quote Originally posted by kawana: well this is a good question, see i had 2 routes i thought of taking when i do the swap, one was the brute force, lotta torque V8 muscle car route, then i was also thinking of a high revving, ferrariesque route. On that note, has anyone done a turbo 3.4 build? If so, what kinda numbers could be achieved while still having a reliable engine that isn't gunna go to the shitter to quickly :P Is that something that would be harder/$$er than a LS1 build? Either way, i want something that sounds good, fast, and needs to throw me back in my seat regardless of which i do, i want manual and i want a significant ammount of power over the stock 2.8, while the 2.8 is fun, i need more lol. Perhaps you are right about those numbers being a tad high.

a 3.4 DOHC is going ot have the most Ferrari-like sound...you can also build it up to rev very high...and with a turbo added, it would fall close to yoru power range

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: My motor/trans wasnt new but it only had 23K on it when I bought it. From that motor I modded it with cam, IC, LS1 TB, ect to get over the 300HP mark, which I am sure I have accomplished. The total I have invested in my car including the car is $5500 and only thing left to do is a put paint on it. I built the car to be fast, be a daily driver and to run some nice number when I go to the track. I dont care how you look at it, you are going to spend more on a LS1/2/6 install and still not be ahead of someone with a modded 3800SC swap. One key factor that everyone keeps over looking when wanting to do a high HP swap is what trans you are going to run that HP thru to get it to the ground. If you dont have a trans to handle the HP then you might as well not have a high HP swap to begin with. Everything said in this Thread can be argued for days at end but there is alot of good information in the Thread also. Everyone builds there cars the way they want to suit there personality and thats what it is all about.

Just out of curiosity how much was your engine?
What was the cost of the mods??

I just looked on Ebay and a 350hp LS1 (which is what the originator asked about) is at $1095 right now. Looking at 3800SC's they are around $900 to $1500. So the price of the engines used are about the same. So from a cost standpoint of the basic engine, it is the same. (I cannot get an idea what a used LS2 costs because every LS2 and most of the LS1's all come with the transmission so the cost is higher.)

So let's review:
The cost of the swap is a moot point. The engines (LS1 and 3800SC) used or new cost about the same. The parts required regardless if you buy a full kit or you piece it together yourself is going to be around the same. I'm sure we can all agree that the cost of the swap is always going to be more than the initial estimate as well because prices vary with area, quality of parts the installer decides to use, other things you find worn out or break during dis-assembly, and anything else the installer wants to change while doing the swap (like re-doing the engine compartment or the rear suspension.)

The work required is a moot point. Aside from adding an adapter plate and custom flywheel/flexplate (maybe 15 minutes of work??) all the work is the same. Mounting, wiring, hooking up the cooling system, adjusting/tuning the PCM, etc. is the same. Even if someone did a 3.4DOHC you still have the same things to do. So basically the cost of the swap and the work required to do the swap is not very different when broken down to the basic's. With the numerous swaps that have been done on here, an amature can generally locate the answers he seeks if he should run into a problem. How long it takes to complete the swap is more of a skill/ability than what swap you are doing. Those that have done a few swaps (3800Sc or SBC) can do the swaps quickly. Amatures or first time swappers are going to take longer because they are learning as the go.

The horsepower issue is also kind of moot. There are plenty of SBC's new and used all running around 300hp and the 3800SC with minor mods can easily run at 300hp. The transaxle issue is going to be the same. A 300hp engine regardless if it is a V-8 or V-6 is still going to push 300hp ( minus drivetrain loss) thru the transaxle. Tina's running roughly 400 hp thru a manual transaxle and she has killed a few with her 383 V-8, FieroX who if I recall correctly has dyno'd in the mid to upper 400hp range on his V-6 has eaten quite a few auto transaxles including a 65eHD.

