I think it is hilarious that people are mad about this, claiming Adams and Springsteen are "bullies". But, really, aren't Adams and Springsteen simply exercising their right not to do business in places that go against their "sincerely held beliefs"? Ah... the irony!
so bryan adams cancels a show in Mississippi where he says they discriminate against the lgbt community and does not cancel a show in Egypt where they execute people in the lgbt community.
so bryan adams cancels a show in Mississippi where he says they discriminate against the lgbt community and does not cancel a show in Egypt where they execute people in the lgbt community.
Probably because the people in Mississippi can actually do something about their government, so canceling a concert might push them towards electing different representatives.
Canceling a show in Egypt doesn't do anything besides punish the people who can't change anything about their government.
LGBTs have many compelling reasons to "stay closeted" in Egypt, but to say that "Egypt is a country where LGBTs can be executed" (~gtjoe) is misleading. There is no basis in what currently passes for "law" in Egypt for that statement. That's going overboard.
Here's a fairly recent backgrounder from CNN:
Homosexuality is not mentioned in the Egyptian penal code, and technically it is not illegal, but members of the LGBT community are often arrested and charged with pornography, prostitution or debauchery.
At least 20 homosexual and transgender persons were convicted of debauchery and other charges in 2014, which human rights activists say has been the worst year for the community in recent memory.
Fear of arrest and social stigma force the majority of the LGBT community to conceal their identity and sexual orientation.
This does not go so far as to erase the gap between Mississippi and Egypt (in terms of how LGBTs are treated), but it does narrow the gap. Enough (IMO) to transform this line of argument--which is meant to lay charges of hypocrisy or inconsistency against these "music men"--from the sharpness of a surgeon's scalpel into the mediocre edge of a low quality pocketknife.
(QED)
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-11-2016).]
LGBTs have many compelling reasons to "stay closeted" in Egypt, but to say that "Egypt is a country where LGBTs can be executed" (~gtjoe) is misleading. There is no basis in what currently passes for "law" in Egypt for that statement. That's going overboard.
Here's a fairly recent backgrounder from CNN:
Homosexuality is not mentioned in the Egyptian penal code, and technically it is not illegal, but members of the LGBT community are often arrested and charged with pornography, prostitution or debauchery.
At least 20 homosexual and transgender persons were convicted of debauchery and other charges in 2014, which human rights activists say has been the worst year for the community in recent memory.
Fear of arrest and social stigma force the majority of the LGBT community to conceal their identity and sexual orientation.
This does not go so far as to erase the gap between Mississippi and Egypt (in terms of how LGBTs are treated), but it does narrow the gap. Enough (IMO) to transform this line of argument--which is meant to lay charges of hypocrisy or inconsistency against these "music men"--from the sharpness of a surgeon's scalpel into the mediocre edge of a low quality pocketknife.
(QED)
Based on your obvious "vast knowledge" on the issue isn't it time for you to get yourself over there in person and start helping your spiritual brothers and sisters and _________ out with your "special talents".
I think it is hilarious that people are mad about this, claiming Adams and Springsteen are "bullies". But, really, aren't Adams and Springsteen simply exercising their right not to do business in places that go against their "sincerely held beliefs"? Ah... the irony!
"The Boss explained that he is against the controversial law, which dictates the bathrooms transgender people can use and restricts when LGBT citizens can sue when their human rights are violated in the workplace.
Springsteen wrote, “To my mind, it’s an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all our citizens to overturn that progress.” Bruce concluded his letter stating, “Some things are more important than a rock show ....”
Pssst, Hey Brucie. There are LOT of things that are more important than a rock show, but if you think that where "Chester the Cross Dresser" takes a dump is one of them, then maybe you ought to NOT cancel your shows and invite them all to use your private dressing room toilet.
Nothing more tedious than a millionaire musician who thinks we all *need* his opinion.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-12-2016).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: This does not go so far as to erase the gap between Mississippi and Egypt (in terms of how LGBTs are treated), but it does narrow the gap. Enough (IMO) to transform this line of argument--which is meant to lay charges of hypocrisy or inconsistency against these "music men"--from the sharpness of a surgeon's scalpel into the mediocre edge of a low quality pocketknife.
(QED)
Not even in the slightest. Both are hypocrites and we know it. Your weak argument looks like a bad attempt at deflection from the obvious.
This does not go so far as to erase the gap between Mississippi and Egypt (in terms of how LGBTs are treated), but it does narrow the gap. Enough (IMO) to transform this line of argument--which is meant to lay charges of hypocrisy or inconsistency against these "music men"--from the sharpness of a surgeon's scalpel into the mediocre edge of a low quality pocketknife.
