Because I was an idiot and left all my tools in Toledo, picked up the engine and '98 GPT throttle body, MAF, fuel rails, injectors and PCM in Cleveland, hauled it all home and realized I couldn't tear anything apart. Plus I have not yet ordered the adapter plate to put the older throttle body on the gen 5 supercharger.
Ditch the 98 TB and get a 99 up TB or a N* setup. The 98 flow less being there is a big obstruction in the middle of the TB.
Alright: When I first took a look at the cradle, WCF mounts, and 4 speed I was confused. By looking at them I couldn't clearly see where everything went. Since I had little time, no books/tools or even internet access, I left it alone. But now that I've been looking at a few pictures of other swaps I'm wondering a few things...
The top left area I circled... I don't see anything similar here: why is that?
The top right area I circled... I know the front engine mount and 3800 adapter will go there. But (I dont have pic to show) the WCF mount and the holes drilled in the cradle are off by about 1/2 inch
Finally, it's very hard to see in this picture, but the two bottom areas I circled are angled pieces welded to the cradle, but I'm not sure what would bolt on there.
Alright: When I first took a look at the cradle, WCF mounts, and 4 speed I was confused. By looking at them I couldn't clearly see where everything went. Since I had little time, no books/tools or even internet access, I left it alone. But now that I've been looking at a few pictures of other swaps I'm wondering a few things...
The top left area I circled... I don't see anything similar here: why is that?
The top right area I circled... I know the front engine mount and 3800 adapter will go there. But (I dont have pic to show) the WCF mount and the holes drilled in the cradle are off by about 1/2 inch
Finally, it's very hard to see in this picture, but the two bottom areas I circled are angled pieces welded to the cradle, but I'm not sure what would bolt on there.
Can someone enlighten me?
The top left is a mounting point for a auto as this cradle came from a 4 banger car. The mounting point across from it is for the engine mount. The other 2 are for mounting of part of the rear suspension.
The top left is a mounting point for a auto as this cradle came from a 4 banger car. The mounting point across from it is for the engine mount. The other 2 are for mounting of part of the rear suspension.
Great! I ordered "85-87 RECONDITIONED V6 ENGINE CRADLE" from the Fierostore for over $300 (including shipping and core) and they sent me a 4 banger cradle?
Great! I ordered "85-87 RECONDITIONED V6 ENGINE CRADLE" from the Fierostore for over $300 (including shipping and core) and they sent me a 4 banger cradle?
Can this still be used? What do I do now?
It will still work, it just has the extra mounting pad on it.
Ditch the 98 TB and get a 99 up TB or a N* setup. The 98 flow less being there is a big obstruction in the middle of the TB.
I finally got around to installing my N* TB and WOW! I can't believe the difference it makes. I was amazed at the throttle response and part throttle pickup the car gained. Love this mod. WOT picked up 2lbs of boost and doesn't seem much seat of the pants, but around town is amazing now. I never have to go above 10-15% throttle in daily driving, the pedal is so touchy now.
I finally got around to installing my N* TB and WOW! I can't believe the difference it makes. I was amazed at the throttle response and part throttle pickup the car gained. Love this mod. WOT picked up 2lbs of boost and doesn't seem much seat of the pants, but around town is amazing now. I never have to go above 10-15% throttle in daily driving, the pedal is so touchy now.
YEP--When I installed my LS1 TB setup, it was like night/day. I couldnt believe the change in throttle responce thru out the RPMs. You cant go wrong with a N* or LS1 TB setup.
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01:32 AM
thismanyfieros Member
Posts: 3468 From: Red Deer, alberta,canada Registered: Dec 2002
hmmm i like my N* Tb too, but skeptics claim without porting the Sc intake to match the Tb and doing the outlet of the SC too its pointless to run...glad to see others like me say they are full o'shiot....tim oh i see a ratings bar...damn i gots me some negatives...ahahha...i guess i need to file a hurt feeelings report...:P
[This message has been edited by thismanyfieros (edited 01-05-2008).]