So I agree with your statement: Everyone builds there cars the way they want to suit their personality and thats what it is all about.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: .... The horsepower issue is also kind of moot. There are plenty of SBC's new and used all running around 300hp and the 3800SC with minor mods can easily run at 300hp. The transaxle issue is going to be the same. A 300hp engine regardless if it is a V-8 or V-6 is still going to push 300hp ( minus drivetrain loss) thru the transaxle. Tina's running roughly 400 hp thru a manual transaxle and she has killed a few with her 383 V-8, FieroX who if I recall correctly has dyno'd in the mid to upper 400hp range on his V-6 has eaten quite a few auto transaxles including a 65eHD. So I agree with your statement: Everyone builds there cars the way they want to suit their personality and thats what it is all about.

I think this above summarize it all so well. You need some skills, space, good cash and time for any 300+hp swap. Treat it gently and it will last. But if you play hard then you will break anything and need to be ready to fix it. Ever heard of any racer who never break anything? Doubt it. If you like the feeling of grunt torque choose a V8. If you like to wait for it to wind up and feel the HP get anything else. Try to drive one even if it is not in a Fiero and choose watever you like most and have fun

My question about the difficulty of the 3.4 swap compared to the LS1 or 3800 was to meaning the mounting of the engine, ie// some drop right in (i forget which i was told work) and some (like the LS1) require the new mounts. Perhaps difficulty wasn't the right word, does the 3.4 DOHC require new mounting brackets (if so, is there anyone that sells these, or would they need to be custom made), or does it drop right in? Also, what would the cost of a used 3.4 DOHC (they are called LQ1's right?) be compared to a used LS1?(do they sell these as crate engines like the LS1's?) And cost wise, would it be better to buy new (if that option is available), or used and rebuild it (if need be)? I know rebuilding it would obviously be the harder route, but if the cost difference is good enough, it may be worth it, and it'd give me more things to learn how to do.

[This message has been edited by kawana (edited 11-15-2007).]

The only engine that "drops right in" is a Fiero 2.8.
Even the 3.4 requires mods to the starter mounting and AC, but it can use stock mounts.

3800SC - custom mounts
SBC - custom mounts
Northstar - custom mounts
LSx - custom mounts

The 3.4 DOHC uses 88 style engine mounts, IIRC. Mounting it is pretty easy, but you need custom fuel and coolant lines (like all swaps) and you'll need to make a custom wiring harness. http://www.dohcfiero.com used to have tons of info on the swap, but the site appears to be down right now. There should be lots of resources here to help you with the wiring.

Finding a good used 3.4 DOHC may be tricky since they haven't been made in 10 years but it's a good engine. It requires some cutting of the decklid hinge for clearance (those DOHC heads are HUGE) and even though it's got aluminum heads, it's a heavy engine (those DOHC heads are HUGE!). But it's a great engine for the Fiero.

Given that it's about 200-210HP stock, you could also consider a later model 3500SFI. They're a pushrod engine, but 200 HP stock and it'll be smaller and lighter - lighter than the stock 2.8, even. Another idea is if 200 HP is enough for you and you want a V8, check out a 4.9 Caddy. Very inexpensive and plentiful in the junkyards. It's the opposite of the DOHC, though. 4.9 = low rpm grunt, tons of torque and a low redline (4500-5000 rpm). 3.4 DOHC = high rpm horsepower, about the same as a stock 2.8 off the line, but from 3500 - 7000 rpm, it's on.

As always, your best bet is to try to get a ride in or drive a Fiero with the various engine options and see which one puts the biggest smile on your face. Then reconcile the smile factor with your budget.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-15-2007).]

Hmm.. maybe im thinking of something else then, ok thanks. After reading about it, i think this may be the swap for me, i love downshifting to hear the little 2.8 roar I think we can pretty much let this thread die as its gone off topic pretty much, and ive been told all i need to know for now. You'll probably hear from me again regarding this in a few months once i can get some cash..

The question regarding the cost of the engine still is unanswered though, if someone can give me a ballpark figure (not $1-$5000 to you wise guys out there lol)

edit: has anyone ever done a 3.4 DOHC with ITB's?