If past posts are any indication, I suspect it would take a very very tiny (think microscopic) move toward the middle of the 2 to satisfy (IYO) narrowing that gap. Whether called homophobic legislation in Mississippi or the same proverbial rose called by the name debauchery in Sisi's Egypt, the results are the same, except in Egypt, people are being arrested, publicly ridiculed, and prosecuted with full approval if not out right directives from the Egyptian govt. http://www.nytimes.com/2015...wn-on-gays.html?_r=0 http://www.independent.co.u...cution-10256869.html http://www.thedailybeast.co...ng-egypt-s-gays.html
quote
Around 150 men this year have been arrested or are on trial in connection with homosexuality, the highest number in more than a decade, said Scott Long, an American activist and researcher on gay rights. He said this is the worst year since 2001, when police raided a Nile boat restaurant and arrested 52 men accused of holding a gay party. This year,[2014] police have made arrests nearly every month, sometimes in raids on houses, said Long, who tracks such incidents.
I'm sick of the LGBT "community" whining. I'm sick of every "community" whining. Making laws against them is also disgusting. Why doesn't everyone shut the **** up and mind their own business and leave each other the **** alone? Who really gives a **** where their neighbor puts their dick? Does it somehow affect you? No? didn't think so. ****tarded entire world needs to be nuked.
Originally posted by Threedog: Probably because the people in Mississippi can actually do something about their government, so canceling a concert might push them towards electing different representatives. Canceling a show in Egypt doesn't do anything besides punish the people who can't change anything about their government.
A lucid observation, and one that should not be overlooked or lost track of.
Even if the "music men" who performed in Egypt but refused to perform in Mississippi are hypocritical or one-eyed in this regard, I will not fall in line with careless and misleading statements; particularly the errant declaration that gays or LGBTs are "executed" in Egypt. The temperament or the strong implication of that wording is that LGBTs in Egypt are routinely hauled before judges in Egypt and formally sentenced to capital punishment. There's just no wiggle room in the way that this statement was worded and interjected into the discussion.
That is clearly not the situation that is described by my fairly recent backgrounder from CNN. "Persecution" is not a synonym for "execution". These two realities certainly overlap or converge in certain scenarios around the world, but anyone who reads the CNN backgrounder with an iota of intelligence sees that in Egypt, this is not the common or prevailing scenario. LGBT's can expect serious persecution in Egypt, but it stops well short of being formally sentenced to death for "LGBT-ism" by an Egyptian court or judge.
RandyWasThereBefore vs CNN..? It's a no brainer. If the esteemed representative from New Port Richey were anywhere near as credible as the (admittedly) less-than-perfect CNN, he would either debunk the CNN backgrounder--that's not going to happen--or he would be taking at least as much issue with the errant statement about Egypt as he "invested" in this latest attempt to lampoon me and to twist and distort what I posted in the effort to create a straw man that has not even a passing resemblance to what I posted.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-12-2016).]
Those are copout excuses for why Bryan adams will perform in Egypt but not Mississippi. He is doing it for one reason and one reason alone. PUBLICITY. hes jumping the bandwagon, to get himself some press, and it worked . No one here would even remember he existed before this article.
This will probably have WAY more influence than 2 over the hill entertainers.
[url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/12/**** -giant-is-latest-to-place-a-ban-on-a-southern-state-in-protest-of-an-anti-lgbt-law/]We'll deprive them of their nekkid internet movies[/url]
(link messed up because it contains a forbidden word--sorry)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-12-2016).]
I think this version works. Nothing tricky on my part. I used "**** giant" to Google my way to the article on WaPo. Just copied the browser URL and pasted it here.
Based on your obvious "vast knowledge" on the issue isn't it time for you to get yourself over there in person and start helping your spiritual brothers and sisters and _________ out with your "special talents".
The thing is, if there obviously are "LGBT" folks in Mississippi, they are punishing them by not having a concert there aren't they? Its not like "LGBT" people are banned from attending the concert if there was one.
Also, people can go to the next state over for a concert its really not accomplishing much.
Just to be clear, I did not make my stage entrance here in order to mount a strong argument in favor of the two "music men" and their "boycott" of Mississippi. I could agree, yeah, there could well be a mostly phony-baloney aspect to this "No Show" act by the two performers. Springsteen and the other one, which I actually don't know from "Adam".
I came in here to dispute the statement that LGBT's are routinely subject to "execution" in Egypt; "routinely"--that's how I parse the statement that was made. I think I have debunked that statement, and on my scorecard (pending further developments, which is a phrase that could be used in almost any context and at any moment) that's the way it stands. I don't anticipate that anyone is going to come in here and be effective in undermining my debunking of that statement about Egypt.
I'm sick of the LGBT "community" whining. I'm sick of every "community" whining. Making laws against them is also disgusting. Why doesn't everyone shut the **** up and mind their own business and leave each other the **** alone? Who really gives a **** where their neighbor puts their dick? Does it somehow affect you? No? didn't think so. ****tarded entire world needs to be nuked.
