you seem to have one or more loose push rods you can get them in increments to fit...I think they are big block chevy,,difficult to find the pontiac stuff even tho same o same o
you can run heavier oil( 20w 50) in a duke it will quiet it down,,recomended in hotter parts of the country

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: 2x4 is actually for motor cycle use ,,you want something you can place the engine on and turn it around ,,try to borrow or rent engine stand,,probably to late for this ,, you can use 2x 6 not as easy to move as motorcycle engine ,,you have to have a bench to lay it on I use card board for a lot of different things,,better than a creeper under a fiero,,you would lay cardboard under your engine stand which is just a box ,square or retangle you add 2x4,s to box to bring engine to where you want it. you can also build a cheap garage stand from a stout piece of plywood bolted to the clutch end ,how you brace the front is up to you a duke is light enough you can supend it from garage beam or a stout saw horse keep the weight off the beam except when you move or turn the engine..just make sure it will not chrash to the floor any parts you reuse should go back in the CORRECT hole soak reused valve train parts in chem dip I clean lifter bores with old denim material because of problems from factory,,duke fiero rods should be new,,DO NOT TAKE A CHANCE HERE crank journals that are not scored,OR GROOVED ,that are nice and smooth can be cleaned with crocus cloth WHEN OLD PISTONS ARE REUSED CLEAN OUT WITH RING GROOVE WITH OLD BROKEN RINGcarefull wobble valves around in guide to check fit never reseat valves with drill use rotating suction cup,, don,t care what the performance magazines say plasti gage is your friend clean dirty spark plug wires with hand cleaner ,,keep the liquids away....the hand cleaner penetrades enough....use pistons to push rings down in cylinder and check gap,,I like it "tight" with lube,,it feels better if you are clumsy! carefull scraping carbon ,,liquid gasket desolver/ cleaner may be your friend the duke manifold can be partially honed I know that honing lifter bores is recommended DON<T do it unless they are messed up if you know what you are doing,, you can match push rods for a quieter duke,if you seem to have one or more loose push rods you can get them in increments to fit...I think they are big block chevy,,difficult to find the pontiac stuff even tho same o same o you can run heavier oil( 20w 50) in a duke it will quiet it down,,recomended in hotter parts of the country

Woah thanks man! I plan on larger push rods, since I have the Holley TBI the manifold is getting gasket matched(almost done with that already), there is a lot of restriction there! The head will be harder to port being iron but there is less metal to remove. I think a rat tail file and a rasp can make quicker work of it and finish with the stone grinding rotary.
So, you think plastiguage instead of measuring tools ay? I have to admit it is easier to obtain and also recommended via factory manual. You know if you use the micrometers you can check the stuff going IN too!! I like the Duke purr but it IS a bit noisey. I want to find some safe method of sound dampering. The air filter housing, lifter and valve covers need something.....? Any thoughts?

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

quote Originally posted by joshh44: I emailed the fiero store about there performence cam for the duke. I asked how much extra hp I could get from it. They replyed about 10hp. Just thought i would share that bit of info...

Ten's cool, thanks bro.

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

Do not try to sound deaden the engine ,,EXCEPT to use 20w50 oil,,for those duke owners reading this ,,20w 50 is a partial rebuild in a can it will increase oil pressure it will tighten up clearance in the summer

You can quiet an engine by placing sound deadner to the lid
remember you can remove the plate under the TBI to gain 1 horse power IF your engine is in great condition and does not back fire ..
The 84 to 86 duke puts out a fierce,, tire smoking 80 to 85 horse power ,,so do modifications that increase fuel MPG these normally add performance also
If possible in your area run the cherry bomb or thrush ,, the cherry bomb 23 inch is easiest to fit # 87097 2 inlet 2 outlet
You cut out the cat ,,cut as close to cat body as possible,, grind down welds ..drill holes in clamps for springs..
the best modification for a Duke is a straight thru muffler and the sound is neato jet!! the V6 is a tad loud with a Glass pack
you clamp the cat outlet"" rear pipe to muffler"" to the rear of the cherry bomb !! then fit the front to the J/L connector pipe... this setup is quiet at Idle ,,but as good as it gets as you push your foot to the floor