[This message has been edited by kawana (edited 11-15-2007).]

You should be able to find a running 3.4 DOHC for anywhere from $500 - $2000. Low mileage engines will be more, of course.

I've heard many people talk about a 3.4 with ITB, but I haven't seen it done yet. It would look incredible.

One tip - 96-97 have the best heads, but you'll have to make custom exhaust manifolds/headers. On 91-95 models, you can use two right side manifolds and flip one over to use on the other side, then make a custom y-pipe. The heads flow real well and the engines respond quite well to turbocharging, but there's very little aftermarket available for them. Most of it's going to have to be custom made.

Ok, I'm not going to question whether or not you should do it based on the time frame it will take, I have a different angle. I firmly do not believe it is a good idea to tackle an engine swap if you have no real prior experience with large upgrades or repairs. I'm 22 and I took my car off the road for a year to redo the V8 install onto 88 suspension. I can tell you now that I am so glad I didn't try to do it myself when I was 19 and had the engine installed. Even now, looking back, my skills have improved so much that I could do that whole job over again so much more effectively (considering time and money). All I can recommend is taking some time. Get your Fiero to an absolutely perfect condition in all other aspects and just drive the V6. Once your car is ready and you have a detailed knowledge about your cars internals, go for it.

------------------
Christian
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd, 88 suspension, C6 polished wheels, C5 Z06 brakes, Konis, poly'd, Spec Stg 3
301rwhp/345rwtq
Stovebolt Powered!!!!!
06 Cobalt SS/SC w/ LSD (the slow DD)

cool sound
Thsi is pretty much what a DOHC sounds like , at least mine does ..it would sound higher in pitch if I wasnt using turbo mufflers

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: Ok, I'm not going to question whether or not you should do it based on the time frame it will take, I have a different angle. I firmly do not believe it is a good idea to tackle an engine swap if you have no real prior experience with large upgrades or repairs. I'm 22 and I took my car off the road for a year to redo the V8 install onto 88 suspension. I can tell you now that I am so glad I didn't try to do it myself when I was 19 and had the engine installed. Even now, looking back, my skills have improved so much that I could do that whole job over again so much more effectively (considering time and money). All I can recommend is taking some time. Get your Fiero to an absolutely perfect condition in all other aspects and just drive the V6. Once your car is ready and you have a detailed knowledge about your cars internals, go for it.

the thing is, if i dont start, how will i ever learn? For example, awhile back i didn't know how to change plugs, i read and read but until i actually did it, i didn't know what i was dealing with. SInce then ive done all the plugs and wires in all out vehicles no problem. I like to learn but i do so best when its hands on, not books (or websites for that matter). Id be doing it off the car too, the v6 thats in it only has 150,000km/s so its gunna last a good while yet, so until i finish whatever swap i choose, i still have a good running car. I know i want to do a swap, and i dont want to pay a shop to do it. LIke i said, it'll just take time. It may take alot of time, but i can do it.

That's the right attitude.

I'd say start with a 3.4 pushrod swap as a warm up. Once your mechanical skills are advanced a bit, you'll start to see how big a job an engine swap like a Gen III/IV or Northstar is.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Swap completed October 2004. Just over 4000 miles. (summer driven only) At least 8 runs on a drag strip. Over 48 laps on two different road courses. Only problem I ever had while "performance driving" was this past October I ran on a road course the passenger rear coolant tube mounting bracket fell off due to a rusted bracket. I noticed the coolant tube hanging down after a run and I still drove it home without incident. I just replaced all the coolant tube brackets with new ones from the Fiero Store when I put it in storage for the winter.

orief is never wrong obviously the zz4 swap is the best bet.