Just to be clear, I did not make my stage entrance here in order to mount a strong argument in favor of the two "music men" and their "boycott" of Mississippi. I could agree, yeah, there could well be a mostly phony-baloney aspect to this "No Show" act by the two performers. Springsteen and the other one, which I actually don't know from "Adam".
I came in here to dispute the statement that LGBT's are routinely subject to "execution" in Egypt; "routinely"--that's how I parse the statement that was made. I think I have debunked that statement, and on my scorecard (pending further developments, which is a phrase that could be used in almost any context and at any moment) that's the way it stands. I don't anticipate that anyone is going to come in here and be effective in undermining my debunking of that statement about Egypt.
Confusion happens.
may i ask why it is important to you to "keep score"? Is there something in your personality that requires it in all aspects or just in your internet maven persona? not rhetorical.
Originally posted by rinselberg: I will not fall in line with careless and misleading statements; particularly the errant declaration that gays or LGBTs are "executed" in Egypt. The temperament or the strong implication of that wording is that LGBTs in Egypt are routinely hauled before judges in Egypt and formally sentenced to capital punishment.
You're right, they don't get capital punishment. They're hauled before judges and sentenced to jail time, where they're beaten and tortured. So I guess as long as people aren't being killed while they're being oppressed, it's all good?
Maybe he's worked Mississippi before over the years and simply has no desire to relive the experience. A little MS goes a long way towards satisfying one's need for exposure to "Southern Heritage". I could understand his reluctance but using yet another discriminatory law in the South as an excuse is a bit disingenuous IMO.
Why not just say "I can't stomach another backstage 'meet-and-greet' in Biloxi?" In that case, a lot of non-Mississippians would certain empathise.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-12-2016).]
Originally posted by Blacktree: You're right, they don't get capital punishment. They're hauled before judges and sentenced to jail time, where they're beaten and tortured. So I guess as long as people aren't being killed while they're being oppressed, it's all good?
Thanks, I always like it when someone comes along and "puts words in my mouth".
There's a difference between "persecuted" and "executed".
If they are being persecuted--and this is what I believe is the case in Egypt--the El Presidente (el-Sisi) has at least the possibility of stopping it--or more realistically, cutting it down to "size"--without going through the formalities of having to get what passes for a "House of Representatives" to change what they already have written down as Egyptian national law.
If they were actually being executed--hauled into courtrooms that are presided over by what passes for "duly appointed" judges (with the Egyptian national flag on the wall) and there is a declaration from the judge that goes "You have been indicted and convicted of violating Egyptian national law #33874, prohibition of homosexual conduct (or prohibition of some other LGBT 'thing'). The range of penalties as provided for in #33874 includes the death penalty, and that is the sentence that I deem is apropos in this case. I sentence you to hanging by the neck until you are dead,"--that would be an even BIGGER problem.
If this were actually the ground truth in Egypt, the El Presidente could not merely wave his hands and use his "good offices" in order to cut this monster down to size. He would have to do whatever it takes to get the Egyptian national laws about this "stuff" reworked and reworded. Doable, but it would require even more of an effort from the El Presidente--assuming he would actually decide to try to clean up this "act".
I don't believe (based on what I have seen online) that LGBTs are actually being executed like that in Egypt.
So, this distinction that I have worked at such length to present here, in this discussion, with this post and the ones that I posted here before--no small distinction. This is not a distinction without a difference. This is Kind of a Big Deal. This is like Budweiser. It's not backing down. It's not for everyone. It's for the "Illuminati".
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-12-2016).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: Thanks, I always like it when someone comes along and "puts words in my mouth".
I made an assumption based on the lack of words, on your part, regarding the actual plight of gays and lesbians in Egypt. You're spending a lot of effort trying to discount what gtjoe said, but literally said nothing about the actual plight of gays and lesbians in Egypt until I "called you out" on it.
Just to clarify, when someone says something wrong it's customary to say they're wrong and then tell them what the correct answer is. You didn't do that. You omitted the fact that gays and lesbians are being oppressed in Egypt. Whether intentional or not, you basically told a half-truth.
And that was the point of my previous post.
Edit to add: the irony here is that the meaning of gtjoe's statement was lost in a cloud of obfuscation. His point was the fact that gays and lesbians are being treated far worse in Egypt than in Mississippi. Let's see if you can refute that.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-12-2016).]
OK, "blacktree". Point acknowledged. I thought I covered that when I posted the title of "my" CNN backgrounder, "Living in fear: Egypt's gay community". Maybe not.
quote
Originally posted by maryjane: may i ask why it is important to you to "keep score"? Is there something in your personality that requires it in all aspects or just in your internet maven persona? not rhetorical.