I'll consider a northstar throttle body some time after the swap is complete. Performance mods that still need to be bought and installed are a 3.4" pulley and ceramic coated powerlog from zzp. I'll also need the pulley removal and installation tool.
I'm trying to get a flywheel from Purple Reign at the moment. The other things wait till next payday...
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02:46 AM
PFF
System Bot
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
hmmm i like my N* Tb too, but skeptics claim without porting the Sc intake to match the Tb and doing the outlet of the SC too its pointless to run...glad to see others like me say they are full o'shiot....tim oh i see a ratings bar...damn i gots me some negatives...ahahha...i guess i need to file a hurt feeelings report...:P
This would be true on a gen3, but the gen5 has a 72MM inlet compared to the 68mm on the gen3.
Another question about the engine cradle. If it came from a 4 cylinder auto, am I going to have to drill anything for the manual mounts? Does anyone have pictures or measurements of a v6 cradle and it's mounting points? I emailed Fiero Store saying that I believe they sent me a 4 cylinder cradle- they asked for a picture but said nothing more. I haven't replied yet- I'd rather not have to ship it back. I'm 3 hours away from my garage so I can't take a look myself
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01:47 PM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
Another question about the engine cradle. If it came from a 4 cylinder auto, am I going to have to drill anything for the manual mounts? Does anyone have pictures or measurements of a v6 cradle and it's mounting points? I emailed Fiero Store saying that I believe they sent me a 4 cylinder cradle- they asked for a picture but said nothing more. I haven't replied yet- I'd rather not have to ship it back. I'm 3 hours away from my garage so I can't take a look myself
the cradle you have is from a 87 4cyl auto, the 84-86 4cyl auto didnt have that mounting plate on it from what i can recall (ive stripped alot of fieros)
only the 87 and 88's used that type of mounting for the 4cyl auto's, ive got one of each of those cradles at my house now.
the mounting locations for the manual transmission are STILL on the cradle, it has a northern/southern mounting style, meaning one mount faces the firewall, while another one faces the trunk, im hoping that you still have the metal brackets that go onto that transmission cause you will need them for the mounts, worst case, i can show you pictures of what a 4 speed looks like mounted to a cradle (ive got one out back sitting in the rain with a 84 4cyl attached to it)
i always chop that 4cyl mount off all the cars that have it and use the v6 style auto mounts (if you had an auto) they are much stronger.
let me know if you need photo's ill try to get you some.
matthew
edit: im going to give a plug for loyde also, his PCM work for my n/a 3800 series II motor was spot on and fixed ALL the problems i was having with it, im glad he offered the $90 deal in this thread, im going to definatly take him up on that, ive got a 2000 buick regal motor with supercharger here at my house thats going to need programmed for my 88 coupe auto that its going into.
matthew
[This message has been edited by m0sh_man (edited 01-07-2008).]
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03:13 PM
thismanyfieros Member
Posts: 3468 From: Red Deer, alberta,canada Registered: Dec 2002
Another question about the engine cradle. If it came from a 4 cylinder auto, am I going to have to drill anything for the manual mounts? Does anyone have pictures or measurements of a v6 cradle and it's mounting points? I emailed Fiero Store saying that I believe they sent me a 4 cylinder cradle- they asked for a picture but said nothing more. I haven't replied yet- I'd rather not have to ship it back. I'm 3 hours away from my garage so I can't take a look myself
The cradle will already have the mounting points for the manuel trans. You can use the cradle they sent with no problems.
the cradle you have is from a 87 4cyl auto, the 84-86 4cyl auto didnt have that mounting plate on it from what i can recall (ive stripped alot of fieros)
only the 87 and 88's used that type of mounting for the 4cyl auto's, ive got one of each of those cradles at my house now.
the mounting locations for the manual transmission are STILL on the cradle, it has a northern/southern mounting style, meaning one mount faces the firewall, while another one faces the trunk, im hoping that you still have the metal brackets that go onto that transmission cause you will need them for the mounts, worst case, i can show you pictures of what a 4 speed looks like mounted to a cradle (ive got one out back sitting in the rain with a 84 4cyl attached to it)
i always chop that 4cyl mount off all the cars that have it and use the v6 style auto mounts (if you had an auto) they are much stronger.
let me know if you need photo's ill try to get you some.
if you could post those pictures I'd appreciate it! As far as the metal brackets- This tranny came from The Fiero Factory and is still attached to the little shipping pallet. I dont have any other parts. The original transmission is still in the car and I'm still driving it, so I can't take the brackets off. Any chance I could find those parts on here? If not I'll contact Fiero Factory and see...