Wait wasn't this thread about a ls1? I think I am missing something here oreif. I think even archie expressed concerns that a "kit" to swap a lsx is very hard to put together compared to the "adapter plate and mounts" kit that he has for a SBC swap.

quote from archies site The Price to upgrade to the LS1 Kit#2 level is $1064.00 Making the total kit cost to this point $ 4584.00. EXHAUST IS EXTRA

So add on the motor, and a transmission to this,

quote The price for the Master 6 Speed Conversion Kit is. $5121.00

ok now we are up $9700, and still need a motor/wiring/ecu/programming

motors have been found crate for $4000-6000, but I am going to be reallistic, and search car-part.com and get an idea. I found a a LS1 to average around $3000 for a complete one with reasonable mileage on it.

Ill say $500 for wiring and tuning, because I would want to buy HP tuners, and do everything myself, but most would opt for a "bolt in" harness and pcm, which runs for about that from painless.

so, on the LOW END for motor+6speed, doing it ALL YOURSELF we are looking at $13200 using kits, and still have to build an exhaust (which is I am sure greatly more expensive and complicated than a 3800's exhaust).

I still stand behind the fact you CAN do a 3800 swap using autozone for a few hundred bucks, you can buy a "mounting kit" for $300-400, a wiring harness and PCM for $400CDN, 1 coolant hose, an alternator bracket for $65, a belt for $23, a motor with ~90,000 miles on it for $1200 shipped to your door (I have purchased MANY MANY 3800's for 1/4 this cost, but I will just consider myself lucky), a 6speed trans kit is $5000, which subtracts the $400 for mounts, an auto is well, free or an extra few hundred when buying the motor.

so with a 6speed a 3800 swap on the high end will run you $2500 with an auto, or $7000 with a 6speed.

For a performance build up, a very reliable 350 crank horsepower can be done for well less than $3000 extra (if you are thrifty, you can cut this in 1/4's), which still keeps it in and around the LSx, and good for high 11's or low 12's in the quarter mile due to the insane power curve offered by a supercharged setup.

quote eaten quite a few auto transaxles including a 65eHD.

He has only killed 1 60e, and has never ever had a 65e near his car. There has not been one 3800 setup in a fiero that was setup for fast quarter mile times, X's was close, he just greatly missed the boat in the transmission/tuning department.

It wont be long until someone from my camp has a 10 second 3800 fiero around, though it wont be this upcoming season. Baby steps into 11's for awhile then on from there shortly after.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: orief darkhorizon is never wrong obviously the zz4 3800sc swap is the best bet. Wait wasn't this thread about a ls1?

Fixed that for you.

quote Originally posted by kawana: the thing is, if i dont start, how will i ever learn? For example, awhile back i didn't know how to change plugs, i read and read but until i actually did it, i didn't know what i was dealing with. SInce then ive done all the plugs and wires in all out vehicles no problem. I like to learn but i do so best when its hands on, not books (or websites for that matter). Id be doing it off the car too, the v6 thats in it only has 150,000km/s so its gunna last a good while yet, so until i finish whatever swap i choose, i still have a good running car. I know i want to do a swap, and i dont want to pay a shop to do it. LIke i said, it'll just take time. It may take alot of time, but i can do it.

I'm not saying 'don't do it', I'm just saying this is not the project to hone your skills. You seem pretty confident in yourself, so have at it I guess.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Just out of curiosity how much was your engine? What was the cost of the mods?? FieroX who if I recall correctly has dyno'd in the mid to upper 400hp range on his V-6 has eaten quite a few auto transaxles including a 65eHD. So I agree with your statement: Everyone builds there cars the way they want to suit their personality and thats what it is all about.

Well my 02 23K 3800SC engine was a whopping $750 from a local yard in the area. Throwing together a price list of the MODs I have in the motor come to around $2000 so thats a total of $2750 for a nicely modded 3800SC engine. To bump up the price even more, I will add in the matching 65E-HD trans with single chain gears/3K stall/4th hardened clutch for another $1000. So that brings up the total to $3750 for a nicely modded 3800SC with a trans that I can beat on to no end and not have to worry about it exploding. I have had my swap on the road for almost 2 years and have out around 13K on it, my Fiero is a DD as you can see.