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: General duke ,,performance info BEST cheap crank=88 s10 beefier will fit duke merc cruiser 181 crank harder to find ,more expensive,,best piston for 181 crank is Pontiac 301 turbo pistons.. HOOKER header ,used... difficult to find On the S10 forum=The mythical 3.0 liter crankshaft found duke pistons same as 301 pontiac use metal cam gear chevy VAN duke starter on same side as duke Fluid dampner use to sell performance balancer for the duke HEADERS ?? clifford research still has the flanges to make your own headers .. better to hammer/ cut up an 88 duke stock header

Hmmm... wow pretty hardcore info. If I have to change the crank I will go with an S10, 88 huh thanks buddy! All metal timing gears are the word. The fiber ones go bad I guess. But my Duke 175,000 on it and its flywheel is like....SWEET! What's up with these engines, they seem INDESTUCTABLE!!! Have yet to see the block from the inside... My rods have gone the distance too, appears I havent gotten one of the bad batch... Think I am just going with bearings but have yet to get inside!!!

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-17-2009).]

Alright, Got the Duke up on the engine stand and romoved the lifters and pushrods. They seem O.K. but I noticed some gouging on the #4 exhaust lifter. Looks like some serious foriegn matter was stuck under that lifter. All the lifters are somewhat worn but not dramatically. They all came out easy. Some of the rockers were looser than others.... This may be a major noise maker..? Anyways some were not torqued to spec.
Oh, I used the garage cross beams and some doubled up 300 lb rope to nudge the engine off the cradle and high enough to mount onto the stand. Used a seperate rope on each side of the engine. I wheeled the dolley to where the cross beam was doubled making it a 6x6" beam.

Oh, just off I notice there is a decent amount I can remove off the intake ports.


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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-18-2009).]

I have never rebuilt a duke !! I have done modifications ,,I had an 88 duke ..I now have an 86 GT it runs fairly good ,,when I had the late model duke head on the duke it would have blown my V6 away up to 50mph.
I have had the head off a duke off many times,, but never rebuilt the engine ,,When I sold the duke it was back to stock..
The last dukes made can easily put out 110 horse power when the stock emc for the engine is used..
My first Fiero was a GT duke I knew very little about fieros .I purchase the car from a high school chum who I soldiered with ,,He was a perfectionist..The engine was very quiet and would probably run the 0 to 60 in 7 seconds I only thought the quiet engine was unusual,, I want a GT duke again but my lifes work now is an 86 GT V6 that every bolt has been over torqued.
Much of the duke modification info has disapeared from the internet ..
TO ME.. The best duke is an 88 duke from a fiero,,or BETTER ,, buy a running 88 ,,the 88 duke with no options was the best Fiero made .
The best modification to a early duke is to clean up the ports,, port match,,try to find a header and run a glass pack, It is not going to be fast..just faster

The only advantage the V6 has is its faster ,,Of course this is important to most males,,Both engines are reliable ,,but if you run them hard ,,they are not built for this..
Any 91 duke is a big improvement
there is nothing wrong with the fiber gear ,, the metal is just better ..
you want to open up the 84 to 86 duke head ports very little,, just clean up the flow
you might want to replace the damaged lifter bores lifter
You will have difficulty trying to quiet the duke ..just use a heavier oil... You need an experienced person to examine your damaged lifter bore ..chances are if a duke was running ,,it will run a long time with the bad lifter bore..
It takes some experience to read a mike ,,and if you do not have a set of mikes ,,.It is better to use plastic gage
If I have time I will look up some old performance sites
Go to the S 10 site I mentioned
Be carefull and use the plasti cage
The cylinders are cleaned out LAST with a white cloth with oil on it to remove hone residue..
Do not scrimp on the work on the block ,,better to go cheap on the head because you can easily redo later
Use fel pro gaskets.. rol a 2nd Choice,,good head gasket..

She was an expensive looking woman,,Now Im broke

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 05-18-2009).]

Talking about expensive girls....yep Been there done that....strangely worth it ay?

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Like the metal cam gears...are they noisier?

I have the metal drive gears for the camshaft on my SD4. They ARE noisey as you have a constant gear whine, only noticeable at idle though.