Hopefully I'll have the engine and tranny assembled and on the cradle Feb 10th. GMpartsdirect said that the flywheel bolts were special order- 7 to 10 business days or longer. I didn't want to chance it so I called up Ed Morad from Morad part's company in Cleveland for some used bolts. That guy is awesome. He's mailing the bolts out tomorrow- didn't charge me a dime. All he asked was "Just tell other people how ****ing bad ass we are" haha
so here I am throwing out a good word for Ed like I agreed. I met him in person- turns out one of his employees is actually working on a Fiero 3800 swap of his own at this very moment haha. Ed has been a big help so far in the swap, along with Loyde, Purple Reign and a few others here on PFF.
Um...............this is just a suggestion, but those flywheel bolts are "torque to yield" and will have high risk if using used ones. I was planning on sending you new ones with the flywheel.
[This message has been edited by PURPLE REIGN (edited 01-29-2008).]
What exactly does "torque to yield mean"? I'd like to use new bolts... it's just GM parts direct makes me angry with their "special order may-take-a-month to ship 8 bolts" crap Thanks for the heads up...
Um...............this is just a suggestion, but those flywheel bolts are "torque to yield" and will have high risk if using used ones. I was planning on sending you new ones with the flywheel.
Nevermind, I googled Torque to yield and answered the above question myself. I didn't know the flywheel bolts were torque to yield... perhaps Ed didn't realize they were? Either way I'll use the new ones you send me. I'm still glad Ed was such a nice guy... but thankfully I didn't get stuck using used TTY bolts... sounds dangerous
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03:51 PM
joesfiero Member
Posts: 2181 From: North Port,FL,USA Registered: Jan 2008
Torque to yield bolts are stretched past their point of elasticity when torqued correctly and will not offer the same strength if reused. Im sure there are people on here who will correct me with more technical terms and dispute how they actually work, but I figured that is the easiest way to explain it.
-JOE
Nevermind, you posted minutes before I did.
[This message has been edited by joesfiero (edited 01-29-2008).]
Monday March 3rd I'm planning to get started, but I'm way behind schedule and I'm freaking out because several parts still haven't arrived. Paid for wiring harness a month ago. Hasn't arrived yet Still waiting on clutch/flywheel (that should be soon, it's machined already according to Reign) I just sent the PCM to Loyde yesterday (my fault for not shipping it two weeks ago when I went home) Adjustable dog bone from Rodney Dickman should be on the way
Still need to order exhaust parts and inline coolant fill T from summit. Also need to order poly cradle bushing from FieroStore. Since the whole car is getting ripped apart I should take the opportunity to install KYB shocks and struts. Should I order them along with the bushings from FieroStore or can they be found cheaper elsewhere (still new in condition)?
Also, questions about the heater core. I've seen pictures of a copper tube running to a heater core supply hose or something of the sorts... anyone care to explain what I'd have to do on an 85GT? Remove plastic elbow, tap hole (size?) and hook up copper tube with compression-NPT fitting? Keep plastic elbow and find a way to hold it in? I believe I read differences between 88 and others, so does that mean 85 is the same setup as 84-87?
[This message has been edited by zi_gravedigger (edited 02-20-2008).]
I dont like the idea of tapping alum and putting a steel/copper fitting in.... I used plastic on the LIM part, and squeezed a hose over it on both my swaps.
For the return, I made an adapter to set it up like the 88's.
I dont like the idea of tapping alum and putting a steel/copper fitting in.... I used plastic on the LIM part, and squeezed a hose over it on both my swaps.