Fiero X never used an 65E trans with his setup, he chose to use the older 60E trans and in the end paid for it by not being able to use his setup to its full potentional. I think the biggest problem I have is people doing high HP swaps and not using a trans that can hold the HP. Then those people coming into a Thread and saying a stock Fiero trans can hold the high HP/Torque of a V-8 swap. There is no way a stock Fiero trans can hold the HP/torque that even a stock LS1 can out out when running it to its full potentional. Can a stock Fiero trans be used on an LS1--sure you can get away with it. Can a stock Fiero trans be used on a LS1 and the motor be used to its full potentional--NO!!!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Fixed that for you.

LOL!!!!! You can take the horse to the river but you can't make him drink....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: There is no way a stock Fiero trans can hold the HP/torque that even a stock LS1 can out out when running it to its full potentional. Can a stock Fiero trans be used on an LS1--sure you can get away with it. Can a stock Fiero trans be used on a LS1 and the motor be used to its full potentional--NO!!!

Stock LS1 has 310 - 350 HP depending on application.
ZZ4 has 355 HP stock.
Orief's ZZ4 is using a stock Fiero transmission.

You'll have to discuss with him if he thinks he's getting it's "full potential."

I talked with some people on another forum i go on and they kinda swayed me from the 3.4, after talking with a friend of mine, he suggested the 3.8 N/A again, and turbo it. I think that is the route i will go, the 3.8's seem more common round here, so i think i could get more help for when i do it. Like i said, ill change my mind a billion times before i do it lol, this is change # 3/1,000,000,000. Only a few more to go before i make up my mind

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Stock LS1 has 310 - 350 HP depending on application. ZZ4 has 355 HP stock. Orief's ZZ4 is using a stock Fiero transmission. You'll have to discuss with him if he thinks he's getting it's "full potential."

I think his reply says it all:

Swap completed October 2004.
Just over 4000 miles. (summer driven only)
At least 8 runs on a drag strip.
Over 48 laps on two different road courses.

Thats about 1300 miles a year with probally about 6 miles of it being hard driving and 2 miles of it using the motor to its full potentional. But I dont want this to be anything torward one person. What are the dyno numbers on a ZZ4 on a manuel trans in a Fiero?

And Formula88--Have you ever done a swap into a Fiero? I dont ever remember seeing any type of build Thread on it if you have. Or is all that you speak of just from word of mouth and reading with no real time facts. Just wondering..

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I think his reply says it all: Swap completed October 2004. Just over 4000 miles. (summer driven only) At least 8 runs on a drag strip. Over 48 laps on two different road courses. Thats about 1300 miles a year with probally about 6 miles of it being hard driving and 2 miles of it using the motor to its full potentional. But I dont want this to be anything torward one person. What are the dyno numbers on a ZZ4 on a manuel trans in a Fiero?

Only 6 miles of hard driving??? More like 93.6 miles on the road course alone. You think that on a 1.95 mile road course I am not using the full potential of the engine? That somehow a road course is easier on a drivetrain than a 1/4 mile run? On a 1/4 mile run I shift 3 times in about 12.3 seconds, On a road course I am upshifting at WOT in the straights and downshifting in the corners for usually 2-3 laps at a time.

As for my Dyno, It was 309 rwhp and 356 torque.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: orief is never wrong obviously the zz4 swap is the best bet.

Where did you get that from?? I have never said one swap was any better or worse than another swap.
All I did here was compare the cost difference's of a 3800SC and a SBC. Never did I say one was better than the other,
Just that from a cost perspective there isn't a whole lot of difference.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: blah, blah, blah A 3800SC is the ONLY swap that makes sense. blah, blah, blah.