SITES that still may be open
the res o dent Guru for manifolds & holley>.>> http://the-stickman.tripod.com/
http://ironduke7.tripod.com/index.htm
http://mywebpage.netscape.c...erost4rsc/tst4e.html

and of course for the dreamers www.kansasracingproducts.com
I have trouble posting web sites hopefully this will get you to the areas
Go to northern illinois fiero enthusiast site

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 05-18-2009).]

quote Originally posted by fierosound: I have the metal drive gears for the camshaft on my SD4. They ARE noisey as you have a constant gear whine, only noticeable at idle though.

Thanks! I heard there is a way to oil the gears.... I figure this is the reason for the fiber gear and that it will tear easy saving innerds in case of some mechanical jam up. I hear the GM replacements are better than the original issue stuff and that they are still fiber. Even though my basic attitude is to replace items with the performance version when it needs, I may just go with standard for a replacement for these....thanks.


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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-18-2009).]

above the timing gears there is a little "tube like" thing sticking out, this is what oils the gears.
I rebuilt a few Dukes, use the fiber gear unless you like engine noise.(from your other posts, you are trying to get RID of engine noise). lifters concave on bottom are junk. put in a NEW cam & lifters.
as for porting, I hope you realize that when you make the ports bigger, you gain HIGH RPM power and LOSE low end power (cuts down the "velocity" of the fuel air mix going through) you get more air, but it moves slower. don't fall into the "bigger is better" Trap ! oh, Larger pushrods will gain you nothing. why are you obsessed with the "pushrods" & not the "connecting rods" ?

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: above the timing gears there is a little "tube like" thing sticking out, this is what oils the gears. I rebuilt a few Dukes, use the fiber gear unless you like engine noise.(from your other posts, you are trying to get RID of engine noise). lifters concave on bottom are junk. put in a NEW cam & lifters. as for porting, I hope you realize that when you make the ports bigger, you gain HIGH RPM power and LOSE low end power (cuts down the "velocity" of the fuel air mix going through) you get more air, but it moves slower. don't fall into the "bigger is better" Trap ! oh, Larger pushrods will gain you nothing. why are you obsessed with the "pushrods" & not the "connecting rods" ?

Hey thanks! Righto on the gears, Check on the new cam and lifters, uh oh on the porting.....I do want more low end torque and not concerned with high reving power......but I've already gasket matched my intake manifold and there was alot to remove. Now....hmmm, I opened up the intake to TBI to 2" and the outs to head a fair amount. I am about to gasket match the head perhaps even tomorrow. You seem to suggest that this mod may hurt my pick-up. Pick up is what I want more of. Please elaborate, and thanks much Lou!

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: General duke ,,performance info BEST cheap crank=88 s10 beefier will fit duke merc cruiser 181 crank harder to find ,more expensive,,best piston for 181 crank is Pontiac 301 turbo pistons.. HOOKER header ,used... difficult to find On the S10 forum=The mythical 3.0 liter crankshaft found duke pistons same as 301 pontiac use metal cam gear chevy VAN duke starter on same side as duke Fluid dampner use to sell performance balancer for the duke HEADERS ?? clifford research still has the flanges to make your own headers .. better to hammer/ cut up an 88 duke stock header

got a couple of problems with the info here; the pistons were originally the same, but as the iron duke progressed; depending on what manufactuare there are 3-4 or more pistons for the iron duke

and the original flat top pistons in a newer iron duke cylinder head will give you over 10:1(more like 12-13:1, great if you feel like changing it to e85)(unless it is further down in the bore at tdc)

smoothing/polishing is a good thing. bigger is not always better. think of..... well, if you had a soda straw, & a piece of exaust pipe, if you were to blow into one end, the straw would have the air coming out the other end faster. if you blew through the tailpipe with the Same Amount of air, the air would move much slower. an engine IS an "airpump". an engine will only take advantage of big ports at High RPM. if you MUST port match the head, only go into the ports about 1/2-3/4 inch. if you want better flow, a tuned HEADER will do more for you.

There's a lot of misinformation, or at least incomplete info here.

1) Opening the "tube" up over the timing gears doesn't make as big a difference as you might think. A large fraction of the oil that ends up on the timing gears actually comes from the lifter valley on the side of the block. I strongly encourage you to take a breaker bar and spin the long-block engine over with the timing cover off while the oil pan is still full. You'll be amazed.