Good question. Great question.
I think (now that I think about it) that this is one of my "core" personality traits. It doesn't "bug" me all that much when the things that I post are not greeted with any kind of general consent or agreement--seldom, I think, does that ever happen here--but I don't ever want to leave one of these discussions with the feeling that I have been outdone in terms of logic, or structure, or presentation. I want to leave these discussions with the feeling (on my part) that I presented the best possible argument in support of my specific point or conclusion (observation, thesis, agenda, inference... etc.)
It's very much the same way for the "real life" rinselberg.
Could I dig down deeper than that, in terms of my personality? That is "it", but can I get to the "why" of it..?
Life history and genetics.
I competed the four-year undergraduate college thing. Neither of my parents were college graduates, but in terms of the family, the neighborhood, the city (a close suburb of St Louis)... all about the "academics". All about "school". And getting even halfway serious about any kind of sport, or guitar'ing as part of a homegrown rock band--nah. That didn't count for anything in that enviro. Not for me, and not for anyone in my peer group. Not on the menu.
My father wasn't a college graduate, but he was in the Army and later the Army Air Force during "TWO". He rose to the top of the non-commissioned officer level. He did some kind of training and classroom for that. Great Lakes facility, I think. School for non-commissioned officers, I guess. Something along those lines. Clerical tasks, bookkeeping, paperwork, logistics, office management type stuff. Not a "weapons" specialist of any kind.
My mother--high school graduate. Nothing in the way of add-ons beyond that.
My uncle (on my mother's side) was basically integrated into the nuclear family. He did complete the four-year college thing. Maybe that was all or partly after he came out of the Navy. He was non-commissioned, electronics tech towards the end of "TWO". Worked as a chemical engineer. Mostly in the testing cycle. Testing different products. He definitely had an influence on me.
Father--drafted into the Army. Uncle--I think he probably enlisted, with an eye towards the training and vocational (schooling) aspects of it. Not really certain.
Are there clues here, about the "scorecard" thing? I hope so.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-12-2016).]
If you and Jaskispyder were locked in a room together, would you guys go back and forth with argument until your heads exploded?
?? Actually, I would focus in the bigger issue.... the fact that I am locked in a room. Hmmm. As for states... if the people support the legislation, then other people can also choose where to do business. Paypal recently changed expansion plans because of similar issues.
OK, "blacktree". Point acknowledged. I thought I covered that when I posted the title of "my" CNN backgrounder, "Living in fear: Egypt's gay community". Maybe not.
Fair enough. I don't want to be a total prick. Or is it too late for that?
State action or an action by any person based on state action shall not burden a person's right to exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, unless it is demonstrated that applying the burden to that person's exercise of religion in that particular instance is both of the following:
(i) Essential to further a compelling governmental interest;
(ii) The least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.
The law goes on to define "Exercise of religion"
quote
"Exercise of religion" means the practice or observance of religion. "Exercise of religion" includes, but is not limited to, the ability to act or the refusal to act in a manner that is substantially motivated by one's sincerely held religious belief, whether or not the exercise is compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief.
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America:
quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
The Constitution should be sufficient. It is a crying shame that an additional law must be written to insure the protection already guaranteed in The US Constitution.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 04-12-2016).]
...As for states... if the people support the legislation, then other people can also choose where to do business. Paypal recently changed expansion plans because of similar issues.
More loony leftie double standard eh?
Bruce Springsteen and Bryan Adams get to follow their conscience, but the cake baker and wedding florist don’t?
Leftists want to deny the rights of bakers, florists, photographers, adoption agencies and marriage counselors who only want the same liberty to follow their conscience.
Nope... unlike bakers/florists, they are not denying select individuals access to their music. Apples and oranges.
quote
Originally posted by randye:
More loony leftie double standard eh?
Bruce Springsteen and Bryan Adams get to follow their conscience, but the cake baker and wedding florist don’t?
Leftists want to deny the rights of bakers, florists, photographers, adoption agencies and marriage counselors who only want the same liberty to follow their conscience.
Single Sex Multiple Occupancy Bathroom and Changing Facilities
Local boards of education shall require every multiple occupancy bathroom or changing facility that is designated for student use to be designated for and used only by students based on their biological sex.
The law defines "Multiple occupancy bathroom or changing facility" thusly:
quote
A facility designed or designated to be used by more than one person at a time where students may be in various states of undress in the presence of other persons. A multiple occupancy bathroom or changing facility may include, but is not limited to, a school restroom, locker room, changing room, or shower room.
So, this law prevents males from walking into the girl's shower room. Again, it is a shame that common sense and human decency must be codified by law. But a few are demanding that the right of privacy of the majority be denied in order to satisfy their own perverse desires.