Whatever.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by kawana: I talked with some people on another forum i go on and they kinda swayed me from the 3.4, after talking with a friend of mine, he suggested the 3.8 N/A again, and turbo it. I think that is the route i will go, the 3.8's seem more common round here, so i think i could get more help for when i do it. Like i said, ill change my mind a billion times before i do it lol, this is change # 3/1,000,000,000. Only a few more to go before i make up my mind

I would like to suggest that before deciding on any swap that you get together with other local Fiero enthusiasts and see who has what swap and take a ride in their car.
This will give you a much better idea what you are looking for. Each swap actually makes the Fiero act / feel differently. A SBC with it's low-end torque will feel more like a "Hot Rod", a 3.4LDOHC will feel more like a european sports car with it's high RPM range, a 3800T / 3800SC will be very tame when driving normally and can produce a lot of power when needed.
Then there are other swaps like the 4.9L, Northstar, etc. Deciding on which swap is like deciding which car to buy, You should at least take a test ride in a few so you can get a feel for what you want.

3800SC catch fire. Try to insure that in a Fiero. LOL!!

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: 3800SC catch fire. Try to insure that in a Fiero. LOL!!

Lol, if i get that then people will be afriad to be within 5 feet of my car, cuz all fieros catch on fire, and if the 3800sc's do too... thats a recipe for an explosion or something!

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: And Formula88--Have you ever done a swap into a Fiero? I dont ever remember seeing any type of build Thread on it if you have. Or is all that you speak of just from word of mouth and reading with no real time facts. Just wondering..

No, I haven't. Not in a Fiero, at least. Not sure what you mean by "real time facts" though. Does the fact that I've not done a swap mean an LS1 doesn't have 350HP or a ZZ4 doesn't have 355HP?

If you only want "real time facts" from people who have done the swap - why are you talking about issues with an LS1 swap if you've not done one yourself?

Honestly you just put your foot in your mouth by posting that "fires" deal. The reason I get my motors cheap is usually because they are burn victims, due to failed plastic fuel lines in the engine compartment.

Another reason why 3800s are great, cheaper due to junkyards being full of burn victims.

i really wish we didnt get so snappy at eachother when discussing this sorta stuff, i really do enjoy poking around at what we all think is the best way to go. I just think we should try to stick to our own guns and not fiddle around in pointing out flaws in other peoples setups, and just talk our own up more. I am fairly sure I have just about as much experience with V8 stuff as orief has with supercharged V6 stuff, so why are we acting like we have an authority to comment on each others setups? I will admit that I am guilty of it, but I dont think oreif can say he isnt a bit guilty too.

I think we all can agree that no engine swap is simple, nor "cheap" if you dont have a drive to do it cheap. I am sure I set out to do a V8 swap, i could get it done for near what I did my 3800 swaps for, just because thats the way I do things. I suppose I just never developed the attraction to V8's that alot of the older guys around here had. My idea of a hotrod is a GTP, while they were just daily driver cars back in the older days of fieros.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I suppose I just never developed the attraction to V8's that alot of the older guys around here had. My idea of a hotrod is a GTP, while they were just daily driver cars back in the older days of fieros.

Why can't we all just get along?? I don't know why people get so personal over engine swaps.

But yeah a lot of us older guy remember when a V6 engine was the compromise engine that you got if you didn't have the bucks for the V8...remember the firebird came with a 3800 and a V8. Granted it wasn't a supercharged 3800, but even if it was, the LS1 was making more power at the time.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Why can't we all just get along?? I don't know why people get so personal over engine swaps. .

I can get along with anyone but I get bored and like to talk smack to pass the time. Like I have said many times before, do what engine swap suits your needs.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: its a FWD engine, it never came coupled to a camaro. itcould be found in lumina z34's, montecarlo SS's, perhaps some other cars, im not sure what else had it, pontiac grand prix's maybe? from '91-'95

To clarify, Gen IV Camaros were available with a 3.4L V6 and later a 3800 V6 - The 3.4L however was not the DOHC version.