2) Head porting/gasket matching (the below info is relevant to 84-86 heads only):
The heads are pretty thin castings; you will have broken through into coolant passages before you've removed enough material to make a big difference in the way it runs. I have spent hours and hours on porting experiments on 767 castings (to the pretty extreme removal of the swirl wall), and there's just not that much to be had in porting. You will pick up less than 10 cfm, I promise. I also had the cylinder head guys at Roush take a crack at the 767 head on their off-hours to see what could be gained, and they came up with more gains from a fancy multi-angle valve job and back-cut than anything else. You're just handicapped by the short-side geometry with 84-86 heads

About port-matching, you can do it to your hearts content, but be aware that the bottom 1/4" - 3/8" of an inch at the beginning of the intake port in the head is dead space anyway. You can literally fill it in with clay and not change flow numbers.

About polishing: It makes the port "act bigger" because it thins the boundary layer. If you polish a port and notice an increase in flow, than you will gain by making it bigger. If you polish and there's no improvement, there's no point in going bigger.

I must have missed it if someone said to open up the drip tube above the gears. the factory gears lasted 80-100,000 miles, I'd say thats pretty good, better than any timing Chain I've ever used. I'd say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
when you say you want more low end, what you want is TORQUE. that is what you feel when you hit the gas, seeing as you don't want to go past 5000rpm with a duke anyway, do whats needed for more torque. generally speaking, you get more torque out of a "RV Style Cam" (short duration w/ a little higher lift than stock) CALL a company that actually grinds the cams, tell them what you have & what you expect ( what power at what RPM). Don't call summit or jegs , they just want to sell you something, Anything ! Ask the people who did all the "testing "when they manufactured it. (thats the best cam advice you'll ever get).
a good ignition is a good thing, maybe the timing curve can be recalibrated (in the prom in the computer). another thing, at 175,000 miles, I'd sure suspect the catalitic converter is not flowing like it once did. make sure your valve springs are within spec (don't go overboard with more pressure, it'll cost you more than you'll get). And it's harder on the rest of the valvetrain.

Thanks all! I am digesting the info here! As for porting I will try to smooth out the path transisitions so that there are less extreme angles and changes in shape and size but only if its obviously safe. As for gasket matching...welp I've already started that and I will have to continue but I will lean toward the safe side def! Will not mod any new oil holes by the way. Later today I will be working on the head and will post pics...!

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

That doesn't look like an abnormally large amount of carbon. How much of a step is there to that ridge in top 5/16" inch of the bore?

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: That doesn't look like an abnormally large amount of carbon. How much of a step is there to that ridge in top 5/16" inch of the bore?

Ya know Kurt, there was so little I thought it didnt even need the ridge reamer. I could barely feel it with my fingers. It was decieving as I found there actually was a ridge but still it was VERY small.

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

just HOW MUCH oil did you put in there ?! to go to 225 (should have at the most gone to 150), you put in WAAAY too much oil. in any event, thats not an incredible amount of carbon, the valves look halfway decent, Good luck with those broken Head Bolts. be real careful, plenty of PB Blaster, this being your first time on this, if you can't get them out by clipping a vicegrip onto them & screwing them out, Take It To a MACHINE SHOP, or you may crack the block.

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: just HOW MUCH oil did you put in there ?! to go to 225 (should have at the most gone to 150), you put in WAAAY too much oil. in any event, thats not an incredible amount of carbon, the valves look halfway decent, Good luck with those broken Head Bolts. be real careful, plenty of PB Blaster, this being your first time on this, if you can't get them out by clipping a vicegrip onto them & screwing them out, Take It To a MACHINE SHOP, or you may crack the block.

You know what I had some HD oil hanging about...it's thicker than normal. It was up to 150 without adding oil....The heavy oil is probably what did that... The manual could be more informative here. It only says that they should all be within 70% of each other and that none should be below 100psi. Mine were all 150 about but it took a couple revs to climb there.
Sure wouldnt want to crack the block dang. There were bolts in the there that never seen the sunshine or a drop of oil for 25 years. Regarding a "machine shop" I think they would drop the block and kick it a few times just for some extra $$$ and then charge me for it and say it cant be done. Sorry I am quite pessimistic of those thugs.
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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 05-20-2009).]