For the return, I made an adapter to set it up like the 88's.
I believe it'd be a brass fitting to copper tube... I'm not a chemical engineer nor experience mechanic so I've got no clue what metals work/dont work together and why
anyways, any pictures? And how are the 88's set up vs the 84-87? I don't have my Haynes manual on me at the moment but I doubt it'd say much anyways
As I'm about to begin work on this swap, can anyone post some general suggestions? Things I can expect to run into... anything that may help So far I have: "PB blaster/WD-40" and "6 point sockets" are my best friends... can't remember which thread I read that in haha
And I'd still like a better understanding of the heater core. What is the stock configuration like on an 85GT? How must it be modified during the 3800 swap? Pics are always nice
I'm looking at getting my s2 3800 running before july, this thread will come in handy when I'm shopping for parts . I'll be watching this post through completion, that's for sure!
I'm looking at getting my s2 3800 running before july, this thread will come in handy when I'm shopping for parts . I'll be watching this post through completion, that's for sure!
P.S. Make sure to take lots of pics
Haha thanks... I'll take as many as I can. I just got a new digital camera (sony w55 i believe) but still need a memory card. That limits me to about 20 pics per day
anyways... heater core info anyone?
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04:11 AM
PFF
System Bot
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
i wanted to post earlier but I was a bit confused as what your confused about.
The water pump, has 2 inlets, one big and 1 small. The motor has 2 outlets, one big with a thermostat on the LIM, and a smaller one on the LIM.
The heater core circulates water the entire time the motor is running, without influence from the thermostat. I have a picture of the outlet here, which will be used in some form on all swaps no matter what the year. Loyde makes a outlet for the heater core over on the thermostat housing, but insures that it is separate from the thermostat function. I used the stock "elbow" and held it in with a bent piece of scrap that holds it in place.
As far as the return for the heater core goes, I tie in to the large input on the passenger side, 87/88's do this for you, and on the previous years I welded together a little fitting that emulates the way its done on the 87/88 style.
Alright, that's pretty much the info I was looking for. Just for clarification, what do you mean by LIM? I know the inlets and outlets you mentioned and the thermostat location. I just didn't know the hose routing of the heater core itself and how it's connected to the rest of the system.
Sorry to let everyone down... but I left my f***ing camera in toledo when I went home to start working on the swap.
I should have known that I wouldn't get this finished, and once that became obvious I changed my schedule a bit. Currently, the engine, clutch/flywheel and 4 speed are all bolted together and installed on the engine cradle. The supercharger and valve covers are painted. Fuel rails are also painted but not installed. 3.4 inch pulley pressed on.
Complications arose.... the largest being that my hobbyist-mechanic neighbor wasn't able to help out at all since he's working 60 hours per week. I didn't tear my Fiero apart... so the to-do list is: Drop cradle Install new cradle and KYB struts Install front KYB shocks.
sounds so simple haha I'll get this finished after this semester- some time in may I think.
Stupid question, but I guess I'll ask since I haven't found out for myself yet Will the stock Fiero V6 starter work on the 3800? Or will I be off to buy a new starter? If I need a new one... I believe it will be from a Camaro, but what year?
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07:51 PM
PURPLE REIGN Member
Posts: 4080 From: Minnesnowta ------------------ Land of White Gold Registered: Sep 2002
Your stock starter will work........................it's just a tighter fit. The newer ones are just an updated design.
Thanks... another question before I go trial-and-error What size belts am I going to need for the supercharger and accessories? I'll have no AC or power steering obviously... the Fiero's alternator will be mounted with Purple Reign's low mount bracket
I'll use the Goodyear gatorbacks... they sound like the best belt available
No one can give you an exact number because it depends on the size of pulleys you have installed. There are 3 sizes of idle pulleys in plastic. The steel idle pulleys come in two sizes I have seen.
you can start with 835K6 for the AC delete / no power steering pump / ALT up high...
872K6 for low mount from FastFieros / AC Compressor / No power steering pump..