I agree with most of the posts suggesting we like to talk about what we have.
I've never posted in an engine swap thread before because debating the best swap is fruitless.
I do think people are likely to choose used engines that came in cars that they dreamed about when they were younger.
They were cars we probably couldn't afford at the time but made good power for the year they were produced.

For me, I asked everyone advice on what to get before I started.
At the time LT1's were becoming very popular while LS1's were still cost prohibitive for me.
I was able to buy a complete engine, ECM and harness for $700 privately while the average salvage yard wanted $2,500K.
I remember the guy had 25 calls for the motor and I drove an hour and was the second guy there and bought it immediately.

Do I wish I waited and had an LSx engine?
Not really, since they only made the LT1 from 92-97 so eventually it will be a more unique swap in a Fiero.

BTW-I love 3800SC's and Northstars too - I just decided that I wanted to squeeze a SBC V8 in that would let even the average joe's ear realize I am not running the stock motor.

Check out swaps in engine bays and let all your senses help you decide - here's a sweet series I 3800SC:




Here's my LT1 before and after Nitrous:






Cheers,
Ryan

------------------

1986 Fiero2m8 (LT1 NX / 4T60 Roadster Build)
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/071642.html

quote Originally posted by Fiero2m8: I agree with most of the posts suggesting we like to talk about what we have. ... I do think people are likely to choose used engines that came in cars that they dreamed about when they were younger. Cheers, Ryan

I've never owned any car with an LSx motor...but I sure would like to. But I've been dreaming of a Corvette since I was a kid, so an LSx motor would be just the ticket.

wSoo basicly what your all saying (from the best i can guess from all the posts)
Is that the LS1 and 3800sc swaps cost about the same if i shop around, are fairly close in difficulty, it sounds like the LS1's and LS2's would have a little more help available, the LS1 would have better after market? So, i guess it really boils down to personal preference and driving needs.... Is it fair to say that under normal circumstances either of these swaps cant be done for under $5000? (thats meaning that you dont find a really really great deal that you just cant refuse). Which would be easier to make into a 5spd? I hear that the 3800sc is harder but i forget why they said that.

edit: Ive pretty well given up on the idea of a 6spd for now, just cuz of the cost difference. The extra gear isn't worth the extra $$ to me.

[This message has been edited by kawana (edited 11-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by kawana: So, i guess it really boils down to personal preference and driving needs....

Exactly...this is the bottom line of all swaps. Me, personally, I want to love the 3800sc but the sound turns me off. At idle they sound decent, but once you get on them they sound like a V8 with two cylinders missing, which is basically what a 90 degree V6 really is.

quote Originally posted by kawana: wSoo basicly what your all saying (from the best i can guess from all the posts) Is that the LS1 and 3800sc swaps cost about the same if i shop around, are fairly close in difficulty, it sounds like the LS1's and LS2's would have a little more help available, the LS1 would have better after market? So, i guess it really boils down to personal preference and driving needs.... Is it fair to say that under normal circumstances either of these swaps cant be done for under $5000? (thats meaning that you dont find a really really great deal that you just cant refuse). Which would be easier to make into a 5spd? I hear that the 3800sc is harder but i forget why they said that. edit: Ive pretty well given up on the idea of a 6spd for now, just cuz of the cost difference. The extra gear isn't worth the extra $$ to me.

NO--The LSX swap is going to cost you more money in the end being the cost of an LSX motor is much higher.
I would say there is more aftermarket foe the LSX engine but there is enough aftermarket out there for the 3800 to get them into the low 9s.
There would proablly be more help avaliable and information for the 3800 being these swaps are being done everyday now.
I listed the cost of my swap in another post above with the total for my modded 3800 with 65E trans and it is well under $5k

Just pick whatever you think you can afford and if you dont like it, then sell it.

if you go with a v8, your wasting 1500 or more on an adapter plate. if you didnt need an adapter, you would see a lot more v8's in a fiero. the money i saved from not buying a "kit", i used to get a complete 3800sc. plus, they fit in the engine bay a lot nicer, no need to cut frame rails, strut towers, or have water pumps hanging through the wheel well, etc


do what you want, i was stuck for a while between sbc/3800 and those reasons above are why i finally decided for the 3800

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I listed the cost of my swap in another post above with the total for my modded 3800 with 65E trans and it is well under $5k

Archie did a V-8 swap using used parts for under $4000.

The cost of any swap is based on the cost of the parts and with Ebay, local junk yards, and such you can buy nearly everything used if you are trying to do it with the least amount of cost.

Personally I feel that the cost is not as important as doing the swap right. Regardless what engine you swap, You want to at least make sure that you don't skimp on quality or reliability just to save a few bucks.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: i really wish we didnt get so snappy at eachother when discussing this sorta stuff, i really do enjoy poking around at what we all think is the best way to go. I just think we should try to stick to our own guns and not fiddle around in pointing out flaws in other peoples setups, and just talk our own up more. I am fairly sure I have just about as much experience with V8 stuff as orief has with supercharged V6 stuff, so why are we acting like we have an authority to comment on each others setups? I will admit that I am guilty of it, but I dont think oreif can say he isnt a bit guilty too.

I think you have been misunderstanding my posts. You keep stating how your 3800SC swap costed so little and that a V-8 is a lot more expensive. I am just trying to show that cost of any swap is subjective to how you want to do it. I have not pointed out any flaws in anyone's swap. You have been using your 3800SC swap as a comparison and I have been using my V-8. That is not to be taken as me saying one swap is better than the other.

While it is true I have not done a 3800SC swap into a Fiero, I have built up a 3800SC for a friends Monte Carlo and as soon as we finish the install and tune it should be in the high 300's to low 400's horsepower. I can tell you right now that the amount it cost just to build the engine was close to $3000 in parts and machine work. (it was the original engine in the car that we started with)

Again, Cost of ANY swap is subjective to how you want to do it. As for what swap is best, The best swap is what the owner prefers.

quote Originally posted by Hurricane: i used to get a complete 3800sc. plus, they fit in the engine bay a lot nicer, no need to cut frame rails, strut towers, or have water pumps hanging through the wheel well, etc

Your statement implies that it is a requirement of the SBC install to cut frame rails, strut towers or have waterpumps hanging through the wheel well.

The fact of the matter is that just is not true. Sure there are examples out there that have done those mods, but it is not a requirement of the swap but strictly a choice on how to do the swap. The SBC installed in my 88 fiero is free of cuts/dents of any frame rail/wheel well/strut tower sheet metal for the engine to fit (and I run a mechanical belt driven waterpump).

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: NO--The LSX swap is going to cost you more money in the end being the cost of an LSX motor is much higher. I would say there is more aftermarket foe the LSX engine but there is enough aftermarket out there for the 3800 to get them into the low 9s. There would proablly be more help avaliable and information for the 3800 being these swaps are being done everyday now. I listed the cost of my swap in another post above with the total for my modded 3800 with 65E trans and it is well under $5k Just pick whatever you think you can afford and if you dont like it, then sell it.

Are these your real time facts from having done an LS1 swap in a Fiero yourself?

///////////////////Archie did a V-8 swap using used parts for under $4000.

The cost of any swap is based on the cost of the parts and with Ebay, local junk yards, and such you can buy nearly everything used if you are trying to do it with the least amount of cost.////////////////////


But it was not an LS1 V-8 swap, which is what this whole Thread is about. You keep being up old school carbed V-8 swaps which make it alot cheaper being the SBC motors are cheap. Also as you stated "Archie" did the swap and not the common person so alot of the parts where cheaper for him.

Then look at the end results of what he got for $4K compared to what I got for $4K. I am willing to bet my car beats his car handsdown in every category there is out there. Not to mention my car is a daily driver with HP that still gets 28 MPG.